Anyone notice how over the past 25 years or so, the natural lower register of black male voices have been pushed out of R&B music?

Its common knowledge that many black American males have lower speaking voices. At one point (60s-70s) this was a staple of the music being made and there was a balance of range. For every Little Richard, there was a Sam Cooke. Teddy Pendergrass and Luther Vandross were just as common and loved as Michale Jackson (before Thriller) and Prince (before Purple Rain). Male vocal groups had voices in different ranges, not voices that all covered the same octave.

Over the course of the past 20-25 years or so, the distinctive lower register of the black male voice has been filtered out of R&B, as has the commonality of the black male voice in the black community (via more black males in prison, but I digress)

In the 70s & 80s, you had Jeffery Osborne, Luther Ingram, James Ingram, the unmistakeable Barry White, Freddy Jackson, Rick James, etc., etc., etc. In the 80s, higher registers were more popular but they weren't non-existent by any means. You had voices that were distinctly black male. Even in the 90s, while Babyface was all the rage, there was still Jodeci and Jagged Edge, Donnell Jones, Brian McKnight and the like. There were fewer but they were still there.

That all changed in the 00s. Now, you have Jaheim, Anthony Hamilton, and a small handful of others but most of the voices in R&B are more along the register of Chris Brown; voices that sound like boys rather than men. The black male voice, which has traditionally been a staple of the R&B sound, has been all but removed from R&B as we know it. I DID NOT say that it doesn't exist (as have already cited examples), but it has certainly been reduced to an imbalance in favor of more immature, non-threatening sounding voices. Anyone disagree?

Also, the maturity of songwriting that went along with those voices has also declined substantially. A commanding, powerful voice is often more likely to be heeded that a lighter, softer one. See where I'm going with this? R&B heads, discuss.

(just trying to incite some more interesting conversation on here rather than the same old Beyoncé/MJ/Janet/Kanye/Timberlake talk)

[Edited 5/25/13 8:40am]

Why do black males have lower speaking voices?

Great post by the way. During the Doo-Wop era many groups sought out baritone/bass singers to fill out the spectrum of voices needed for a doo-wop group. In the nineties, the best example was Boyz 2 Men. The bass singer had very few vocal parts on songs, but he often vocalized bass parts in concert by playing with the band. Larry Graham, for example plays like he talks and talks like he plays. I don't know why Black Americans have deeper voices. Maybe someone has the question. But the premise of the post, can be partly answered by the industry's push for music that is targted towards pop muisc sensiblities that want simple and voices that are sung with boys' vocal traits than a grown man's voice. It's why Bruno Mars is big in music and why Anthony Hamilton isn't as big in music.

I think "Mature" "Wise" & "Manly" aren't words/attributes that

the record companies are lining up to get involved in partnerships with-

Stupid, Naive, easily digstable, & easy to manipulate..

seems to be the order of the day-

Interesting observations about the music business. Good stuff.


As far as black males tending to have deeper voices than other groups. I don't have any answers but i also noticed that the black Cubans that Ive meet seem to have deeper speaking voices as well. Compared to say Mexicans or other Spanish speaking people. I never thought about a comparison between black Brazilians and non black Portuguese speaking people. That would be interesting.

[Edited 5/25/13 20:12pm]

destruction of the culture ripping the fabric of american music from all manner of expression from all walks of life (white luminaries as well)

the emasculation of the black male in full motion

its pics like that of chris brown that makes me regret how hard i rally 4 people 2 give him a break . he is soo damn stupid thats y his voice cracking and shit when he attempt 2 sing live all that smoking and joking he doing. when u know ya voice paper thin why fuck it up even worse?? its not like he the male version of whitney houston

So basically, Johnny Gill & Christopher Williams were THE last ever baritone vocalists in the r&b scene thus far. And let not forget the bass vocalist that used to be in Boyz-II-Men.

BlaqueKnight said:

Anyone notice how over the past 25 years or so, the natural lower register of black male voices have been pushed out of R&B music?

Its common knowledge that many black American males have lower speaking voices. At one point (60s-70s) this was a staple of the music being made and there was a balance of range. For every Little Richard, there was a Sam Cooke. Teddy Pendergrass and Luther Vandross were just as common and loved as Michale Jackson (before Thriller) and Prince (before Purple Rain). Male vocal groups had voices in different ranges, not voices that all covered the same octave.

Over the course of the past 20-25 years or so, the distinctive lower register of the black male voice has been filtered out of R&B, as has the commonality of the black male voice in the black community (via more black males in prison, but I digress)

In the 70s & 80s, you had Jeffery Osborne, Luther Ingram, James Ingram, the unmistakeable Barry White, Freddy Jackson, Rick James, etc., etc., etc. In the 80s, higher registers were more popular but they weren't non-existent by any means. You had voices that were distinctly black male. Even in the 90s, while Babyface was all the rage, there was still Jodeci and Jagged Edge, Donnell Jones, Brian McKnight and the like. There were fewer but they were still there.

That all changed in the 00s. Now, you have Jaheim, Anthony Hamilton, and a small handful of others but most of the voices in R&B are more along the register of Chris Brown; voices that sound like boys rather than men. The black male voice, which has traditionally been a staple of the R&B sound, has been all but removed from R&B as we know it. I DID NOT say that it doesn't exist (as have already cited examples), but it has certainly been reduced to an imbalance in favor of more immature, non-threatening sounding voices. Anyone disagree?

Also, the maturity of songwriting that went along with those voices has also declined substantially. A commanding, powerful voice is often more likely to be heeded that a lighter, softer one. See where I'm going with this? R&B heads, discuss.

(just trying to incite some more interesting conversation on here rather than the same old Beyoncé/MJ/Janet/Kanye/Timberlake talk)

[Edited 5/25/13 8:40am]

I think the conspiracy theory fact is looking pretty obvious. It's basically a quiet war on black men that can sing like men with a strong image. Instead of a manly man (Barry White), the industry wants a manchild (Chris Brown) or a metro man (Frank Ocean).

TonyVanDam said:

BlaqueKnight said:

Anyone notice how over the past 25 years or so, the natural lower register of black male voices have been pushed out of R&B music?

Its common knowledge that many black American males have lower speaking voices. At one point (60s-70s) this was a staple of the music being made and there was a balance of range. For every Little Richard, there was a Sam Cooke. Teddy Pendergrass and Luther Vandross were just as common and loved as Michale Jackson (before Thriller) and Prince (before Purple Rain). Male vocal groups had voices in different ranges, not voices that all covered the same octave.

Over the course of the past 20-25 years or so, the distinctive lower register of the black male voice has been filtered out of R&B, as has the commonality of the black male voice in the black community (via more black males in prison, but I digress)

In the 70s & 80s, you had Jeffery Osborne, Luther Ingram, James Ingram, the unmistakeable Barry White, Freddy Jackson, Rick James, etc., etc., etc. In the 80s, higher registers were more popular but they weren't non-existent by any means. You had voices that were distinctly black male. Even in the 90s, while Babyface was all the rage, there was still Jodeci and Jagged Edge, Donnell Jones, Brian McKnight and the like. There were fewer but they were still there.

That all changed in the 00s. Now, you have Jaheim, Anthony Hamilton, and a small handful of others but most of the voices in R&B are more along the register of Chris Brown; voices that sound like boys rather than men. The black male voice, which has traditionally been a staple of the R&B sound, has been all but removed from R&B as we know it. I DID NOT say that it doesn't exist (as have already cited examples), but it has certainly been reduced to an imbalance in favor of more immature, non-threatening sounding voices. Anyone disagree?

Also, the maturity of songwriting that went along with those voices has also declined substantially. A commanding, powerful voice is often more likely to be heeded that a lighter, softer one. See where I'm going with this? R&B heads, discuss.

(just trying to incite some more interesting conversation on here rather than the same old Beyoncé/MJ/Janet/Kanye/Timberlake talk)

[Edited 5/25/13 8:40am]

I think the conspiracy theory fact is looking pretty obvious. It's basically a quiet war on black men that can sing like men with a strong image. Instead of a manly man (Barry White), the industry wants a manchild (Chris Brown) or a metro man (Frank Ocean).

the emasculation in full effect

TonyVanDam said:

BlaqueKnight said:

Anyone notice how over the past 25 years or so, the natural lower register of black male voices have been pushed out of R&B music?

Its common knowledge that many black American males have lower speaking voices. At one point (60s-70s) this was a staple of the music being made and there was a balance of range. For every Little Richard, there was a Sam Cooke. Teddy Pendergrass and Luther Vandross were just as common and loved as Michale Jackson (before Thriller) and Prince (before Purple Rain). Male vocal groups had voices in different ranges, not voices that all covered the same octave.

Over the course of the past 20-25 years or so, the distinctive lower register of the black male voice has been filtered out of R&B, as has the commonality of the black male voice in the black community (via more black males in prison, but I digress)

In the 70s & 80s, you had Jeffery Osborne, Luther Ingram, James Ingram, the unmistakeable Barry White, Freddy Jackson, Rick James, etc., etc., etc. In the 80s, higher registers were more popular but they weren't non-existent by any means. You had voices that were distinctly black male. Even in the 90s, while Babyface was all the rage, there was still Jodeci and Jagged Edge, Donnell Jones, Brian McKnight and the like. There were fewer but they were still there.

That all changed in the 00s. Now, you have Jaheim, Anthony Hamilton, and a small handful of others but most of the voices in R&B are more along the register of Chris Brown; voices that sound like boys rather than men. The black male voice, which has traditionally been a staple of the R&B sound, has been all but removed from R&B as we know it. I DID NOT say that it doesn't exist (as have already cited examples), but it has certainly been reduced to an imbalance in favor of more immature, non-threatening sounding voices. Anyone disagree?

Also, the maturity of songwriting that went along with those voices has also declined substantially. A commanding, powerful voice is often more likely to be heeded that a lighter, softer one. See where I'm going with this? R&B heads, discuss.

(just trying to incite some more interesting conversation on here rather than the same old Beyoncé/MJ/Janet/Kanye/Timberlake talk)

[Edited 5/25/13 8:40am]

I think the conspiracy theory fact is looking pretty obvious. It's basically a quiet war on black men that can sing like men with a strong image. Instead of a manly man (Barry White), the industry wants a manchild (Chris Brown) or a metro man (Frank Ocean).

Good observation. However, I think that has as much to do with industry trends as it does with trying to keep out the masculine black male voice. It used to be okay and even chic to have a baritone male black singer, but then most R&B artists who wanted to have big careers and cross over to the pop charts had to chamge their sound, so the baritone male artists got marginalized within the R&B genre. And then you had the rise of hip-hop, which basically assumed the mantle of black male dominance in music. Sure, there were Jaheim, Tank, and Anthony Hamilton who had some marginal success in R&B in the last decade, but the trend overall was for the higher pitched crooners like Usher, Mario, Lloyd, Omarion, Justin Timberlake and Chris Brown because they could sell more records and appeal to a wider audience.

728huey said:

TonyVanDam said:

I think the conspiracy theory fact is looking pretty obvious. It's basically a quiet war on black men that can sing like men with a strong image. Instead of a manly man (Barry White), the industry wants a manchild (Chris Brown) or a metro man (Frank Ocean).

Good observation. However, I think that has as much to do with industry trends as it does with trying to keep out the masculine black male voice. It used to be okay and even chic to have a baritone male black singer, but then most R&B artists who wanted to have big careers and cross over to the pop charts had to chamge their sound, so the baritone male artists got marginalized within the R&B genre. And then you had the rise of hip-hop, which basically assumed the mantle of black male dominance in music. Sure, there were Jaheim, Tank, and Anthony Hamilton who had some marginal success in R&B in the last decade, but the trend overall was for the higher pitched crooners like Usher, Mario, Lloyd, Omarion, Justin Timberlake and Chris Brown because they could sell more records and appeal to a wider audience.

u just described the formation of the Pop Ascension Movement...this entity is real and it has destroyed the very fabric of genuine music expression since 1987...that's the year this tragedy kicked off...

for the black male performer, either you had to become hyper masculine (thug life), oversexed, or cynical

the lyrical content became mroe hostile as well, the lyrics expressing love between men and women, that's totally gone now....

the great white performers of the golden age, their careers were cut short by this entity too

I'll never let that beautiful stuff go by the wasteside because aint nothing coming down the pike that's going to challenge it

Mstrustme said:

I've been noticing this for years. Many of the male R&B singers have thin, nasal, and whiny voices. Almost unbearable. I wondered why this was so and I do not believe it's a coincidence. The last time I heard a new song with a deep black male voice was on the hook of Macklemore & Ryan's rap music.

I agree. It seems like someone in the rap game decided (albeit a decade too late) to dip into the Eurotrash sound that was popular in Europe light years before it reached the US and it eventually influenced "rap/hip-hop"... I think the worst/best example of this is Nicki Minaj. Her actual "sound" is VERY played out and a rehash from a sound that's been circulating around Europe for a minute now.

Auto-tune and the short attention span of most listeners is what I contribute to the staleness of R&B music in this era (mainstream R&B that is)....

Some more are still around, though not heavilly promoted in mainstream

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John Stoddart - Falling For You

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-

-

In my humble opinion, the soul of R&B music has been drummed out of it for the sake of achieving cross-over success.There's not such thing a R&B/Soul music as some of use knew it.

I think evolution of Rap music with its hyper-macho stance in some respects pushed R&B music out the way period. Could Rap and the R&B of the 60's, 70's, of the early 80's coexist? I don't think so. One group of men were going to emerge looking like chumps and as Rap got harder and harder, I think Black R&B /Soul male singers with bass in their voice lost space on the radio and everywhere else.

On one hand you have grown men singing about love, heartbreak, seduction, and social issues and on the other hand you have a group of males calling each other and women out of their names, and embracing violence as the ultimate solution. I don't hear to many young black men listening to or purchasing songs from Chris Brown or his peers... pre-teen, teenagers, and early twenty girls are buying their stuff. Radio demographic these days are 13 to 20 age group (girls)... get a beat, create some sappy ass lyrics, and singing high.

Bass vocals get some shine in the grown folks genre, at soul weekenders or at crabs-ribs-'n-steaks fests & parties. Dj's from independent online radio stations check places such as cbaby.com, facebook, myspace, reverbnation, soundcloud, twitter or artists' their official websites. Darry D. White followed his father's footsteps.

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Scorp said:

TonyVanDam said:

I think the conspiracy theory fact is looking pretty obvious. It's basically a quiet war on black men that can sing like men with a strong image. Instead of a manly man (Barry White), the industry wants a manchild (Chris Brown) or a metro man (Frank Ocean).

the emasculation in full effect

Bingo.

728huey said:

TonyVanDam said:

I think the conspiracy theory fact is looking pretty obvious. It's basically a quiet war on black men that can sing like men with a strong image. Instead of a manly man (Barry White), the industry wants a manchild (Chris Brown) or a metro man (Frank Ocean).

Good observation. However, I think that has as much to do with industry trends as it does with trying to keep out the masculine black male voice. It used to be okay and even chic to have a baritone male black singer, but then most R&B artists who wanted to have big careers and cross over to the pop charts had to chamge their sound, so the baritone male artists got marginalized within the R&B genre. And then you had the rise of hip-hop, which basically assumed the mantle of black male dominance in music. Sure, there were Jaheim, Tank, and Anthony Hamilton who had some marginal success in R&B in the last decade, but the trend overall was for the higher pitched crooners like Usher, Mario, Lloyd, Omarion, Justin Timberlake and Chris Brown because they could sell more records and appeal to a wider audience.

THAT^ too.

I think it is a reflection of the actual material.

If u listen 2 the lyrics of R&B these days........it is suited 4 these light kid type voices.

Graycap23 said:

I think it is a reflection of the actual material.

If u listen 2 the lyrics of R&B these days........it is suited 4 these light kid type voices.

Whoever listened to kiddie music though? Seriously. My parents weren't listening to kiddie music when they were growing up. I wasn't listening to kiddie music either. I find it strange when I hear people say grown folks music... was there any other kind?

To speak to your opinion its a reflection of the material, I see your point. If the producer and the beat has taken precedence over the artist... maybe it doesn't make a difference what the singer is saying or if they can sing worth a damn.

=========================================

[Edited 5/28/13 21:18pm]

BlaqueKnight said:

Anyone notice how over the past 25 years or so, the natural lower register of black male voices have been pushed out of R&B music? Its common knowledge that many black American males have lower speaking voices.

*

BK, c'mon dude. This premise is unfounded and only serves to reinforce stupid stereotypes.

Been thinking about this one a bit before responding, ummm. I'm not quite sure of what to make of this idea that the present emphasis on the mid registers of the male voice is some plot to emasculate Black men. That's a bit hard to swallow, esp when you consider that BOTH the higher (falsetto) and lower (baritone/bass) registers have largely gone AWOL in popular music. Falsetto, which has a very special place in the Black male singing canon, is also virtually extinct...so?

That said, I've noticed this absence of "the extremes" very much over the years because I'm particularly fond of them. One of the best/worst examples of this was the 1973 release of "Catch A Fire" by the Wailers. I've heard both the Jamaican version and the released versions...they are night and day from each other. The one that came out in '73 is full of all sorts of overdubs (Wayne Perkins and Rabbit Bundrick, mostly) and even their voices had the "bass" scrubbed. It's shocking to hear the contrast between the "new" Jamaican version and the "old" '73 one....they're like two diff groups. It's been said that all the changes happened to make them appeal to the "mainstream" rock crowd. The overdubs I can kinda understand, but fuckin' w/ their voices? Wonder what that's all about?

I def think there's something in the water here and I wonder if it's just a need to make this "accessible and relatable" to the mainstream? Either way I think it's a great loss to popular music when you only deal in mid range tenors.

BlaqueKnight said:

Anyone notice how over the past 25 years or so, the natural lower register of black male voices have been pushed out of R&B music?

Its common knowledge that many black American males have lower speaking voices. At one point (60s-70s) this was a staple of the music being made and there was a balance of range. For every Little Richard, there was a Sam Cooke. Teddy Pendergrass and Luther Vandross were just as common and loved as Michale Jackson (before Thriller) and Prince (before Purple Rain). Male vocal groups had voices in different ranges, not voices that all covered the same octave.

Over the course of the past 20-25 years or so, the distinctive lower register of the black male voice has been filtered out of R&B, as has the commonality of the black male voice in the black community (via more black males in prison, but I digress)

In the 70s & 80s, you had Jeffery Osborne, Luther Ingram, James Ingram, the unmistakeable Barry White, Freddy Jackson, Rick James, etc., etc., etc. In the 80s, higher registers were more popular but they weren't non-existent by any means. You had voices that were distinctly black male. Even in the 90s, while Babyface was all the rage, there was still Jodeci and Jagged Edge, Donnell Jones, Brian McKnight and the like. There were fewer but they were still there.

That all changed in the 00s. Now, you have Jaheim, Anthony Hamilton, and a small handful of others but most of the voices in R&B are more along the register of Chris Brown; voices that sound like boys rather than men. The black male voice, which has traditionally been a staple of the R&B sound, has been all but removed from R&B as we know it. I DID NOT say that it doesn't exist (as have already cited examples), but it has certainly been reduced to an imbalance in favor of more immature, non-threatening sounding voices. Anyone disagree?

Also, the maturity of songwriting that went along with those voices has also declined substantially. A commanding, powerful voice is often more likely to be heeded that a lighter, softer one. See where I'm going with this? R&B heads, discuss.

(just trying to incite some more interesting conversation on here rather than the same old Beyoncé/MJ/Janet/Kanye/Timberlake talk)

[Edited 5/25/13 8:40am]

many black American males have lower speaking voices WTF. Most men have low (deep) speaking voices. Not just black guys. A lot of singers go high because they can and it sounds good over a ballad. We are losing brothers that can just sing period. The RnB world is filled with non singing performers. Once upon a time RnB and Country were the two genres of music were you had to be able to sing. I think it has more to do with the music industry not wanting to put the money behind real RnB singers because they think RnB guys cannot cross over and maybe they are correct. Luther Vandross had a great singing voice and he never had crossover success until he died. Perhaps the masses (white folks ) do not like a baritone or bass voice coming from a brother. Is it Marketing or Public taste.

[Edited 5/29/13 6:48am]

Its to make black men appear less threatening & intimidating. Versus scaring you into listening to them like Teddy Pendagrass use to do...

Yes, I have noticed. Particularly when Chris Brown was the attention magnet and

it does seem that most new R&B males voices that received aggressive support from the major

labels are either mature yet high voices (Neo, Usher, John Legend, Miguel) or youthful teenager types of voices similar to Chris Brown's voice.

Its seems that the business has grown more conservative and narrowly focused on repeating recent proven, very large scale successes because most, but not all, top executives focus only on furnishing what they think the majority of present R&B enthusiasts want. Examples of recent large scale successes would be Justin Timberlake, Usher, Chris Brown, Donnell Jones ("U Know What's Up", "You Know That I Love You" which are not that recent but were at the start of the mostly high -pitched voices trend), and R Kelly's hits for the past 5 years.

I think voices like Timbaland's and Anthony Hamilton's are rare at this point R&B history for both for their lowness and their above-average quality.

We need these types of voices and talents to give interested listeners a complete low-medium-high vocal pitch\octave diversity of the pleasures that male R&B voices can provide at this point in R&B history.

It is a shame and a travesty that Jaheim's material choices on his later LPs got so bizarre and shall we say substantially less enjoyable and fun than the stuff on his first two LPs. He really

should have had a Neo/R Kelly/Teddy Pendergrass type of sustained success and streak

of hits that would be as classic as "Just In Case" and the hits on his second album.

As I have paid attention to the trends that develop the voice issue has happened in rap, too.

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Its to make black men appear less threatening & intimidating. Versus scaring you into listening to them like Teddy Pendagrass use to do...

Please. Teddy sang and panties dropped. Same with Luther. Women weren't scared; they were turned on. Don't believe that Eddie Murphy bullshit. His voice is as light as a fly's footsteps, so of course he would hate. The O'Jays sang and MEN would listen. A heavy, commanding voice holds much power. If Ving Rhames told you to get your ass over here and Katt Williams told you, which one would you listen to? Rhames of course! Without even seeing him, his voice has strength.

Most women consider lower voices to be sexier.

BlaqueKnight said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

Its to make black men appear less threatening & intimidating. Versus scaring you into listening to them like Teddy Pendagrass use to do...

Please. Teddy sang and panties dropped. Same with Luther. Women weren't scared; they were turned on. Don't believe that Eddie Murphy bullshit. His voice is as light as a fly's footsteps, so of course he would hate. The O'Jays sang and MEN would listen. A heavy, commanding voice holds much power. If Ving Rhames told you to get your ass over here and Katt Williams told you, which one would you listen to? Rhames of course! Without even seeing him, his voice has strength.

Most women consider lower voices to be sexier.

*
A lot of this is remarkably unfounded. I know you created this thread (with its insupportable

premise that A) black men have a naturally low voice and B) this naturally low Black voice

is being drummed out of R&B) in order to steer talk away from a preponderance of MJ-centric

posting, but Michael Jackson's tenor could be considered "feminine" at some points and he had

people swooning. And Luther Vandross was a tenor as well - this is the second highest voice

type for men.