PatrickS77 said:

whatsgoingon said:

The Jacksons obviously have issues, every single one of them. And in away I can understand why Michael distance himself from them. However, I do believe being around his family did keep him GROUNDED to a certain extent. Michael free-fall into la-la land started in earnest when he completely distance himself from his family.

And lets face it, even musically MJ best years were when he was still around his family. I still believe his highlights musically were between 1978 to 1982, when year after year he released classic album after classic album with his brothers and solo. When he stopped completely working with his brothers he practically only did 3.5 albums in the last 20 years of his life, and quite personally I do not think Bad, Dangerous and History were his best work. Michael actually musical legacy rest mainly on the era of 1969 to 1984. If his legacy rested on the last 20 years of his life, you would get very little music, but lots of scandals.

[Edited 12/31/11 23:55pm]

BS! Many people only really got into Michael during his Bad, Dangerous and HIStory albums! Those where his most successful albums. So to exempt those from his legacy just shows what fools some people are!

And after releasing albums year after year for 15 years, it was just within his rights to take it a little bit slower and it wasn't like he just sat around doing nothing! He released Bad in 87 and was touring from 87 to 91. He released Dangerous in '91 and was touring '92 and '93 and he released HIStory in '95 and was promoting and touring HIStory from '95 to '97. And as a young father he clearly had other priorities after that! So stop making up your own versions of things! The period '82 to '97 was just as important than the one before!

And like someone pointed out before, he didn't completly distance himself.

I usually don't respond to posts like this, but I am glad you are responding with facts! It's obvious MJ was the most successful being the solo performer he was. I can't stand when people ignore BAD- INVINCIBLE these were strong strikes of passion and creativity! Thank you for highlightig the facts!

EyeJester7 said:

PatrickS77 said:

BS! Many people only really got into Michael during his Bad, Dangerous and HIStory albums! Those where his most successful albums. So to exempt those from his legacy just shows what fools some people are!

And after releasing albums year after year for 15 years, it was just within his rights to take it a little bit slower and it wasn't like he just sat around doing nothing! He released Bad in 87 and was touring from 87 to 91. He released Dangerous in '91 and was touring '92 and '93 and he released HIStory in '95 and was promoting and touring HIStory from '95 to '97. And as a young father he clearly had other priorities after that! So stop making up your own versions of things! The period '82 to '97 was just as important than the one before!

And like someone pointed out before, he didn't completly distance himself.

I usually don't respond to posts like this, but I am glad you are responding with facts! It's obvious MJ was the most successful being the solo performer he was. I can't stand when people ignore BAD- INVINCIBLE these were strong strikes of passion and creativity! Thank you for highlightig the facts!

Fact is he only did 3.5 albums in the last 20 years of his life and was engulfed in controversy constantly. We know many people got into MJ after the Bad era. But the problem with such people is that they have no clue how things were before Bad or better still before Thriller.

There was a lot more music output albeit they didn't all sell billions and we didn't even get a fraction of the constant controversies, silliness and accussations that happened in the last 20 years of his life, when he had practically cut all ties with his brothers. These are facts and anyone that remembers MJ career well before Thriller knows that, because everything was practically unravelling in front of our eyes.

whatsgoingon said:

EyeJester7 said:

I usually don't respond to posts like this, but I am glad you are responding with facts! It's obvious MJ was the most successful being the solo performer he was. I can't stand when people ignore BAD- INVINCIBLE these were strong strikes of passion and creativity! Thank you for highlightig the facts!

Fact is he only did 3.5 albums in the last 20 years of his life and was engulfed in controversy constantly. We know many people got into MJ after the Bad era. But the problem with such people is that they have no clue how things were before Bad or better still before Thriller.

There was a lot more music output albeit they didn't all sell billions and we didn't even get a fraction of the constant controversies, silliness and accussations that happened in the last 20 years of his life, when he had practically cut all ties with his brothers. These are facts and anyone that remembers MJ career well before Thriller knows that, because everything was practically unravelling in front of our eyes.

And again, you overlook Bad (I know, that makes it the 22 last years of his life)! Bad, Dangerous, History, BOTDF and Invincible.... that's 4 and half albums + countless classic videos and 11 mio sold concert tickets and 300 concerts. Just because he was a slave to the music business (or driven) in the first 30 years of his life, who released an album almost every year, doesn't mean he had to continue that until the rest of his life. Like I said before, he became a father, so clearly his career wasn't really a priority anymore in the past 12 years of his life!

[Edited 1/3/12 0:15am]

PatrickS77 said:

whatsgoingon said:

He put out more music and hadrdly had any scandals or controversies in the first 15 yrs of his career, when he was still tied closely to his brothers.

Hmm... maybe he wasn't important enough, when he still was with his brothers?? The bigger the star, the bigger the target?? "Thriller", anyone?? He was a child and a teen, when he was with his brothers, he was a grown up, when he went solo. So to say the one thing has something to do with the other is a shallow assumption.

But of course, when it comes to Michael Jackson, people always believe what they want to believe. And again, he wasn't sitting around doing nothing between albums! The work he put into those albums... promotion and touring got just so much more than in the first 15 years of his career. There was no time for more albums.

Fact is he only did 3.5 albums in the last 20 years of his life and was engulfed in controversy constantly. We know many people got into MJ after the Bad era. But the problem with such people is that they have no clue how things were before Bad or better still before Thriller.

There was a lot more music output albeit they didn't all sell billions and we didn't even get a fraction of the constant controversies, silliness and accussations that happened in the last 20 years of his life, when he had practically cut all ties with his brothers. These are facts and anyone that remembers MJ career well before Thriller knows that, because everything was practically unravelling in front of our eyes.

And again, you overlook Bad (I know, that makes it the 22 last years of his life)! Bad, Dangerous, History, BOTDF and Invincible.... that's 4 and half albums + countless classic videos and 11 mio sold concert tickets and 300 concerts. Just because he was a slave to the music business (or driven) in the first 30 years of his life, who released an album almost every year, doesn't mean he had to continue that until the rest of his life. Like I said before, he became a father, so clearly his career wasn't really a priority anymore in the past 12 years of his life!

[Edited 1/3/12 0:15am]

You are obviously a fan from the Bad era onwards, blaming the media for everything. Anyone pre-bad ERA saw the changes in Michael, it was laid bare for all of us to see. I am not the greatest fan of the media, we all know the media tells lies and exaggerate but I and so many others could see certain things unravelling. From someone who came across as reasonably down to earth , considering his background to someone who fell into La-la land and never seem to get out till the day he died. Say what you want, but it's a great coincide this happened in earnest when he completely distance himself from his family.

In away it makes sense he went solo, he became bigger than the group, but going back now and again with his brothers wouldn't have done him much harm, not musically or emotionally.

And Please MJ was doing tours with his brothers, from the age of 11 & you know what? he actually did alot more live singing in those tours than he ever did in the Dangerous and History tours, which became all about the dance.

[Edited 1/3/12 15:52pm]

[Edited 1/3/12 15:53pm]

[Edited 1/3/12 16:01pm]

whatsgoingon said:

PatrickS77 said:

Hmm... maybe he wasn't important enough, when he still was with his brothers?? The bigger the star, the bigger the target?? "Thriller", anyone?? He was a child and a teen, when he was with his brothers, he was a grown up, when he went solo. So to say the one thing has something to do with the other is a shallow assumption.

But of course, when it comes to Michael Jackson, people always believe what they want to believe. And again, he wasn't sitting around doing nothing between albums! The work he put into those albums... promotion and touring got just so much more than in the first 15 years of his career. There was no time for more albums.

Fact is he only did 3.5 albums in the last 20 years of his life and was engulfed in controversy constantly. We know many people got into MJ after the Bad era. But the problem with such people is that they have no clue how things were before Bad or better still before Thriller.

There was a lot more music output albeit they didn't all sell billions and we didn't even get a fraction of the constant controversies, silliness and accussations that happened in the last 20 years of his life, when he had practically cut all ties with his brothers. These are facts and anyone that remembers MJ career well before Thriller knows that, because everything was practically unravelling in front of our eyes.

And again, you overlook Bad (I know, that makes it the 22 last years of his life)! Bad, Dangerous, History, BOTDF and Invincible.... that's 4 and half albums + countless classic videos and 11 mio sold concert tickets and 300 concerts. Just because he was a slave to the music business (or driven) in the first 30 years of his life, who released an album almost every year, doesn't mean he had to continue that until the rest of his life. Like I said before, he became a father, so clearly his career wasn't really a priority anymore in the past 12 years of his life!

[Edited 1/3/12 0:15am]

You are obviously a fan from the Bad era onwards, blaming the media for everything. Anyone pre-bad ERA saw the changes in Michael. from someone who came across as reasonably down to earth , considering his background to someone who fell into La-la land and never seem to get out till the day he died.

In away it makes sense he went solo, he became bigger than the group, but going back now and again with his brother wouldn't have done him much harm, not musically or emotionally.

Why keep debating with Patrick? It's apparent that he just doesn't get it and will never conceed to the facts/truth.

CANUHELPME said:

PatrickS77 said:

Why should he? Why would he want to do that? There was no real time between his albums anyway. He spent promoting and touring an album for 2,5 years after it's release. Besides he was building his solo career! Building an image of this outerworldly, worldwide, megastar, rising higher than anyone before him. The Jacksons didn't really have a part in that and would have hindered him and worked pretty much against that!

But like I said, after the trial, after recovering, he should have done something with them. Go full circle in a way.

Also I have to say, I do not sense that there was a really big desire in the family anyway! I mean, they released only 1 album without him. Jermaine stopped making music in '91 altogether. Why would/should he drag them along, when they are not willing (or not capable) to try anything on their own (they would be just baggage at that point)??

But again, for the record. I would have loved seeing them getting back together at one point. And their reunion at the 30th anniversary show was the highlight for me.

[Edited 12/29/11 9:15am]

Songs like Lovely One, This Place Hotel, and Be Not Always would not have been included on his solo albums. I think he could have released more creative music through the group.

He did not have to work with the hottest producer. He could have taken chances on a Jacksons album.

I understand you and many others love MJ the megastar. I just wish his die hard fans and Sony would embrace his entire career.

My favourite ballad by Michael, is Time Waits for No One, written for him by his brothers on the Truimph album. If it weren't for him still working with his brothers after the OTW album, we wouldn't get to hear such precious gems. I personally think some of his best music came from albums like Destiny and Triumph, where he worked closely with his brothers. I do think he lost something musically by distancing his brothers.

whatsgoingon said:

You are obviously a fan from the Bad era onwards, blaming the media for everything. Anyone pre-bad ERA saw the changes in Michael, it was laid bare for all of us to see. I am not the greatest fan of the media, we all know the media tells lies and exaggerate but I and so many others could see certain things unravelling. From someone who came across as reasonably down to earth , considering his background to someone who fell into La-la land and never seem to get out till the day he died. Say what you want, but it's a great coincide this happened in earnest when he completely distance himself from his family.

Changes?? What changes did you see, other than vitiligo and plastic surgery (which started whilst he still was with his brothers). Maybe the changes you saw was just the way the media was reporting about Michael! He was the way he was, all along! Just watch his interviews throughout the seventies, early eighties and so forth. If you disregard all the media crap that was put on him, there wasn't all that much change when you follow all the interviews he did throughout his career. Obviously he became a bit more cynical and maybe stubborn, after all the crap he was put through though.

And Please MJ was doing tours with his brothers, from the age of 11 & you know what? he actually did alot more live singing in those tours than he ever did in the Dangerous and History tours, which became all about the dance.

Yeah, but those didn't take him around the world and were less time consuming. My point was, that he kept busy between album releases and didn't do just nothing. He did what he could with the time we had without being in a music business treadmill

rdhull said:

Why keep debating with Patrick? It's apparent that he just doesn't get it and will never conceed to the facts/truth.

The only ones, who are not getting things are the ones blaming everything that has happened on Michael and his decision to leave his brothers! Things are not black and white. There are many factors, which led to what has happened. What you're doing is speculating and putting your own opinions in there and not really interpreting the facts.

whatsgoingon said:

I personally think some of his best music came from albums like Destiny and Triumph, where he worked closely with his brothers. I do think he lost something musically by distancing his brothers.

Ah! How telling!

And for the record, I also do love his Jackson 5/Jacksons stuff and would have loved if he would have reunited with his brothers (but I think I said that before).

[Edited 1/3/12 16:24pm]

I am much bigger fan of his solo work, especially in 1987-1997, although the group also created a lot of good songs that need more attention of the public. But I think that MJ left the group at the right time.

As for the concerts, the Тriumph was a great tour. Victory - no. I do not know what was wrong, but Michael just not laid out and was too depressed.

Bad was much much better, I do consider it one of the greatest tours for a solo artist ever -------->> Only Michael and his current status (physical and emotional) determines the quality of the product.

Also, does anyone really believe that the family had a strong influence on him? To be honest, I'm his fan, but for his personality, I think so: take a very spoiled and stubborn child X10 and you get about the nature of Michael's at the peak of his popularity. I do not believe that at least one person in the world could affect him, just do not believe it.

PatrickS77 said:

whatsgoingon said:

You are obviously a fan from the Bad era onwards, blaming the media for everything. Anyone pre-bad ERA saw the changes in Michael, it was laid bare for all of us to see. I am not the greatest fan of the media, we all know the media tells lies and exaggerate but I and so many others could see certain things unravelling. From someone who came across as reasonably down to earth , considering his background to someone who fell into La-la land and never seem to get out till the day he died. Say what you want, but it's a great coincide this happened in earnest when he completely distance himself from his family.

Changes?? What changes did you see, other than vitiligo and plastic surgery (which started whilst he still was with his brothers). Maybe the changes you saw was just the way the media was reporting about Michael! He was the way he was, all along! Just watch his interviews throughout the seventies, early eighties and so forth. If you disregard all the media crap that was put on him, there wasn't all that much change when you follow all the interviews he did throughout his career. Obviously he became a bit more cynical and maybe stubborn, after all the crap he was put through though.

Yeah, but those didn't take him around the world and were less time consuming. My point was, that he kept busy between album releases and didn't do just nothing. He did what he could with the time we had without being in a music business treadmill

rdhull said:

Why keep debating with Patrick? It's apparent that he just doesn't get it and will never conceed to the facts/truth.

The only ones, who are not getting things are the ones blaming everything that has happened on Michael and his decision to leave his brothers! Things are not black and white. There are many factors, which led to what has happened. What you're doing is speculating and putting your own opinions in there and not reallyp interpreting the facts.

Look, you are showing what era you became a fan, from Bad era onwards...The peter Pan/King of Pop/Wacko Jacko era...the hype era with the silly PR stunts and accussations, which you blame all on the media. I have been reading about MJ in the media since the 70s, so the changes are going to be much more stark and evident to me. The media played it's own part, but half of those stories wouldn't have happened if MJ overall behaviour was different. If he and his PR people handle things differently. Did you really think it was his brothers telling him to do silly pr stunts, have sleepovers with young children that later went on to accuse him and completely destroy his once beautiful face? When he was with his family those PR stunts and accussations did not exist. Like most famous people, there was a rumour here and a rumour there, but nothing like what we got from the latter part of the 80s, not even close to that. Whether you like it or not, he came across as more grounded when he was with his brothers.

There is a Telling scene at the beginning of the "Making of Thriller" where one of his fans says the reason why she liked Michael Jackson so much at the time was because " He was down earth", From the Bad era onwards even his most ardent fans could not say that about him anymore.

[Edited 1/4/12 1:54am]

[Edited 1/6/12 10:49am]

whatsgoingon said:

PatrickS77 said:

The only ones, who are not getting things are the ones blaming everything that has happened on Michael and his decision to leave his brothers! Things are not black and white. There are many factors, which led to what has happened. What you're doing is speculating and putting your own opinions in there and not reallyp interpreting the facts.

Look, you are showing what era you became a fan, from Bad era onwards...

Which means he dont know shit.

reported thread. Turned into MJ.