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Reply #30 posted 09/11/17 8:43am

mjscarousal

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The point is women from all over the world loved Michael, period. Ya'll always focus on small petty things and negate the whole point of a post. Races, ethnics, nationalities, culture, backgrounds, etc whatever you want to call it the point is still the same.

[Edited 9/11/17 8:45am]

Stand, you`ve been sitting much too long, there`s a permanent crease in your right or wrong.~Sly Stone
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Reply #31 posted 09/11/17 10:54am

alphastreet

laurarichardson said:

PatrickS77 said:
Yes. It is you. Your hate for Michael is really bordering on the creepy. Obviously millions of fans found him good looking throughout his career. Back in Germany in the nineties he repeatedly was on and won the poll conducted by Bravo, the biggest german speaking youth magazine, for best looking singer.
That is Germany were they belived David Hasselloff is hot. I am not the one who put up this topic that the MJ of the 90s who looked like an old white women was attractive looking in the face. Something is creepy if you do not see how he fucked up his beautiful face and I know I am not the only one who thinks this.

I remember hearing about this, in about 97 or something like that, which was mindblowing cause he was not considered that in north america at the time

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Reply #32 posted 09/11/17 2:22pm

MotownSubdivis
ion

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alphastreet said:

laurarichardson said:

PatrickS77 said: That is Germany were they belived David Hasselloff is hot. I am not the one who put up this topic that the MJ of the 90s who looked like an old white women was attractive looking in the face. Something is creepy if you do not see how he fucked up his beautiful face and I know I am not the only one who thinks this.

I remember hearing about this, in about 97 or something like that, which was mindblowing cause he was not considered that in north america at the time

It blows my mind to but facts are facts, women worldwide (including America) still thought Mike was hot in the 90s and beyond. And I'm not talking in the sense that he had an aura about him (though he had that to) but in the sense of physical attraction. Even if one is "caught up in the moment", nobody is going to thrust themselves upon someone they don't consider attractive and plenty of women did that. Trying to say that because that wasn't the consensus among most women in America that Mike wasn't hot is moving goalposts. Whether it's here in the states or overseas in Germany, women thought he was hot.

Shoot, one of my friends straight up said with conviction she thought he was sexy at any point in his adult life.

Also, laura are you really trying to convince yourself that women didn't find David Hassellhoff attractive in an attempt to say that no woman thought Mike was attractive from the 90s to his death? How...? You could've said Ed Sheeran and the comparison would have worked better but you chose to go with a classically handsome man in David Hassellhoff instead?

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Reply #33 posted 09/11/17 3:02pm

alphastreet

MotownSubdivision said:

alphastreet said:

I remember hearing about this, in about 97 or something like that, which was mindblowing cause he was not considered that in north america at the time

It blows my mind to but facts are facts, women worldwide (including America) still thought Mike was hot in the 90s and beyond. And I'm not talking in the sense that he had an aura about him (though he had that to) but in the sense of physical attraction. Even if one is "caught up in the moment", nobody is going to thrust themselves upon someone they don't consider attractive and plenty of women did that. Trying to say that because that wasn't the consensus among most women in America that Mike wasn't hot is moving goalposts. Whether it's here in the states or overseas in Germany, women thought he was hot.

Shoot, one of my friends straight up said with conviction she thought he was sexy at any point in his adult life.

Also, laura are you really trying to convince yourself that women didn't find David Hassellhoff attractive in an attempt to say that no woman thought Mike was attractive from the 90s to his death? How...? You could've said Ed Sheeran and the comparison would have worked better but you chose to go with a classically handsome man in David Hassellhoff instead?

I do know people who still thought he looked nice in the 90's, and was stylish, but I guess I was referring to print media. Maybe in the 80's he would be on those type of lists but in the 90's, not really known as a sex symbol

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Reply #34 posted 09/11/17 3:26pm

OzlemUcucu

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laurarichardson said:

mjscarousal said:

Michael could have had ANY woman he wanted, make no mistake about that and you are delusional to think otherwise. He could have had Madonna, Naomi, Chilli, and of course we know he slept Diana Ross.

He was ranked in the 80's as most sexiest in America and in Europe many times.

He is actually ranked number one on this list

https://www.thetoptens.com/sexiest-men-80s-90s/

Its bizarre to you because you don't find him attractive but that doesn't mean he was not a symbol or was considered sexy to other women....he was.

Image result for michael jackson fan gif

Image result for michael jackson fan gif

Image result for michael jackson fan gif

Image result for michael jackson fan gif

Image result for michael jackson fan gif

Michael said that when he picked these women on stage that they would whisper sexual things in his ear like "I want to fuck you, I want to have sex with you, will let me"

I don't think someone is going to whisper that into a stranger's ear if they are not sexually attracted to them.... I am just saying. All of them are lucky heffas, all up on my man. razz

ALSO, he did not choose to have kids with Debbie. Debbied offered to have his kids when Lisa wouldn't and Debbie had been offering for years (MJ declined for years). Michael was vunerable and desperately wanted children and was hurt after Lisa lied to him about bearing his children. The marriage with Debbie was obviously contractual. That is not a good example. Both those marriages should not be used as examples of women interest in him and just because you don't know about his private relationships doesn't mean women weren't interested. Based on his close colleages and people that worked with him, its evident MJ dated and sometimes more than one woman at the same time. He also asked women before Lisa to marry him but they declined. One of the women he asked during the BAD era was a African woman. Well that is your personal opinion, I have always been sexually attracted to Michael at every era (excludng when he was a minor of course). Im not easy but I would drop my panties in a milisecond for Michael and there are billions of other women who would do the same and PROBABLY did LOL

These are hysterical fans caught up in the moment and some looking for a check. I do not care if he approached her or she offered take a look at her and take a look at these women on stage. Look who he had kids with it was not a young attractive groupie girl. We have no hoard of actual lady friends that MJ actually dated. If you think a pasty face man is attractive outside of his wealth then that is fine for you but I can guarantee you Mike was never going to make a sexy male entertainer list. Billions of women were not lusting after him if so they need to get their eyes examined. [Edited 9/8/17 20:06pm]

LOL Laura I love your straight talk. Nothing compares to Prince's manly sexiness. MJ could beg me to touch his ugly ass and I wouldn't. He is horrible that white-ish strange look. Prince on the other hand is sex.

Prince I will always miss and love U.
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Reply #35 posted 09/11/17 3:50pm

PatrickS77

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OzlemUcucu said:

laurarichardson said:

mjscarousal said: These are hysterical fans caught up in the moment and some looking for a check. I do not care if he approached her or she offered take a look at her and take a look at these women on stage. Look who he had kids with it was not a young attractive groupie girl. We have no hoard of actual lady friends that MJ actually dated. If you think a pasty face man is attractive outside of his wealth then that is fine for you but I can guarantee you Mike was never going to make a sexy male entertainer list. Billions of women were not lusting after him if so they need to get their eyes examined. [Edited 9/8/17 20:06pm]

LOL Laura I love your straight talk. Nothing compares to Prince's manly sexiness. MJ could beg me to touch his ugly ass and I wouldn't. He is horrible that white-ish strange look. Prince on the other hand is sex.


LOL right. Because Prince was the epitome of manliness. And dark. Boy was that brother dark. Geez.

Prince-1994-3.jpg


Slave.jpg



95b5888fdfd2abb2bcb12f81078cf0cdac326be1.jpg


Are we talking about this ^^^ Prince? Pot, meet Kettle.

Seriously, I think you'll find just as many women running away screaming from Michael, as you find running away screaming from Prince. Both of them weren't conventional looking, but both of them had women, who thought they were sexy as hell and/or thought they looked creepy as hell. I have heard both from women, when it came to them.

[Edited 9/11/17 16:32pm]

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Reply #36 posted 09/11/17 4:22pm

ThatWhiteDude

That's exactly that type of shit I meant when I was talking about bashin other artists. This is a freakin MJ Thread where his Fans can talk about why they think he looked great in the 90's. Why do some Prince Fans feel the need to come over just to make fun and destroy the joy of that Thread?

I am not the biggest MJ Fan on earth and I got my opinion on his surgery, but I don't go over here to throw in their faces.

Dig if you will the picture, of me and Marvin Gaye with the kids.
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Reply #37 posted 09/11/17 10:19pm

Free2BMe

mjscarousal said:

She is not giving an opinion. She is just flat out wrong. She is saying no woman found MJ attractive and that is a lie! These gifs and photos show that was not true. All those women were from different races, Black, White, Hispanic, German, etc and they all loved Michael. All these women grabbed him and kissed him and was rubbing all over him and Laura steady saying they weren't attracted lol If they weren't attracted, why were they kissing him? Why were they whispering they wanted to have sex in his ear?



Yes, she IS wrong. There is proof to prove that she IS wrong.
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Reply #38 posted 09/11/17 10:46pm

mjscarousal

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Very good looking man with a beautiful smile and beautiful heart heart

His physique is underrated imo. During the 90s, he was at his best weight. He was slender but he wasn't to thin and skinny. He had small muscles, broad and tone shoulders and a sexy jaw line. He also had sexy big hands and tone legs. He had a nice ass too, receipts

Thats why Naomi was touching all up on it in the In the Closet video...

Oh we already know he was blessed in other places too

LOL I love this gif, its golden!

Stand, you`ve been sitting much too long, there`s a permanent crease in your right or wrong.~Sly Stone
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Reply #39 posted 09/12/17 7:53am

ThatWhiteDude

mjscarousal said:









Very good looking man with a beautiful smile and beautiful heart heart



His physique is underrated imo. During the 90s, he was at his best weight. He was slender but he wasn't to thin and skinny. He had small muscles, broad and tone shoulders and a sexy jaw line. He also had sexy big hands and tone legs. He had a nice ass too, receipts








Thats why Naomi was touching all up on it in the In the Closet video...



Oh we already know he was blessed in other places too





LOL I love this gif, its golden!













To be fair, Naomi touched him because it was in the script
Dig if you will the picture, of me and Marvin Gaye with the kids.
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Reply #40 posted 09/12/17 9:18am

2freaky4church
1

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This is PRINCE org.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
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Reply #41 posted 09/12/17 9:32am

MickyDolenz

2freaky4church1 said:

This is MONKEES.org.

It's called show business for a reason. It’s 90% business and 10% show. If you don’t know your business, you’re in trouble! ~ Johnnie Taylor
Each generation has their music that they fall in love with, that makes it special to them ~ Ralph Tresvant
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Reply #42 posted 09/12/17 1:05pm

Adorecream

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These types of threads always make me laugh. People who are shocked that michael Jackson could display normal heterosexual behaviour on stage, wearing provocative outfits singing suggestive songs and dancing seductively. Not shocking to us MJ fans, his music featured many songs about men chasing and/or trying to attract desirable women (Who is it, In the Closet, Break of Dawn, Speechless, You rock my world, Baby be mine, Lady in my life, Dangerous etc) and could also sing them beautiful ballads telling them how much I love them.

.

Gad we kept to the high ground and did not feed the troll who was waiting for a hater to suggest something else about Michael's sexuality that is nonsense. Just because MJ was not as sexually forthright as say Prince, he still knew what men did and new how to play to it.

Prince - Love4oneanother
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Reply #43 posted 09/12/17 1:55pm

MotownSubdivis
ion

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2freaky4church1 said:

This is PRINCE org.

And we're in the NON-PRINCE section.
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Reply #44 posted 09/12/17 4:25pm

luvsexy4all

i still cant believe some women find him sexually appealing...

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Reply #45 posted 09/12/17 5:10pm

VoicesCarry

Adorecream said:

These types of threads always make me laugh. People who are shocked that michael Jackson could display normal heterosexual behaviour on stage, wearing provocative outfits singing suggestive songs and dancing seductively. Not shocking to us MJ fans, his music featured many songs about men chasing and/or trying to attract desirable women (Who is it, In the Closet, Break of Dawn, Speechless, You rock my world, Baby be mine, Lady in my life, Dangerous etc) and could also sing them beautiful ballads telling them how much I love them.

.

Gad we kept to the high ground and did not feed the troll who was waiting for a hater to suggest something else about Michael's sexuality that is nonsense. Just because MJ was not as sexually forthright as say Prince, he still knew what men did and new how to play to it.

And Rock Hudson was the male romantic lead in countless films where he tried to chase and/or attract desireable women. Not sure what your point is, becuase his art offers zero insight into his sexuality. And why would it matter if he was gay, anyway?

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Reply #46 posted 09/12/17 5:32pm

morningsong

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luvsexy4all said:

i still cant believe some women find him sexually appealing...




He had his moments. There was even a thread on the org on PM&M that got really steamy about Michael. I tried to find it, but didn't.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #47 posted 09/13/17 4:40pm

OzlemUcucu

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PatrickS77 said:

OzlemUcucu said:

LOL Laura I love your straight talk. Nothing compares to Prince's manly sexiness. MJ could beg me to touch his ugly ass and I wouldn't. He is horrible that white-ish strange look. Prince on the other hand is sex.


LOL right. Because Prince was the epitome of manliness. And dark. Boy was that brother dark. Geez.

Prince-1994-3.jpg


Slave.jpg



95b5888fdfd2abb2bcb12f81078cf0cdac326be1.jpg


Are we talking about this ^^^ Prince? Pot, meet Kettle.

Seriously, I think you'll find just as many women running away screaming from Michael, as you find running away screaming from Prince. Both of them weren't conventional looking, but both of them had women, who thought they were sexy as hell and/or thought they looked creepy as hell. I have heard both from women, when it came to them.

[Edited 9/11/17 16:32pm]

Look I have no respect for people who try to change their skin colour and do tons of plastic surgery If you fancy that, it's good for you. Prince has always looked like a black man. MJ has gone from a black man to an alien. This is not attractive.

Prince I will always miss and love U.
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Reply #48 posted 09/13/17 4:42pm

OzlemUcucu

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ThatWhiteDude said:

That's exactly that type of shit I meant when I was talking about bashin other artists. This is a freakin MJ Thread where his Fans can talk about why they think he looked great in the 90's. Why do some Prince Fans feel the need to come over just to make fun and destroy the joy of that Thread?

I am not the biggest MJ Fan on earth and I got my opinion on his surgery, but I don't go over here to throw in their faces.

Cause this is a Prince forum and all we wanna talk is Prince. MJ is very irrelevant to people here. It's easy as that.

Prince I will always miss and love U.
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Reply #49 posted 09/13/17 5:16pm

ThatWhiteDude

OzlemUcucu said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

That's exactly that type of shit I meant when I was talking about bashin other artists. This is a freakin MJ Thread where his Fans can talk about why they think he looked great in the 90's. Why do some Prince Fans feel the need to come over just to make fun and destroy the joy of that Thread?

I am not the biggest MJ Fan on earth and I got my opinion on his surgery, but I don't go over here to throw in their faces.

Cause this is a Prince forum and all we wanna talk is Prince. MJ is very irrelevant to people here. It's easy as that.

Uhm yeah, but that is the Music: Non-Prince section, so your comment is a bit dumb.

Dig if you will the picture, of me and Marvin Gaye with the kids.
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Reply #50 posted 09/13/17 5:17pm

ThatWhiteDude

OzlemUcucu said:

PatrickS77 said:


LOL right. Because Prince was the epitome of manliness. And dark. Boy was that brother dark. Geez.

Prince-1994-3.jpg


Slave.jpg



95b5888fdfd2abb2bcb12f81078cf0cdac326be1.jpg


Are we talking about this ^^^ Prince? Pot, meet Kettle.

Seriously, I think you'll find just as many women running away screaming from Michael, as you find running away screaming from Prince. Both of them weren't conventional looking, but both of them had women, who thought they were sexy as hell and/or thought they looked creepy as hell. I have heard both from women, when it came to them.

[Edited 9/11/17 16:32pm]

Look I have no respect for people who try to change their skin colour and do tons of plastic surgery If you fancy that, it's good for you. Prince has always looked like a black man. MJ has gone from a black man to an alien. This is not attractive.

It was proven that MJ had Vitiligo, he didn't just try to change his skin colour.

Dig if you will the picture, of me and Marvin Gaye with the kids.
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Reply #51 posted 09/13/17 5:20pm

gandorb

I mean this with all sincerity but this thread has been an eye opener. I have never known anyone who has ever said that they thought Michael was sexy. Talented and gifted yes, sexy no. I don't doubt the folks here that they and others do. However, I don't think many of Micheal's fans think of him this way. It is his relatively asexual nature that appeals to children and why so many parents will play Michael for their toddlers. Yes, I know he grabbed his crotch several times in video, but was that really a turn on for folks. In any case, to each his own.

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Reply #52 posted 09/13/17 5:23pm

PatrickS77

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OzlemUcucu said:



ThatWhiteDude said:


That's exactly that type of shit I meant when I was talking about bashin other artists. This is a freakin MJ Thread where his Fans can talk about why they think he looked great in the 90's. Why do some Prince Fans feel the need to come over just to make fun and destroy the joy of that Thread?



I am not the biggest MJ Fan on earth and I got my opinion on his surgery, but I don't go over here to throw in their faces.




Cause this is a Prince forum and all we wanna talk is Prince. MJ is very irrelevant to people here. It's easy as that.



And yet you're here talking about Michael. Even though it clearly says Michael Jackson in the thread title and this is the music:non-Prince section. You must be really dense to not grasp that concept, But then again, you think that Prince looked like the average dark and black guy. So it's not really surprising.
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Reply #53 posted 09/13/17 5:42pm

OzlemUcucu

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PatrickS77 said:

OzlemUcucu said:

Cause this is a Prince forum and all we wanna talk is Prince. MJ is very irrelevant to people here. It's easy as that.

And yet you're here talking about Michael. Even though it clearly says Michael Jackson in the thread title and this is the music:non-Prince section. You must be really dense to not grasp that concept, But then again, you think that Prince looked like the average dark and black guy. So it's not really surprising.

Hey Patrick, whenever I come here to hang out with like minded folks and check the subforums I always see you and the regular MJ fans here. None of you have ever contributed to Prince, it feels like I am sitting at a table to discuss and feel connected with Prince fans and I am sure you know what I mean by that, and I feel like I have some MJ fans peeking over my shoulder to remind me hey yeah Prince was great but MJ was great too. You gotta understand Prince fans are Prince fans, if I wanna know anything about MJ I wouldn't be checking here. You folks are very annoying at times. Nobody is against you being an MJ fan, but you are more of an MJ fan than a Prince fan. This is a fact.

I have never understood why you can't split your time between MJ forums and Prince forum. Can you please explain to me why this is impossible for you?

You gotta be very grateful for Prince and his fans and the moderators here on how this is being handled over the years. You have been bashing Prince in defense over MJ but you forget this is a crowd of Prince fans. If you go to a Prince concert and talk about MJ all the time, I would have kicked your ass so badly I am very serious. People talking on other subforums about other artists are Prince fans, but you are an obsessive MJ fan.

[Edited 9/13/17 17:48pm]

Prince I will always miss and love U.
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Reply #54 posted 09/13/17 7:12pm

mjscarousal

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A couple months ago, I was in this section DEFENDING Prince because PRINCE fans were arguing Prince has done no social activism for Black people or Black artists. eek PRINCE fans said that NOT MJ fans. I was actually defending Prince (passionately might I add) against Prince fans who said he didn't do no social activism which I thought was odd and I still think is shocking till day because Prince did so much for Black people and used his platform to talk about racism and discrimination in his music.

So before you go trashing MJ fans, LOOK AT PRINCE FANS AND HOW THEY TRASH PRINCE! I think its sad how negative Prince fans are towards Prince on his OWN fan site! There is more hating on Prince by Prince fans than by MJ fans and that is the irony and stupidity of Prince fans that hate MJ fans. Also, I have gone over to the other section and participated in discussions about Prince and I am also a fan of his art and talent. Ive seen him live as well and its the best show I have ever seen BUT this creepy hatred that you Prince fans have toward MJ is....weird and very childish. You all get so riled up at the mention of his name and don't want other Prince fans to celebrate his talent as well. Prince fans always find a way to trash and disrespect MJ and then get mad when stan wars erupt. I will never forget how disrespectful the org was when MJ passed. Some of the most hateful and cruel things were posted here about MJ that was very nasty and inhumane. Its sad that this type of behavior is allowed here. Just because this is a Prince site doesn't mean everyone has to talk about Prince specifically when they come here. This is the NON Prince Music forum and other artists are discussed here not Prince. If you don't want to talk about other artists, than stay in the Prince section, problem solved. nuts

Stand, you`ve been sitting much too long, there`s a permanent crease in your right or wrong.~Sly Stone
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Reply #55 posted 09/13/17 9:35pm

purplethunder3
121

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There were sooooooooooo many "gold leotard" threads on MJ sites in the months after he died... lol

Free your mind...and your ass will follow.
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Reply #56 posted 09/13/17 11:02pm

Adorecream

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OzlemUcucu said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

That's exactly that type of shit I meant when I was talking about bashin other artists. This is a freakin MJ Thread where his Fans can talk about why they think he looked great in the 90's. Why do some Prince Fans feel the need to come over just to make fun and destroy the joy of that Thread?

I am not the biggest MJ Fan on earth and I got my opinion on his surgery, but I don't go over here to throw in their faces.

Cause this is a Prince forum and all we wanna talk is Prince. MJ is very irrelevant to people here. It's easy as that.

2 THINGS TROLL!

1. Michael Jackson had vitiligo (Google it, if you don't know what it is), the patches and blotches were unattractive so he spread creams on his face and hands and these lightened over time. He never bleached his skin, that is bullshit. Also he had plastic surgey so he would not look like Joseph his abusive father and pimp.

.

2. Don't like Michael Jackson threads, don't look at them and don't respond to them, we have a big ass section devoted entirely to Prince, MJ enters it very little if at all. Stop being so pie eyed and getting hot under the collar when we discuss the King of Pop. Fuck off back to the Prince section and vent your spleen there, instead of here. Shmon motherfXXker.! Aooowww!!!!

Prince - Love4oneanother
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Reply #57 posted 09/13/17 11:04pm

Adorecream

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mjscarousal said:

A couple months ago, I was in this section DEFENDING Prince because PRINCE fans were arguing Prince has done no social activism for Black people or Black artists. eek PRINCE fans said that NOT MJ fans. I was actually defending Prince (passionately might I add) against Prince fans who said he didn't do no social activism which I thought was odd and I still think is shocking till day because Prince did so much for Black people and used his platform to talk about racism and discrimination in his music.

So before you go trashing MJ fans, LOOK AT PRINCE FANS AND HOW THEY TRASH PRINCE! I think its sad how negative Prince fans are towards Prince on his OWN fan site! There is more hating on Prince by Prince fans than by MJ fans and that is the irony and stupidity of Prince fans that hate MJ fans. Also, I have gone over to the other section and participated in discussions about Prince and I am also a fan of his art and talent. Ive seen him live as well and its the best show I have ever seen BUT this creepy hatred that you Prince fans have toward MJ is....weird and very childish. You all get so riled up at the mention of his name and don't want other Prince fans to celebrate his talent as well. Prince fans always find a way to trash and disrespect MJ and then get mad when stan wars erupt. I will never forget how disrespectful the org was when MJ passed. Some of the most hateful and cruel things were posted here about MJ that was very nasty and inhumane. Its sad that this type of behavior is allowed here. Just because this is a Prince site doesn't mean everyone has to talk about Prince specifically when they come here. This is the NON Prince Music forum and other artists are discussed here not Prince. If you don't want to talk about other artists, than stay in the Prince section, problem solved. nuts

Preach on! Amen! Preach on.

Prince - Love4oneanother
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Reply #58 posted 09/14/17 6:48am

purple05

PatrickS77 said:



laurarichardson said:


PatrickS77 said:
Yes. It is you. Your hate for Michael is really bordering on the creepy. Obviously millions of fans found him good looking throughout his career. Back in Germany in the nineties he repeatedly was on and won the poll conducted by Bravo, the biggest german speaking youth magazine, for best looking singer.

That is Germany were they belived David Hasselloff is hot. I am not the one who put up this topic that the MJ of the 90s who looked like an old white women was attractive looking in the face. Something is creepy if you do not see how he fucked up his beautiful face and I know I am not the only one who thinks this.


Seriously. You're patehtic. Up until the late nineties he was on those polls and also was winnnig some of those polls. That's a fact. Right up until '01 he still looked good. From then on, he had his days where he looked good and days where he kinda looked like shit (great pics and bad pics... I always thought in those days, that he looked much better in person than on the pics). But he still had fans, who thought he looked great.


Yea I heard in later years he looked much better in person. Especially when he was toned down. There were even other celebrities who used to approach him. I know people(the public) who seen MJ at Janes Brown funeral and they said he looked great.
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Reply #59 posted 09/15/17 1:25pm

luvsexy4all

we dont like them doggin Prince..we shouldnt dog MJ either

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