bell hooks starts off nice. And then she goes for the ugly truth. Madonna-stans will NOT like this!

If you think THIS^ was harsh, check out bell hooks' essay:

http://stevenstanley.trip...donna.html

Madonna: Plantation Mistress or Soul Sister?

bell hooks


From 'Black Looks: Race and Representation'

Subversion is contextual, historical, and above all social. No matter how exciting the "destabitizing" potential of texts, bodily or otherwise, whether those texts are subversive or recuperative or both or neither cannot be determined by abstraction from actual social practice.
--Susan Bordo

White women "stars" like Madonna, Sandra Bernhard, and many others publicly name their interest in, and appropriation of, black culture as yet another sign of their radical chic. Intimacy with that "nasty" blackness good white girls stay away from is what they seek. To white and other nonblack consumers, this gives them a special flavor, an added spice. After all it is a very recent historical phenomenon for any white girl to be able to get some mileage out of flaunting her fascination and envy of blackness. The thing about envy is that it is always ready to destroy, erase, take over, and consume the desired object. That's exactly what Madonna attempts to do when she appropriates and commodifies aspects of black culture. Needless to say this kind of fascination is a threat. It endangers. Perhaps that is why so many of the grown black women I spoke with about Madonna had no interest in her as a cultural icon and said things like, "The bitch can't even sing." It was only among young black females that I could find die-hard Madonna fans. Though I often admire and, yes at times, even envy Madonna because she has created a cultural space where she can invent and reinvent herself and receive public affirmation and material reward, I do not consider myself a Madonna fan.

Once I read an interview with Madonna where she talked about her envy of black culture, where she stated that she wanted to be black as a child. It is a sign of white privilege to be able to "see" blackness and black culture from a standpoint where only the rich culture of opposition black people have created in resistance marks and defines us. Such a perspective enables one to ignore white supremacist domination and the hurt it inflicts via oppression, exploitation, and everyday wounds and pains. White folks who do not see black pain never really understand the complexity of black pleasure. And it is no wonder then that when they attempt to imitate the joy in living which they see as the "essence" of soul and blackness, their cultural productions may have an air of sham and falseness that may titillate and even move white audiences yet leave many black folks cold. Needless to say, if Madonna had to depend on masses of black women to maintain her status as cultural icon she would have been dethroned some time ago. Many of the black women I spoke with expressed intense disgust and hatred of Madonna. Most did not respond to my cautious attempts to suggest that underlying those negative feelings might lurk feelings of envy, and dare I say it, desire. No black woman I talked to declared that she wanted to "be Madonna."

Yet we have only to look at the number of black women entertainers/stars (Tina Turner, Aretha Franklin, Donna Summer, Vanessa Williams, Yo-Yo, etc.) who gain greater crossover recognition when they demonstrate that, like Madonna, they too, have a healthy dose of "blonde ambition." Clearly their careers have been influenced by Madonna's choices and strategies. For masses of black women, the political reality that underlies Madonna's and our recognition that this is a society where "blondes" not only "have more fun" but where they are more likely to succeed in any endeavor is white supremacy and racism. We cannot see Madonna's change in hair color as being merely a question of aesthetic choice. I agree with Julie Burchill in her critical work Girls on Film, when she reminds us: "What does it say about racial purity that the best blondes have all been brunettes (Harlow, Monroe, Bardot)? I think it says that we are not as white as we think. I think it says that Pure is a Bore." I also know that it is the expressed desire of the nonblonde Other for those characteristics that are seen as the quintessential markers of racial aesthetic superiority that perpetuate and uphold white supremacy. In this sense Madonna has much in common with the masses of black women who suffer from internalized racism and are forever terrorized by a standard of beauty they feel they can never truly embody.

Like many black women who have stood outside the culture's fascination with the blonde beauty and who have only been able to reach it through imitation and artifice, Madonna often recalls that she was a working-class white girl who saw herself as ugly, as outside the mainstream beauty standard. And indeed what some of us like about her is the way she deconstructs the myth of "natural" white girl beauty by exposing the extent to which it can be and is usually artificially constructed and maintained. She mocks the conventional racist-defined beauty ideal even as she rigorously strives to embody it. Given her obsession with exposing the reality that the ideal female beauty in this society can be attained by artifice and social construction, it should come as no surprise that many of her fans are gay men, and that the majority of nonwhite men, particularly black men, are among that group. Jennie Livingston's film Paris Is Burning suggests that many black gay men, especially queens/divas, are as equally driven as Madonna by "blonde ambition." Madonna never lets her audience forget that whatever "look" she acquires is attained by hard work--"it ain't natural." And as Burchill comments in her chapter "Homosexual Girls": I have a friend who drives a cab and looks like a Marlboro Man but at night is the second best Jean Harlow I have ever seen. He summed up the kind of film star he adores, brutally and brilliantly, when he said, "I like actresses who look as if they've spent hours putting themselves together--and even then they don't look right." Certainly no one, not even die-hard Madonna fans, ever insists that her beauty is not attained by skillful artifice. And indeed, a major point of the documentary film Truth or Dare: In Bed With Madonna was to demonstrate the amount of work that goes into the construction of her image. Yet when the chips are down, the image Madonna most exploits is that of the quintessential "white girl." To maintain that image she must always position herself as an outsider in relation to black culture. It is that position of outsider that enables her to colonize and appropriate black experience for her own opportunistic ends even as she attempts to mask her acts of racist aggression as affirmation. And no other group sees that as clearly as black females in this society. For we have always known that the socially constructed image of innocent white womanhood relies on the continued production of the racist/sexist sexual myth that black women are not innocent and never can be. Since we are coded always as "fallen" women in the racist cultural iconography we can never, as can Madonna, publicly "work" the image of ourselves as innocent female daring to be bad. Mainstream culture always reads the black female body as sign of sexual experience. In part, many black women who are disgusted by Madonna's flaunting of sexual experience are enraged because the very image of sexual agency that she is able to project and affirm with material gain has been the stick this society has used to justify its continued beating and assault on the black female body. The vast majority of black women in the United States, more concerned with projecting images of respectability than with the idea of female sexual agency and transgression, do not often feel we have the "freedom" to act in rebellious ways in regards to sexuality without being punished. We have only to contrast the life story of Tina Tumer with that of Madonna to see the different connotations "wild" sexual agency has when it is asserted by a black female. Being represented publicly as an active sexual being has only recently enabled Turner to gain control over her life and career. For years the public image of aggressive sexual agency Turner projected belied the degree to which she was sexually abused and exploited privately. She was also materially exploited. Madonna's career could not be all that it is if there were no Tina Turner and yet, unlike her cohort Sandra Bernhard, Madonna never articulates the cultural debt she owes black females.

In her most recent appropriations of blackness, Madonna almost always imitates phallic black masculinity. Although I read many articles which talked about her appropriating male codes, no critic seems to have noticed her emphasis on black male experience. In his Playboy profile, "Playgirl of the Western World," Michael Kelly describes Madonna's crotch grabbing as "an eloquent visual put-down of male phallic pride." He points out that she worked with choreographer Vince Paterson to perfect the gesture. Even though Kelly tells readers that Madonna was consciously imitating Michael Jackson, he does not contextualize his interpretation of the gesture to include this act of appropriation from black male culture. And in that specific context the groin grabbing gesture is an assertion of pride and phallic domination that usually takes place in an all-male context. Madonna's imitation of this gesture could just as easily be read as an expression of envy.

Throughout [many] of her autobiographical interviews runs a thread of expressed desire to possess the power she perceives men have. Madonna may hate the phallus, but she longs to possess its power. She is always first and foremost in competition with men to see who has the biggest penis. She longs to assert phallic power, and like every other group in this white supremacist society, she clearly sees black men as embodying a quality of maleness that eludes white men. Hence they are often the group of men she most seeks to imitate, taunting white males with her own version of"black masculinity." When it comes to entertainment rivals, Madonna clearly perceives black male stars like Prince and Michael Jackson to be the standard against which she must measure herself and that she ultimately hopes to transcend.

Fascinated yet envious of black style, Madonna appropriates black culture in ways that mock and undermine, making her presentation one that upstages. This is most evident in the video "Like a Prayer." Though I read numerous articles that discussed public outrage at this video, none focused on the issue of race. No article called attention to the fact that Madonna flaunts her sexual agency by suggesting that she is breaking the ties that bind her as a white girl to white patriarchy, and establishing ties with black men. She, however, and not black men, does the choosing. The message is directed at white men. It suggests that they only labeled black men rapists for fear that white girls would choose black partners over them. Cultural critics commenting on the video did not seem at all interested in exploring the reasons Madonna chooses a black cultural backdrop for this ~video, i.e., black church and religious experience. Clearly, it was this backdrop that added to the video's controversy.

In her commentary in the Washington Post, "Madonna: Yuppie Goddess," Brooke Masters writes: "Most descriptions of the controversial video focus on its Catholic imagery: Madonna kisses a black saint, and develops Christ-like markings on her hands. However, the video is also a feminist fairy tale. Sleeping Beauty and Snow White waited for their princes to come along, Madonna finds her own man and wakes him up." Notice that this writer completely overlooks the issue of race and gender. That Madonna's chosen prince was a black man is in part what made the representation potentially shocking and provocative to a white supremacist audience. Yet her attempt to exploit and transgress traditional racial taboos was rarely commented on. Instead critics concentrated on whether or not she was violating taboos regarding religion and representation.

In the United States, Catholicism is most often seen as a religion that has [few] or no black followers and Madonna's video certainly perpetuates this stereotype with its juxtaposition of images of black nonCatholic representations with the image of the black saint. Given the importance of religious experience and liberation theology in black life, Madonna's use of this imagery seemed particularly offensive. For she made black characters act in complicity with her as she aggressively flaunted her critique of Catholic manners, her attack on organized religion. Yet, no black voices that I know of came forward in print calling attention to the fact that the realm of the sacred that is mocked in this film is black religious experience, or that this appropriative "use" of that experience was offensive to many black folk. Looking at the video with a group of students in my class on the politics of sexuality where we critically analyze the way race and representations of blackness are used to sell products, we discussed the way in which black people in the video are caricatures reflecting stereotypes. They appear grotesque. The only role black females have in this video is to catch (i.e., rescue) the "angelic" Madonna when she is "falling." This is just a contemporary casting of the black female as Mammy. Made to serve as supportive backdrop for Madonna's drama, black characters in "Like a Prayer" remind one of those early Hollywood depictions of singing black slaves in the great plantation movies or those Shirley Temple films where Bojangles was trotted out to dance with Miss Shirley and spice up her act. Audiences were not supposed to be enamored of Bojangles, they were supposed to see just what a special little old white girl Shirley really was. In her own way Madonna is a modern day Shirley Temple. Certainly her expressed affinity with black culture enhances her value.

Eager to see the documentary Truth ar Dare because it promised to focus on Madonna's transgressive sexual persona, which I find interesting, I was angered by her visual representations of her domination over not white men (certainly not over Warren Beatty or Alek Keshishian), but people of color and white working-class women. I was too angered by this to appreciate other aspects of the film I might have enjoyed. In Truth or Dare Madonna clearly revealed that she can only think of exerting power along very traditional, white supremacist, capitalistic, patriarchal lines. That she made people who were dependent on her for their immediate livelihood submit to her will was neither charming nor seductive to me or the other black folks that I spoke with who saw the film. We thought it tragically ironic that Madonna would choose as her dance partner a black male with dyed blonde hair. Perhaps had he appeared less like a white-identified black male consumed by "blonde ambition" he might have upstaged her. Instead he was positioned as a mirror, into which Madonna and her audience could look and see only a reflection of herself and the worship of "whiteness" she embodies-- that white supremacist culture wants everyone to embody. Madonna used her power to ensure that he and the other nonwhite women and men who worked for her, as well as some of the white subordinates, would all serve as the backdrop to her white-girl-makes-good-drama. Joking about the film with other black folks, we commented that Madonna must have searched long and hard to find a black female that was not a good dancer, one who would not deflect attention away from her. And it is telling that when the film directly reflects something other than a positive image of Madonna, the camera highlights the rage this black female dancer was suppressing. It surfaces when the "subordinates" have time off and are "relaxing."

As with most Madonna videos, when critics talk about this film they tend to ignore race. Yet no viewer can look at this film and not think about race and representation without engaging in forms of denial. After choosing a cast of characters from marginalized groups--nonwhite folks, heterosexual and gay, and gay white folks--Madonna publicly describes them as "emotional cripples." And of course in the context of the film this description seems borne out by the way they allow her to dominate, exploit, and humiliate them. Those Madonna fans who are determined to see her as politically progressive might ask themselves why it is she completely endorses those racist/sexist/classist stereotypes that almost always attempt to portray marginalized groups as "defective" Let's face it, by doing this, Madonna is not breaking with any white supremacist, patriarchal status quo; she is endorsing and perpetuating it.

Some of us do not find it hip or cute for Madonna to brag that she has a "fascistic side," a side well documented in the film. Well, we did not see any of her cute little fascism in action when it was Warren Beatty calling her out in the film. No, there the image of Madonna was the little woman who grins and bears it. No, her "somebody's got to be in charge side," as she names it, was most expressed in her interaction with those representatives from marginalized groups who are most often victimized by the powerful. Why is it there is little or no discussion of Madonna as racist or sexist in her relation to other women? Would audiences be charmed by some rich white male entertainer telling us he must "play father" and oversee the actions of the less powerful, especially women and men of color? So why did so many people find it cute when Madonna asserted that she dominates the interracial casts of gay and heterosexual folks in her film because they are crippled and she "like[s] to play mother" No, this was not a display of feminist power, this was the same old phallic nonsense with white pussy at the center. And many of us watching were not simply unmoved--we were outraged.

Perhaps it is a sign of a collective feeling of powerlessness that many black, nonwhite, and white viewers of this film who were disturbed by the display of racism, sexism, and heterosexism (yes, it's possible to hire gay people, support AIDS projects, and still be biased in the direction of phallic patriarchal heterosexuality) in Truth or Dare have said so little. Sometimes it is difficult to find words to make a critique when we find ourselves attracted by some aspect of a performer's act and disturbed by others, or when a performer shows more interest in promoting progressive social causes than is customary. We may see that performer as above critique. Or we may feel our critique will in no way intervene on the worship of them as a cultural icon. To say nothing, however, is to be complicit with the very forces of domination that make "blonde ambition" necessary to Madonna's success. Tragically, all that is transgressive and potentially empowering to feminist women and men about Madonna's work may be undermined by all that it contains that is reactionary and in no way unconventional or new. It is often the conservative elements in her work converging with the status quo that have the most powerful impact. For example: Given the rampant homophobia in this society and the concomitant heterosexist voyeuristic obsession with gay life-styles, to what extent does Madonna progressively seek to challenge this if she insists on primarily representing gays as in some way emotionally handicapped or defective? Or when Madonna responds to the critique that she exploits gay men by cavalierly stating: "What does exploitation mean? . . . In a revolution, some people have to get hurt. To get people to change, you have to turn the table over. Some dishes get broken." I can only say this doesn't sound like liberation to me. Perhaps when Madonna explores those memories of her white working-class childhood in a troubled family in a way that enables her to understand intimately the politics of exploitation, domination, and submission, she will have a deeper connection with oppositional black culture. If and when this radical critical self-interrogation takes place, she will have the power to create new and different cultural productions, work that will be truly transgressive--acts of resistance that transform rather than simply seduce.

[Edited 4/22/11 9:53am]

[Edited 4/22/11 9:56am]

Never heard about this interview, did Madonna really say that?

robertlove said:

Never heard about this interview, did Madonna really say that?

http://findarticles.com/p..._17932598/

TonyVanDam said:

bell hooks starts off nice. And then she goes for the ugly truth. Madonna-stans will NOT like this!

They didn't: http://prince.org/msg/8/357450

I was hoping for an objective answer, so much for that

oh tony... she actually goes harder in her criticism of madonna in the essay 'plantation mistress or soul sister'. that's a great one.

Interesting interview.

She must turn........that particular trick.

Harlepolis said:

TonyVanDam said:

bell hooks starts off nice. And then she goes for the ugly truth. Madonna-stans will NOT like this!

They didn't: http://prince.org/msg/8/357450

I was hoping for an objective answer, so much for that

Chico didn't like any of that shit at all!

i love bell hooks. she so deserves toni morrison/maya angelou type visibility. she can go HARD when she gets started. LOL

MJJstudent said:

oh tony... she actually goes harder in her criticism of madonna in the essay 'plantation mistress or soul sister'. that's a great one.

I found it! I'll print it in my opening post.

[Edited 4/22/11 9:45am]

TonyVanDam said:

MJJstudent said:

oh tony... she actually goes harder in her criticism of madonna in the essay 'plantation mistress or soul sister'. that's a great one.

Help me find a link to that essay so I can re-rdit my opening post.

Here you go:

http://stevenstanley.trip...donna.html

It's very poorly written, but I'm hoping that's just the transcription. She makes some bizarre claims. Her entire argument is invalid anyway because Madonna is a black woman. She had 1 black relative back in the 1700s so according to the one drop rule she is black. I just talked to Halle Berry and she agrees.

*I have no problem with people trashing Madonna because I don't take stuff like that personally. I love her music but I don't care if someone else doesn't like her. I mean, I don't like seafood but some other people do. I'm not going to crticize them for it and adopt a holier-than-thou attitude. I can give an objective opinion.*

As someone with a BA in sociology, I found this article interesting but I think it's poorly written. She doesn't give much evidence to back up her claims of Madonna appropriating black culture. It's all just conjecture that's informed by her own personal experiences that existed long before she ever heard of Madonna.

Besides, if we don't appropriate cultures we'll possibly end up separatists. Appropriation isn't always bad. There's a difference between a white woman wearing blackface and a white woman getting box braids because she thinks it's pretty.

In the end, what does any of it matter? Madonna was as much a superstar/icon the day after Hooks criticism of her as she was the day before it. Whatever shine she thought she was taking off her name and fame with that silly, sour grapes rant (that turned into an obscure article) didn't work.

That article is bullshit. I'm black and I think Madonna is badass, in fact I think so even more the older I get. You really have to appreciate and respect the fact that this is a woman who worked her ass off to get where she is now, and I like the way she calls all her own shots, is her own woman, does her own thing, and answers to no one.

From one Leo to another, much much respect for Madonna. End of.

armpit said:

That article is bullshit. I'm black and I think Madonna is badass, in fact I think so even more the older I get. You really have to appreciate and respect the fact that this is a woman who worked her ass off to get where she is now, and I like the way she calls all her own shots, is her own woman, does her own thing, and answers to no one.

From one Leo to another, much much respect for Madonna. End of.

Well that's only part of the point. Just because someone is famous and successful doesn't mean they aren't immoral or racist or bigoted. Not saying Madonna is, just clarifying that part.

However, this chick took her comment out of perspective and its really disturbing to see someone be castigated so harshly when she didn't even say that. The article I linked above shows the full comment she made and how it was about black men being disrespectful to women in general, the ones she dated anyway, and that they were disrespectful to women because of how much shit they had to take on the chin. That doesn't sound racist to me - it sounds like an honest interpretation of events. She may be right or wrong (and I am sure someone will jump in to tell me how wrong I am cuz I am not black), but its her honest experience and I feel that Madonna is not a liar, not a bigot, not racist, etc. Frankly, I think Madonna is too into herself to have any time to devote to routinely hating on people.

That's a long ass article and I got bored with it but it sounded like "damned if you do, or damned if you don't" to me. If she hates black people, then she's a racist but if she admires and immitates them, she's also a racist.

If Madonna was making racist comments and then turning around making money off of a black sounding music, then I could see a problem. But if she has made racist comments before, I've never heard her and I've never really thought much of her music sounded "black sounding" anyway except for "Everybody" and "Vogue".

vainandy said:

That's a long ass article and I got bored with it but it sounded like "damned if you do, or damned if you don't" to me. If she hates black people, then she's a racist but if she admires and immitates them, she's also a racist.

If Madonna was making racist comments and then turning around making money off of a black sounding music, then I could see a problem. But if she has made racist comments before, I've never heard her and I've never really thought much of her music sounded "black sounding" anyway except for "Everybody" and "Vogue".

agree.

vainandy said:

That's a long ass article and I got bored with it but it sounded like "damned if you do, or damned if you don't" to me. If she hates black people, then she's a racist but if she admires and immitates them, she's also a racist.

If Madonna was making racist comments and then turning around making money off of a black sounding music, then I could see a problem. But if she has made racist comments before, I've never heard her and I've never really thought much of her music sounded "black sounding" anyway except for "Everybody" and "Vogue".

Off the topic but I thought "Everybody" was the shit back then. I remember DJ's running that song on black stations like it was the latest joint from Donna Summer or somebody. Don't know how well it charted back then on the Pop charts but Madonna started off with mad love on Urban radio. Nobody (or most) didn't know she was white because the single cover didn't have Madonna's picture on it. Frankly most of my friends, didn't care.

I'm done......

I don't know about y'all but if I was a teen in 1982 and "Everybody" came on the air, I wouldn't have assumed she was "black" at all. I still don't get why they thought she was black... even if I was to close my eyes and hear the tracks, my first thought wouldn't be "damn Diana Ross got a hot new track". And Donna Summer surely didn't sound like that.

Musicslave said:

vainandy said:

That's a long ass article and I got bored with it but it sounded like "damned if you do, or damned if you don't" to me. If she hates black people, then she's a racist but if she admires and immitates them, she's also a racist.

If Madonna was making racist comments and then turning around making money off of a black sounding music, then I could see a problem. But if she has made racist comments before, I've never heard her and I've never really thought much of her music sounded "black sounding" anyway except for "Everybody" and "Vogue".

Off the topic but I thought "Everybody" was the shit back then. I remember DJ's running that song on black stations like it was the latest joint from Donna Summer or somebody. Don't know how well it charted back then on the Pop charts but Madonna started off with mad love on Urban radio. Nobody (or most) didn't know she was white because the single cover didn't have Madonna's picture on it. Frankly most of my friends, didn't care.

I'm done......

Lucky Star was definitely r&b the first time I heard it on the radio in New Orleans.

TonyVanDam said:

Musicslave said:

Off the topic but I thought "Everybody" was the shit back then. I remember DJ's running that song on black stations like it was the latest joint from Donna Summer or somebody. Don't know how well it charted back then on the Pop charts but Madonna started off with mad love on Urban radio. Nobody (or most) didn't know she was white because the single cover didn't have Madonna's picture on it. Frankly most of my friends, didn't care.

I'm done......

Lucky Star was definitely r&b the first time I heard it on the radio in New Orleans.

Wasn't that whole debuted geared toward R&B stations though? I always assumed that considering that Reggie Lucas(of Mtume) produced it.

TonyVanDam said:

Musicslave said:

Off the topic but I thought "Everybody" was the shit back then. I remember DJ's running that song on black stations like it was the latest joint from Donna Summer or somebody. Don't know how well it charted back then on the Pop charts but Madonna started off with mad love on Urban radio. Nobody (or most) didn't know she was white because the single cover didn't have Madonna's picture on it. Frankly most of my friends, didn't care.

I'm done......

Lucky Star was definitely r&b the first time I heard it on the radio in New Orleans.

I didn't think it was "R&B". It was definitely pop to me. In fact, I never considered the first album "R&B". Her only attempt to have an "R&B" sound came with Bedtime Stories even though there have been R&B influences in her music so I'm not knocking that scenario. I just never got that part whenever Madonna is criticized either favorably or unfavorably. She's been a pop/dance artist since day one.

Timmy84 said:

I don't know about y'all but if I was a teen in 1982 and "Everybody" came on the air, I wouldn't have assumed she was "black" at all. I still don't get why they thought she was black... even if I was to close my eyes and hear the tracks, my first thought wouldn't be "damn Diana Ross got a hot new track". And Donna Summer surely didn't sound like that.

Most of the music for Madonna's self-titled debut had plenty of black musicians involved. Even if you knew Madonna was vocaliy a white girl, those musicians were r&b sounding. I notice that quickly the first time I heard Holiday & Lucky Star.

Harlepolis said:

TonyVanDam said:

Lucky Star was definitely r&b the first time I heard it on the radio in New Orleans.

Wasn't that whole debuted geared toward R&B stations though? I always assumed that considering that Reggie Lucas(of Mtume) produced it.

No. Only "Holiday" was (why? I don't know lol). I don't even think black stations played "Physical Attraction" for example.

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't know about y'all but if I was a teen in 1982 and "Everybody" came on the air, I wouldn't have assumed she was "black" at all. I still don't get why they thought she was black... even if I was to close my eyes and hear the tracks, my first thought wouldn't be "damn Diana Ross got a hot new track". And Donna Summer surely didn't sound like that.

Most of the music for Madonna's self-titled debut had plenty of black musicians involved. Even if you knew Madonna was vocaliy a white girl, those musicians were r&b sounding. I notice that quickly the first time I heard Holiday & Lucky Star.

Yeah because black always equals R&B. I get it though because of the sound but even if I was to play "I Never Knew Love Like This Before", I wouldn't classify it as R&B, same with Phyllis Hyman's "You Know How to Love Me". One was disco and another was disco pop. They didn't change much of that sound with Madonna. I think anybody could've sung a Reggie Lucas song and hit gold regardless of what the sound was or the color of that artist.

[Edited 4/22/11 13:44pm]

Musicslave said:

vainandy said:

That's a long ass article and I got bored with it but it sounded like "damned if you do, or damned if you don't" to me. If she hates black people, then she's a racist but if she admires and immitates them, she's also a racist.

If Madonna was making racist comments and then turning around making money off of a black sounding music, then I could see a problem. But if she has made racist comments before, I've never heard her and I've never really thought much of her music sounded "black sounding" anyway except for "Everybody" and "Vogue".

Off the topic but I thought "Everybody" was the shit back then. I remember DJ's running that song on black stations like it was the latest joint from Donna Summer or somebody. Don't know how well it charted back then on the Pop charts but Madonna started off with mad love on Urban radio. Nobody (or most) didn't know she was white because the single cover didn't have Madonna's picture on it. Frankly most of my friends, didn't care.

I'm done......

That's the way it was in my area. The black stations were the only stations that played it. I think it was originally released as a 12 Inch only before she even had an album out and most 12 Inches didn't have a cover, strictly a sleeve with a big hole in the middle where you could read the label.

Timmy84 said:

I don't know about y'all but if I was a teen in 1982 and "Everybody" came on the air, I wouldn't have assumed she was "black" at all. I still don't get why they thought she was black... even if I was to close my eyes and hear the tracks, my first thought wouldn't be "damn Diana Ross got a hot new track". And Donna Summer surely didn't sound like that.

The music sounded "black" or at least like what was being played on black radio at the time. It didn't sound like funk like Cameo or The Barkays or anything like that. When I first heard it, I immediately thought is somebody that released a 12 Inch rather than a full album. Somebody like Freeeze or Libra or something. The music was kind of a "new sound" at the time that was mainly on 12 Inches rather than the traditional funk that was by artists that released albums.

Harlepolis said:

TonyVanDam said:

Lucky Star was definitely r&b the first time I heard it on the radio in New Orleans.

Wasn't that whole debuted geared toward R&B stations though? I always assumed that considering that Reggie Lucas(of Mtume) produced it.

Good question. Madonna was a dance-pop artist since Day 1, yet needed a black r&b producer to help make a great album. Even during the goldern years of cable TV, they were showing the videos for Borderline & Lucky Star on MTV & BET on the same week!

Correct me if I'm wrong about the exact timeline, but I believe it was also around THAT^ time that Madonna provoked a minor controversy concerning the way she rejected the comparison with Teena Marie.

TonyVanDam said:

Harlepolis said:

Wasn't that whole debuted geared toward R&B stations though? I always assumed that considering that Reggie Lucas(of Mtume) produced it.

Good question. Madonna was a dance-pop artist since Day 1, yet needed a black r&b producer to help make a great album. Even during the goldern years of cable TV, they were showing the videos for Borderline & Lucky Star on MTV & BET on the same week!

Correct me if I'm wrong about the exact timeline, but I believe it was also around THAT^ time that Madonna provoked a minor controversy concerning the way she rejected the comparison with Teena Marie.

She did? I had no idea.

TonyVanDam said:

Harlepolis said:

Wasn't that whole debuted geared toward R&B stations though? I always assumed that considering that Reggie Lucas(of Mtume) produced it.

Good question. Madonna was a dance-pop artist since Day 1, yet needed a black r&b producer to help make a great album.

Also remember, this was still in the afermath of the "Disco Sucks" music so the majority of "dance" was black and hated by most white people. They were mainly into rock and new wave. If she wanted a dance record, she had no other choice but to go with someone black to help her because the majority of whites (well, at least straight whites anyway) had abandoned it. From what I understand, there was a whole underground white gay "Hi NRG" era that went on in the years after disco died until house took over later.

vainandy said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't know about y'all but if I was a teen in 1982 and "Everybody" came on the air, I wouldn't have assumed she was "black" at all. I still don't get why they thought she was black... even if I was to close my eyes and hear the tracks, my first thought wouldn't be "damn Diana Ross got a hot new track". And Donna Summer surely didn't sound like that.

The music sounded "black" or at least like what was being played on black radio at the time. It didn't sound like funk like Cameo or The Barkays or anything like that. When I first heard it, I immediately thought is somebody that released a 12 Inch rather than a full album. Somebody like Freeeze or Libra or something. The music was kind of a "new sound" at the time that was mainly on 12 Inches rather than the traditional funk that was by artists that released albums.

Early 1980's black radio stations was defintely open minded. How else can we explain why AND how acts like Blondie, The Human League, Hall & Oates, and Madonna were getting radio play.

vainandy said:

TonyVanDam said:

Good question. Madonna was a dance-pop artist since Day 1, yet needed a black r&b producer to help make a great album.

Also remember, this was still in the afermath of the "Disco Sucks" music so the majority of "dance" was black and hated by most white people. They were mainly into rock and new wave. If she wanted a dance record, she had no other choice but to go with someone black to help her because the majority of whites (well, at least straight whites anyway) had abandoned it. From what I understand, there was a whole underground white gay "Hi NRG" era that went on in the years after disco died until house took over later.

Exactly.