jjhunsecker said:

RodeoSchro said:

I get that but I'm honestly curious.

Let's say there was a Rap and Hip Hop Hall of Fame that started out with inductees like Tupac, Snoop Dogg, Lil Wayne, Drake (I'm naming all the rappers I know LOL, not necessarily those people think are good!), Chuck D, Grandmaster Flash, Puff Daddy, Jay-Z Kurtis Blow and Birdman. And then someone like Bruce Springsteen was inducted because if you really stretch it, you can say he "rapped" lyrics in maybe 10% of his songs, would you buy that as a rationalefor putting him in a Rap and Hip Hop Hall of Fame?

Bruce Springsteen doesn't perform rap or hip-hop music, so if you were limiting such an award to that field, then he would be out of place . He also doesn't perform jam band music like the Dead or Phish, or Prog Rock like ELP or King Crimson or Country Rock like the Pure Prairie League or Southern Rock like 38 Special or Molly Hatchet. Perhaps to me, "Rock and Roll" is just a broader field than white dudes with electric guitars

Then why doesn't, say, Snoop Dogg call what he does "rock and roll" instead of "rap"?

If you listen to country music from the 2000's to today, you will find more rock and roll in it than you'll find in what is called "rock and roll" today. But no one is saying Brad Paisley or Eric Church should be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Journey had hits, that is it. They didn't write great songs.

RodeoSchro said:

Then why doesn't, say, Snoop Dogg call what he does "rock and roll" instead of "rap"?

If you listen to country music from the 2000's to today, you will find more rock and roll in it than you'll find in what is called "rock and roll" today. But no one is saying Brad Paisley or Eric Church should be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

I listen to a local classic rock station sometimes and I hear Journey, Billy Joel, Ratt, Eagles, Van Halen, Bryan Adams, Van Halen, Kansas, The Cars, Ohio Players, Def Leppard, Elton John, War, Pink Floyd, Steve Miller, Fleetwood Mac, Bon Jovi, Loverboy, The Clash, & Phil Collins. So you're saying all of these acts have an identical sound that makes them rock? The Cars don't sound like Def Leppard to me. What about bands like Korn & Limp Bizkit that has a rock sound with rapping on top of it? Some rap acts like Run DMC & Beastie Boys also have a rock sound on some songs. Run DMC has been credited as resurrecting Aerosmith's career. Who says rock or any other type of music has to have a singer on it to make it what it is? Johnny Cash sometimes talked on songs, does that not make it country? When Willie Nelson made jazz albums and Dolly Parton did disco, they were still called country singers. There were country singers like Barbara Mandrell, Bobbie Gentry, & Ronnie Milsap that had R&B in their sound. In many genres, there's different sounds and not just an identical one. Even in early rock there's different sounds. Fats Domino didn't sound like Elvis Presley & Chuck Berry, and they didn't sound like the Everly Brothers, Little Richard, or Chubby Checker. They were all considered rock n roll. Quicksilver Messenger Service didn't sound like The Beatles and so on.

2freaky4church1 said:

Journey had hits, that is it. They didn't write great songs.

Apparently they're great songs to the people who bought the records. People are not going to buy a record they don't like. Many songs played on the radio flop, they don't even make it to #99 on the Hot 100. A small percentage become big hits. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean anything. I imagine you don't like Lawrence Welk, yet PBS still reruns his show every Saturday. So there's an audience for him. Music is for people to enjoy and if people like it, that's all that matters. It doesn't matter if someone thinks an act is cool or that some paid person who gets free records writes some advertising about it (critics). Being cool & hip doesn't have anything to do with enjoying a performer.

MickyDolenz said:

MickyDolenz said:

People think Little Yaghty is great. ew.

RodeoSchro said:

jjhunsecker said:

RodeoSchro said:

Then why doesn't, say, Snoop Dogg call what he does "rock and roll" instead of "rap"?

If you listen to country music from the 2000's to today, you will find more rock and roll in it than you'll find in what is called "rock and roll" today. But no one is saying Brad Paisley or Eric Church should be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Actually, several hip hop groups like Run DMC and Public Enemy have linked themselves to rock. Under your criteria , would any of the following belong in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame : Ray Charles , James Brown, Stevie Wonder, Gladys Knight , EWF, Sam Cooke, Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, or The Drifters

No. Those are some incredible artists, but they aren't rock and roll artists.

Run-DMC "linking" themselves to rock doesn't make them rock and roll. Just as Pat Boone recording a heavy metal album doesn't make him rock and roll, either.

All this boils down to that same argument some judge made about pornography back in the Dark Ages: Maybe I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

Same for me with rock and roll. I can attempt to define it, but the best thing I can say is that I know it when I hear it. But it's art - what I hear might not be what you hear. So in the end, neither of us is right or wrong.

Except....we should all agree that Nirvana took all the fun out of rock and roll! (GunsnHalen, that was for you, bud! )

2freaky4church1 said:

Journey had hits, that is it. They didn't write great songs.

yes,they did and I've already named a few

RodeoSchro said:

Run-DMC "linking" themselves to rock doesn't make them rock and roll. Just as Pat Boone recording a heavy metal album doesn't make him rock and roll, either.

Pat Boone never made a heavy metal album. He recorded some metal songs in a big band jazz style. That's more like Gloria Gaynor doing the Jackson 5's Never Can Say Goodbye as a uptempo disco song instead of a ballad like the original or Susan Wong doing Billie Jean as bossa nova. So that is not the same thing as Run DMC.

MickyDolenz said:

RodeoSchro said:

Run-DMC "linking" themselves to rock doesn't make them rock and roll. Just as Pat Boone recording a heavy metal album doesn't make him rock and roll, either.

Pat Boone never made a heavy metal album. He recorded some metal songs in a big band jazz style. That's more like Gloria Gaynor doing the Jackson 5's Never Can Say Goodbye as a uptempo disco song instead of a ballad like the original or Susan Wong doing Billie Jean as bossa nova. So that is not the same thing as Run DMC.

What rock nd roll song did Run-DMC record? All I know about is them lending some raps to a remake of one of Aerosmith's songs, "Walk This Way".

RodeoSchro said:

What rock nd roll song did Run-DMC record? All I know about is them lending some raps to a remake of one of Aerosmith's songs, "Walk This Way".

They've had rock songs on their albums since their debut in 1984. Walk This Way is on their 3rd album. Eddie Martinez was usually their guitarist.

RodeoSchro said:

jjhunsecker said:

RodeoSchro said:

No. Those are some incredible artists, but they aren't rock and roll artists.

Run-DMC "linking" themselves to rock doesn't make them rock and roll. Just as Pat Boone recording a heavy metal album doesn't make him rock and roll, either.

All this boils down to that same argument some judge made about pornography back in the Dark Ages: Maybe I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

Same for me with rock and roll. I can attempt to define it, but the best thing I can say is that I know it when I hear it. But it's art - what I hear might not be what you hear. So in the end, neither of us is right or wrong.

Except....we should all agree that Nirvana took all the fun out of rock and roll! (GunsnHalen, that was for you, bud! )

So again, your definition of " rock and roll music " seems to be limited to " white dudes -and maybe Hendrix - with electric guitars ". I simply embrace a broader definition of the term. And BTW- "All Apologies " by Nirvana is one of the greatest songs of the last 25 years

Are you kidding? No one ever rocked harder or better in my opinion than Prince. It's not like you to play the race card like that. Bummer.

And all apologies to you, but that Nirvana song sucks. I couldn't get through two minutes of it. So damn depressing. It's the perfect illustration of how Nirvana killed rock and roll. Good lord, I'm going to need to listen to some rock and roll by Prince, Jimi, Lenny Kravitz and Buddy Miles at maximum volume to get that crap out of my thought system!

RodeoSchro said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Journey had hits, that is it. They didn't write great songs.

Songs become hits because so many people think they are great songs. They aren't going to check with you first.

You haven't checked into rehab yet?

jjhunsecker said:

I still maintain that Journey would be pretty much forgotten now if not for "The Sopranos "

damn, you really got a hard on for journey, well, i'm not gonna fucking defend them thats for goddamned sure but some of their tunes are staples of cover bands and you won't get through a night at a dueling piano without don't stop beiieving.

PeteSilas said:

jjhunsecker said:

I still maintain that Journey would be pretty much forgotten now if not for "The Sopranos "

damn, you really got a hard on for journey, well, i'm not gonna fucking defend them thats for goddamned sure but some of their tunes are staples of cover bands and you won't get through a night at a dueling piano without don't stop beiieving.

I just think they're a mediocre band, and I thought that in 1978. Compared to Led Zeppelin, The Stones, The Who, The Faces, Jimi Hendrix, Talking Heads, The Allman Brothers , J Geils Band....they simply don't compare. Even Foghat or BTO were better than Journey

jjhunsecker said:

I still maintain that Journey would be pretty much forgotten now if not for "The Sopranos "

I hear Journey on the classic rock station, played in stores/malls, the adult contemporary/light rock station, and the oldies station that plays Top 40 hits from the 1970s-early 1990s. I think Journey is popular with karaoke too. Journey music is also in Grand Theft Auto, which is likely a way bigger and younger audience than a TV show, especially one on cable, which most people do not have. They have regular free TV.

.

I went over to Youtube. Do you really think this many people watched that show? I'm not even adding the views from fan uploaded videos. Videos from the pre-Steve Perry lineup don't have that many views though, probably because those 3 albums didn't have any hit singles, so don't get played today on oldies and classic rock stations or used in entertainment today. I couldn't find one that even had a million views. Those songs average in the tens of thousands.

.

Faithfully - 66,128,551
Separate Ways - 34,115,057
Open Arms - 24,407,036
Don't Stop Believin' (audio) - 11,407,926
Don't Stop Believin' (Live in Houston) - 42,905,209
Dont Stop Believin' (audio - Arnel Pineda lead) - 29,305,893
When You Love A Woman - 21,158,037
Lovin', Touchin', Squeezin' - 6,270,019

jjhunsecker said:

I just think they're a mediocre band, and I thought that in 1978. Compared to Led Zeppelin, The Stones, The Who, The Faces, Jimi Hendrix, Talking Heads, The Allman Brothers , J Geils Band....they simply don't compare. Even Foghat or BTO were better than Journey

That has nothing to do with mainstream popularity. Before Thriller, the Saturday Night Fever Soundtrack was the biggest selling album, and a couple of days ago, there was a Grammy tribute to the Bee Gees on CBS. It's doubtful that ABC/CBS/NBC would broadcast a special for Talking Heads and The Allman Brothers. The most likely of the acts you listed is the Rolling Stones and I don't see that really. I see them being shown on PBS as far as free TV goes. So that means more people liked that than those groups. Those acts you listed are mainly popular with boomer era white rock fans, but Saturday Night Fever sold to many races and different kinds of people.

MickyDolenz said:

jjhunsecker said:

I still maintain that Journey would be pretty much forgotten now if not for "The Sopranos "

I hear Journey on the classic rock station, played in stores/malls, the adult contemporary/light rock station, and the oldies station that plays Top 40 hits from the 1970s-early 1990s. I think Journey is popular with karaoke too. Journey music is also in Grand Theft Auto, which is likely a way bigger and younger audience than a TV show, especially one on cable, which most people do not have. They have regular free TV.

.

I went over to Youtube. Do you really think this many people watched that show? I'm not even adding the views from fan uploaded videos. Videos from the pre-Steve Perry lineup don't have that many views though, probably because those 3 albums didn't have any hit singles, so don't get played today on oldies and classic rock stations or used in entertainment today. I couldn't find one that even had a million views. Those songs average in the tens of thousands.

.

Faithfully - 66,128,551
Separate Ways - 34,115,057
Open Arms - 24,407,036
Don't Stop Believin' (audio) - 11,407,926
Don't Stop Believin' (Live in Houston) - 42,905,209
Dont Stop Believin' (audio - Arnel Pineda lead) - 29,305,893
When You Love A Woman - 21,158,037
Lovin', Touchin', Squeezin' - 6,270,019

"The Sopranos" was one of the biggest shows ever on cable, and outranked many NETWORK shows in terms of audience. And even more importantly, it had cache- the use of that song in one of the most famous finales in television history brought Journey back into the public consciousness. (Every year Sting hosts a big benefit concert for the rainforests in NY, and gets huge stars to perform- one year it was 80s night, and the night ended with Bruce Springsteen, Elton John, Lady Gaga, Sting and others singing "Don't Stop Believing". You might be able to see that on YouTube. I doubt if they would have picked that song if "The Sopranos" hadn't have revived it )

jjhunsecker said:

"The Sopranos" was one of the biggest shows ever on cable, and outranked many NETWORK shows in terms of audience. And even more importantly, it had cache- the use of that song in one of the most famous finales in television history brought Journey back into the public consciousness. (Every year Sting hosts a big benefit concert for the rainforests in NY, and gets huge stars to perform- one year it was 80s night, and the night ended with Bruce Springsteen, Elton John, Lady Gaga, Sting and others singing "Don't Stop Believing". You might be able to see that on YouTube. I doubt if they would have picked that song if "The Sopranos" hadn't have revived it )

So how do you explain the views of the other songs? As an individual video, Faithfully has more views than Don't Stop Believing. I looked up some other old hits on Youtube. Did their views came from The Sopranos too?

.

Milli Vanilli - Girl I'm Gonna Miss You: 34,353,438
Phil Collins - In The Air Tonight: 123,954,116
Whitney Houston - I Will Always Love You: 400,535,156
Vanilla Ice - Ice Ice Baby: 166,216,166

Kenny G - The Moment: 37,728,190
Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone: 27,014,421
Air Supply - All Out Of Love: 45,565,739
New Kids On The Block - You Got It (The Right Stuff): 19,427,376
Chicago - Hard To Say I'm Sorry: 55,970,117
Foreigner - I Want To Know What Love Is: 48,483,412
Survivor - Eye Of The Tiger: 274,911,324
New Edition - If It Isn't Love: 36,299,518

Bobby Brown - Every Little Step: 34,181,676
Michael Jackson - Remember The Time: 203,478,280
Young MC - Bust A Move: 19,448,050
Twisted Sister - I Wanna Rock: 36,586,712
MC Hammer - U Can't Touch This: 310,034,970
Toto - Africa: 181,356,638
Kansas - Dust In The Wind: 75,070,539

Rob Base & DJ EZ Rock - It Takes Two: 12,871,412
LL Cool J - I Need Love: 17,295,481

Kenny Rogers - The Gambler: 22,338,627
Warrant - Cherry Pie: 27,761,930

Europe - The Final Countdown: 317,618,988

MickyDolenz said:

jjhunsecker said:

"The Sopranos" was one of the biggest shows ever on cable, and outranked many NETWORK shows in terms of audience. And even more importantly, it had cache- the use of that song in one of the most famous finales in television history brought Journey back into the public consciousness. (Every year Sting hosts a big benefit concert for the rainforests in NY, and gets huge stars to perform- one year it was 80s night, and the night ended with Bruce Springsteen, Elton John, Lady Gaga, Sting and others singing "Don't Stop Believing". You might be able to see that on YouTube. I doubt if they would have picked that song if "The Sopranos" hadn't have revived it )

So how do you explain the views of the other songs? As an individual video, Faithfully has more views than Don't Stop Believing. I looked up some other old hits on Youtube. Did their views came from The Sopranos too?

.

Milli Vanilli - Girl I'm Gonna Miss You: 34,353,438
Phil Collins - In The Air Tonight: 123,954,116
Whitney Houston - I Will Always Love You: 400,535,156
Vanilla Ice - Ice Ice Baby: 166,216,166

Kenny G - The Moment: 37,728,190
Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone: 27,014,421
Air Supply - All Out Of Love: 45,565,739
New Kids On The Block - You Got It (The Right Stuff): 19,427,376
Chicago - Hard To Say I'm Sorry: 55,970,117
Foreigner - I Want To Know What Love Is: 48,483,412
Survivor - Eye Of The Tiger: 274,911,324
New Edition - If It Isn't Love: 36,299,518

Bobby Brown - Every Little Step: 34,181,676
Michael Jackson - Remember The Time: 203,478,280
Young MC - Bust A Move: 19,448,050
Twisted Sister - I Wanna Rock: 36,586,712
MC Hammer - U Can't Touch This: 310,034,970
Toto - Africa: 181,356,638
Kansas - Dust In The Wind: 75,070,539

Rob Base & DJ EZ Rock - It Takes Two: 12,871,412
LL Cool J - I Need Love: 17,295,481

Kenny Rogers - The Gambler: 22,338,627
Warrant - Cherry Pie: 27,761,930

Europe - The Final Countdown: 317,618,988

I'm just saying that "The Sopranos" gave that song , and Journey, a whole new lease on life . Back in 1978 -83, my friends who loved music knew Journey were second rate, AT BEST. Popular does not mean GOOD. (And that list of songs- with the exception of Phill Collins and Whitney Houston, are all AWFUL songs ! No accounting for taste I guess...)

jjhunsecker said:

I'm just saying that "The Sopranos" gave that song , and Journey, a whole new lease on life . Back in 1978 -83, my friends who loved music knew Journey were second rate, AT BEST. Popular does not mean GOOD. (And that list of songs- with the exception of Phill Collins and Whitney Houston, are all AWFUL songs ! No accounting for taste I guess...)

I'm pretty sure that many people would say that what you like is not good. I used to follow the Billboard charts, so I know what was was popular. I knew what songs to look for to put on the list. Again, what you like has nothing to do with what's popular with the general public or what sells the most. So you saying that Journey is popular because of The Sopranos makes no sense. You probably don't like The Monkees either, yet their show is still rerun, so they always get a new younger audience. This younger audience shows up at The Monkees convention every year. Music is for everybody, not just for music snobs. I find it interesting that the music that some people think is cool is generally not the most popular in the mainstream. Maybe they're jealous, so they put down whatever is popular. It was rock fans who started the "disco sucks" thing and had the riot at the baseball. They didn't like that disco was more popular than rock was and that it was everywhere. Boomer rock fans don't like that hip hop has replaced it in popularity with the younger generations.

MickyDolenz said:

jjhunsecker said:

I'm just saying that "The Sopranos" gave that song , and Journey, a whole new lease on life . Back in 1978 -83, my friends who loved music knew Journey were second rate, AT BEST. Popular does not mean GOOD. (And that list of songs- with the exception of Phill Collins and Whitney Houston, are all AWFUL songs ! No accounting for taste I guess...)

I'm pretty sure that many people would say that what you like is not good. I used to follow the Billboard charts, so I know what was was popular. I knew what songs to look for to put on the list. Again, what you like has nothing to do with what's popular with the general public or what sells the most. So you saying that Journey is popular because of The Sopranos makes no sense. You probably don't like The Monkees either, yet their show is still rerun, so they always get a new younger audience. This younger audience shows up at The Monkees convention every year. Music is for everybody, not just for music snobs. I find it interesting that the music that some people think is cool is generally not the most popular in the mainstream. Maybe they're jealous, so they put down whatever is popular. It was rock fans who started the "disco sucks" thing and had the riot at the baseball. They didn't like that disco was more popular than rock was and that it was everywhere. Boomer rock fans don't like that hip hop has replaced it in popularity with the younger generations.

Actually, I quite like the Monkees- they had great songs from brilliant writers, and excellent musicianship from the Wrecking Crew.

I know what's popular, and I know that a lot of it isn't that great- like most of the songs on that list. It's just my opinion, and I'm sure there are people who like those songs who don't think Bob Dylan or P-Funk or Muddy Waters or Merle Haggard is that great , either. On the other hand, some of the stuff I happen to think was GREAT, like the Beatles and the Stones and Elvis and Michael Jackson or the Bee Gees or Springsteen were/are hugely popular. What's "popular" doesn't affect my personal opinion on what I think is good, bad, or just indifferent...

As for "The Sopranos". look at it this way : "Stand by Me" became a hit again in the 1980s because it was used it the movie of the same name. The Righteous Brothers version of "Unchained Melody" was successful 25 years after release because it was used it the movie "Ghost". I'm simple saying that "Don't Stop Believing" got a new lease on life, a revival, based on it's usage in one of the most watched and talked about series finales in TV history.

jjhunsecker said:

As for "The Sopranos". look at it this way : "Stand by Me" became a hit again in the 1980s because it was used it the movie of the same name. The Righteous Brothers version of "Unchained Melody" was successful 25 years after release because it was used it the movie "Ghost". I'm simple saying that "Don't Stop Believing" got a new lease on life, a revival, based on it's usage in one of the most watched and talked about series finales in TV history.

Those songs were re-released as singles and were played on Top 40 stations at the time and the videos were shown on MTV. Don't Stop Believing didn't get played on the Top 40 in the modern era, so that isn't the same thing. It didn't become a hit again. There's been many oldies that were used in movies, but didn't become a hit again, because they weren't re-released as singles and got no airplay as "new" songs. It's like songs played on oldies stations are not used as criteria as being a hit today.

MickyDolenz said:

jjhunsecker said:

As for "The Sopranos". look at it this way : "Stand by Me" became a hit again in the 1980s because it was used it the movie of the same name. The Righteous Brothers version of "Unchained Melody" was successful 25 years after release because it was used it the movie "Ghost". I'm simple saying that "Don't Stop Believing" got a new lease on life, a revival, based on it's usage in one of the most watched and talked about series finales in TV history.

Those songs were re-released as singles and were played on Top 40 stations at the time and the videos were shown on MTV. Don't Stop Believing didn't get played on the Top 40 in the modern era, so that isn't the same thing. It didn't become a hit again. There's been many oldies that were used in movies, but didn't become a hit again, because they weren't re-released as singles and got no airplay as "new" songs. It's like songs played on oldies stations are not used as criteria as being a hit today.

All I know is that I kept hearing it a LOT more after the "Sopranos" usage...maybe because the song sucks so bad it seems like it kept grating on my ears whenver I turned around and heard it again and again ! And I doubt if SPRINGSTEEN , along with Elton John and Lady Gaga, would have performed that song live without it's renewed popularity. You said before that you don't watch stuff related to the Mafia, so I don't know if you realized how significant that song became in wake of it's relation to the "Sopranos" finale

jjhunsecker said:

All I know is that I kept hearing it a LOT more after the "Sopranos" usage...maybe because the song sucks so bad it seems like it kept grating on my ears whenver I turned around and heard it again and again ! And I doubt if SPRINGSTEEN , along with Elton John and Lady Gaga, would have performed that song live without it's renewed popularity. You said before that you don't watch stuff related to the Mafia, so I don't know if you realized how significant that song became in wake of it's relation to the "Sopranos" finale

Even if that is so, then that proves that people like the song and it's not bad to a lot of people like you say it is to you. People are not going to like a song just because it's on a TV show or movie. If that's the case, then film score soundtracks would sell a lot or the songs would become Top 10 hits. They don't, because that kind of music doesn't appeal to the general public. It's just background music to many people like muzak. It's not something the average person wants to just sit down and listen to and play at parties or on their "boomin' system" in their cars or hear in a club.