SoulAlive said:

mnbvc said:

Shouldn't this analysis also suggest that most of the moderately talented Madonna's success is due to the creation of MTV? Without music videos Madonna would have never become a superstar in the same vein as Michael Jackson, Prince, Whitney Houston or George Michael because her "best" performances from her biggest decade don't emit talent to any extent that the aforementioned four do in the 1980s, specifically. And it sure seems that people like David Bowie and Grace Jones Donna Summer etc... had already done what Madonna was known for doing without being afforded MTV.

Music videos helped *every* artist in the 80s,not just Madonna it helped them all reach the widest audience possible,which meant more record sales.Would MJ's Thriller had made the same impact without the amazing music videos and the support of MTV? Same for Prince and Purple Rain.

Madonna is not as talented as MJ, Whitney or Prince, period.

They would have been successful without MTV and their earlier successes prove that, espcially MJ. Off the Wall was a big a hit and garner hits without MTV. Sure MTV helped those artists as well but they had way more raw talent than Madonna and would have been successful even without MTV. IMO, most of why Madonna is an Icon is because of the impact she made on MTV culture with videos and image, etc. AGAIN, MJ and Prince did too BUT they would have still been successful imo even without MTV.

[Edited 5/23/17 10:36am]

mjscarousal said:

SoulAlive said:

mnbvc said: Music videos helped *every* artist in the 80s,not just Madonna it helped them all reach the widest audience possible,which meant more record sales.Would MJ's Thriller had made the same impact without the amazing music videos and the support of MTV? Same for Prince and Purple Rain.

Madonna is not as talented as MJ, Whitney or Prince, period.

They would have been successful without MTV and their earlier successes prove that, espcially MJ. Off the Wall was a big a hit and garner hits without MTV. Sure MTV helped those artists as well but they had way more raw talent than Madonna and would have been successful even without MTV. IMO, most of why Madonna is an Icon is because of the impact she made on MTV culture with videos and image, etc. AGAIN, MJ and Prince did too BUT they would have still been successful imo even without MTV.

[Edited 5/23/17 10:36am]

You're missing a point that Soul made, though: Prince and Michael Jackson would not have been as
popular as they were without the aid of MTV. No one disputes their talent as surpassing Madonna's;
that's pretty damn evident.

Dasein said:

mjscarousal said:

Madonna is not as talented as MJ, Whitney or Prince, period.

They would have been successful without MTV and their earlier successes prove that, espcially MJ. Off the Wall was a big a hit and garner hits without MTV. Sure MTV helped those artists as well but they had way more raw talent than Madonna and would have been successful even without MTV. IMO, most of why Madonna is an Icon is because of the impact she made on MTV culture with videos and image, etc. AGAIN, MJ and Prince did too BUT they would have still been successful imo even without MTV.

[Edited 5/23/17 10:36am]

You're missing a point that Soul made, though: Prince and Michael Jackson would not have been as
popular as they were without the aid of MTV. No one disputes their talent as surpassing Madonna's;
that's pretty damn evident.

No your missing the point.

If you actually read my post, I acknowledged that they all benefited from MTV, however, MJ, Prince and Whitney had raw talent and were naturally gifted, they would have been superstars without MTV. MJ was ALREADY a superstar before MTV and lets not forget Whitney Houston the Voice and Funkster Prince. Again, I like Madonna and I considered her to be talented but she was no where near as talented as the aforementioned.

[Edited 5/23/17 17:01pm]

mjscarousal said:

Dasein said:

You're missing a point that Soul made, though: Prince and Michael Jackson would not have been as
popular as they were without the aid of MTV. No one disputes their talent as surpassing Madonna's;
that's pretty damn evident.

No your missing the point.

If you actually read my post, I acknowledged that they all benefited from MTV, however, MJ, Prince and Whitney had raw talent and were naturally gifted, they would have been superstars without MTV. MJ was ALREADY a superstar before MTV and lets not forget Whitney Houston the Voice and Funkster Prince. Again, I like Madonna and I considered her to be talented but she was no where near as talented as the aforementioned.

[Edited 5/23/17 17:01pm]

Nope. It's "you're" and you're not only missing the point, but making awful ones in the process.

Michael Jackson was not a superstar before Thriller; that's patently false. He became one after the
success of Thriller, as aided by MTV, which is the point Soul was making. So, in response to your
claim that Madonna owed her iconic status to MTV, we can say the same about MJ's superstar status
being directly linked to MTV even though he was enormously talented.

Off the Wall was a good album but it didn't set Michael Jackson apart from his peers in terms of
record sales and popularity. This means that we can safely infer that MTV had a big hand in helping
make Jackson insanely popular.

How old are you, by the way?

Dasein said:

Scorp said:

Dasein said:

Nope. It's "you're" and you're not only missing the point, but making awful ones in the process.

Michael Jackson was not a superstar before Thriller; that's patently false. He became one after the
success of Thriller, as aided by MTV, which is the point Soul was making. So, in response to your
claim that Madonna owed her iconic status to MTV, we can say the same about MJ's superstar status
being directly linked to MTV even though he was enormously talented.

Off the Wall was a good album but it didn't set Michael Jackson apart from his peers in terms of
record sales and popularity. This means that we can safely infer that MTV had a big hand in helping
make Jackson insanely popular.

How old are you, by the way?

Michael Jackson was a showbiz legend before he went solo He reached superstar status with Off The Wall

Omg, thank you.

Michael was a superstar when he was a kid singing with the Jackson Five ffs.

The younglings forget that the world existed before the information age.

Dasein is definitely trolling. That last comment about MJ is definitive proof.

mjscarousal said:

SoulAlive said:

mnbvc said: Music videos helped *every* artist in the 80s,not just Madonna it helped them all reach the widest audience possible,which meant more record sales.Would MJ's Thriller had made the same impact without the amazing music videos and the support of MTV? Same for Prince and Purple Rain.

Madonna is not as talented as MJ, Whitney or Prince, period.

They would have been successful without MTV and their earlier successes prove that, espcially MJ. Off the Wall was a big a hit and garner hits without MTV. Sure MTV helped those artists as well but they had way more raw talent than Madonna and would have been successful even without MTV. IMO, most of why Madonna is an Icon is because of the impact she made on MTV culture with videos and image, etc. AGAIN, MJ and Prince did too BUT they would have still been successful imo even without MTV.

[Edited 5/23/17 10:36am]

Great post!

Dasein said:

mjscarousal said:

No your missing the point.

If you actually read my post, I acknowledged that they all benefited from MTV, however, MJ, Prince and Whitney had raw talent and were naturally gifted, they would have been superstars without MTV. MJ was ALREADY a superstar before MTV and lets not forget Whitney Houston the Voice and Funkster Prince. Again, I like Madonna and I considered her to be talented but she was no where near as talented as the aforementioned.

[Edited 5/23/17 17:01pm]

Nope. It's "you're" and you're not only missing the point, but making awful ones in the process.

Michael Jackson was not a superstar before Thriller; that's patently false. He became one after the
success of Thriller, as aided by MTV, which is the point Soul was making. So, in response to your
claim that Madonna owed her iconic status to MTV, we can say the same about MJ's superstar status
being directly linked to MTV even though he was enormously talented.

Off the Wall was a good album but it didn't set Michael Jackson apart from his peers in terms of
record sales and popularity. This means that we can safely infer that MTV had a big hand in helping
make Jackson insanely popular.

How old are you, by the way?

So you think MTV was just dying to air music videos of black artists huh? Sounds like you could use a history book.

Scorp said:

Dasein said:

Nope. It's "you're" and you're not only missing the point, but making awful ones in the process.

Michael Jackson was not a superstar before Thriller; that's patently false. He became one after the
success of Thriller, as aided by MTV, which is the point Soul was making. So, in response to your
claim that Madonna owed her iconic status to MTV, we can say the same about MJ's superstar status
being directly linked to MTV even though he was enormously talented.

Off the Wall was a good album but it didn't set Michael Jackson apart from his peers in terms of
record sales and popularity. This means that we can safely infer that MTV had a big hand in helping
make Jackson insanely popular.

How old are you, by the way?

Michael Jackson was a showbiz legend before he went solo He reached superstar status with Off The Wall

The end, pretty much this.

SeventeenDayze said:

Dasein said:

Nope. It's "you're" and you're not only missing the point, but making awful ones in the process.

Michael Jackson was not a superstar before Thriller; that's patently false. He became one after the
success of Thriller, as aided by MTV, which is the point Soul was making. So, in response to your
claim that Madonna owed her iconic status to MTV, we can say the same about MJ's superstar status
being directly linked to MTV even though he was enormously talented.

Off the Wall was a good album but it didn't set Michael Jackson apart from his peers in terms of
record sales and popularity. This means that we can safely infer that MTV had a big hand in helping
make Jackson insanely popular.

How old are you, by the way?

So you think MTV was just dying to air music videos of black artists huh? Sounds like you could use a history book.

Thank you... I am not even going waste my time going back in forth with that poster.

mjscarousal said:

SeventeenDayze said:

So you think MTV was just dying to air music videos of black artists huh? Sounds like you could use a history book.

Thank you... I am not even going waste my time going back in forth with that poster.

Yeah I think there's some serious trolling going on in this thread. I mean, instead of being serious about answering questions he pointed out a silly typo in a post? What a joke...

SeventeenDayze said:

mjscarousal said:

Thank you... I am not even going waste my time going back in forth with that poster.

Yeah I think there's some serious trolling going on in this thread. I mean, instead of being serious about answering questions he pointed out a silly typo in a post? What a joke...

When your a troll that is what you do and he got the nerve to ask me about my age but he is the one foolishly arguing that MJ was not a super star before Thriller.

[Edited 5/25/17 19:38pm]

heathilly said:

I dont get the sense that shes being erased from history. Its more of a matter that she was a female pop star who made pop rnb music and was the sister of michael jackson. None of those three things are really heralded by critics so she has three things against her really plus shes older and she sold her self as a sex symbol. And women sex symbol arnt alowed to age. And shes not bigger than her brother or madonna ( her closest female comparsion) so she cant command respect by sheer sales because she isnt number 1 in any regard. Also her level of talent isnt anything to write home about. But I will say she was wrongly blackballed after the superbowl.

[Edited 5/20/17 7:32am]

.

I agree with this; you made many valid points.

.

I also give Janet credit for making the most of the talent she had. her voice is nothing exceptional - nowhere in the stratosphere of Aretha or Gladys or Chaka or Teena OR..

(well.. y'all get my point)

she had just enough "vocal ability" & style & charisma.

it also didn't hurt that she had 6 brothers come before her & "make a dent" in the music industry as world-famous, world-class performers.

.

would Janet have become "global" without 2 certain, very talented musicians in their own right, who, about 4 years prior, had been kicked out of a great band just as that band was peaking??

my own personal answer to that question is : not as likely.

.

Janet can claim - or anyone can claim on her behalf if they want to - that she is a legitimate "pop music superstar". the record sales & the sold-out tours confirm that status.

.

I would be happy to achieve 1% of the success Janet has. she had a good run, why would she not be content to focus on her newborn baby, live her live doing whatever she wanted with whomever she wanted & however she wanted? Janet's place in pop culture history is secure

mjscarousal said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Yeah I think there's some serious trolling going on in this thread. I mean, instead of being serious about answering questions he pointed out a silly typo in a post? What a joke...

When your a troll that is what you do and he got the nerve to ask me about my age but he is the one foolishly arguing that MJ was not a super star before Thriller.

[Edited 5/25/17 19:38pm]

Exactly! The whole reason I brought up MTV was despite MJ's success the network refused to play black music for the longest and this was astonishing given his prominence in the industry. Revisionist history is really at play here in this thread.

SeventeenDayze said:

mjscarousal said:

When your a troll that is what you do and he got the nerve to ask me about my age but he is the one foolishly arguing that MJ was not a super star before Thriller.

[Edited 5/25/17 19:38pm]

Exactly! The whole reason I brought up MTV was despite MJ's success the network refused to play black music for the longest and this was astonishing given his prominence in the industry. Revisionist history is really at play here in this thread.

This is the org sis, they hate MJ here, they think its 1984 still. They don't know how to be objective when talking about MJ. You don't have to be a fan of his but c'mon to say he wasn't a super star before Thriller and to diminish his accomplishments? They always do this to the Jacksons here (even Janet, stay trashing her talent and accomplishments) but then these same people turn around and praise other mediocre artists. I will never understand it.

[Edited 5/25/17 22:27pm]

mjscarousal said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Exactly! The whole reason I brought up MTV was despite MJ's success the network refused to play black music for the longest and this was astonishing given his prominence in the industry. Revisionist history is really at play here in this thread.

This is the org sis, they hate MJ here, they think its 1984 still. They don't know how to be objective when talking about MJ. You don't have to be a fan of his but c'mon to say he wasn't a super star before Thriller and to diminish his accomplishments? They always do this to the Jacksons here (even Janet, stay trashing her talent and accomplishments) but then these same people turn around and praise other mediocre artists. I will never understand it.

[Edited 5/25/17 22:27pm]

Yeah they are the ones who think it's impossible to be able to appreciate both artists at the same time and want to think there's some kind of rivalry. It's as if it's against the law to like two black artists at the same time. Both were unique and neither of them will have anyone replace them in music history and culture.

mjscarousal said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Exactly! The whole reason I brought up MTV was despite MJ's success the network refused to play black music for the longest and this was astonishing given his prominence in the industry. Revisionist history is really at play here in this thread.

This is the org sis, they hate MJ here, they think its 1984 still. They don't know how to be objective when talking about MJ. You don't have to be a fan of his but c'mon to say he wasn't a super star before Thriller and to diminish his accomplishments? They always do this to the Jacksons here (even Janet, stay trashing her talent and accomplishments) but then these same people turn around and praise other mediocre artists. I will never understand it.

[Edited 5/25/17 22:27pm]

What I find appalling is that people seem oblivious to anything he accomplished before he went solo, hell even before he hit puberty.

Go figure.

babynoz said:

mjscarousal said:

This is the org sis, they hate MJ here, they think its 1984 still. They don't know how to be objective when talking about MJ. You don't have to be a fan of his but c'mon to say he wasn't a super star before Thriller and to diminish his accomplishments? They always do this to the Jacksons here (even Janet, stay trashing her talent and accomplishments) but then these same people turn around and praise other mediocre artists. I will never understand it.

[Edited 5/25/17 22:27pm]

What I find appalling is that people seem oblivious to anything he accomplished before he went solo, hell even before he hit puberty.

Go figure.

Maybe you had to be there...

purplethunder3121 said:

babynoz said:

What I find appalling is that people seem oblivious to anything he accomplished before he went solo, hell even before he hit puberty.

Go figure.

Maybe you had to be there...

I guess so....and I was,

I respectfully disagree it's unfair when people suggest that the main reason for Madonna's success was music videos.That's bullshit.But if you really believe that,then you must acknowledge that other artists in the 80s benefitted from music videos,too.'Thriller' is a wonderful album,but there is no doubt that the music videos played a huge part in its success.Would it have been as successful without the videos? We don't know,but let's not pretend that Madonna's success was only because of her videos.

mjscarousal said:

SoulAlive said:

mnbvc said: Music videos helped *every* artist in the 80s,not just Madonna it helped them all reach the widest audience possible,which meant more record sales.Would MJ's Thriller had made the same impact without the amazing music videos and the support of MTV? Same for Prince and Purple Rain.

Madonna is not as talented as MJ, Whitney or Prince, period.

They would have been successful without MTV and their earlier successes prove that, espcially MJ. Off the Wall was a big a hit and garner hits without MTV. Sure MTV helped those artists as well but they had way more raw talent than Madonna and would have been successful even without MTV. IMO, most of why Madonna is an Icon is because of the impact she made on MTV culture with videos and image, etc. AGAIN, MJ and Prince did too BUT they would have still been successful imo even without MTV.

Nobody said that Madonna was as talented as those other artists but to suggest that people bought her records and made her famous strictly because of her music videos is ridiculous.Great songs like "Holiday" or "Into The Groove" would have found an audience anyway.

mjscarousal said:

Dasein said:

You're missing a point that Soul made, though: Prince and Michael Jackson would not have been as
popular as they were without the aid of MTV. No one disputes their talent as surpassing Madonna's;
that's pretty damn evident.

No your missing the point.

If you actually read my post, I acknowledged that they all benefited from MTV, however, MJ, Prince and Whitney had raw talent and were naturally gifted, they would have been superstars without MTV. MJ was ALREADY a superstar before MTV and lets not forget Whitney Houston the Voice and Funkster Prince. Again, I like Madonna and I considered her to be talented but she was no where near as talented as the aforementioned.

SoulAlive said:

I respectfully disagree it's unfair when people suggest that the main reason for Madonna's success was music videos.That's bullshit.But if you really believe that,then you must acknowledge that other artists in the 80s benefitted from music videos,too.'Thriller' is a wonderful album,but there is no doubt that the music videos played a huge part in its success.Would it have been as successful without the videos? We don't know,but let's not pretend that Madonna's success was only because of her videos.

mjscarousal said:

Madonna is not as talented as MJ, Whitney or Prince, period.

They would have been successful without MTV and their earlier successes prove that, espcially MJ. Off the Wall was a big a hit and garner hits without MTV. Sure MTV helped those artists as well but they had way more raw talent than Madonna and would have been successful even without MTV. IMO, most of why Madonna is an Icon is because of the impact she made on MTV culture with videos and image, etc. AGAIN, MJ and Prince did too BUT they would have still been successful imo even without MTV.

Your repeating what I said already. I said that MJ, Prince, Whitney benefited from MTV too. I never said that Madonnas success was only from videos, never said that. I said she had a big impact on MTV culture but of course she made a huge impact on other things as well. I was referring too the MTV channel, MTV award shows, MTVperformances, MTVvideos, MTV specials (a combination of these things) but then again so did MJ, so did Prince, however, I think Madonna really utilized MTV to monopolize talents she was exceptional in but if MTV had not existed she would have fell short in other areas of talent that I think would have made it harder for her to break through stardom pre MTV era. I think that Whitney, MJ and Prince would have still been super stars without MTV. I really respect Madonna, she a BAD Bish but she is not as talented as MJ, Prince, Whitney and I don't think that takes anything away from her. She still is talented in her own right but lets be objective. Madonna has said HERSELF that MJ, Prince and Whitney are more talented than her. That is why I like Madonna, she knows her lane and she is not stupid.

[Edited 5/26/17 20:17pm]

SoulAlive said:

Nobody said that Madonna was as talented as those other artists but to suggest that people bought her records and made her famous strictly because of her music videos is ridiculous.Great songs like "Holiday" or "Into The Groove" would have found an audience anyway.

mjscarousal said:

No your missing the point.

If you actually read my post, I acknowledged that they all benefited from MTV, however, MJ, Prince and Whitney had raw talent and were naturally gifted, they would have been superstars without MTV. MJ was ALREADY a superstar before MTV and lets not forget Whitney Houston the Voice and Funkster Prince. Again, I like Madonna and I considered her to be talented but she was no where near as talented as the aforementioned.

Um a poster made a point and I simply agreed with it, no need to get offensive. I know you a stan and all (I like Madonna by the way and I am a fan). Of course Holiday and In the Groove are great songs and she has a great catalog of classics, nobody was questioning her catalog.

[Edited 5/26/17 20:19pm]