alphastreet said:

MotownSubdivision said:

Everyone saying Dangerous is MJ's most underrated work are only proving my point that HIStory is the real underrated album. Dangerous was very well-received and viewed as an improvement over Bad by critics; the general public still remember/ mention many of its songs and videos. Outside of "Scream" is rarely brought up anyway, HIStory does not receive any of the recognition Dangerous does. It was received well enough though reviews were mixed and though a commercial success (highest selling double album of all time), all but 2 of the album's singles were Top 10 hits ("You Are Not Alone" at #1 and "Scream" at #5) with the others not even hitting the Top 20 (at least in the US). Even the controversy surrounding it (i.e. the promotion and lyrics of "They Don't Care About Us") aren't points of discussion with anyone outside of hardcore music fans like us.

Even Invincible seems to be acknowledged more although being MJ's last ever album surely has something to do with that. Dangerous is an excellent album and I think it's a better album than HIStory but there's no way it's more underrated than what came after it.

I agree HIStory and BOTDF are underrated; but also feel that outside the US it was massive. It was number one in Canada for 8 weeks and almost everyone I know/knew owned that compilation. I also agree Scream is the most remembered, at least in North America, but singles like Earth Song, TDCAU and Stranger in Moscow were big in Europe and internationally cause I think for the american music climate at the time, at least mainstream, he was ahead of his time and thoes songs would have fared well today on the charts rather.

From what I recall though, Dangerous era he was bigger than HIStory, by then most were listening to hip hop or grunge, or bit of both and MJ was someone they liked when they were younger and bought the album for disc one rather

Can't disagree. MJ being a bonafide megastar overseas was confirmed with Dangerous and HIStory only reinforced that. Mike was still a big deal here in the States in the 90s but the lions share of his popularity then was in Europe and Asia so it balanced out pretty well. The American music scene of the 90s was weird with how Michael was still a spectacle and had top tier star power but was no longer the artist like he was in the 80s. Him dropping an album, performing live, premiering a music video or making a TV appearance were all still considered must-see events and his albums still sold lucrative amounts and charted at #1 among the newer, younger artists despite him not being as popular as he was the previous decade.

The Dangerous era was certainly bigger than the HIStory era and would have been bigger still had it not been for the pedophile accusations, the very thing that both plagued and fueled HIStory. Disc One was definitely the selling point and MJ knew it, it was a clever marketing strategy even though most of HIStory's singles didn't take off because of it.

MotownSubdivision said:

alphastreet said:

I agree HIStory and BOTDF are underrated; but also feel that outside the US it was massive. It was number one in Canada for 8 weeks and almost everyone I know/knew owned that compilation. I also agree Scream is the most remembered, at least in North America, but singles like Earth Song, TDCAU and Stranger in Moscow were big in Europe and internationally cause I think for the american music climate at the time, at least mainstream, he was ahead of his time and thoes songs would have fared well today on the charts rather.

From what I recall though, Dangerous era he was bigger than HIStory, by then most were listening to hip hop or grunge, or bit of both and MJ was someone they liked when they were younger and bought the album for disc one rather

Can't disagree. MJ being a bonafide megastar overseas was confirmed with Dangerous and HIStory only reinforced that. Mike was still a big deal here in the States in the 90s but the lions share of his popularity then was in Europe and Asia so it balanced out pretty well. The American music scene of the 90s was weird with how Michael was still a spectacle and had top tier star power but was no longer the artist like he was in the 80s. Him dropping an album, performing live, premiering a music video or making a TV appearance were all still considered must-see events and his albums still sold lucrative amounts and charted at #1 among the newer, younger artists despite him not being as popular as he was the previous decade.

The Dangerous era was certainly bigger than the HIStory era and would have been bigger still had it not been for the pedophile accusations, the very thing that both plagued and fueled HIStory. Disc One was definitely the selling point and MJ knew it, it was a clever marketing strategy even though most of HIStory's singles didn't take off because of it.

Absolutely agree that the marketing was clever for HIStory with the given circumstances in place and to ensure sales. Also agree he was still considered very popular and even his older music resonated very well with the younger generation during HIStory from what I recall. But yeah, during Dangerous, one did not have to be a big mj fan to know he was making noise musically, Dangerous might have been bigger in Canada than US cause a lot of what I hear about it from online accounts was quite different from here. According to one of my classmates in college when we were remembering mj memories after his death, her words to me were EVERYONE HAD DANGEROUS!!! (referring to classmates and older siblings friends). Black or White was hard to get away from for 2 years; and Will You Be There was massive here as well....

[Edited 8/22/17 10:00am]

alphastreet said:

MotownSubdivision said:

Can't disagree. MJ being a bonafide megastar overseas was confirmed with Dangerous and HIStory only reinforced that. Mike was still a big deal here in the States in the 90s but the lions share of his popularity then was in Europe and Asia so it balanced out pretty well. The American music scene of the 90s was weird with how Michael was still a spectacle and had top tier star power but was no longer the artist like he was in the 80s. Him dropping an album, performing live, premiering a music video or making a TV appearance were all still considered must-see events and his albums still sold lucrative amounts and charted at #1 among the newer, younger artists despite him not being as popular as he was the previous decade.

The Dangerous era was certainly bigger than the HIStory era and would have been bigger still had it not been for the pedophile accusations, the very thing that both plagued and fueled HIStory. Disc One was definitely the selling point and MJ knew it, it was a clever marketing strategy even though most of HIStory's singles didn't take off because of it.

Absolutely agree that the marketing was clever for HIStory with the given circumstances in place and to ensure sales. Also agree he was still considered very popular and even his older music resonated very well with the younger generation during HIStory from what I recall. But yeah, during Dangerous, one did not have to be a big mj fan to know he was making noise musically, Dangerous might have been bigger in Canada than US cause a lot of what I hear about it from online accounts was quite different from here. According to one of my classmates in college when we were remembering mj memories after his death, her words to me were EVERYONE HAD DANGEROUS!!! (referring to classmates and older siblings friends). Black or White was hard to get away from for 2 years; and Will You Be There was massive here as well....

[Edited 8/22/17 10:00am]

You're Canadian eh?? Good to know

I wasn't around at the time (born in 1994) but IIRC, Dangerous actually outsold Bad when it released and had more units sold worldwide until recently when Bad went diamond in the US. Dangerous was still big here but it was even bigger outside of the States and would've been bigger had it not been for the accusations. Had that American leg of the tour happened, no doubt the album would have had greater longevity and MJ's career trajectory would have been much better than what actually happened.

alphastreet said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

My only frustration with HIStory is that if you remove all of the weaker tracks and replace them with the five original Blood on the Dance Floor tracks you would have Michael's best album. It always reminded me of what could've been.

How would that playlist look?

I'm constantly playing around with it but this is what I currently have:

Scream

They Don't Care About Us

Morphine

Superfly Sister

Stranger in Moscow

Money

Earth Song

2 Bad

Ghosts

Tabloid Junkie

Is It Scary

Little Susie

History

Blood on the Dance Floor

This is closer to my ideal version of HIStory. It comes to about 1 hour and 16 minutes. Weaker tracks like This Time Around and D.S. are removed, alongside some of the cornier songs like Childhood (I know this song was important for Michael to create and I respect that, but I find it insufferable) and You Are Not Alone. To me it's somehow more haunting and introspective, and a lot more focused than HIStory ended up being. It's also less commercial and could've been received as Michael's 'Velvet Rope', a very personal and soul baring record after the four commercial juggernaut releases of his adult career.

[Edited 8/22/17 18:06pm]

smoothcriminal12 said:

alphastreet said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I'm constantly playing around with it but this is what I currently have:

Scream

They Don't Care About Us

Morphine

Superfly Sister

Stranger in Moscow

Money

Earth Song

2 Bad

Ghosts

Is It Scary

Little Susie

History

Blood on the Dance Floor

This is closer to my ideal version of HIStory. It comes to about 1 hour and 16 minutes. Weaker tracks like This Time Around and D.S. are removed, alongside some of the cornier songs like Childhood (I know this song was important for Michael to create and I respect that, but I find it insufferable) and You Are Not Alone. To me it's somehow more haunting and introspective, and a lot more focused than HIStory ended up being. It's also less commercial and could've been received as Michael's 'Velvet Rope', a very personal and soul baring record after the four commercial juggernaut releases of his adult career.

I like that order though would still keep stranger in Moscow after tdcau for the listener to cool off from the heavy subject matter of morphine. Would make a nice order from lows to highs

Agree...songs like "You Are Not Alone" gives the album some heart. I did'nt like Childhood or Come Together. Just odd pairings in that album. Blood Is On The Dancefloor and Ghosts fits much better. Superfly Sister is too demo like to go on History or Morphine. D.S. is more thought out and angry, and appropriate considering its story.

paisleypark4 said:

alphastreet said:

smoothcriminal12 said: I like that order though would still keep stranger in Moscow after tdcau for the listener to cool off from the heavy subject matter of morphine. Would make a nice order from lows to highs

Agree...songs like "You Are Not Alone" gives the album some heart. I did'nt like Childhood or Come Together. Just odd pairings in that album. Blood Is On The Dancefloor and Ghosts fits much better. Superfly Sister is too demo like to go on History or Morphine. D.S. is more thought out and angry, and appropriate considering its story.

I've always thought that You Are Not Alone is sappy and Michael's worst #1 song. D.S. is also a pretty poor song with a very weak chorus and reeks of something written in the heat of the moment, that ultimately doesn't really leave a lasting impression. And Superfly Sister is just too funky to be left to the dustbin.

smoothcriminal12 said:

MotownSubdivision said:

Everyone saying Dangerous is MJ's most underrated work are only proving my point that HIStory is the real underrated album. Dangerous was very well-received and viewed as an improvement over Bad by critics; the general public still remember/ mention many of its songs and videos. Outside of "Scream" is rarely brought up anyway, HIStory does not receive any of the recognition Dangerous does. It was received well enough though reviews were mixed and though a commercial success (highest selling double album of all time), all but 2 of the album's singles were Top 10 hits ("You Are Not Alone" at #1 and "Scream" at #5) with the others not even hitting the Top 20 (at least in the US). Even the controversy surrounding it (i.e. the promotion and lyrics of "They Don't Care About Us") aren't points of discussion with anyone outside of hardcore music fans like us.

Even Invincible seems to be acknowledged more although being MJ's last ever album surely has something to do with that. Dangerous is an excellent album and I think it's a better album than HIStory but there's no way it's more underrated than what came after it.

My only frustration with HIStory is that if you remove all of the weaker tracks and replace them with the five original Blood on the Dance Floor tracks you would have Michael's best album. It always reminded me of what could've been.

I don't know, the sound of those five songs in BOTDF album is different from History album, not lyrically but in sound.

smoothcriminal12 said:

alphastreet said:

smoothcriminal12 said: How would that playlist look?

I'm constantly playing around with it but this is what I currently have:

Scream

They Don't Care About Us

Morphine

Superfly Sister

Stranger in Moscow

Money

Earth Song

2 Bad

Ghosts

Is It Scary

Little Susie

History

Blood on the Dance Floor

This is closer to my ideal version of HIStory. It comes to about 1 hour and 16 minutes. Weaker tracks like This Time Around and D.S. are removed, alongside some of the cornier songs like Childhood (I know this song was important for Michael to create and I respect that, but I find it insufferable) and You Are Not Alone. To me it's somehow more haunting and introspective, and a lot more focused than HIStory ended up being. It's also less commercial and could've been received as Michael's 'Velvet Rope', a very personal and soul baring record after the four commercial juggernaut releases of his adult career.

You took out one of the best songs in the album Tabloid Junkie.

214 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I'm constantly playing around with it but this is what I currently have:

Scream

They Don't Care About Us

Morphine

Superfly Sister

Stranger in Moscow

Money

Earth Song

2 Bad

Ghosts

Is It Scary

Little Susie

History

Blood on the Dance Floor

This is closer to my ideal version of HIStory. It comes to about 1 hour and 16 minutes. Weaker tracks like This Time Around and D.S. are removed, alongside some of the cornier songs like Childhood (I know this song was important for Michael to create and I respect that, but I find it insufferable) and You Are Not Alone. To me it's somehow more haunting and introspective, and a lot more focused than HIStory ended up being. It's also less commercial and could've been received as Michael's 'Velvet Rope', a very personal and soul baring record after the four commercial juggernaut releases of his adult career.

You took out one of the best songs in the album Tabloid Junkie.

Oh I accidentally erased it, it's actually on my playlist between Ghosts and Is It Scary.

214 said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

My only frustration with HIStory is that if you remove all of the weaker tracks and replace them with the five original Blood on the Dance Floor tracks you would have Michael's best album. It always reminded me of what could've been.

I don't know, the sound of those five songs in BOTDF album is different from History album, not lyrically but in sound.

Really? I've never thought of HIStory as having a defined "sound" the would differentiate it from the BOTDF songs. The album strikes me as incredibly eclectic and eccentric, and is probably one of the only pop albums I've heard with songs like Little Susie and Childhood alongside Tabloid Junkie and Money.

[Edited 8/22/17 18:08pm]

Toofunkyinhere said:

It ain't underrated. Dangerous is the underrated one.

hell yeah...been saying that for years...

I'd be of the opinion if Bad had Thriller's production it'd be better regarded. There's something a little too dated or of its time about the sound on Bad that doesn't affect Thriller. Thriller has a lot more live percussion and drum tracks doesn't it? Track for track and as an over all listening experience I think Bad works better but the sound of Thriller still holds up. We're talking comparing two 10/10 albums though so i'm not that pushed either way.

[Edited 8/23/17 3:51am]

paisleypark4 said:

alphastreet said:

smoothcriminal12 said: I like that order though would still keep stranger in Moscow after tdcau for the listener to cool off from the heavy subject matter of morphine. Would make a nice order from lows to highs

Agree...songs like "You Are Not Alone" gives the album some heart. I did'nt like Childhood or Come Together. Just odd pairings in that album. Blood Is On The Dancefloor and Ghosts fits much better. Superfly Sister is too demo like to go on History or Morphine. D.S. is more thought out and angry, and appropriate considering its story.

You know of my disdain for You Are Not Alone (I've been wondering if my dislike for the writer adds weight to that...hmmm ) but I loved and still love Childhood and Smile.

Come Together on the album has always confused me. It would've worked on disc one

Blood On The Dancefloor and Superfly Sister would've worked great as a double A side single in '97

Disc One

1. Billie Jean

2. The Way You Make Me Feel

3. Black or White

4. Rock With You

5. She’s Out of My Life

6. Bad

7. I Just Can’t Stop Loving You

8. Wanna Be Startin’ Somethin’

9. Come Together

10. Thriller

11. Beat It

12. The Girl Is Mine

13. Remember The Time

14. Don’t Stop Til You Get Enough

15. Man In The Mirror

Disc Two

1. Scream

2. They Don’t Care About us

3. Stranger In Moscow

4. This Time Around

5. Earth Song

6. Tabloid Junkie

7. Money

8. Morphine

9. On The Line

10. Childhood

11. 2 Bad

12. HIStory

13. Little Susie

14. Smile

15. Is It Scary

jaawwnn said:

Bad sounds like it is chasing a modern sound whilst Purple Rain was presenting a new modern sound.

MotownSubdivision said:

smoothcriminal12 said:

I've always thought that You Are Not Alone is sappy and Michael's worst #1 song.

I don't have problem with albums that sound dated.

214 said:

I don't have problem with albums that sound dated.

Neither do I. It's a weird criticism levelled most harshly at music, even classic albums. Movies, paintings and other art don't seem to suffer as much from it.

Marrk said:

214 said:

I don't have problem with albums that sound dated.

Neither do I. It's a weird criticism levelled most harshly at music, even classic albums. Movies, paintings and other art don't seem to suffer as much from it.

Movies sometimes become a period piece when looking back at how it was filmed, and when keeping in mind how technology has evolved since through what communication tools are used in the films compared to now. And sometimes the way the writing and timing and delivery is holds up better in a certain time period than a more current one.

Also as much as the instruments are dated, the advantage of Bad is that synths always make a comeback in spurts when it comes to mainstream and underground music, and the melodies and fashion and artwork of that album art seems to have held up very well in pop culture; even if not at thriller level.

[Edited 8/23/17 15:30pm]

jaawwnn said:

2020 said:

Cause it was BAD

Not at all.

Goddess4Real said:

I still think HIStory is more underrated than BAD.

.

THANK YOU.

.

Absolutely agree with this. Fascinating album from a fascinating period in his life/career.

Speed Demon is my jam

And the classic Another Part of Me