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Reply #300 posted 08/01/17 8:13am

alphastreet

You just seem really angry with him and disappointed, that's all. You're not the first or last, but you seem to fixate over and over on it, and I sense you're feeling helpless about what happened to him cause he was such a prominent part of your life as with many, does that sound right? It's not a fun cycle to be trapped in, and in a sense the way he's been blacklisted feels close to home, that's why it's so horrific what happened to him too in a sense, maybe for you like seeing it happen to a family member you couldn't have reached out to, right? Just trying to understand since the topic has shifted onto michael rather than quincy, it seems like though I know you're genuinely upset, you're projecting those feelings onto (a small fraction of) fans online.

[Edited 8/1/17 8:33am]

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Reply #301 posted 08/01/17 8:34am

mjscarousal

avatar

Scorp said:

mjscarousal said:

No

If he didn't have a dysfunctional childhood and a physically and emotionally abusive father he probably would not have grew into an emotionally damaged man. His father didn't tell him he was beautiful and that is probably why he didn't think he was. His father told him he was Ugly, "God you are so ugly" (this is what a father said to HIS child everyday) and you sit here and say that he should have embraced his beauty when from a toddler into teenhood Michaels father constantly told him he was ugly and inadequate????? I see you want to re-write history and blame everything on MJ because of your mental instability. EVERYTHING is all Michael's fault according to you and nobody has done anything questionable to him, keep being delusional hater.

[Edited 8/1/17 3:55am]

ahhhhh

the art of media manipulation......

when Oprah asked him in that interview in 1993 about whether he started having plastic surgery was because he didn't like the way he looked during his teenage years...his exact words were "no not really, it's no big deal"........and he was not the only Jackson to be pushed to change their look...the majority of the family act, including the matriarch and patriach underwent some sort of surgery during that time

nobody was talking this stuff about beatdowns and abuse during OTW and Thriller when sales were meeting expectations......this narrative did not kick in until 1988-1989.......and there's no way his father said that to him every single day.....that's media manipulation kicked in into overdrive

nobody was talking dysfunctionality during the years of Jackson Five prominence, the real dysfunction is how influence w/in a high profiled industry based on image building pushes people to contort their being to gain what they perceive to be the targeted mode of acceptance

when his sister was trying to attain the same level of fame he had, she claimed sexual abuse at the hands of her father (and I know right off jump street that wasn't true, that went through one ear and then went out the other), and then 10 years later by 1995, she refuted her own claims and said none of that was true and said she was coerced to say all that stuff

Joe Jackson was not perfect as no parent is, and he didn't take no stuff off his children, yeah, he was overbearing at times, and he made mistakes...no doubt about it, but this current narrative over the years has gone beyond the realm of natural decorum and entered this state of the point of no return

if Joe Jackson was not invested in the careers of his sons allowed them to remain a teenage act, as Tito Jackson said in that Jackson American Dream movie "they won't have any use for us, they're gonna just overdub us anyway"...if Joe Jackson didn't encourage them to grow professionally.......there never would have been a Enjoy Yourself or Show You The Way to Go, there would not have been a Destiny album or Triumph Album, and there would not have been an OTW album by the end of the 70s.......

When Thriller was released in 1982 and through 1983, Michael Jackson stood and presented himself as a grown man, which is a major reason why he garnered the support of a wave of adult record buyers to help that album become the greatest selling ever, it wasn't just kids and teenagers who bought that.........

[Edited 8/1/17 4:49am]

This post shows you cannot be objective when it comes to Michael and you have a personal issue with him. The fact that you cannot not even admit there was something ethically wrong about a father emotionally and physically abusing their son tells me what I already suspected about you and this will be my last response to you, back on ignore you go. As I said earlier, there are plenty of Anti MJ boards you can go to and spill you guts till your hearts desires on how much you think MJ messed his life up. No need to constantly derail threads attacking MJ fans or MJ.

Stand, you`ve been sitting much too long, there`s a permanent crease in your right or wrong.~Sly Stone
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Reply #302 posted 08/01/17 9:40am

namepeace

PeteSilas said:

maybe, maybe not. In Q's bio there was one guy who said that quincy's success really exceeded his talent, I forget who it was, but I think they also mentioned his social skills being the key. Quite humble for quincy to allow that kind of opinion in his bio. What could quincy do exactly? he was known as a horrible trumpet player (not that I would know what a great trumpet player is) I've seen him pick at the piano and it's nothing impressive. He can't sing. So, that leaves his compositional skill, his knowledge of various forms of music, I think he is frankly a genius in that area.

Most of the great coaches weren't great players. Likewise, any if not most of the great producers weren't great musicians. Quincy the musical prodigy. We talk about QJ as a producer, arranger and composer.

But I still believe his biggest talent is as a bullshitter as a people person. I see it as insincere, I mentioned he was in seattle showing great interest in the small time musicians here, but you have to ask yourself, who's he doing that kind of thing for? I think he does it strictly for ego. Some guys have that gift, they'll steal the undwear off of you and have you thanking them for it. The Michael statements came at a bad time and they didn't make any sense, even if they were true, it doesn't matter.

He's a climber. So was MJ. Don't let either of them fool us. I understand that relationship got messy, for reasons I went over in Reply #67, but QJ didn't con MJ. He helped MJ become the biggest star in music history.


Hell, Elvis' manager is hated by many of his fans too and there are legitimate reasons for it but even as cold and hardhearted that guy was, he never said a bad thing publicly about elvis, never. And he could have said a lot of things.

Different cases, and QJ is hated for much different, and less substantial, reasons than Elvis' manager. First off, QJ didn't manage MJ. Second, Col. Tom Parker was alleged to have cheated Elvis and allegedly did little to help with Elvis' substance use. He had far more control over the various aspects of Presley's life than QJ did over MJ.

What QJ fans are mad about is not that QJ stole from MJ, or failed to prevent MJ's health from getting worse. Many fans have beef about comments QJ made about MJ in the years after their collabos and after.

But a slice of MJ fanatics don't like that QJ gets ample credit for albums they perceive as belonging to MJ.


Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #303 posted 08/01/17 3:59pm

Scorp

alphastreet said:

You just seem really angry with him and disappointed, that's all. You're not the first or last, but you seem to fixate over and over on it, and I sense you're feeling helpless about what happened to him cause he was such a prominent part of your life as with many, does that sound right? It's not a fun cycle to be trapped in, and in a sense the way he's been blacklisted feels close to home, that's why it's so horrific what happened to him too in a sense, maybe for you like seeing it happen to a family member you couldn't have reached out to, right? Just trying to understand since the topic has shifted onto michael rather than quincy, it seems like though I know you're genuinely upset, you're projecting those feelings onto (a small fraction of) fans online.

[Edited 8/1/17 8:33am]

Im upset on how the contradictions in this industry that pushed hin to a realm that was no good as well as the 95% horrific music thats on the airwaves and how an entire culture of authenticity has been shredded. Thats all it is

Im not projecting anything to anyone, this entertainment music industry is hanging on by a thread

If this has happened to another person other than Michael, I would be just as upset

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Reply #304 posted 08/01/17 4:03pm

Scorp

mjscarousal said:

Scorp said:

ahhhhh

the art of media manipulation......

when Oprah asked him in that interview in 1993 about whether he started having plastic surgery was because he didn't like the way he looked during his teenage years...his exact words were "no not really, it's no big deal"........and he was not the only Jackson to be pushed to change their look...the majority of the family act, including the matriarch and patriach underwent some sort of surgery during that time

nobody was talking this stuff about beatdowns and abuse during OTW and Thriller when sales were meeting expectations......this narrative did not kick in until 1988-1989.......and there's no way his father said that to him every single day.....that's media manipulation kicked in into overdrive

nobody was talking dysfunctionality during the years of Jackson Five prominence, the real dysfunction is how influence w/in a high profiled industry based on image building pushes people to contort their being to gain what they perceive to be the targeted mode of acceptance

when his sister was trying to attain the same level of fame he had, she claimed sexual abuse at the hands of her father (and I know right off jump street that wasn't true, that went through one ear and then went out the other), and then 10 years later by 1995, she refuted her own claims and said none of that was true and said she was coerced to say all that stuff

Joe Jackson was not perfect as no parent is, and he didn't take no stuff off his children, yeah, he was overbearing at times, and he made mistakes...no doubt about it, but this current narrative over the years has gone beyond the realm of natural decorum and entered this state of the point of no return

if Joe Jackson was not invested in the careers of his sons allowed them to remain a teenage act, as Tito Jackson said in that Jackson American Dream movie "they won't have any use for us, they're gonna just overdub us anyway"...if Joe Jackson didn't encourage them to grow professionally.......there never would have been a Enjoy Yourself or Show You The Way to Go, there would not have been a Destiny album or Triumph Album, and there would not have been an OTW album by the end of the 70s.......

When Thriller was released in 1982 and through 1983, Michael Jackson stood and presented himself as a grown man, which is a major reason why he garnered the support of a wave of adult record buyers to help that album become the greatest selling ever, it wasn't just kids and teenagers who bought that.........

[Edited 8/1/17 4:49am]

This post shows you cannot be objective when it comes to Michael and you have a personal issue with him. The fact that you cannot not even admit there was something ethically wrong about a father emotionally and physically abusing their son tells me what I already suspected about you and this will be my last response to you, back on ignore you go. As I said earlier, there are plenty of Anti MJ boards you can go to and spill you guts till your hearts desires on how much you think MJ messed his life up. No need to constantly derail threads attacking MJ fans or MJ.

It doesn't feel good when the shoes on the other foot and you "feel" like you're being attacked does it?

Thats just a small cluster of what that family has had to deal with for 30 years

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Reply #305 posted 08/02/17 10:50am

alphastreet

Scorp said:

alphastreet said:

You just seem really angry with him and disappointed, that's all. You're not the first or last, but you seem to fixate over and over on it, and I sense you're feeling helpless about what happened to him cause he was such a prominent part of your life as with many, does that sound right? It's not a fun cycle to be trapped in, and in a sense the way he's been blacklisted feels close to home, that's why it's so horrific what happened to him too in a sense, maybe for you like seeing it happen to a family member you couldn't have reached out to, right? Just trying to understand since the topic has shifted onto michael rather than quincy, it seems like though I know you're genuinely upset, you're projecting those feelings onto (a small fraction of) fans online.

[Edited 8/1/17 8:33am]

Im upset on how the contradictions in this industry that pushed hin to a realm that was no good as well as the 95% horrific music thats on the airwaves and how an entire culture of authenticity has been shredded. Thats all it is

Im not projecting anything to anyone, this entertainment music industry is hanging on by a thread

If this has happened to another person other than Michael, I would be just as upset

I think many people would be upset, it is really upsetting what was happening for years and it's sad that it took his untimely death for the general public to be upset, it was too late. It angered me how much his ass was being kissed following the death after people realized too late. Most of us fans including you took on the anger and isolation in these feelings, and it was a real thing, I can only imagine how much worse it was actually being him behind the smoke and mirrors. He had so much strength and humility through it all, but even his body and mind had enough at the end sad We all knew touring was going to kill him, and that was my first thought when this is it was announced but didn't want to miss the shows either, but never had a good feeling about it from the get go though ignored it....

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Reply #306 posted 08/02/17 11:19am

Scorp

alphastreet said:

Scorp said:

Im upset on how the contradictions in this industry that pushed hin to a realm that was no good as well as the 95% horrific music thats on the airwaves and how an entire culture of authenticity has been shredded. Thats all it is

Im not projecting anything to anyone, this entertainment music industry is hanging on by a thread

If this has happened to another person other than Michael, I would be just as upset

I think many people would be upset, it is really upsetting what was happening for years and it's sad that it took his untimely death for the general public to be upset, it was too late. It angered me how much his ass was being kissed following the death after people realized too late. Most of us fans including you took on the anger and isolation in these feelings, and it was a real thing, I can only imagine how much worse it was actually being him behind the smoke and mirrors. He had so much strength and humility through it all, but even his body and mind had enough at the end sad We all knew touring was going to kill him, and that was my first thought when this is it was announced but didn't want to miss the shows either, but never had a good feeling about it from the get go though ignored it....

Exactly....too late and gone too soon

And for me, I was upset throughout

And you're right, when Mike attended that press conference to announce those 02 concerts, he stared out in the crowd, then lowered his head down and that told me everything I needed to know, that man was tired and ready to give up the thrown

[Edited 8/2/17 11:26am]

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Reply #307 posted 08/02/17 12:37pm

Free2BMe

mjscarousal said:



Scorp said:




mjscarousal said:




No


If he didn't have a dysfunctional childhood and a physically and emotionally abusive father he probably would not have grew into an emotionally damaged man. His father didn't tell him he was beautiful and that is probably why he didn't think he was. His father told him he was Ugly, "God you are so ugly" (this is what a father said to HIS child everyday) and you sit here and say that he should have embraced his beauty when from a toddler into teenhood Michaels father constantly told him he was ugly and inadequate????? I see you want to re-write history and blame everything on MJ because of your mental instability. EVERYTHING is all Michael's fault according to you and nobody has done anything questionable to him, keep being delusional hater.


[Edited 8/1/17 3:55am]





ahhhhh



the art of media manipulation.....



when Oprah asked him in that interview in 1993 about whether he started having plastic surgery was because he didn't like the way he looked during his teenage years...his exact words were "no not really, it's no big deal".....and he was not the only Jackson to be pushed to change their look...the majority of the family act, including the matriarch and patriach underwent some sort of surgery during that time



nobody was talking this stuff about beatdowns and abuse during OTW and Thriller when sales were meeting expectations.....this narrative did not kick in until 1988-1989.....and there's no way his father said that to him every single day.....that's media manipulation kicked in into overdrive



nobody was talking dysfunctionality during the years of Jackson Five prominence, the real dysfunction is how influence w/in a high profiled industry based on image building pushes people to contort their being to gain what they perceive to be the targeted mode of acceptance



when his sister was trying to attain the same level of fame he had, she claimed sexual abuse at the hands of her father (and I know right off jump street that wasn't true, that went through one ear and then went out the other), and then 10 years later by 1995, she refuted her own claims and said none of that was true and said she was coerced to say all that stuff



Joe Jackson was not perfect as no parent is, and he didn't take no stuff off his children, yeah, he was overbearing at times, and he made mistakes...no doubt about it, but this current narrative over the years has gone beyond the realm of natural decorum and entered this state of the point of no return



if Joe Jackson was not invested in the careers of his sons allowed them to remain a teenage act, as Tito Jackson said in that Jackson American Dream movie "they won't have any use for us, they're gonna just overdub us anyway"...if Joe Jackson didn't encourage them to grow professionally.....there never would have been a Enjoy Yourself or Show You The Way to Go, there would not have been a Destiny album or Triumph Album, and there would not have been an OTW album by the end of the 70s.....



When Thriller was released in 1982 and through 1983, Michael Jackson stood and presented himself as a grown man, which is a major reason why he garnered the support of a wave of adult record buyers to help that album become the greatest selling ever, it wasn't just kids and teenagers who bought that.....





[Edited 8/1/17 4:49am]




This post shows you cannot be objective when it comes to Michael and you have a personal issue with him. The fact that you cannot not even admit there was something ethically wrong about a father emotionally and physically abusing their son tells me what I already suspected about you and this will be my last response to you, back on ignore you go. As I said earlier, there are plenty of Anti MJ boards you can go to and spill you guts till your hearts desires on how much you think MJ messed his life up. No need to constantly derail threads attacking MJ fans or MJ.




mjscarousel,

Scorp is devious, sneaky and scheming. He always comes into ANY MJ thread with the intent purpose of undermining Michael and lifting up any and all members of the Jackson family except Michael and his children. He acts as if Michael has done him personal harm. What is so nauseating about Scorp is his that he pretends that he is a fan. His rhetoric is supposed to be "objective". YUCK! There is nothing objective about Scorp. He won't say a disparaging word about any of the other Jacksons, although Certain members of Michael's family have hurt him Much, Much, MUCH more-while he was alive and even more since his murder. Scorp is even worse than a "hater". He sticks a knife in Michael's back While pretending to be a fan.
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Reply #308 posted 08/02/17 1:31pm

alphastreet

Scorp said:

alphastreet said:

I think many people would be upset, it is really upsetting what was happening for years and it's sad that it took his untimely death for the general public to be upset, it was too late. It angered me how much his ass was being kissed following the death after people realized too late. Most of us fans including you took on the anger and isolation in these feelings, and it was a real thing, I can only imagine how much worse it was actually being him behind the smoke and mirrors. He had so much strength and humility through it all, but even his body and mind had enough at the end sad We all knew touring was going to kill him, and that was my first thought when this is it was announced but didn't want to miss the shows either, but never had a good feeling about it from the get go though ignored it....

Exactly....too late and gone too soon

And for me, I was upset throughout

And you're right, when Mike attended that press conference to announce those 02 concerts, he stared out in the crowd, then lowered his head down and that told me everything I needed to know, that man was tired and ready to give up the thrown

[Edited 8/2/17 11:26am]

Actually he told me and his audience watching in 2003 everything about touring. I would have been content with a final album and retirement if he was straight forward and honest about it, but even as a fan I see that is asking for too much anyways and a catch 22.

[Edited 8/2/17 13:34pm]

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Reply #309 posted 08/02/17 1:34pm

namepeace

Scorp said:

alphastreet said:

You just seem really angry with him and disappointed, that's all. You're not the first or last, but you seem to fixate over and over on it, and I sense you're feeling helpless about what happened to him cause he was such a prominent part of your life as with many, does that sound right? It's not a fun cycle to be trapped in, and in a sense the way he's been blacklisted feels close to home, that's why it's so horrific what happened to him too in a sense, maybe for you like seeing it happen to a family member you couldn't have reached out to, right? Just trying to understand since the topic has shifted onto michael rather than quincy, it seems like though I know you're genuinely upset, you're projecting those feelings onto (a small fraction of) fans online.

[Edited 8/1/17 8:33am]

Im upset on how the contradictions in this industry that pushed hin to a realm that was no good as well as the 95% horrific music thats on the airwaves and how an entire culture of authenticity has been shredded. Thats all it is

Im not projecting anything to anyone, this entertainment music industry is hanging on by a thread

If this has happened to another person other than Michael, I would be just as upset



There is only one mortal in the world that could have understood MJ's struggles, and that was Elvis. That's why it's important to have empathy for MJ.

I agree, it's important to recognize the demands placed on MJ. By those closest to him, and by the business himself. As ambitious as he was, he also had a lot thrust on him. He never really had a childhood. For the last 3 decades of his life he had a level of fame and adoration that must have been crushing. He may very well have felt constrained by his success.

I was (and remain) upset with him too, for a lot of reasons that I don't want to ignite here.

But at the end of the day, I understood that I could never understand what it was like, and what it cost, to be Michael Jackson.

twocents






Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #310 posted 08/02/17 1:35pm

alphastreet

namepeace said:

Scorp said:

Im upset on how the contradictions in this industry that pushed hin to a realm that was no good as well as the 95% horrific music thats on the airwaves and how an entire culture of authenticity has been shredded. Thats all it is

Im not projecting anything to anyone, this entertainment music industry is hanging on by a thread

If this has happened to another person other than Michael, I would be just as upset



There is only one mortal in the world that could have understood MJ's struggles, and that was Elvis. That's why it's important to have empathy for MJ.

I agree, it's important to recognize the demands placed on MJ. By those closest to him, and by the business himself. As ambitious as he was, he also had a lot thrust on him. He never really had a childhood. For the last 3 decades of his life he had a level of fame and adoration that must have been crushing. He may very well have felt constrained by his success.

I was (and remain) upset with him too, for a lot of reasons that I don't want to ignite here.

But at the end of the day, I understood that I could never understand what it was like, and what it cost, to be Michael Jackson.

twocents






Was angry with him too (for being a people pleaser and that costing him his life in the end) and bore that guilt because I know he was the victim as well in this, which makes it complicated, and those feelings isolated too if not addressed. At least we as fans have a platform to address our own personal affairs and feelings, but sure as hell hurt at the time that the poor man was not even given that without walking on eggshells anywhere. All that money and he couldn't buy peace of mind or anybody's trust with it.

[Edited 8/2/17 13:37pm]

[Edited 8/2/17 13:38pm]

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Reply #311 posted 08/02/17 2:19pm

PeteSilas

funny thing is, for all the talk of the drugs and how burned out he was, they say his actual physical health was pretty good and there weren't really any signs of heavy drug abuse when he died. That fuck up of a doctor deserves some blame, first of all, if he was a decent person he would have told Mj no about the propofol even if it cost him his money. Maybe MJ still would have went and done something else, who knows.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #312 posted 08/02/17 4:20pm

Scorp

Free2BMe said:

mjscarousal said:

This post shows you cannot be objective when it comes to Michael and you have a personal issue with him. The fact that you cannot not even admit there was something ethically wrong about a father emotionally and physically abusing their son tells me what I already suspected about you and this will be my last response to you, back on ignore you go. As I said earlier, there are plenty of Anti MJ boards you can go to and spill you guts till your hearts desires on how much you think MJ messed his life up. No need to constantly derail threads attacking MJ fans or MJ.

mjscarousel, Scorp is devious, sneaky and scheming. He always comes into ANY MJ thread with the intent purpose of undermining Michael and lifting up any and all members of the Jackson family except Michael and his children. He acts as if Michael has done him personal harm. What is so nauseating about Scorp is his that he pretends that he is a fan. His rhetoric is supposed to be "objective". YUCK! There is nothing objective about Scorp. He won't say a disparaging word about any of the other Jacksons, although Certain members of Michael's family have hurt him Much, Much, MUCH more-while he was alive and even more since his murder. Scorp is even worse than a "hater". He sticks a knife in Michael's back While pretending to be a fan.

Youre just mad

If everyone would have entered this thread and trashed Quincy Jones to your liking, u would not have said one word and would have enjoy it

Im not forcing anyone to read the posts I write, Im not forcing anyone to agree

This narrative that kicked off 30 years ago to this very month needs to be set aside so the world and this industry will promote healthy encouragement to refrain from trying to be something you're not, Im talking about not just black and white, but for all cultures of people being allowed to exist without feeling the need to distort their being, because it does not lead to anything good and leaves people who succumb to those expectations dealing with constant ridicule and scrutiny

Thats what I believe in and this everyday common person would tellI anyone who I happen to meet in life when that subject comes up, I would let them know how much The Creator loves them and to embrace that reality

[Edited 8/2/17 16:34pm]

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Reply #313 posted 08/02/17 6:02pm

alphastreet

Maybe you need to communicate that to all of hollywood and all of surgery and feature enhancing individuals of the world then, and stop making mj a mascot for your anger, it's not benefitting you or anybody else.

[Edited 8/2/17 18:09pm]

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Reply #314 posted 08/02/17 6:45pm

Scorp

PeteSilas said:

funny thing is, for all the talk of the drugs and how burned out he was, they say his actual physical health was pretty good and there weren't really any signs of heavy drug abuse when he died. That fuck up of a doctor deserves some blame, first of all, if he was a decent person he would have told Mj no about the propofol even if it cost him his money. Maybe MJ still would have went and done something else, who knows.

setting aside the entertainment value, and anyone can verify this for themselves....I don't want people to take my response without researching it for themselves........

during those rehearsals, a number of his costumes consisted of double layers clothing because he appeared to be emaciated you don't wear double layered clothing in room controle temperature right in the heart of Springtime if you're truly healthy....

take that doctor out of the equation and those shows still would not have happened during the period it was scheduled for

compared to another man of the same age who wasn't accustomed to performing professionally for an entire career, one can say he was healthy

but in terms of who he was himself and the fact he hadn't performed a concert tour in 12 years, he was not ready to do them shows......that's not being doom and gloom or negative, it's being realistic....

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Reply #315 posted 08/02/17 6:49pm

Scorp

alphastreet said:

Maybe you need to communicate that to all of hollywood and all of surgery and feature enhancing individuals of the world then, and stop making mj a mascot for your anger, it's not benefitting you or anybody else.

[Edited 8/2/17 18:09pm]

I don't believe in making human beings mascots......

and I mentioned earlier if this had happened to another individual who reached the same stature, I would feel the exact same way.....

10 years from now, we'll see if the music industry will still exist or not because as of 2016, the industry experienced record lows, all time lows in sales and distribution because.....it stopped being about the music a very long time ago.....whereas if you crack platinum status now, that's a landmark.....

You would think with the world population increasing exponientially over the past 25 years, with all the people out there, that record sales would be greater today than yesteryear but the exact opposite has happened....

[Edited 8/2/17 18:56pm]

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Reply #316 posted 08/02/17 7:27pm

PeteSilas

i'm not necessarily doubting you there, I don't know. but he was not is such bad health physically that death was imminent. they say he weighed 136 so he wasn't at a below normal weight at death, he looked frail but he did for most of his life. If he'd had to cancel, so what, it wouldn't be the end of the world or his life. Like any of us though, when we're in the thick of things we can't see how small the situations really are.

Scorp said:

PeteSilas said:

funny thing is, for all the talk of the drugs and how burned out he was, they say his actual physical health was pretty good and there weren't really any signs of heavy drug abuse when he died. That fuck up of a doctor deserves some blame, first of all, if he was a decent person he would have told Mj no about the propofol even if it cost him his money. Maybe MJ still would have went and done something else, who knows.

setting aside the entertainment value, and anyone can verify this for themselves....I don't want people to take my response without researching it for themselves........

during those rehearsals, a number of his costumes consisted of double layers clothing because he appeared to be emaciated you don't wear double layered clothing in room controle temperature right in the heart of Springtime if you're truly healthy....

take that doctor out of the equation and those shows still would not have happened during the period it was scheduled for

compared to another man of the same age who wasn't accustomed to performing professionally for an entire career, one can say he was healthy

but in terms of who he was himself and the fact he hadn't performed a concert tour in 12 years, he was not ready to do them shows......that's not being doom and gloom or negative, it's being realistic....

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #317 posted 08/02/17 8:44pm

mjscarousal

avatar

Free2BMe said:

mjscarousal said:



Scorp said:




mjscarousal said:




No


If he didn't have a dysfunctional childhood and a physically and emotionally abusive father he probably would not have grew into an emotionally damaged man. His father didn't tell him he was beautiful and that is probably why he didn't think he was. His father told him he was Ugly, "God you are so ugly" (this is what a father said to HIS child everyday) and you sit here and say that he should have embraced his beauty when from a toddler into teenhood Michaels father constantly told him he was ugly and inadequate????? I see you want to re-write history and blame everything on MJ because of your mental instability. EVERYTHING is all Michael's fault according to you and nobody has done anything questionable to him, keep being delusional hater.


[Edited 8/1/17 3:55am]





ahhhhh



the art of media manipulation.....



when Oprah asked him in that interview in 1993 about whether he started having plastic surgery was because he didn't like the way he looked during his teenage years...his exact words were "no not really, it's no big deal".....and he was not the only Jackson to be pushed to change their look...the majority of the family act, including the matriarch and patriach underwent some sort of surgery during that time



nobody was talking this stuff about beatdowns and abuse during OTW and Thriller when sales were meeting expectations.....this narrative did not kick in until 1988-1989.....and there's no way his father said that to him every single day.....that's media manipulation kicked in into overdrive



nobody was talking dysfunctionality during the years of Jackson Five prominence, the real dysfunction is how influence w/in a high profiled industry based on image building pushes people to contort their being to gain what they perceive to be the targeted mode of acceptance



when his sister was trying to attain the same level of fame he had, she claimed sexual abuse at the hands of her father (and I know right off jump street that wasn't true, that went through one ear and then went out the other), and then 10 years later by 1995, she refuted her own claims and said none of that was true and said she was coerced to say all that stuff



Joe Jackson was not perfect as no parent is, and he didn't take no stuff off his children, yeah, he was overbearing at times, and he made mistakes...no doubt about it, but this current narrative over the years has gone beyond the realm of natural decorum and entered this state of the point of no return



if Joe Jackson was not invested in the careers of his sons allowed them to remain a teenage act, as Tito Jackson said in that Jackson American Dream movie "they won't have any use for us, they're gonna just overdub us anyway"...if Joe Jackson didn't encourage them to grow professionally.....there never would have been a Enjoy Yourself or Show You The Way to Go, there would not have been a Destiny album or Triumph Album, and there would not have been an OTW album by the end of the 70s.....



When Thriller was released in 1982 and through 1983, Michael Jackson stood and presented himself as a grown man, which is a major reason why he garnered the support of a wave of adult record buyers to help that album become the greatest selling ever, it wasn't just kids and teenagers who bought that.....





[Edited 8/1/17 4:49am]




This post shows you cannot be objective when it comes to Michael and you have a personal issue with him. The fact that you cannot not even admit there was something ethically wrong about a father emotionally and physically abusing their son tells me what I already suspected about you and this will be my last response to you, back on ignore you go. As I said earlier, there are plenty of Anti MJ boards you can go to and spill you guts till your hearts desires on how much you think MJ messed his life up. No need to constantly derail threads attacking MJ fans or MJ.




mjscarousel,

Scorp is devious, sneaky and scheming. He always comes into ANY MJ thread with the intent purpose of undermining Michael and lifting up any and all members of the Jackson family except Michael and his children. He acts as if Michael has done him personal harm. What is so nauseating about Scorp is his that he pretends that he is a fan. His rhetoric is supposed to be "objective". YUCK! There is nothing objective about Scorp. He won't say a disparaging word about any of the other Jacksons, although Certain members of Michael's family have hurt him Much, Much, MUCH more-while he was alive and even more since his murder. Scorp is even worse than a "hater". He sticks a knife in Michael's back While pretending to be a fan.


Yea I know which is why I just try to ignore him. He is a instigater and likes to argue and attack MJ fans. Most of the discussions about MJ and the Jacksons on this site are not objective so I try to stay out of them. As soon as you fight back they quick to bitch about Stan wars when they instigate them. I've accepted this site hates MJ and loves attacking mj and Mj fans
Stand, you`ve been sitting much too long, there`s a permanent crease in your right or wrong.~Sly Stone
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Reply #318 posted 08/08/17 11:13pm

4You92

PeteSilas said:

interesting, leave it to the brits to say things that american news might try to overlook. the only person i recall mentioning the white skin was comedian paul mooney. I'm sure black folks discussed it but like i said, i wasn't around a lot of black folks at that point in time, i just kinda assumed they weren't saying anything. I don't remember reading anything about it. Of course by the time of Dangerous, leave it to oprah to ask him about the shit. He definitely did have vitiligo, no arguement there but what I've read is that you can misuse that bleaching cream enough so that it'll cause vitiligo, so, in that case, maybe he wouldn't have turned white if he'd never used the stuff. It's a sad story, and as for me, doesn't really ruin MJ for me. I tell you, i was broken hearted for a good while when he died, my stepdad said he cried and my stepdad is a mean motherfucker so for anyone to have that effect on him has to be meaningful in some way.



bboy87 said:




Scorp said:






and Nelson George wrote that AFTER he said this in an interview during the moment the BAD LP was released.








....and then wrote this the following March





Michaels vitiligo was not caused by bleach creams. Those procedures came in the late Bad era. Keep in mind this all happened after he spent about a decade wearing Dermablend to hide the light spots and undergoing PUVA treatments to restore the skin color. All of the actual medical and legal documentation shows that Mike spent years trying to restrict and cover over the disorder before he went the depigmentation route. People can have all types of therories and beliefs, but they are meaningless when the facts do not add up and evidence proves otherwise.

I see that this thread has turned into another Mike criticism thread and whining because of his eccentricities. Those can be discussed, but they are a part of a greater context and should be considered in that light.p. People get caught up in Thriller era, but they seem to forget that Mike was always different and eccentric and had been that way since he was a child. The media knew he was eccentric too, and for a while they had no problem with it. Mike was always around kids, already turned his family home into a mini Neverland, had tons of animals, wore disguises, etc, etc.

The elephant in the room with Michael is that the tide started to shift after he bought that catalogue. If anything, that was his biggest "mistake", if that's how you want to view it.

A lot of people who want to "keep it real" when it comes to Mike don't keep it real themselves and only want to discuss what they want, disregarding all the evidence that shows otherwise (Scorp).
[Edited 8/8/17 23:16pm]
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Reply #319 posted 08/09/17 3:35am

PeteSilas

shit, i thought you literally meant an elephant in his room, with mike it wouldn't surprise me. I love him to death. as far as the bleaching, i don't think anyone really knows, it's evident he had vitiligo, but he'd been appearing slightly lighter and he'd changed his nose by the time of thriller. I'm no doctor but i have read that one of the causes of vitiligo is the use of creams, so, i could see it being either one with MJ. I'd like to think he just had vitiligo and would hate to think he got it because he was using shit that would cause that but I don't think any of us know. Given his history, it's not a stretch, it really isn't, to think he used the creams intentionally and that caused the condition, chicken or the egg. It's sad either way.

4You92 said:

PeteSilas said:

interesting, leave it to the brits to say things that american news might try to overlook. the only person i recall mentioning the white skin was comedian paul mooney. I'm sure black folks discussed it but like i said, i wasn't around a lot of black folks at that point in time, i just kinda assumed they weren't saying anything. I don't remember reading anything about it. Of course by the time of Dangerous, leave it to oprah to ask him about the shit. He definitely did have vitiligo, no arguement there but what I've read is that you can misuse that bleaching cream enough so that it'll cause vitiligo, so, in that case, maybe he wouldn't have turned white if he'd never used the stuff. It's a sad story, and as for me, doesn't really ruin MJ for me. I tell you, i was broken hearted for a good while when he died, my stepdad said he cried and my stepdad is a mean motherfucker so for anyone to have that effect on him has to be meaningful in some way.

Michaels vitiligo was not caused by bleach creams. Those procedures came in the late Bad era. Keep in mind this all happened after he spent about a decade wearing Dermablend to hide the light spots and undergoing PUVA treatments to restore the skin color. All of the actual medical and legal documentation shows that Mike spent years trying to restrict and cover over the disorder before he went the depigmentation route. People can have all types of therories and beliefs, but they are meaningless when the facts do not add up and evidence proves otherwise. I see that this thread has turned into another Mike criticism thread and whining because of his eccentricities. Those can be discussed, but they are a part of a greater context and should be considered in that light.p. People get caught up in Thriller era, but they seem to forget that Mike was always different and eccentric and had been that way since he was a child. The media knew he was eccentric too, and for a while they had no problem with it. Mike was always around kids, already turned his family home into a mini Neverland, had tons of animals, wore disguises, etc, etc. The elephant in the room with Michael is that the tide started to shift after he bought that catalogue. If anything, that was his biggest "mistake", if that's how you want to view it. A lot of people who want to "keep it real" when it comes to Mike don't keep it real themselves and only want to discuss what they want, disregarding all the evidence that shows otherwise (Scorp). [Edited 8/8/17 23:16pm]

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #320 posted 08/09/17 3:37am

PeteSilas

i don't like demonizing anyone, so i tried to get all his points, he's got some real points and he has a reasoning behind it. The one thing I really disagree with, there was no way he'd have topped thriller under any circumstance, that was a phenomenon that you can't repeat at will, he tried, he failed, he would have failed no matter what and it's a shame that that was a hang up for him.

mjscarousal said:

Free2BMe said:
mjscarousel, Scorp is devious, sneaky and scheming. He always comes into ANY MJ thread with the intent purpose of undermining Michael and lifting up any and all members of the Jackson family except Michael and his children. He acts as if Michael has done him personal harm. What is so nauseating about Scorp is his that he pretends that he is a fan. His rhetoric is supposed to be "objective". YUCK! There is nothing objective about Scorp. He won't say a disparaging word about any of the other Jacksons, although Certain members of Michael's family have hurt him Much, Much, MUCH more-while he was alive and even more since his murder. Scorp is even worse than a "hater". He sticks a knife in Michael's back While pretending to be a fan.
Yea I know which is why I just try to ignore him. He is a instigater and likes to argue and attack MJ fans. Most of the discussions about MJ and the Jacksons on this site are not objective so I try to stay out of them. As soon as you fight back they quick to bitch about Stan wars when they instigate them. I've accepted this site hates MJ and loves attacking mj and Mj fans

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #321 posted 08/09/17 10:55am

mjscarousal

avatar

4You92 said:

PeteSilas said:

interesting, leave it to the brits to say things that american news might try to overlook. the only person i recall mentioning the white skin was comedian paul mooney. I'm sure black folks discussed it but like i said, i wasn't around a lot of black folks at that point in time, i just kinda assumed they weren't saying anything. I don't remember reading anything about it. Of course by the time of Dangerous, leave it to oprah to ask him about the shit. He definitely did have vitiligo, no arguement there but what I've read is that you can misuse that bleaching cream enough so that it'll cause vitiligo, so, in that case, maybe he wouldn't have turned white if he'd never used the stuff. It's a sad story, and as for me, doesn't really ruin MJ for me. I tell you, i was broken hearted for a good while when he died, my stepdad said he cried and my stepdad is a mean motherfucker so for anyone to have that effect on him has to be meaningful in some way.



bboy87 said:




Scorp said:






and Nelson George wrote that AFTER he said this in an interview during the moment the BAD LP was released.








....and then wrote this the following March





Michaels vitiligo was not caused by bleach creams. Those procedures came in the late Bad era. Keep in mind this all happened after he spent about a decade wearing Dermablend to hide the light spots and undergoing PUVA treatments to restore the skin color. All of the actual medical and legal documentation shows that Mike spent years trying to restrict and cover over the disorder before he went the depigmentation route. People can have all types of therories and beliefs, but they are meaningless when the facts do not add up and evidence proves otherwise.

I see that this thread has turned into another Mike criticism thread and whining because of his eccentricities. Those can be discussed, but they are a part of a greater context and should be considered in that light.p. People get caught up in Thriller era, but they seem to forget that Mike was always different and eccentric and had been that way since he was a child. The media knew he was eccentric too, and for a while they had no problem with it. Mike was always around kids, already turned his family home into a mini Neverland, had tons of animals, wore disguises, etc, etc.

The elephant in the room with Michael is that the tide started to shift after he bought that catalogue. If anything, that was his biggest "mistake", if that's how you want to view it.

A lot of people who want to "keep it real" when it comes to Mike don't keep it real themselves and only want to discuss what they want, disregarding all the evidence that shows otherwise (Scorp).
[Edited 8/8/17 23:16pm]


Best post in thread!
Stand, you`ve been sitting much too long, there`s a permanent crease in your right or wrong.~Sly Stone
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Reply #322 posted 08/09/17 3:43pm

214

4You92 said:

PeteSilas said:

interesting, leave it to the brits to say things that american news might try to overlook. the only person i recall mentioning the white skin was comedian paul mooney. I'm sure black folks discussed it but like i said, i wasn't around a lot of black folks at that point in time, i just kinda assumed they weren't saying anything. I don't remember reading anything about it. Of course by the time of Dangerous, leave it to oprah to ask him about the shit. He definitely did have vitiligo, no arguement there but what I've read is that you can misuse that bleaching cream enough so that it'll cause vitiligo, so, in that case, maybe he wouldn't have turned white if he'd never used the stuff. It's a sad story, and as for me, doesn't really ruin MJ for me. I tell you, i was broken hearted for a good while when he died, my stepdad said he cried and my stepdad is a mean motherfucker so for anyone to have that effect on him has to be meaningful in some way.

Michaels vitiligo was not caused by bleach creams. Those procedures came in the late Bad era. Keep in mind this all happened after he spent about a decade wearing Dermablend to hide the light spots and undergoing PUVA treatments to restore the skin color. All of the actual medical and legal documentation shows that Mike spent years trying to restrict and cover over the disorder before he went the depigmentation route. People can have all types of therories and beliefs, but they are meaningless when the facts do not add up and evidence proves otherwise. I see that this thread has turned into another Mike criticism thread and whining because of his eccentricities. Those can be discussed, but they are a part of a greater context and should be considered in that light.p. People get caught up in Thriller era, but they seem to forget that Mike was always different and eccentric and had been that way since he was a child. The media knew he was eccentric too, and for a while they had no problem with it. Mike was always around kids, already turned his family home into a mini Neverland, had tons of animals, wore disguises, etc, etc. The elephant in the room with Michael is that the tide started to shift after he bought that catalogue. If anything, that was his biggest "mistake", if that's how you want to view it. A lot of people who want to "keep it real" when it comes to Mike don't keep it real themselves and only want to discuss what they want, disregarding all the evidence that shows otherwise (Scorp). [Edited 8/8/17 23:16pm]

Great one.

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Reply #323 posted 08/10/17 1:58pm

Free2BMe

4You92 said:

PeteSilas said:

interesting, leave it to the brits to say things that american news might try to overlook. the only person i recall mentioning the white skin was comedian paul mooney. I'm sure black folks discussed it but like i said, i wasn't around a lot of black folks at that point in time, i just kinda assumed they weren't saying anything. I don't remember reading anything about it. Of course by the time of Dangerous, leave it to oprah to ask him about the shit. He definitely did have vitiligo, no arguement there but what I've read is that you can misuse that bleaching cream enough so that it'll cause vitiligo, so, in that case, maybe he wouldn't have turned white if he'd never used the stuff. It's a sad story, and as for me, doesn't really ruin MJ for me. I tell you, i was broken hearted for a good while when he died, my stepdad said he cried and my stepdad is a mean motherfucker so for anyone to have that effect on him has to be meaningful in some way.



bboy87 said:




Scorp said:






and Nelson George wrote that AFTER he said this in an interview during the moment the BAD LP was released.








....and then wrote this the following March





Michaels vitiligo was not caused by bleach creams. Those procedures came in the late Bad era. Keep in mind this all happened after he spent about a decade wearing Dermablend to hide the light spots and undergoing PUVA treatments to restore the skin color. All of the actual medical and legal documentation shows that Mike spent years trying to restrict and cover over the disorder before he went the depigmentation route. People can have all types of therories and beliefs, but they are meaningless when the facts do not add up and evidence proves otherwise.

I see that this thread has turned into another Mike criticism thread and whining because of his eccentricities. Those can be discussed, but they are a part of a greater context and should be considered in that light.p. People get caught up in Thriller era, but they seem to forget that Mike was always different and eccentric and had been that way since he was a child. The media knew he was eccentric too, and for a while they had no problem with it. Mike was always around kids, already turned his family home into a mini Neverland, had tons of animals, wore disguises, etc, etc.

The elephant in the room with Michael is that the tide started to shift after he bought that catalogue. If anything, that was his biggest "mistake", if that's how you want to view it.

A lot of people who want to "keep it real" when it comes to Mike don't keep it real themselves and only want to discuss what they want, disregarding all the evidence that shows otherwise (Scorp).
[Edited 8/8/17 23:16pm]


Great post!!! Thank you for this.
smile smile cool
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