ML2016 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

bboy87 said: Quincy Jones was integral to MJ's success the way George Martin is viewed as the 5th Beatle. There was a special chemistry between Jackson and Jones. Had Jones been involved with Dangerous he would have made the album more uniform removing filler songs such as Gone Too Soon which should have been a b-side of a single at most. Bad, while not as great as Thriller, was tight. Every song on it was strong enough to be a single. Even Leave Me Alone, which was a bonus for the CD. Had Bad managed to sell 25 million units in the US I don't see MJ ditching him for Teddy Riley. At this stage MJ was following music trends as New Jack had been established in the late 80s by others like Bobby Brown.

After Thriller MJ's priority was sales. Selling. He should have focused on making great music. Instead, he became obsessed with sales and made music accordingly. Thus his music became fast-food-easy-listening-music, thought especially to sell as much as possible. He confined himself to what would sell and whatever was popular with the goal of selling, selling, selling. Hence the decline in the great music until Thriller.

Good point. That's why I've stated before that after Thriller, he became a "numbers" artist. And the harder he tried to chase sales figures, the lower his albums sales went in America.

MichaelJackson5 said:

ML2016 said:

After Thriller MJ's priority was sales. Selling. He should have focused on making great music. Instead, he became obsessed with sales and made music accordingly. Thus his music became fast-food-easy-listening-music, thought especially to sell as much as possible. He confined himself to what would sell and whatever was popular with the goal of selling, selling, selling. Hence the decline in the great music until Thriller.

Good point. That's why I've stated before that after Thriller, he became a "numbers" artist. And the harder he tried to chase sales figures, the lower his albums sales went in America.

That's why I am a fan of Black MJ only. His work with the Jackson 5 is superb and so are his two young adult albums. That's a lot of work and music right there. Enough to fill my needs. Black MJ is the greatest entertainer of all time and one of the greatest, most serious musical acts ever. In my opinion, Black MJ is even better than Prince (though Prince makes sweet love to White and Mullato and Mestizo and Albino MJ). I enjoy white MJ occasionally. But I must admit White MJ is great for my health: I can't help laughing every time I hear "Heal the World" or watch MJ's video featuring Macauly Culkin or his HIStory tour with those cheesy, strict and idiotic dance routines, the fantastical miming and the recreation of videoclips on stage. Oh, and him bringing a shitload of kids on stage. Can you imagine Prince doing this?

ML2016 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Good point. That's why I've stated before that after Thriller, he became a "numbers" artist. And the harder he tried to chase sales figures, the lower his albums sales went in America.

That's why I am a fan of Black MJ only. His work with the Jackson 5 is superb and so are his two young adult albums. That's a lot of work and music right there. Enough to fill my needs. Black MJ is the greatest entertainer of all time and one of the greatest, most serious musical acts ever. In my opinion, Black MJ is even better than Prince (though Prince makes sweet love to White and Mullato and Mestizo and Albino MJ). I enjoy white MJ occasionally. But I must admit White MJ is great for my health: I can't help laughing every time I hear "Heal the World" or watch MJ's video featuring Macauly Culkin or his HIStory tour with those cheesy, strict and idiotic dance routines, the fantastical miming and the recreation of videoclips on stage. Oh, and him bringing a shitload of kids on stage. Can you imagine Prince doing this?

While MJ still made some good songs after Thriller, it was hard for his work to be taken seriously. Heal The World is like We Are The World 2.0 and manages to be even more saccharine, Black or White was doing great until people saw what MJ looked like in the accompanying video (along with the part with Culkin) and the "Jesus-like" way MJ performed Earth Song was certainly cringe-inducing. By the 90s, MJ wasn't grounded in any form of reality. He really thought he was Peter Pan.

MJ had an unhealthy fascination with kids and should have sought psychological help for it. Whatever his childhood was like is no excuse for living out your childhood into your 30s, 40s, etc. If the Arvizzo Trial didn't happen and he were alive today, I'm certain he'd still be having sleepovers at the age of 57-58.

He also seemed to enjoy the priveliges of being "white" too.

ML2016 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

bboy87 said: Quincy Jones was integral to MJ's success the way George Martin is viewed as the 5th Beatle. There was a special chemistry between Jackson and Jones. Had Jones been involved with Dangerous he would have made the album more uniform removing filler songs such as Gone Too Soon which should have been a b-side of a single at most. Bad, while not as great as Thriller, was tight. Every song on it was strong enough to be a single. Even Leave Me Alone, which was a bonus for the CD. Had Bad managed to sell 25 million units in the US I don't see MJ ditching him for Teddy Riley. At this stage MJ was following music trends as New Jack had been established in the late 80s by others like Bobby Brown.

After Thriller MJ's priority was sales. Selling. He should have focused on making great music. Instead, he became obsessed with sales and made music accordingly. Thus his music became fast-food-easy-listening-music, thought especially to sell as much as possible. He confined himself to what would sell and whatever was popular with the goal of selling, selling, selling. Hence the decline in the great music until Thriller.

I don't think History and Dangerous are easy listening at all, i'm with you about his obsession with sales,though.

MichaelJackson5 said:

ML2016 said:

That's why I am a fan of Black MJ only. His work with the Jackson 5 is superb and so are his two young adult albums. That's a lot of work and music right there. Enough to fill my needs. Black MJ is the greatest entertainer of all time and one of the greatest, most serious musical acts ever. In my opinion, Black MJ is even better than Prince (though Prince makes sweet love to White and Mullato and Mestizo and Albino MJ). I enjoy white MJ occasionally. But I must admit White MJ is great for my health: I can't help laughing every time I hear "Heal the World" or watch MJ's video featuring Macauly Culkin or his HIStory tour with those cheesy, strict and idiotic dance routines, the fantastical miming and the recreation of videoclips on stage. Oh, and him bringing a shitload of kids on stage. Can you imagine Prince doing this?

While MJ still made some good songs after Thriller, it was hard for his work to be taken seriously. Heal The World is like We Are The World 2.0 and manages to be even more saccharine, Black or White was doing great until people saw what MJ looked like in the accompanying video (along with the part with Culkin) and the "Jesus-like" way MJ performed Earth Song was certainly cringe-inducing. By the 90s, MJ wasn't grounded in any form of reality. He really thought he was Peter Pan.

MJ had an unhealthy fascination with kids and should have sought psychological help for it. Whatever his childhood was like is no excuse for living out your childhood into your 30s, 40s, etc. If the Arvizzo Trial didn't happen and he were alive today, I'm certain he'd still be having sleepovers at the age of 57-58.

He also seemed to enjoy the priveliges of being "white" too.

What kind of shit is that

214 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

While MJ still made some good songs after Thriller, it was hard for his work to be taken seriously. Heal The World is like We Are The World 2.0 and manages to be even more saccharine, Black or White was doing great until people saw what MJ looked like in the accompanying video (along with the part with Culkin) and the "Jesus-like" way MJ performed Earth Song was certainly cringe-inducing. By the 90s, MJ wasn't grounded in any form of reality. He really thought he was Peter Pan.

MJ had an unhealthy fascination with kids and should have sought psychological help for it. Whatever his childhood was like is no excuse for living out your childhood into your 30s, 40s, etc. If the Arvizzo Trial didn't happen and he were alive today, I'm certain he'd still be having sleepovers at the age of 57-58.

He also seemed to enjoy the priveliges of being "white" too.

What kind of shit is that

Bullshit, that's what.

MichaelJackson5 said:

purplethunder3121 said:

214 said:

What kind of shit is that

Bullshit, that's what.

Indeed.

ML2016 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

While MJ still made some good songs after Thriller, it was hard for his work to be taken seriously. Heal The World is like We Are The World 2.0 and manages to be even more saccharine, Black or White was doing great until people saw what MJ looked like in the accompanying video (along with the part with Culkin) and the "Jesus-like" way MJ performed Earth Song was certainly cringe-inducing. By the 90s, MJ wasn't grounded in any form of reality. He really thought he was Peter Pan.

MJ had an unhealthy fascination with kids and should have sought psychological help for it. Whatever his childhood was like is no excuse for living out your childhood into your 30s, 40s, etc. If the Arvizzo Trial didn't happen and he were alive today, I'm certain he'd still be having sleepovers at the age of 57-58.

He also seemed to enjoy the priveliges of being "white" too.

What about "Bad"? It's so funny. What about #1 hit-prototype-radiofriendly-song "YANA"? Michael had a formula after "Thriller": charity song+ rock song featuring a rockstar+ #1 hit prototype-song to lead+ collaboration with a popular name+ long videoclip. He always tried to do the same he did with Thriller hoping for the same results. He also wanted to recreate "We Are The World": remember his charity song in 2004? MJ went with whatever was popular to try and remain as mainstream, current and "sellable" as possible. His obsession with kids was pathological. He obsessed over children and their company. Little boys and little girls, though he obsessed even more with boys. He was more interested in LMP's children than he was in her. Children were all he thought about, all he wanted as company and all he had eyes for. If a child was in the room he would concentrate on nothing else. Even after the allegations he continued having children with him obsessive and uncomfortably every single day and every single trip. When he went to Brazil he had a sleepover with ten children in tents (nothing to do with that idiot Simmon's words). He befriended the Cascio kid and had Omer Bhatti live with him PERMANENTLY, even having the kid's parents work for him so he could have the kid close. He only wanted D Rowe so she could bear him children. He had zero interest in her. He just wanted the kids which is why he married LMP, cause he wanted kids. Kids, kids, kids. That's all he talked about, all he cared, all he was interested in. He should have seeked help

U are the obsessed with that not him.

ML2016 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

While MJ still made some good songs after Thriller, it was hard for his work to be taken seriously. Heal The World is like We Are The World 2.0 and manages to be even more saccharine, Black or White was doing great until people saw what MJ looked like in the accompanying video (along with the part with Culkin) and the "Jesus-like" way MJ performed Earth Song was certainly cringe-inducing. By the 90s, MJ wasn't grounded in any form of reality. He really thought he was Peter Pan.

MJ had an unhealthy fascination with kids and should have sought psychological help for it. Whatever his childhood was like is no excuse for living out your childhood into your 30s, 40s, etc. If the Arvizzo Trial didn't happen and he were alive today, I'm certain he'd still be having sleepovers at the age of 57-58.

He also seemed to enjoy the priveliges of being "white" too.

What about "Bad"? It's so funny. What about #1 hit-prototype-radiofriendly-song "YANA"? Michael had a formula after "Thriller": charity song+ rock song featuring a rockstar+ #1 hit prototype-song to lead+ collaboration with a popular name+ long videoclip. He always tried to do the same he did with Thriller hoping for the same results. He also wanted to recreate "We Are The World": remember his charity song in 2004? MJ went with whatever was popular to try and remain as mainstream, current and "sellable" as possible. His obsession with kids was pathological. He obsessed over children and their company. Little boys and little girls, though he obsessed even more with boys. He was more interested in LMP's children than he was in her. Children were all he thought about, all he wanted as company and all he had eyes for. If a child was in the room he would concentrate on nothing else. Even after the allegations he continued having children with him obsessive and uncomfortably every single day and every single trip. When he went to Brazil he had a sleepover with ten children in tents (nothing to do with that idiot Simmon's words). He befriended the Cascio kid and had Omer Bhatti live with him PERMANENTLY, even having the kid's parents work for him so he could have the kid close. He only wanted D Rowe so she could bear him children. He had zero interest in her. He just wanted the kids which is why he married LMP, cause he wanted kids. Kids, kids, kids. That's all he talked about, all he cared, all he was interested in. He should have seeked help

Why exactly? Whatever floats your boat and gets you by I would say. So what, if he preferred the company of children instead of awestruck, opportunistic grown ups? As long as there is no abuse involved, I'd say, where is the harm? It looks strange, but really, why should he care what other people, strangers, think about him? They believe whatever they want to believe.

214 said:

ML2016 said:

After Thriller MJ's priority was sales. Selling. He should have focused on making great music. Instead, he became obsessed with sales and made music accordingly. Thus his music became fast-food-easy-listening-music, thought especially to sell as much as possible. He confined himself to what would sell and whatever was popular with the goal of selling, selling, selling. Hence the decline in the great music until Thriller.

I don't think History and Dangerous are easy listening at all, i'm with you about his obsession with sales,though.

Excactly. A lot of bullshit talking, as usual, going on in this thread. Anything on Dangerous, History and BOTDF is more adventurous, daring and less safe, than anything he has done before.

PatrickS77 said:

214 said:

I don't think History and Dangerous are easy listening at all, i'm with you about his obsession with sales,though.

Excactly. A lot of bullshit talking, as usual, going on in this thread. Anything on Dangerous, History and BOTDF is more adventurous, daring and less safe, than anything he has done before.

Indeed, they are, but he just doesn't care.

ML2016 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

While MJ still made some good songs after Thriller, it was hard for his work to be taken seriously. Heal The World is like We Are The World 2.0 and manages to be even more saccharine, Black or White was doing great until people saw what MJ looked like in the accompanying video (along with the part with Culkin) and the "Jesus-like" way MJ performed Earth Song was certainly cringe-inducing. By the 90s, MJ wasn't grounded in any form of reality. He really thought he was Peter Pan.

MJ had an unhealthy fascination with kids and should have sought psychological help for it. Whatever his childhood was like is no excuse for living out your childhood into your 30s, 40s, etc. If the Arvizzo Trial didn't happen and he were alive today, I'm certain he'd still be having sleepovers at the age of 57-58.

He also seemed to enjoy the priveliges of being "white" too.

What about "Bad"? It's so funny. What about #1 hit-prototype-radiofriendly-song "YANA"? Michael had a formula after "Thriller": charity song+ rock song featuring a rockstar+ #1 hit prototype-song to lead+ collaboration with a popular name+ long videoclip. He always tried to do the same he did with Thriller hoping for the same results. He also wanted to recreate "We Are The World": remember his charity song in 2004? MJ went with whatever was popular to try and remain as mainstream, current and "sellable" as possible. His obsession with kids was pathological. He obsessed over children and their company. Little boys and little girls, though he obsessed even more with boys. He was more interested in LMP's children than he was in her. Children were all he thought about, all he wanted as company and all he had eyes for. If a child was in the room he would concentrate on nothing else. Even after the allegations he continued having children with him obsessive and uncomfortably every single day and every single trip. When he went to Brazil he had a sleepover with ten children in tents (nothing to do with that idiot Simmon's words). He befriended the Cascio kid and had Omer Bhatti live with him PERMANENTLY, even having the kid's parents work for him so he could have the kid close. He only wanted D Rowe so she could bear him children. He had zero interest in her. He just wanted the kids which is why he married LMP, cause he wanted kids. Kids, kids, kids. That's all he talked about, all he cared, all he was interested in. He should have seeked help

Man in the Mirror was and still is a great song. So is Liberian Girl (which he wrote in 1983). But I hear ya - each album after Thriller was formula based: Hottest guitarist (of the moment), a rock song or two, a duet with another industry icon, a "save the world" song.

All it did was limit MJ's creativity as an artist. And truthfully, if he had confidence in his own God-given talents, he should have realized that he didn't need other big names in his albums because as OTW proved, he could carry an album by himself.

I guess the pressure of topping Thriller clouded his judgement. He, being the perfectionist, put so much pressure on himself that he forgot what people loved about him in the first place and that's when things went downhill in America.

In fact, the song Bad was proposed as a duet with Prince but Prince turned it down. I Just Can't Stop Loving You was turned down by Whitney Houston and Barbara Streisand. In The Closet was supposed to feature Madonna.

MJ albums after Thriller are considered to be over-produced too, lacking any of the soul that permeated his work before Bad. Like his face, his approach seemed to be "the more the better".

I think the charity song you're referring to is What More Can I Give which MJ released after the events of 9/11 and released shortly after.

PatrickS77 said:

ML2016 said:

MichaelJackson5 said: What about "Bad"? It's so funny. What about #1 hit-prototype-radiofriendly-song "YANA"? Michael had a formula after "Thriller": charity song+ rock song featuring a rockstar+ #1 hit prototype-song to lead+ collaboration with a popular name+ long videoclip. He always tried to do the same he did with Thriller hoping for the same results. He also wanted to recreate "We Are The World": remember his charity song in 2004? MJ went with whatever was popular to try and remain as mainstream, current and "sellable" as possible. His obsession with kids was pathological. He obsessed over children and their company. Little boys and little girls, though he obsessed even more with boys. He was more interested in LMP's children than he was in her. Children were all he thought about, all he wanted as company and all he had eyes for. If a child was in the room he would concentrate on nothing else. Even after the allegations he continued having children with him obsessive and uncomfortably every single day and every single trip. When he went to Brazil he had a sleepover with ten children in tents (nothing to do with that idiot Simmon's words). He befriended the Cascio kid and had Omer Bhatti live with him PERMANENTLY, even having the kid's parents work for him so he could have the kid close. He only wanted D Rowe so she could bear him children. He had zero interest in her. He just wanted the kids which is why he married LMP, cause he wanted kids. Kids, kids, kids. That's all he talked about, all he cared, all he was interested in. He should have seeked help

Why exactly? Whatever floats your boat and gets you by I would say. So what, if he preferred the company of children instead of awestruck, opportunistic grown ups? As long as there is no abuse involved, I'd say, where is the harm? It looks strange, but really, why should he care what other people, strangers, think about him? They believe whatever they want to believe.

He didn't need to care but his behavior with young children, the lack of boundaries with the sleepovers, hurt his album sales.

He had every right to behave as strange as he wanted - slumber parties, sipping tea with Bubbles, having a new face for each album. But he shouldn't be complaining when the sales started declining in America.

And while kids aren't opportunistic, they have parents who are or they grow up to be, like Wade Robson.

PatrickS77 said:

PatrickS77 said:

bboy87 said:

exactly. Dangerous and HIStory may not be his most radio friendly albums, but they're his greatest imo

Considered by some to be his "coming of age" album. And I agree.

Dangerous Talk with Susan Fast »

ML2016 said:

PatrickS77 said:

Excactly. A lot of bullshit talking, as usual, going on in this thread. Anything on Dangerous, History and BOTDF is more adventurous, daring and less safe, than anything he has done before.

"Black or White" is a song for people under the age of 15. It's too pop-ish to be taken seriously by people who want serious music. There comes a time one outgrows white MJ's music: it's for kids. Just listen to "Black or White". Really. YANA is a song meant to be a radio-friendly #1 hit. "Heal the World" is as cheesy as it gets. "Money", "SIMoscow", "TDCAU, "BOTDF" and "Who is it" are very good songs though

What about ICNTTPOYM or Raspebrry Beret they also sound too pop-ish so it does something like Hello- Goodbye from the Beatles, so what, just becaues of that they aren't real music.

bboy87 said:

Beautiful song,i love it

ML2016 said:

PatrickS77 said:

Excactly. A lot of bullshit talking, as usual, going on in this thread. Anything on Dangerous, History and BOTDF is more adventurous, daring and less safe, than anything he has done before.

"Black or White" is a song for people under the age of 15. It's too pop-ish to be taken seriously by people who want serious music. There comes a time one outgrows white MJ's music: it's for kids. Just listen to "Black or White". Really. YANA is a song meant to be a radio-friendly #1 hit. "Heal the World" is as cheesy as it gets. "Money", "SIMoscow", "TDCAU, "BOTDF" and "Who is it" are very good songs though

They are great, to me Money could easily have fit in Sign O' The times it sound as the title track form Prince.

Blood On The Dance Floor is the worst MJ song out of his entire discography for me. He doesn't handle songs with that pace well which includes Jam and Shout. It's impossible to understand what he's even singing about in those three songs.

MichaelJackson5 said:

Blood On The Dance Floor is the worst MJ song out of his entire discography for me. He doesn't handle songs with that pace well which includes Jam and Shout. It's impossible to understand what he's even singing about in those three songs.

I didn't like it either....but then again most of these "remix' albums are shitt!

Goddess4Real said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Blood On The Dance Floor is the worst MJ song out of his entire discography for me. He doesn't handle songs with that pace well which includes Jam and Shout. It's impossible to understand what he's even singing about in those three songs.

I didn't like it either....but then again most of these "remix' albums are shitt!

I don't understand the reason for the release of the BOTDF album since Stranger in Moscow was the next single released in the US from HIStory. Sony barely promoted it in America to make matters worse. It would have made more sense to release Earth Song or This Time Around in America and continue promoting HIStory.

Listening to the awesome MJ/Jacksons tributes etc on the The Soul Brother Show http://soulbrothershow.podbean.com/ got me thinking about my fav Top 10 MJ albums. Here is my list;

1. Off The Wall (1979)

2. HIStory (1995)

3. Got To Be There (1972)

4. BAD (1987)

5. Thriller (1982)

6. Dangerous (1991)

7. Music & Me (1973)

8. Invincible (2001)

9. Ben (1972)

10. Forever Michael (1975)

I didn't inlcude Blood on the Dancefloor (1997) despite the 5 new tracks which were ok....but I don't like remix albums!. Also I didn't include Michael (2010) or Xscape (2014) because of the controversary surrounding the songs, or the people who re-worked those songs.....and it got me rethinking if I want to purchase post Prince music if people are gonna try and mess with his songs.....but at the same time I want to hear his early stuff, and the unreleased Vanity 6, The Time, Sheila E albums etc if u know what I mean.

MichaelJackson5 said:

Goddess4Real said:

I didn't like it either....but then again most of these "remix' albums are shitt!

I don't understand the reason for the release of the BOTDF album since Stranger in Moscow was the next single released in the US from HIStory. Sony barely promoted it in America to make matters worse. It would have made more sense to release Earth Song or This Time Around in America and continue promoting HIStory.

Sony didn't know what they were doing.....they spent years fighting with George Michael and his lawsuit, and they wanted a quick cheap product and hey presto the remix album was the solution Invincible would have been higher on my list if it had no Darkchild production/songs on it. MJ should have gone with the Neptunes IMO....don't get me started on the Thriller 25

MichaelJackson5 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

ML2016 said:

That's why I am a fan of Black MJ only. His work with the Jackson 5 is superb and so are his two young adult albums. That's a lot of work and music right there. Enough to fill my needs. Black MJ is the greatest entertainer of all time and one of the greatest, most serious musical acts ever. In my opinion, Black MJ is even better than Prince (though Prince makes sweet love to White and Mullato and Mestizo and Albino MJ). I enjoy white MJ occasionally. But I must admit White MJ is great for my health: I can't help laughing every time I hear "Heal the World" or watch MJ's video featuring Macauly Culkin or his HIStory tour with those cheesy, strict and idiotic dance routines, the fantastical miming and the recreation of videoclips on stage. Oh, and him bringing a shitload of kids on stage. Can you imagine Prince doing this?

While MJ still made some good songs after Thriller, it was hard for his work to be taken seriously. Heal The World is like We Are The World 2.0 and manages to be even more saccharine, Black or White was doing great until people saw what MJ looked like in the accompanying video (along with the part with Culkin) and the "Jesus-like" way MJ performed Earth Song was certainly cringe-inducing. By the 90s, MJ wasn't grounded in any form of reality. He really thought he was Peter Pan.

MJ had an unhealthy fascination with kids and should have sought psychological help for it. Whatever his childhood was like is no excuse for living out your childhood into your 30s, 40s, etc. If the Arvizzo Trial didn't happen and he were alive today, I'm certain he'd still be having sleepovers at the age of 57-58.

He also seemed to enjoy the priveliges of being "white" too.