lastdecember said:

Better Question : Why did RB totally lose groups that PLAY instruments, are there any? Besides Mint Condition please name one that isnt 100 years old.

Black musicians are going to make a comeback, its only a matter of time. There are a lot of amazing young musicians out there.

There was a punk band out a few years ago called Whole Wheat Bread.

I hope that u are right.

MickyDolenz said:

bobzilla77 said:

I think his point was, Led Zeppelin is a thing from 40 years ago, yet they still have a lot of young white people listening to them & thinking they are important.

That's probably because they get played all the time on classic rock stations. There's other rock groups and songs from the same time period that don't get the same airplay. You also have programs like That Metal Show which have veteran acts on them to talk about their new records and also promote newer acts in the same style. Rock was also considered an album format since in general, it didn't get Top 40 airplay. They were mainly played on a separate radio format Album Oriented Rock, which didn't just play singles. Led Zeppelin, Rush, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Metallica, KISS, Pink Floyd, etc. managed to sell a lot of albums with few or no hit singles. R&B was mostly a singles format, most acts didn't really sell a lot of albums. That's why some R&B acts made efforts to crossover to get the bigger sales and also why many old R&B/soul/funk albums are out of print.

that is bullshit and you known it. who's info are you useing? alot of black artist artist were selling records, white record labels did not want popular black artist to outsell white artist so they kept them in the single format.

MickyDolenz said:

bobzilla77 said:

I think his point was, Led Zeppelin is a thing from 40 years ago, yet they still have a lot of young white people listening to them & thinking they are important.

That's probably because they get played all the time on classic rock stations. There's other rock groups and songs from the same time period that don't get the same airplay. You also have programs like That Metal Show which have veteran acts on them to talk about their new records and also promote newer acts in the same style. Rock was also considered an album format since in general, it didn't get Top 40 airplay. They were mainly played on a separate radio format Album Oriented Rock, which didn't just play singles. Led Zeppelin, Rush, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Metallica, KISS, Pink Floyd, etc. managed to sell a lot of albums with few or no hit singles. R&B was mostly a singles format, most acts didn't really sell a lot of albums. That's why some R&B acts made efforts to crossover to get the bigger sales and also why many old R&B/soul/funk albums are out of print.

Why this looks radical. [img:$uid]http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h164/ybfchic/December%202014%20Part%206/JANUARY%202015/image1.png[/img:$uid]

jackson35 said:

alot of black artist artist were selling records,

All acts sell some records. There's local churches where I live that record and sell the albums to the members and people in the neigborhood, same for bar bands and tribute acts. That is not huge sales. Before the 1980s a R&B album going gold was considered a big deal as that was harder to do than the average popular rock & pop act. It was even more so for jazz & blues albums. Back then, a #1 R&B album might not hit Top 10 on the general Top 200 chart, ditto for country & jazz #1s. A few like Teddy Pendergrass, War, Barry White, George Benson, & 1970's era The Isley Brothers went platinum or more. Stevie Wonder sold multi-platinum, but he didn't just sell to the R&B audience. Many of Aretha Franklin's albums did not even go gold and neither did James Brown's. Aretha's biggest seller is a gospel record Amazing Grace and her biggest secular is Who's Zoomin' Who. But none of them sold like Boston, Fleetwood Mac, The Eagles, Pink Floyd, Van Halen, etc. The Bee Gees were basically making R&B in the late 1970s and sold better than popular black performers doing the same thing. It was the same in the 1980s for Wham!/George Michael, Culture Club, & New Kids On The Block. ABC got Top 40 airplay automatically, they didn't have to crossover. If R&B in general sold the same as the mainstream acts, then there would be no need for Clive Davis trying to groom his acts for Top 40/adult contemporary stations. He tried that with Phyllis Hyman, but she rebelled. Most of the bigger selling R&B acts of the 1980s got a crossover audience (Kool & The Gang, Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson, Billy Ocean, Whitney Houston). Run DMC, The Beastie Boys, Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince sold more than other rap groups of the time because they got the mainstream audience. In country, Kenny Rogers crossed over and got bigger sales than the average country act, same for Kenny G in jazz.

chrisslope9 said:

There's so much great rock music being played by African American youth right now. Surprised no one here has named checked anyone yet.

[Edited 1/28/15 20:32pm]

Nobody saw hip-hop coming when Kool Herc "and 'em" were rocking the rhymes and beats 40 years ago.

MickyDolenz said:

jackson35 said:

alot of black artist artist were selling records,

All acts sell some records. There's local churches where I live that record and sell the albums to the members and people in the neigborhood, same for bar bands and tribute acts. That is not huge sales. Before the 1980s a R&B album going gold was considered a big deal as that was harder to do than the average popular rock & pop act. It was even more so for jazz & blues albums. Back then, a #1 R&B album might not hit Top 10 on the general Top 200 chart, ditto for country & jazz #1s. A few like Teddy Pendergrass, War, Barry White, George Benson, & 1970's era The Isley Brothers went platinum or more. Stevie Wonder sold multi-platinum, but he didn't just sell to the R&B audience. Many of Aretha Franklin's albums did not even go gold and neither did James Brown's. Aretha's biggest seller is a gospel record Amazing Grace and her biggest secular is Who's Zoomin' Who. But none of them sold like Boston, Fleetwood Mac, The Eagles, Pink Floyd, Van Halen, etc. The Bee Gees were basically making R&B in the late 1970s and sold better than popular black performers doing the same thing. It was the same in the 1980s for Wham!/George Michael, Culture Club, & New Kids On The Block. ABC got Top 40 airplay automatically, they didn't have to crossover. If R&B in general sold the same as the mainstream acts, then there would be no need for Clive Davis trying to groom his acts for Top 40/adult contemporary stations. He tried that with Phyllis Hyman, but she rebelled. Most of the bigger selling R&B acts of the 1980s got a crossover audience (Kool & The Gang, Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson, Billy Ocean, Whitney Houston). Run DMC, The Beastie Boys, Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince sold more than other rap groups of the time because they got the mainstream audience. In country, Kenny Rogers crossed over and got bigger sales than the average country act, same for Kenny G in jazz.

crossover ruin black music peroid. everyone from clive davis to amhet should hing for what they did.

jackson35 said:

MickyDolenz said:

All acts sell some records. There's local churches where I live that record and sell the albums to the members and people in the neigborhood, same for bar bands and tribute acts. That is not huge sales. Before the 1980s a R&B album going gold was considered a big deal as that was harder to do than the average popular rock & pop act. It was even more so for jazz & blues albums. Back then, a #1 R&B album might not hit Top 10 on the general Top 200 chart, ditto for country & jazz #1s. A few like Teddy Pendergrass, War, Barry White, George Benson, & 1970's era The Isley Brothers went platinum or more. Stevie Wonder sold multi-platinum, but he didn't just sell to the R&B audience. Many of Aretha Franklin's albums did not even go gold and neither did James Brown's. Aretha's biggest seller is a gospel record Amazing Grace and her biggest secular is Who's Zoomin' Who. But none of them sold like Boston, Fleetwood Mac, The Eagles, Pink Floyd, Van Halen, etc. The Bee Gees were basically making R&B in the late 1970s and sold better than popular black performers doing the same thing. It was the same in the 1980s for Wham!/George Michael, Culture Club, & New Kids On The Block. ABC got Top 40 airplay automatically, they didn't have to crossover. If R&B in general sold the same as the mainstream acts, then there would be no need for Clive Davis trying to groom his acts for Top 40/adult contemporary stations. He tried that with Phyllis Hyman, but she rebelled. Most of the bigger selling R&B acts of the 1980s got a crossover audience (Kool & The Gang, Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson, Billy Ocean, Whitney Houston). Run DMC, The Beastie Boys, Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince sold more than other rap groups of the time because they got the mainstream audience. In country, Kenny Rogers crossed over and got bigger sales than the average country act, same for Kenny G in jazz.

crossover ruin black music peroid. everyone from clive davis to amhet should hing for what they did.

might as well add Berry Gordy to that list

his goal was to crossover and he didn't hide it

Crossover is nothing new, it's been happening since vaudeville. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, some black performers did blackface. Louis Armstrong, Paul Robeson, Sammy Davis Jr., Scott Joplin, Lightnin' Hopkins, and other black performers sang for white audiences in places like The Cotton Club, Las Vegas clubs, & Carnegie Hall. The Fisk Jubilee Singers performed in Europe in the early 1900s. Others did separate shows for black & white audiences because of segregation. Nat King Cole & Johnny Mathis became famous for standards & pop tunes, not R&B and rock. Nat got a TV show and so did Hazel Scott. The programs didn't last long because they couldn't get sponsors, but they wouldn't have got one in the first place if they only performed R&B or blues. Marion Anderson & Jessye Norman did opera. Many R&B/soul acts went on shows like American Bandstand, Ed Sullivan, & Shindig. That's where they could be seen by mainstream audiences and that helped some to sell. Ed Sullivan was a big deal. Otis Redding & Jimi Hendrix performed at Monterey Pop, mainly a festival with white acts. Motown was "The Sound Of Young America", not "Black America". Berry Gordy wanted to crossover.

HuMpThAnG said:

might as well add Berry Gordy to that list

his goal was to crossover and he didn't hide it

Prince didn't go on Soul Train until the 1990s, but appeared on American Bandstand & Solid Gold and did a contest for MTV but not BET. I wonder why.

MickyDolenz said:

HuMpThAnG said:

might as well add Berry Gordy to that list

his goal was to crossover and he didn't hide it

Prince didn't go on Soul Train until the 1990s, but appeared on American Bandstand & Solid Gold and did a contest for MTV but not BET. I wonder why.

I never knew he was on Soul Train. What song did he perform?

SeventeenDayze said:

I never knew he was on Soul Train. What song did he perform?

The song with Nona Gaye and some others from the Gold album.

Here's a recent Jill Scott interview. The part from 4:55-8:52 is somewhat relevant to the topic.

Lotta great debate on this topic. When the dust clears, for me tho (and Imma total funk dude)....its the notes of Eddie Hazel, Jimi, Bad Brains, Living Colour, and Stevie Salas (among many) that continue to resonate here.

There's debate....and there's FACT...remember & jam on THAT y'all.

MickyDolenz said:

HuMpThAnG said:

might as well add Berry Gordy to that list

his goal was to crossover and he didn't hide it

Prince didn't go on Soul Train until the 1990s, but appeared on American Bandstand & Solid Gold and did a contest for MTV but not BET. I wonder why.

yup, sold his soul for that crossover appeal

HuMpThAnG said:

MickyDolenz said:

Prince didn't go on Soul Train until the 1990s, but appeared on American Bandstand & Solid Gold and did a contest for MTV but not BET. I wonder why.

yup, sold his soul for that crossover appeal

Rick James was complaining about black performers not being shown on MTV. If he only wanted the black audience, why would he care about that? Why did some black performers appear on soap operas?

that is bullshit and you known it. who's info are you useing? alot of black artist artist were selling records, white record labels did not want popular black artist to outsell white artist so they kept them in the single format.

You think white record label owners were so racist that they deliberately sabotaged their black artists?

That's the first I've heard of it. Everything I ever heard about those old school record guys was that they would go for the money if they thought there was money there.

They may have rigged it so the artists didn't get paid enough. But I have a hard time believing they made decisions to keep their own artists from selling records.

MickyDolenz said:

HuMpThAnG said:

yup, sold his soul for that crossover appeal

Rick James was complaining about black performers not being shown on MTV. If he only wanted the black audience, why would he care about that? Why did some black performers appear on soap operas?

rick james had a white fan base. why shouldn't he be shown on mtv? his music was better then half the people they were playing. the racist recording industry was mad at rick because he sold 4million units of street songs without having to cross over.

jackson35 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Rick James was complaining about black performers not being shown on MTV. If he only wanted the black audience, why would he care about that? Why did some black performers appear on soap operas?

rick james had a white fan base. why shouldn't he be shown on mtv? his music was better then half the people they were playing. the racist recording industry was mad at rick because he sold 4million units of street songs without having to cross over.

plus,I would argue that "Super Freak" had an undeniable pop/New Wave flavor.Can't see why MTV were against showing it.Ironically,just a few years later,MTV added Eddie Murphy's "Party All The Time" to their playlist,which was written and produced by Rick (he also makes a cameo in the video).

MTV showed Eddy Grant, Joan Armatrading, Bus Boys, and Jon Butcher, who were all black, so I don't get where MTV didn't show black performers.

bobzilla77 said:

But I have a hard time believing they made decisions to keep their own artists from selling records.

Labels do sometime release records to fail on purpose, but not because of any racism. It can be for a tax writeoff, to shut up complaining acts (.ig Tori Amos at Atlantic), or because their contract is about to expire and the act is going to another label. They don't want to spend money to benefit a competitor's label.

MickyDolenz said:

MTV showed Eddy Grant, Joan Armatrading, Bus Boys, and Jon Butcher, who were all black, so I don't get where MTV didn't show black performers.

brother dolenz, u known these acts were not being played during the primetime hour. how does that help them sell records?

jackson35 said:

MickyDolenz said:

MTV showed Eddy Grant, Joan Armatrading, Bus Boys, and Jon Butcher, who were all black, so I don't get where MTV didn't show black performers.

brother dolenz, u known these acts were not being played during the primetime hour. how does that help them sell records?

Eddy Grant had a few Top 40 hits including the one he's most known for - Electric Avenue and that video was popular. Do you think people only saw it on Friday Night Videos? Most people didn't have MTV in the beginning anyway or even cable television. In the early 1980s, most hit records were still made from radio play. MTV didn't show AC acts like Air Supply and Christopher Cross and they were popular. That's why MTV later created VH-1 for adult contemporary acts that were not shown on the main station. Oak Ridge Boys, Kenny Rogers, & Eddie Rabbitt had pop hits and MTV didn't show country videos at all. MTV started in 1981 and didn't really become popular until around 1983, so it wouldn't have helped Rick's Street Songs record. MTV showed a lot of videos and acts who didn't become popular or got a lot of radio airplay.

Buy young ones guitars.

...and stop complaining in the neighborhoods when they "jam"..

Still won't matter, because the youth don't care...

They don't care about "real music by real musicians"..because it took 20 years for someon to say that, but let VH1 to put them back in schools, but not take-home instruments..

"Rock & Roll" was little Richard bagging on a piano...or what he calls "Boogie-Woogie blues"..

Once the Rock-a-billies started --after Chuck Berry...feature more guitar... Then Hendrix and The Doors and Zepplin..... I'd say "Rock" is not "Rock & Roll"..

Rock, Metal, Hard Rock, Hair Band Pop Rock, is not Rock & Roll from the beginning...

Rock & Roll made teen-agers dance.. Not sit back and "Rock-out" or "Vibe-out"...

Rock is a construct...of another genre..

The term Rock & Roll is derived from "Sex"... It was a music to get a girl on the dancefloor in the 50s...It was "N---- Music" "Spook Music" - like Robert Plant said a few years ago...that they incorporated elements into "Rock".

Real Rock & Roll was a thing of "Sock Hops" and dance clubs...

There seems to be a tendency for minority groups to define their interests and favoured forms of expression on a rather narrow scale. At first it may seem that all options are open, but over time it tends to get narrower. American blacks are hardly the only ones in that sense. You can see the same thing happening to the immigrants in Europe these days. I believe there's often some sort of bullying involved when some individuals show interest in things that aren't thought to "belong to them".

However, I'd like to point out that there really is a difference between "rock'n'roll" and "rock". The earlier forms don't have that much to do with Nirvana. Motown stuff, for example, is closer to early rock'n'roll than a lot of the music that's connected to the "alternative" movement.

jackson35 said:

certain black artist do not represent certain vaules and aspiration of the black community. a lot of black folks support these artist, but a lot of us don't because they just want to copy what white artist do.

what does that even mean? Are you implying all black people have the same aspirations and values? And that black people had nothing to do with creating rock and roll?
I'm starting to think ignorance may be part of what heppened.