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Thread started 03/15/17 4:43pm

HAPPYPERSON

Most influential pop music icon: Michael Jackson or Madonna?

#TeamMichaelJackson
#TeamMadonna
Join the conversation and vote below

Michael Jackson and Madonna are the crowned King and Queen of Pop. Both legends shaped pop music and influenced generations of artists. MJ's magical dance moves, visually-compelling music videos and showmanship inspired today's top entertainers. Madonna's reinvention, sexual freedom and female empowerment not only pushed boundaries, but helped future pop divas to continue that legacy. While MJ and Madonna proudly earned their honorific titles, who ultimately influenced pop music more? 🎤 👑

There have been numerous comparisons in legacy and impact, but who had a greater influence on pop music? Moonwalkers and Madonna wannabes have 10 days to vote on either pop icon. GO!

image

Michael and Madonna are among the best-selling artists of all time. It wasn't that uncommon for their paths to cross. In fact, they tried working together. Obviously that didn't happen, but they hung out—as Madonna explained at the 2009 VMAs. She later revealed they also had a brief romance. Though it was understood they were king and queen of pop, they were also fierce competitors.

Both have inspired today's artists, but there can only be one greatest pop music icon of all time.


image

The King of Pop literally broke records and barriers in music. He cemented a level of greatness that no other artist could accomplish. His art was visually-compelling, and his showmanship was magical. Many artists have followed in his footsteps. Michael taught them to reach for the stars, but he was truly one of a kind. The greatest entertainer of all-time, to be exact.

image

The Queen of Pop is also the queen of reinvention. Madonna constantly reinvented her look, fashion and music style—always remaining relevant and setting trends. She used controversy to push boundaries with her sexuality, and empowered freedom for other women and LGBTQ people to "express themselves." Because of Madonna, more female artists are able to explore sexuality, girl power and independence in their music.

image

To be honest, many believe no other music artist will ever accomplish what MJ did—not even Madonna. Back in 2010, The Atlantic writer Hampton Stevens wrote:
If Jackson had only been a great musician who also invented music video, he still wouldn't have mattered as much. Madonna, his only worthy heir, was almost as gifted at communicating an aesthetic on-screen. The aesthetic Jackson communicated, however, was much more powerful, liberating and globally resonant than hers. It was more powerful than what Elvis and Sinatra communicated, too. Hence, that whole "Most Influential Artist" thing.


No artist had a more profound impact on the 20th century than the King of Pop—not Faulkner, not Picasso, not even Elvis Presley



image

Madonna cemented her influence on pop music by always controlling the narrative. She always knew what she was doing by pushing the envelope and remaining a controversial figure through her art. And through all that public heat and reinvention, Madonna was able to break down barriers for future artists.

Cleveland's Laure DeMarco wrote:

Madonna's ability to turn controversy into publicity was never more apparent than with the 1984 release of her second album, "Like a Virgin." It was this release, with the white-lace-clad singer on the cover in a virgin/whore pose and Boy Toy belt, that established Madonna as a superstar. It sold more than 10 million copies worldwide and spawned five Top 10 singles.
But more than that, it was the visual and lyrical content that set a successful pattern Madonna has followed through her career: intentionally provoking with a mix of overtly sexual content, religious symbolism and devil-may-care girl-power rebellion.

Thirty years after her debut release, Madonna has become one of the top-selling female artists of all time, moving more than 300 million records worldwide. She was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2008, her first year of eligibility.



image

MJ broke the color barrier on MTV with his visionary music videos "Billie Jean," "Beat It" and "Thriller." He shook the world when he moonwalked across the stage at Motown 25. "Thriller" became the best-selling album of all time—cemented MJ's status as the King of Pop. "Thriller" inspired so many artists, and set a precedent for what a pop star could accomplish.

His groundbreaking "Bad World Tour" showed just how powerful of a pop icon he really was, breaking even more records in 1988. "Bad" was the album that paved the way for artists like Katy Perry to have five #1 Billboard Hot 100 hits from the same record. He continued to produce visually-compelling stories after "Thriller" in music videos for hits like "Bad," "Smooth Criminal" and "Remember the Time." MJ also continued to give groundbreaking performance after performance, like the halftime show at Super Bowl XXVII.

MJ remained a visionary artist and magical entertainer throughout the '80s and '90s. Usher, Justin Timberlake and Chris Brown have all emulated Michael's moves. His unique voice and musical styles inspired the sounds of Ne-Yo, Bruno Mars and The Weeknd. MJ's showmanship paved the way for Beyoncé to become an entertainer of a similar trajectory. To put it simply, artists of today wouldn't exist without the groundbreaking and unmatched talent of the King of Pop.

Watch an ode to MJ below, and see for yourself.

While Madonna became a pop star with her self-titled debut album, her sophomore effort "Like a Virgin" made her pop icon after her performance at the 1984 VMAs. Many girls wanted to be like Madonna following that VMA performance in 1984—coining the phrase Wannabes, but can you blame them? She later paid homage to her iconic performance with Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera at the 2003 VMAs.

That's just the thing—Madonna influenced so many female artists to come, and broke down gender barriers. She became the ultimate sex symbol, fashion icon and gay icon. It started with that controversial-yet-iconic VMAs performance.

She continued to explore her sexuality with songs like "Justify My Love." She talked about controversial subject matters on hits like "Papa Don't Preach," and tackled religion on "Like a Prayer." She jumped on trends with hits like "Vogue." She empowered women on tracks like "Express Yourself."

Madonna's sexual freedom and stage presence inspired Britney. Her sense of reinvention influenced Christina. She's a reference point for both the musical styles and fashions of both Lady Gaga and Katy Perry. That empowerment many artists feel to use their art to create controversy, be free, lead trends and reinvent themselves can be credited to the Queen of Pop.


https://thetylt.com/entertainment/most-influential-pop-music-icon-michael-jackson-or-madonna?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tylt

[Edited 3/15/17 16:44pm]

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Reply #1 posted 03/15/17 7:35pm

mnbvc

HAPPYPERSON said:

#TeamMichaelJackson
#TeamMadonna
Join the conversation and vote below

Michael Jackson and Madonna are the crowned King and Queen of Pop. Both legends shaped pop music and influenced generations of artists. MJ's magical dance moves, visually-compelling music videos and showmanship inspired today's top entertainers. Madonna's reinvention, sexual freedom and female empowerment not only pushed boundaries, but helped future pop divas to continue that legacy. While MJ and Madonna proudly earned their honorific titles, who ultimately influenced pop music more? 🎤 👑

There have been numerous comparisons in legacy and impact, but who had a greater influence on pop music? Moonwalkers and Madonna wannabes have 10 days to vote on either pop icon. GO!

image

Michael and Madonna are among the best-selling artists of all time. It wasn't that uncommon for their paths to cross. In fact, they tried working together. Obviously that didn't happen, but they hung out—as Madonna explained at the 2009 VMAs. She later revealed they also had a brief romance. Though it was understood they were king and queen of pop, they were also fierce competitors.

Both have inspired today's artists, but there can only be one greatest pop music icon of all time.


image

The King of Pop literally broke records and barriers in music. He cemented a level of greatness that no other artist could accomplish. His art was visually-compelling, and his showmanship was magical. Many artists have followed in his footsteps. Michael taught them to reach for the stars, but he was truly one of a kind. The greatest entertainer of all-time, to be exact.

image

The Queen of Pop is also the queen of reinvention. Madonna constantly reinvented her look, fashion and music style—always remaining relevant and setting trends. She used controversy to push boundaries with her sexuality, and empowered freedom for other women and LGBTQ people to "express themselves." Because of Madonna, more female artists are able to explore sexuality, girl power and independence in their music.

image

To be honest, many believe no other music artist will ever accomplish what MJ did—not even Madonna. Back in 2010, The Atlantic writer Hampton Stevens wrote:
If Jackson had only been a great musician who also invented music video, he still wouldn't have mattered as much. Madonna, his only worthy heir, was almost as gifted at communicating an aesthetic on-screen. The aesthetic Jackson communicated, however, was much more powerful, liberating and globally resonant than hers. It was more powerful than what Elvis and Sinatra communicated, too. Hence, that whole "Most Influential Artist" thing.


[QUOTE]

But more than that, it was the visual and lyrical content that set a successful pattern Madonna has followed through her career: intentionally provoking with a mix of overtly sexual content, religious symbolism and devil-may-care girl-power rebellion.

Thirty years after her debut release, Madonna has become one of the top-selling female artists of all time, moving more than 300 million records worldwide. She was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2008, her first year of eligibility.



image

MJ broke the color barrier on MTV with his visionary music videos "Billie Jean," "Beat It" and "Thriller." He shook the world when he moonwalked across the stage at Motown 25. "Thriller" became the best-selling album of all time—cemented MJ's status as the King of Pop. "Thriller" inspired so many artists, and set a precedent for what a pop star could accomplish.

His groundbreaking "Bad World Tour" showed just how powerful of a pop icon he really was, breaking even more records in 1988. "Bad" was the album that paved the way for artists like Katy Perry to have five #1 Billboard Hot 100 hits from the same record. He continued to produce visually-compelling stories after "Thriller" in music videos for hits like "Bad," "Smooth Criminal" and "Remember the Time." MJ also continued to give groundbreaking performance after performance, like the halftime show at Super Bowl XXVII.

MJ remained a visionary artist and magical entertainer throughout the '80s and '90s. Usher, Justin Timberlake and Chris Brown have all emulated Michael's moves. His unique voice and musical styles inspired the sounds of Ne-Yo, Bruno Mars and The Weeknd. MJ's showmanship paved the way for Beyoncé to become an entertainer of a similar trajectory. To put it simply, artists of today wouldn't exist without the groundbreaking and unmatched talent of the King of Pop.

Watch an ode to MJ below, and see for yourself.

While Madonna became a pop star with her self-titled debut album, her sophomore effort "Like a Virgin" made her pop icon after her performance at the 1984 VMAs. Many girls wanted to be like Madonna following that VMA performance in 1984—coining the phrase Wannabes, but can you blame them? She later paid homage to her iconic performance with Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera at the 2003 VMAs.

That's just the thing—Madonna influenced so many female artists to come, and broke down gender barriers. She became the ultimate sex symbol, fashion icon and gay icon. It started with that controversial-yet-iconic VMAs performance.

She continued to explore her sexuality with songs like "Justify My Love." She talked about controversial subject matters on hits like "Papa Don't Preach," and tackled religion on "Like a Prayer." She jumped on trends with hits like "Vogue." She empowered women on tracks like "Express Yourself."

Madonna's sexual freedom and stage presence inspired Britney. Her sense of reinvention influenced Christina. She's a reference point for both the musical styles and fashions of both Lady Gaga and Katy Perry. That empowerment many artists feel to use their art to create controversy, be free, lead trends and reinvent themselves can be credited to the Queen of Pop.


https://thetylt.com/entertainment/most-influential-pop-music-icon-michael-jackson-or-madonna?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tylt

[Edited 3/15/17 16:44pm]

No doubt Madonna is highly influential (Just like Cher is in some of the things listed) but one thing I do not like is when they list Britney Spears as one of the first/primary examples of Madonnas influence because of how much she ripped off Janet Jackson. You can now look back at all of her tours from when she was the biggest female pop star and maybe only about 10% would be influenced by Madonna. (And that includes stage presence too.)

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Reply #2 posted 03/15/17 8:05pm

Shawy89

avatar

It's not up for debate.

Michael is the most popular figure in the history of music (Pop and classical alike). The only one who matches his popularity is either Bob Marley, Mozart, Elvis or The Beatles.

And his overall popularity is matched by Jesus's, Mohammed's, Einstein's, Che Guevara's, Hitler's and other globally known figures.

He is influential in every aspect. I say this because I actually traveled to a lot of third world countries and the man is just a major thing. He's like sushi. Even the penguins in Antarctica know about MJ and tried at least once in their lives to moonwalk.

I'd estimate that 60% of current world population knows about MJ. He's known mostly for being the greatest dancer / entertainer ever lived, then comes Billie Jean's popularity, then his vitiligo and image... plus so many things.

Madonna is widely influential but her influence is only big in North America, Europe, Australia, Canada, parts of Asia and that's it really, you don't go to Brazil and see singers impersonating her. You don't go to Sierra Leone and ask someone about her and expect a reaction. Still though, she is a MAJOR FIGURE in pop culture.

[Edited 3/15/17 20:39pm]

You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger. - Buddha
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Reply #3 posted 03/15/17 8:45pm

Goddess4Real

avatar

This is so easy.......Team Prince Is The Most Influential Pop Music Icon yes lol

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGwbZmKy9S-o0ZflsS-Rq7H3097wrAxylnxqfWwXoiGl9IYyeMNg

Ok I got that out of my system wink .......I will say Team MJ because of his longevity and his music/fashion etc influence since his days in the Jackson 5, and as a solo artist. Even Madonna was inspired by him growing up, and did a little tribute to him during the Virgin Tour 1985 (and who by the way sought out his manager Freddy De Mann, the Victory Tour band, and sets to launch her first major tour). So in my eyes MJ is more influential than Madonna (who I also love).

[Edited 3/15/17 20:48pm]

[Edited 3/15/17 20:49pm]

Keep Calm & Listen To Prince
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Reply #4 posted 03/15/17 11:35pm

heathilly

This whole thread, concept, question is blasphemous. May the lord strike sense into the lost and delusional. Mj > madonna in all circumstances in all universes in all scenarios. mad
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Reply #5 posted 03/16/17 2:32am

RicoN

avatar

Musically, neither were very influential.

Madonna influenced and empowered a whole lot more girls/women though, so it's got to be Madonna. She's the one that will be remembered out of the 2 of them.

Yes, I've probably made a spelling mistake, but I can't be arsed to go back and correc tit.
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Reply #6 posted 03/16/17 2:33am

RicoN

avatar

Shawy89 said:

It's not up for debate.

Michael is the most popular figure in the history of music (Pop and classical alike). The only one who matches his popularity is either Bob Marley, Mozart, Elvis or The Beatles.

And his overall popularity is matched by Jesus's, Mohammed's, Einstein's, Che Guevara's, Hitler's and other globally known figures.

He is influential in every aspect. I say this because I actually traveled to a lot of third world countries and the man is just a major thing. He's like sushi. Even the penguins in Antarctica know about MJ and tried at least once in their lives to moonwalk.

I'd estimate that 60% of current world population knows about MJ. He's known mostly for being the greatest dancer / entertainer ever lived, then comes Billie Jean's popularity, then his vitiligo and image... plus so many things.

Madonna is widely influential but her influence is only big in North America, Europe, Australia, Canada, parts of Asia and that's it really, you don't go to Brazil and see singers impersonating her. You don't go to Sierra Leone and ask someone about her and expect a reaction. Still though, she is a MAJOR FIGURE in pop culture.

[Edited 3/15/17 20:39pm]



Everyone knows Hitler - was he influential?

Yes, I've probably made a spelling mistake, but I can't be arsed to go back and correc tit.
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Reply #7 posted 03/16/17 4:16am

LiLi1992

avatar

Michael!
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Reply #8 posted 03/16/17 5:06am

Glindathegood

How can you compare the influence of one person who is dead and thus won't be creating any more art, and another person who is still alive and a creative artist?

Also, when people die, we tend to put them on a pedestal and only remember the wonderful things they did and not the albums they released that weren't so good or flopped. Where as with living artists you tend to focus more equally on the things you love and the things you don't like as much that they have done.

So I don't think it's fair to compare a dead person to a living person in terms of influence.

And the person who said they aren't Madonna impersonators in Brazil has no clue what they are talking about. Brazil is one of Madonna's biggest markets! When she has toured there she has played in huge stadiums.

Her sexuality which is seen as a problem in the US is very much embraced in Brazil. Brazil has many Madonna impersonators!

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Reply #9 posted 03/16/17 6:06am

CAL3

MOST INFLUENTIAL POP MUSIC ICON:

.

Mr. Dynamite...

.

Soul Brother Number One...

.

Mr. Please, Please, Please...

.

The HARDEST Working Man In Show Business...

.

The Man With The Crown...

.

JAAAAAAAAAAAAMES BROWN!!!

.

.

But if the only two choices are MJ or Madge...

.

No question: Michael

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Reply #10 posted 03/16/17 6:22am

DaveT

avatar

MJ was bigger at the time, but Madge did it for longer, still going strong long after MJ's star faded.

There had been huge male stars before MJ to (Elvis, Beatles) but Madge was the first female megastar, so arguably she had a greater influence.

www.filmsfilmsfilms.co.uk - The internet's best movie site!
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Reply #11 posted 03/16/17 7:33am

LiLi1992

avatar

DaveT said:

MJ was bigger at the time, but Madge did it for longer,



Interestingly, from which year do you count the chronology?
Michael had hit # 1 in 1969, and his last album Invincible was released in 2001. Yes, it was not a huge hit, but Madonna's albums after 2005 are hardly more successful.

As far as I know, Michael has many records just for the long time of his popularity. Hits # 1 in 4 decades.
Hits top 10 in 5 decades (in 6, if you count his posthumous records too).

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Reply #12 posted 03/16/17 8:35am

DaveT

avatar

LiLi1992 said:

DaveT said:

MJ was bigger at the time, but Madge did it for longer,

Interestingly, from which year do you count the chronology? Michael had hit # 1 in 1969, and his last album Invincible was released in 2001. Yes, it was not a huge hit, but Madonna's albums after 2005 are hardly more successful. As far as I know, Michael has many records just for the long time of his popularity. Hits # 1 in 4 decades. Hits top 10 in 5 decades (in 6, if you count his posthumous records too).


I presume the OP was talking solo artist territory, so I was looking at Got To Be There (1972) onwards.

Madge I see as 1983 to 1993 ... but then had that whole 'comeback' era from 1998 onwards. MJ never seem to have a proper comeback after Dangerous.

Granted Madge's albums from 2005 haven't been great shakes but as a live performer she seems to be getting better; Rebel Heart was one of her best tours. So apart from a slight lull in the mid 90s she's been on it for 34 years. MJ as a solo artist I see as 1972 to 1996 (I'm being generous and including HIStory in that; Invincible I don't think you can say was anything but a flop and he wasnt performing live then either) ... 24 years.

Its a shame we never got to see what MJ might have done if given the chance (though I still think he would have struggled to do that many live dates at the O2). But having said that, for me and for friends I have who are music fans, his influence posthumously has been negatively impacted by some of the more dubious goings on in his private life. We just can't look at him the way we did when he was rocking the likes of Bad and Thriller.

www.filmsfilmsfilms.co.uk - The internet's best movie site!
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Reply #13 posted 03/16/17 10:20am

TrivialPursuit

Madonna. And I love me some MJ.

They're both entertainers. They both put on good shows. But for me, the differences are in the concerts. And another note I'll make a moment. MJ's concerts have mostly been the same recycled thing over and over since the late Jacksons year (Destiny, Triumph, & Victory Tours). It's the same "come out of stage and star for 5 minutes", "old song medley - let's play-fight about singing old songs, but MJ will 'do it for the fans' banter", the long, drawn out "Workin' Day and Night" jam, start with a new song, then immediately sing an old song, cry during "She's Out Of My Life" and say "can I come down there and sign to you?", etc. Some elements were changed, while others stayed. His quasi-spaceship routine on HIStory Tour seemed clumsy, and he lip synced 99% of the shows for 99% of the tour pretty much. Play fight during "Beat It". Long ass dance section of "Billie Jean". If viewing a random clip, it's really his face or nose that tells the time period, not the song.

With Madonna wanting to be an actress, she saw her concerts (and albums) as a way to fulfill that need; the flair for the dramatic. I noted in another thread how she was one of the first to divide a concert up into sections, and have it be theatrical, and have the music really tell a story. Blond Ambition Tour took you from industrial, to religion, to Dick Tracy, to just fun. The Girlie Show was a very unique experience in 4 acts, and much of it played to the idea of a Vaudeville or burlesque show. She wasn't afraid to tackle politics, religion, and even the president to make an anti-war statement, sexuality, and more in her shows. The thought she put into costumes, staging, production, arrangements, using remixes in concert (a thing not a lot of people did)... all of that really set her apart.

Look at Janet's first tour for RN1814. It was a good set of music, her first tour, well thought out, etc. Then Madonna comes along with 4 acts on the BAT. Janet stated to take that and use it a bit. Intermissions, or segues, into a new section. Other artists did it too, and smartly so. Madonna has a gift for that, really. She can tell a story and use a 20 year old song to do it, as much as using a new song to do the same. She can mash up two songs, or simply change an arrangement into a new direction and give it a whole new appeal.

MJ never did that. He never really addressed politics in a bold way, sexuality, religion - he stayed neutral and beige on much of it. Rather, he always went after the press or tabloids. Sure he had images of bombs dropping or whatever in a few videos, but he was more about coming up with a big video than an interesting concert. You go to an MJ show just to see MJ. You go to a Madonna concert for the experience.

So ultimately, it's Madonna that was more influential. Both influences music, production, fashion, etc. But Madonna was like a rabid dog with a bone. MJ never really had a finger on the pulse of things in the same manner. He wasn't out there with folks, and really sort of forgot who he was. Madonna, whether mouthy or not, always knew who she was, and felt grounded even in times of being untoucheable (like Like A Prayer, etc).

"Despite everything, no 1 can dictate who u r 2 other people." - Prince
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Reply #14 posted 03/16/17 11:21am

Graycap23

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Lol.....I can't even take this as a serious question.

The eyes are useless when the mind is blind.
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Reply #15 posted 03/16/17 1:05pm

LiLi1992

avatar

DaveT said:



LiLi1992 said:


DaveT said:

MJ was bigger at the time, but Madge did it for longer,



Interestingly, from which year do you count the chronology? Michael had hit # 1 in 1969, and his last album Invincible was released in 2001. Yes, it was not a huge hit, but Madonna's albums after 2005 are hardly more successful. As far as I know, Michael has many records just for the long time of his popularity. Hits # 1 in 4 decades. Hits top 10 in 5 decades (in 6, if you count his posthumous records too).




I presume the OP was talking solo artist territory, so I was looking at Got To Be There (1972) onwards.

Madge I see as 1983 to 1993 ... but then had that whole 'comeback' era from 1998 onwards. MJ never seem to have a proper comeback after Dangerous.

Granted Madge's albums from 2005 haven't been great shakes but as a live performer she seems to be getting better; Rebel Heart was one of her best tours. So apart from a slight lull in the mid 90s she's been on it for 34 years. MJ as a solo artist I see as 1972 to 1996 (I'm being generous and including HIStory in that; Invincible I don't think you can say was anything but a flop and he wasnt performing live then either) ... 24 years.

Its a shame we never got to see what MJ might have done if given the chance (though I still think he would have struggled to do that many live dates at the O2). But having said that, for me and for friends I have who are music fans, his influence posthumously has been negatively impacted by some of the more dubious goings on in his private life. We just can't look at him the way we did when he was rocking the likes of Bad and Thriller.




Well, for me Madonna's music was interesting from 1986 to 1998, Michael's from 1978 to 1995.
ard candy and Mdna are no better than Invincible. So include them in Madonna's run, but not Michael's - biased.

And Michael also had "returns". In the mid-70s he was actually written off for retirement, most believed that he was cute boy who ceased to be interesting to the public when he grew up. His albums and singles were not in the top 40 even.
But he returned not only his popularity, but also multiplied it many times.

But I agree that such topics are full of subjective judgments, so the correct answer to this question does not exist in principle.
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Reply #16 posted 03/16/17 1:40pm

paisleypark4

avatar

I agree not up for debate. Michael hands down. Without Michael..would have been no Madonna realistically.

Download all the shit hop that you can for your kids, neices, nephews, and their friends also. That will prevent them from going out and buying it and will prevent some shit hop sales. Every little bit helps - Andy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus
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Reply #17 posted 03/16/17 5:53pm

COMPUTERBLUE19
84

ALthough I am a bigger Prince fan, I respect the work of both. They both are icons, but MJ had a 10-15 year head start (before Madonna's debut).

Had his career ended in the mid 70's, he would have been an icon just for his J5 work alone. He entered another stratosphere with his solo career. If his career ended at ANY point in his classic solo era (78-91/92), he STILL would be the icon. Classic albums, great dancer/vocalist and globally recognized, he was the best all around entertainer/showman I have seen in my lifetime (IMO).


Madonna is iconic as well. Her material during the 80's is classic pop and as mentioned before, she always controlled the narrative of her career, a pop provacateur who was shameless and unapologetic in her work. For me, her icon status is due to her attitude/style above the music more so. Don't get me wrong, LOVE her music, but her personality was much more assertive over a longer period of time and when combined with her ability to stay current musically, she has had a solid run as an icon.

Much respect to both, just wishing MJ (and Prince )were still with us creating art.

"Old man's gotta be the old man. Fish has got to be the fish."
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Reply #18 posted 03/16/17 5:59pm

TrivialPursuit

paisleypark4 said:

I agree not up for debate. Michael hands down. Without Michael..would have been no Madonna realistically.


Well, it is up for debate. Madonna fashioned her career, by her own admission, after Prince's career, not MJ's. No doubt she was influenced by him in a lot of ways, but she was taking a lot more from Prince.

"Despite everything, no 1 can dictate who u r 2 other people." - Prince
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Reply #19 posted 03/16/17 11:56pm

214

RicoN said:

Shawy89 said:

It's not up for debate.

Michael is the most popular figure in the history of music (Pop and classical alike). The only one who matches his popularity is either Bob Marley, Mozart, Elvis or The Beatles.

And his overall popularity is matched by Jesus's, Mohammed's, Einstein's, Che Guevara's, Hitler's and other globally known figures.

He is influential in every aspect. I say this because I actually traveled to a lot of third world countries and the man is just a major thing. He's like sushi. Even the penguins in Antarctica know about MJ and tried at least once in their lives to moonwalk.

I'd estimate that 60% of current world population knows about MJ. He's known mostly for being the greatest dancer / entertainer ever lived, then comes Billie Jean's popularity, then his vitiligo and image... plus so many things.

Madonna is widely influential but her influence is only big in North America, Europe, Australia, Canada, parts of Asia and that's it really, you don't go to Brazil and see singers impersonating her. You don't go to Sierra Leone and ask someone about her and expect a reaction. Still though, she is a MAJOR FIGURE in pop culture.

[Edited 3/15/17 20:39pm]



Everyone knows Hitler - was he influential?

Of course he was, he is still after almost a century. I love both of them, but it's going to be Michael Jackson always.

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Reply #20 posted 03/17/17 12:06am

214

TrivialPursuit said:

Madonna. And I love me some MJ.

They're both entertainers. They both put on good shows. But for me, the differences are in the concerts. And another note I'll make a moment. MJ's concerts have mostly been the same recycled thing over and over since the late Jacksons year (Destiny, Triumph, & Victory Tours). It's the same "come out of stage and star for 5 minutes", "old song medley - let's play-fight about singing old songs, but MJ will 'do it for the fans' banter", the long, drawn out "Workin' Day and Night" jam, start with a new song, then immediately sing an old song, cry during "She's Out Of My Life" and say "can I come down there and sign to you?", etc. Some elements were changed, while others stayed. His quasi-spaceship routine on HIStory Tour seemed clumsy, and he lip synced 99% of the shows for 99% of the tour pretty much. Play fight during "Beat It". Long ass dance section of "Billie Jean". If viewing a random clip, it's really his face or nose that tells the time period, not the song.

Unfortunately i have to say you're right about this. After Bad his live performances became the same, over and over again.

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Reply #21 posted 03/17/17 2:31am

DaveT

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LiLi1992 said:

DaveT said:


I presume the OP was talking solo artist territory, so I was looking at Got To Be There (1972) onwards.

Madge I see as 1983 to 1993 ... but then had that whole 'comeback' era from 1998 onwards. MJ never seem to have a proper comeback after Dangerous.

Granted Madge's albums from 2005 haven't been great shakes but as a live performer she seems to be getting better; Rebel Heart was one of her best tours. So apart from a slight lull in the mid 90s she's been on it for 34 years. MJ as a solo artist I see as 1972 to 1996 (I'm being generous and including HIStory in that; Invincible I don't think you can say was anything but a flop and he wasnt performing live then either) ... 24 years.

Its a shame we never got to see what MJ might have done if given the chance (though I still think he would have struggled to do that many live dates at the O2). But having said that, for me and for friends I have who are music fans, his influence posthumously has been negatively impacted by some of the more dubious goings on in his private life. We just can't look at him the way we did when he was rocking the likes of Bad and Thriller.

Well, for me Madonna's music was interesting from 1986 to 1998, Michael's from 1978 to 1995. ard candy and Mdna are no better than Invincible. So include them in Madonna's run, but not Michael's - biased. And Michael also had "returns". In the mid-70s he was actually written off for retirement, most believed that he was cute boy who ceased to be interesting to the public when he grew up. His albums and singles were not in the top 40 even. But he returned not only his popularity, but also multiplied it many times. But I agree that such topics are full of subjective judgments, so the correct answer to this question does not exist in principle.


I think you're missing out not including American Life (an underrated Madge album) and Confessions On A Dancefloor if you're cutting Madonna off at 1998, two very good albums.

And I'm not including Hard Candy or MDNA in the Madonna run, they are weak; I'm counting her past 2005 based on her live tours which have been excellent. If you combine the best of Candy and MDNA there's a reasonable album there, and if she'd have pruned the weak songs off of Rebel Heart that album would have been really good

Not sure I'd class MJ's seventies career as a comeback, I think that was just the natural transition from teen to adulthood that all performers of that age have to go through. I'll admit its before my time, but retrospectively I haven't seen anything about the press lambasting him at that time ... certainly not like the kicking Madge got in the press in the mid-nineties when she was wandering around with an inflatable sheep under her arm and her knockers out biggrin For MJ that came later when he started dangling babies off of balconies, and he never recovered from that.

[Edited 3/17/17 2:33am]

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Reply #22 posted 03/17/17 4:10am

MotownSubdivis
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Glindathegood said:

How can you compare the influence of one person who is dead and thus won't be creating any more art, and another person who is still alive and a creative artist?



Also, when people die, we tend to put them on a pedestal and only remember the wonderful things they did and not the albums they released that weren't so good or flopped. Where as with living artists you tend to focus more equally on the things you love and the things you don't like as much that they have done.


So I don't think it's fair to compare a dead person to a living person in terms of influence.



And the person who said they aren't Madonna impersonators in Brazil has no clue what they are talking about. Brazil is one of Madonna's biggest markets! When she has toured there she has played in huge stadiums.


Her sexuality which is seen as a problem in the US is very much embraced in Brazil. Brazil has many Madonna impersonators!

One can be dead and still be influential. It's what they've done while alive that counts; the fact that they can no longer create is irrelevant since being influential doesn't correlate with having to be currently active in creating something.

That said, both are hugely influential. Not necessarily on a musical level but still in many relations to music, specifically how music is packaged. Just about every major female performer after Madonna has cited her as an inspiration and even those that don't still subconsciously display her influence in some way within their own work.

It would be foolish to say Mike wasn't a massive influence himself as there are many male and female singers who cite him as an influence or show shades of him in what they do. Madonna, even if she took more from Prince still took a page or so from MJ's book and that certainly counts for something. Michael wasn't the first megastar, Elvis was but he surpassed the mostly American-based Elvis by quite a wide margin as he had a global outreach no solo star before or after him has attained. Even compared to the more similarly popular Beatles, Michael had a wider variety of fans. Also, his solo success greatly trumps that of each individual Beatle member.

I want to give it to MJ but at the same time, I can't just sign off on that without some reluctance reading the points some are presenting here. Part of me goes with Madonna for being the most recognizable female artist in history (as well as what was stated above) and MJ for the reasons stated above. However, MJ's live performances while great, we basically rehashes with little variation and as (one of) the grratest live act(s) of all time, it is disappointing that he wasn't more spontaneous. However, one could argue that him bringing his music videos to the live stage was a spectacle at the time.
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Reply #23 posted 03/17/17 6:22am

LittleBLUECorv
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I really can't see how Madonna is the answer here.

I'll leave this here.
How many females have been influenced by Michael?
Now ask yourself how mane males have been influenced by Madonna?
PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
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Reply #24 posted 03/17/17 6:29am

DaveT

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LittleBLUECorvette said:

I really can't see how Madonna is the answer here. I'll leave this here. How many females have been influenced by Michael? Now ask yourself how mane males have been influenced by Madonna?

Females influenced by MJ - None that I know of. I knew a couple of guys growing up who tried to imitate his style but no ladies.

Males influenced by Madge - Thousands, if not more ... just go ask the gay community (and a few straight ones, myself included ... I certainly took her work ethic and attitude on board). Women by Madge? Where to start! She was the first female music megastar.

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Reply #25 posted 03/17/17 6:56am

MotownSubdivis
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DaveT said:



LittleBLUECorvette said:


I really can't see how Madonna is the answer here. I'll leave this here. How many females have been influenced by Michael? Now ask yourself how mane males have been influenced by Madonna?


Females influenced by MJ - None that I know of. I knew a couple of guys growing up who tried to imitate his style but no ladies.

Males influenced by Madge - Thousands, if not more ... just go ask the gay community (and a few straight ones, myself included ... I certainly took her work ethic and attitude on board). Women by Madge? Where to start! She was the first female music megastar.

Influence can go deeper than what can be outwardly seen or heard. Beyonce, for example, outside of a few wardrobes and choreographed dance routines does not resemble MJ in the slightest yet she considers him an influence nontheless.

There are acts out there who Prince influenced but they don't dress like he did or make the same music.
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Reply #26 posted 03/17/17 7:17am

DaveT

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MotownSubdivision said:

DaveT said:

Females influenced by MJ - None that I know of. I knew a couple of guys growing up who tried to imitate his style but no ladies.

Males influenced by Madge - Thousands, if not more ... just go ask the gay community (and a few straight ones, myself included ... I certainly took her work ethic and attitude on board). Women by Madge? Where to start! She was the first female music megastar.

Influence can go deeper than what can be outwardly seen or heard. Beyonce, for example, outside of a few wardrobes and choreographed dance routines does not resemble MJ in the slightest yet she considers him an influence nontheless. There are acts out there who Prince influenced but they don't dress like he did or make the same music.


... true ... and in which case the original question is impossible to answer, if we're talking about unseeable and impossible-to-know tangibles.

Going by what we do know though I see the first male music megastar as Elvis, and the first female music megastar as Madonna ... hence both having the most influence on what followed.

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Reply #27 posted 03/17/17 8:07am

namepeace

MotownSubdivision said:

DaveT said:

Females influenced by MJ - None that I know of. I knew a couple of guys growing up who tried to imitate his style but no ladies.

Males influenced by Madge - Thousands, if not more ... just go ask the gay community (and a few straight ones, myself included ... I certainly took her work ethic and attitude on board). Women by Madge? Where to start! She was the first female music megastar.

Influence can go deeper than what can be outwardly seen or heard. Beyonce, for example, outside of a few wardrobes and choreographed dance routines does not resemble MJ in the slightest yet she considers him an influence nontheless. There are acts out there who Prince influenced but they don't dress like he did or make the same music.

Agreed. DaveT doesn't make an unreasonable argument, just an overly broad one.

There aren't many pop music artists, male or female, who don't aspire to have the next Thriller. I can't think of many pop music artists of either gender in the MTV Age who weren't impacted by MJ's work in the medium.

You may not see many females wearing the zipper jackets, military regalia and sparkly gloves, but there are literally thousands, if not MILLIONS, of girls that had MJ on their posters and t-shirts.

One point I will agree on: Madonna was, is and will be a grinder. She got every ounce out of her talents and charisma.

But don't sleep on MJ. He just made it look easy.

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #28 posted 03/17/17 8:11am

MotownSubdivis
ion

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DaveT said:



MotownSubdivision said:


DaveT said:



Females influenced by MJ - None that I know of. I knew a couple of guys growing up who tried to imitate his style but no ladies.

Males influenced by Madge - Thousands, if not more ... just go ask the gay community (and a few straight ones, myself included ... I certainly took her work ethic and attitude on board). Women by Madge? Where to start! She was the first female music megastar.



Influence can go deeper than what can be outwardly seen or heard. Beyonce, for example, outside of a few wardrobes and choreographed dance routines does not resemble MJ in the slightest yet she considers him an influence nontheless. There are acts out there who Prince influenced but they don't dress like he did or make the same music.


... true ... and in which case the original question is impossible to answer, if we're talking about unseeable and impossible-to-know tangibles.

Going by what we do know though I see the first male music megastar as Elvis, and the first female music megastar as Madonna ... hence both having the most influence on what followed.

Touché.

Elvis is the first ever megastar and he owns his place in history but he's since been surpassed by Michael. MJ was influenced by Elvis who himself, was influenced by black artists so you can say it worked itself back around. MJ's appeal was also far broader than Elvis' was.
[Edited 3/17/17 8:25am]
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Reply #29 posted 03/17/17 8:15am

nextedition

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namepeace said:

MotownSubdivision said:

DaveT said: Influence can go deeper than what can be outwardly seen or heard. Beyonce, for example, outside of a few wardrobes and choreographed dance routines does not resemble MJ in the slightest yet she considers him an influence nontheless. There are acts out there who Prince influenced but they don't dress like he did or make the same music.

Agreed. DaveT doesn't make an unreasonable argument, just an overly broad one.

There aren't many pop music artists, male or female, who don't aspire to have the next Thriller. I can't think of many pop music artists of either gender in the MTV Age who weren't impacted by MJ's work in the medium.

You may not see many females wearing the zipper jackets, military regalia and sparkly gloves, but there are literally thousands, if not MILLIONS, of girls that had MJ on their posters and t-shirts.

One point I will agree on: Madonna was, is and will be a grinder. She got every ounce out of her talents and charisma.

But don't sleep on MJ. He just made it look easy.

That's not being influenced, that is being a fan.

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