I have a few friends who seem to think of Beyoncé as the second coming and as one of the greatest performers of all time.

It bothers me, because when I compare her voice to the "greats" like Chaka, Whitney, Patti, Gladys, etc., she comes off as a far weaker singer in terms of technical ability. And in terms of interpretive ability, she's not too impressive either, so I wouldn't class her with the likes of Diana Ross in the "decent voice, great song stylist" category either.

Am I wrong here? Where would you put her in the pantheon of great R&B belters?

[Edited 9/30/13 9:12am]

WatchThemFall said:

She lacks emotion, she doesn´t take you with her in a song, at least not me.

Been listening a lot to whitney again these days, and well, you just can´t compare. Whitney turns a cheesy 80´s dance track in something amazing.

WatchThemFall said:

I have a few friends who seem to the of Beyoncé as the second coming and as one of the greatest performers of all time.

It bothers me, because when I compare her voice to the "greats" like Chaka, Whitney, Patti, Gladys, etc., she comes off as a far weaker singer in terms of technical ability. And in terms of interpretive ability, she's not too impressive either, so I wouldn't class her with the likes of Diana Ross in the "decent voice, great song stylist" category either.

Am I wrong here? Where would you put her in the pantheon of great R&B belters?

[Edited 9/30/13 7:44am]

[Edited 9/30/13 7:45am]

Chaka, Patti and Gladys? Not a fair comparison. Beyonce is a Dance/Pop singer. Comparing her to Lady Ga Ga, Rhianna, Ciara and Katy Perry is more appropriate. If you are going to compare her to legends, then Donna Summer, Janet Jackson, Jody Watley or Madonna would be more appropriate.

I have attempted to listen to some of the songs that her fans claim make her such a great singer, and I just don't hear any depth or substance. Vocally, nothing there to make her stand out from the other young girls. The only thing technical about her voice is when it's being enhanced by a computer.

Good dancer, entertainer and she's an absolute genius at self-promotion. Self-promotion is an area where she can definately rival Madonna. But, vocally, just another average Dance singer.

My favorite female voices are Aretha Franklin, Jazmine Sullivan, Jill Scott, Tweet, Rosie Gaines & Faith Evans. Beyonce is not in my top 10, probably not even my top 20. But having said that....

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A voice-for-voice, range-for-range comparison puts Beyonce right along the likes of Whitney, Patti Labelle, & Chaka Khan. Beyonce, vocally, can hit most of the notes that they can, and some notes that some of them cannot.

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Anyone who compares her to Janet Jackson, Madonna, or Katy Perry loses my respect as a music critic, although I'm sure that they are still fine human beings

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It amazes me the amount of historical bias which taints fairness when making comparisons about past performers to current ones. (There will never be another Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan or Muhammad Ali, etc)

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I respect the past but always try and give credit where credit is due.

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On a different note:

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Wouldn't it be nice if we could hear a prime Patti/Aretha/Chaka sing a prime Beyonce/JHud/FaithEvans/JazmineSullivan song and make a forward comparison, instead of the backwards comparison that we always have to make?

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And to wrap it up: There will always be great male and female voices. Music structure and styles change, but the human voice is pretty much restricted within a narrow range, with prime singers having good to great control over a high octave range. Let's judge 'greatness' based upon clarity, control, and range. If we do this, it's plain to see that Beyonce belongs in the upper echelon of greatness, whether in 1850, 1975, or 2013. She may not be the Vocal GOAT in my estimation, but the lady can definitely hold her own.

I'm so ready for kitbradley and free0001 to go at it!

WatchThemFall said:

I'm so ready for kitbradley and free0001 to go at it!

It would be just a waste of time. Everyone who has tried to convince me of her vocal greatness have all failed miserably. With the right management, any chimp in the zoo could put a blonde wig on and do what she's doing. As horrible as Nippy sounded during the last 10 years of her career, Beyonce wasn't in the same league as her. And anyone who would compare her to Chaka, Aretha or Patti...it's comparing apples to oranges. Again, Beyonce is a Dance/Pop singer. Enough said.

[Edited 9/30/13 14:31pm]

kitbradley said:

WatchThemFall said:

I'm so ready for kitbradley and free0001 to go at it!

It would be just a waste of time. Everyone who has tried to convince me of her vocal greatness have all failed miserably. With the right management, any chimp in the zoo could put a blonde wig on and do what she's doing. As horrible as Nippy sounded during the last 10 years of her career, Beyonce wasn't in the same league as her. And anyone who would compare her to Chaka, Aretha or Patti...it's comparing apples to oranges. Again, Beyonce is a Dance/Pop singer. Enough said.

[Edited 9/30/13 14:31pm]

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Hey WTF & Kit!

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Let me apologize if I came off as authoritarian. I think it may have been a continuation from sparring with my peoples in the Religion/Politics room LOL

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Beyonce, JHud, XTina Aguillera, Faith Evans, etc are the starting Ballers of today, where Aretha, Chaka, & to some extent Whitney (premature death RIP) were the starting Ballers of the past generation. They have the same basic tools; they just sing different styles. I just don't think it's fair/reasonable to place the former generation on a pedastal. Beyonce, I dare say, can hit any note that any of your faves could.

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In what specific way are your favorites 'better' than Beyonce. Have any specifics?

[Edited 9/30/13 15:38pm]

From a technical standpoint she's 10/10 and most vocal teachers would probably grade her high. She's very in control of her voice and I never hear her sounding flat, off-key, strained, out of breath or bad. She's not Aretha, Patti or Chaka in their prime, but she's well above average and is generally stronger than most of her peers. Of the singers who've debuted in the past twenty years, she's in the top ten percentile in terms of vocal ability.

[Edited 9/30/13 16:51pm]

ADC said:

From a technical standpoint she's 10/10 and most vocal teachers would probably grade her high. She's very in control of her voice and I never hear her sounding flat, off-key, strained, out of breath or bad. She's not Aretha, Patti or Chaka in their prime, but she's well above average and is generally stronger than most of her peers. Of the singers who've debuted in the past twenty years, she's in the top ten percentile in terms of vocal ability.

[Edited 9/30/13 16:51pm]

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So, ADC....

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I agree with your analysis of Beyonce's technical skill, because you give a pretty decent explanation. However, you give no justification why Beyonce is not in the Aretha/Patti/Chaka's vocal class.

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Do those 3 women grade > 100%?

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I think that Beyonce is penalized for being a "performing singer" by the purists, but I have yet to hear the specifics of 'why' Beyonce is an inferior vocalist to these legends.

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This is not a foregone conclusion; the "everybody knows that Beyonce is no [insert your favorite old skool singer here] doesn't quite cut it....

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And I'll give you this one for free: although she is not my favorite female vocalist, Keke Wyatt probably grades technically higher than all of the legends that you listed. I do realize that this conclusion is somewhat subjective.

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[Edited 9/30/13 18:28pm]

Her voice is pretty good but her songs are not the kind you want to hear all the time which detracts from her immensely.

I probably could be convinced to agree with your friends, that she is one of the great music performers of all time, but since this thread is titled about vocals, I'll comment on that.

_

Vocal skills 10/10 - amazing control in every way and possibly one of the best ever.

Vocal tone 5/10 - it just don't do it for me and gets irritating after a couple of songs in a row.

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Vocal skills are great to have in the tool box, but I'll go for the tone that hits me in the heart over the skills, anyday. Skills are all about hard work, tone can be helped with work, but much of it is built into an individual.

_

And for that reason, Jimi Hendrix is a better vocalist than Beyonce IMO. Riot on, LOL.

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[Edited 10/1/13 19:35pm]

nd33 said:

I probably could be convinced to agree with your friends, that she is one of the great music performers of all time, but since this thread is titled about vocals, I'll comment on that.

_

Vocal skills 10/10 - amazing control in every way and possibly one of the best ever.

Vocal tone 5/10 - it just don't do it for me and gets irritating after a couple of songs in a row.

_

Vocal skills are great to have in the tool box, but I'll go for the tone that hits me in the heart over the skills, anyday. Skills are all about hard work, tone can be helped with work, but much of it is built into an individual.

_

And for that reason, Jimi Hendrix is a better vocalist than Beyonce IMO. Riot on, LOL.

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[Edited 10/1/13 19:35pm]

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Great comment about 'vocal tone'.

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It's for this reason that I prefer Jill Scott over Whitney Houston & Jaz Sullivan over Beyonce. The same reason I dig Tweet and her almost 3D tone; I can literally 'feel' the tone in her lyrics. She could hum the ingredients off a can of Hormel (vegan) chili and I'd still be like 'daaamn'.....

Shawy89 said:

I ain't no fan of Beyonce, but the girl can sing, I've seen her live many times and tho she looks to me as a hooker I think when it comes to ballads she nails them. I put her with Janelle Monae, Lauryn Hill and the likes of them. She fairly surpasses Madonna & Katy vocally. But thats from a logical prespective because sometimes her melisma makes me sick, and tbh I cant stand one sec of her singing while she dances..... Ugh.

She's a much better singer than Janelle Monae.

kitbradley said:

WatchThemFall said:

I have a few friends who seem to the of Beyoncé as the second coming and as one of the greatest performers of all time.

It bothers me, because when I compare her voice to the "greats" like Chaka, Whitney, Patti, Gladys, etc., she comes off as a far weaker singer in terms of technical ability. And in terms of interpretive ability, she's not too impressive either, so I wouldn't class her with the likes of Diana Ross in the "decent voice, great song stylist" category either.

Am I wrong here? Where would you put her in the pantheon of great R&B belters?

[Edited 9/30/13 7:44am]

[Edited 9/30/13 7:45am]

Chaka, Patti and Gladys? Not a fair comparison. Beyonce is a Dance/Pop singer. Comparing her to Lady Ga Ga, Rhianna, Ciara and Katy Perry is more appropriate. If you are going to compare her to legends, then Donna Summer, Janet Jackson, Jody Watley or Madonna would be more appropriate.

I have attempted to listen to some of the songs that her fans claim make her such a great singer, and I just don't hear any depth or substance. Vocally, nothing there to make her stand out from the other young girls. The only thing technical about her voice is when it's being enhanced by a computer.

Good dancer, entertainer and she's an absolute genius at self-promotion. Self-promotion is an area where she can definately rival Madonna. But, vocally, just another average Dance singer.

Just no! What a disgrace to the queen of disco! Donna could sing her ass off! I've been a Bey fan since late 90s, but come on - you can't even compare Bey to the amazing vocalist Donna was.

She can sing but her herky-jerky melismatic vibrato annoys the fuck outta me.

nd33 said:

I probably could be convinced to agree with your friends, that she is one of the great music performers of all time, but since this thread is titled about vocals, I'll comment on that.

_

Vocal skills 10/10 - amazing control in every way and possibly one of the best ever.

Vocal tone 5/10 - it just don't do it for me and gets irritating after a couple of songs in a row.

_

Vocal skills are great to have in the tool box, but I'll go for the tone that hits me in the heart over the skills, anyday. Skills are all about hard work, tone can be helped with work, but much of it is built into an individual.

_

And for that reason, Jimi Hendrix is a better vocalist than Beyonce IMO. Riot on, LOL.

.

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[Edited 10/1/13 19:35pm]

Right no. She is great technically speaking but I don't personally like her vocal tone.

Bey is good, very good for pop BUT she's no Rachelle, Ledisi, or Keke in vocal ability by many standards point-blank-period. Her looks, skin tone, and age give her a lot of passes in many ways in pop music.

nd33 said:

I probably could be convinced to agree with your friends, that she is one of the great music performers of all time, but since this thread is titled about vocals, I'll comment on that.

_

Vocal skills 10/10 - amazing control in every way and possibly one of the best ever.

Vocal tone 5/10 - it just don't do it for me and gets irritating after a couple of songs in a row.

_

Vocal skills are great to have in the tool box, but I'll go for the tone that hits me in the heart over the skills, anyday. Skills are all about hard work, tone can be helped with work, but much of it is built into an individual.

_

And for that reason, Jimi Hendrix is a better vocalist than Beyonce IMO. Riot on, LOL.

.

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[Edited 10/1/13 19:35pm]

You hit the nail on the head.

Beyonce CAN sing, unlike most "artists" today.

She has technical control, can do runs etc.

But her TONE or TIMBRE or both are exgtremely grating.

THe best way I can explain it is that she always sounds like she is singing in a MINOR key, even when she's not. I don't know the tehcnical explanation but it just sounds very shrill and annoying to me.

Compare this to Whitney, Chaka, Patti etc. Their TONES is lush, resonant, full, melodic etc.

The most important part about the vocal delivery to me is the emotion thats conveyed behind it. So in that sense, I can't really rate her as I've never been moved by her voice.

Original version if I were a boy:

As for MS. B's voice, meh. I prefer Ms. Khan, Lennox, or Ann Wilson's voice.

I Love B-Girl...Like Kit said NOBODY does self-promotion BETTER and can survive it. B-Girl has been over-exposed since she went Solo and we STILL can't get ENOUGH...My Local radio is playing her cureent single and it sounds like "Space filler". I don't remember the name of the song but at first I wondered if it was B. The song is a throw-away and I wonder why the Label released it.

She's a really good singer. Because she is in a pop environment, there is a lot of pressure for her to stay in her lane and do fluff. A lot of people are eating off Beyoncé, which is why she stays where she is. I think we may see a better perception of how good she is or can be once she is not under pressure to sell out arenas. At this stage in her career, she has no reason to push her abilities because everyone is trying to help her "reinvent herself" to sell the next batch of meaningless songs designed to be sing-along. I think the fact that she so easily hold her own in the pop arena says that she has the raw ability and talent but as with most pop singers, her image overshadows her songs.

I believe if she stayed in the R&B genre and wasn't bred to be a pop star, she would get a lot of props on her vocal ability. The problem is, she was never pushed to be anything else other than what she is now. Withinher field, I think she can sing as well as or better than almost all of the contemporaries in her category. Christina is on par with her but singers like Katy Perry, Britney, Taylor, Rihanna and the like are nowhere close. There is a big difference between singing and just being able to carry a tune.

B-Girl's Networth is a Whopping $300 Million.... ...That does NOT include Jigga's bank statement....

BlaqueKnight said:

She's a really good singer. Because she is in a pop environment, there is a lot of pressure for her to stay in her lane and do fluff. A lot of people are eating off Beyoncé, which is why she stays where she is. I think we may see a better perception of how good she is or can be once she is not under pressure to sell out arenas. At this stage in her career, she has no reason to push her abilities because everyone is trying to help her "reinvent herself" to sell the next batch of meaningless songs designed to be sing-along. I think the fact that she so easily hold her own in the pop arena says that she has the raw ability and talent but as with most pop singers, her image overshadows her songs.

I believe if she stayed in the R&B genre and wasn't bred to be a pop star, she would get a lot of props on her vocal ability. The problem is, she was never pushed to be anything else other than what she is now. Withinher field, I think she can sing as well as or better than almost all of the contemporaries in her category. Christina is on par with her but singers like Katy Perry, Britney, Taylor, Rihanna and the like are nowhere close. There is a big difference between singing and just being able to carry a tune.

I think Christina's voice is better than Ms. B's, but she is definately better than all the rest you mentioned. Although, Beyonce and Christina both like to over sing a song!

kewlschool said:

I think Christina's voice is better than Ms. B's, but she is definately better than all the rest you mentioned. Although, Beyonce and Christina both like to over sing a song!

I think they could both sing pretty much anything the other one could, tonal preferences aside.

Truthfully, they are both impressive singers who are used to sing pop songs. I think Christina has displayed more of a variety because she has had a little more to prove but at the end of the day, they are both pop chicks. Beyoncé was bred to be a pop star since she was little. I wonder what kind of singer she'd have turned out to be if that had not been the case?

She's the greatest technical vocalist in popular music history. Totally in control of her voice, ridiculously skilled as a musician and interpreter, incredibly versatile, and continues to grow even in her sixteenth professional year. Enough said.

kitbradley said:

As horrible as Nippy sounded during the last 10 years of her career, Beyonce wasn't in the same league as her.

ROTFL pls.

And anyone who would compare her to Chaka, Aretha or Patti...it's comparing apples to oranges.

I think you meant something completely different from what you actually expressed here.

Again, Beyonce is a Dance/Pop singer. Enough said.

So were Whitney Houston and Donna Summer. ENOUGH SAID.

I think she's a great technical singer.

However, I find her voice boring. There's no rawness or edginess to her voice at all IMO. I'm sure she's had a great vocal trainer in the past. Back in her earlier days she use to growl a lot and it came off as forced emotion. Her music/voice just does nothing for me.