darlingnikkkki said:

Naomi Smalls was not one of my favorite this All Stars season (her season was not memorable for me) but she definitely wowed me with her Prince look and thought she had the best lip synth this past episode with those moves highlighting her “legs for days.” Rooting for her now!

IstenSzek said:

3stori3s said:

Ok, how about a different perspective on this?

.

I am a male who dates and has sex with other males. I don't subscribe to labels, therefore I'm not "gay" or "bi" or anything. Just me.

.

I believe that the idolization of drag queens and "gay culture" is extremely detrimental to the equal rights of homosexual people, and often get called a "homophobe" for this view, but my opinion on all this is actually FAR more progressive than the "gay pride activists" who do ridiculous things like wear giant inflatable penis suits, march in parades, dress as women, and wave rainbow flags around

.

How about we all just act like our natural, innate personas, instead of subscribing to the belief that you are supposed to 'celebrate' the fact that you're gay/bi/trans/a drag queen/whatever.... isn't that separating and distancing yourself from 'everyone else', which is the exact opposite of the goal of equality and treating all human beings the same?

there's something to be said for that. the extremes are never really cute.

however, i think it's more detrimental and more worrying that more and more people don't want
to be labeled as gay anymore. even if they really are. but no, everyone is non binary and cis now.

cute.

there are people who are non binary, i'm sure and there are people who are cis.

but it seems like more and more people just don't want to come out anymore and so they just
keep repeating that they don't want to be labeled, that gender and sexuality is fluid etc etc.

also cute.

but when everyone is at home, being non specific and invisible, it's going to become harder and
harder again for the kids who actually have the balls to stand up and be proud to be who they
are, willing to go to marches, to embrace even the more 'ridiculous' parts of gay culture just to
keep reminding people that it's ok to be gay and be yourself.

i used to not like the excesses either, but more and more i'm coming round to thinking that if we
all sit on the couch, don't visit gay bars anymore ("we don't need gay bars, god!, why would
we put ourselves in boxes and separate ourselves from straight people? we can just go
to a regular bar if we want to hook up with someone. besides, i'm gender fluid, so i might
even hook up with a woman heheheheh. oh wait, give me a second, i'm getting new
grindr messages. why go to a bar if you can hook up at home heheheh. guys in bars only
look for sex. gross! and i might even run into a drag queen at a bar. barf!!')** and all act
like pride is no longer necassery, we're going
to regress to a point where all gay people stay in the closet and repression is just 1 step further
down the road.


** the quote is something that was actually said to me in a 'discussion' outside of a gay bar. it was
said to me by two people trying to convince me that drag queens and 'visible gayness' are shocking
and totally not what gay people need.

i mingled in their loud (can everyone hear us?) conversation where they were proclaiming that it
was 'his' own fault (a couple of queens had been beaten up in the city centre a few weeks prior)
for being out in drag and what did you expect? besides, they should just act like men and not be
such pussies when a group attacked them. and now they were getting attention in the press and
being victims and boohoo, they were invited on a boat for the yearly pride float. pride! they could
not understand why we still need pride. pride was horrible, disgusting, shamefull.

so i couldn't just stay silent and tried to reason with them (and well, basically tell them they are
silly little cunts, filled with self loathing and a warped sense of what emancipation is)

the 1st one was a guy i'd had a short fling with just a few months prior. gay as fuck.
the 2nd one, who is often to be found at this gay bar, actually claims to be straight

these kind of people really make me sick and they are more shocking and weird than any drag queen
could ever be. the self hate of some people is just so obvious and yet they don't see it.

the 'fling' has been texting me to hook up again. i've ghosted the fuck out of him. would not put my
dick anywhere near that anymore.


aaaanyway, i'm not attacking you or saying you are like these people 3stori3s, i don't know you and
i've never spoken with you. but in regards to what you wrote, yeah, i was triggered


..

[Edited 1/20/19 4:30am]

Much appreciate the discussion! Not as up on all this as I should be, so please excuse "getting up to speed" presence. I DO know that this touches on an area that's a little fraught these days. Not wanting to stir things up, but genuinely curious.

Are you skeptical of gender dysphoria (in the way of feeling that one's true gender is not the gender assigned at birth and/or that one is both male and female -- I'm aware that some think we should dispense with gender concept altogether, but will leave it with first two examples for now) in straight people, or perhaps in all people? So, as an example, do you believe that people who speak of being straight and having gender dysphoria are extremely likely to be gay/lesbian, but not able to come to terms with that?

[Edited 1/22/19 9:32am]

rednblue said:

IstenSzek said:

there's something to be said for that. the extremes are never really cute.

however, i think it's more detrimental and more worrying that more and more people don't want
to be labeled as gay anymore. even if they really are. but no, everyone is non binary and cis now.

cute.

there are people who are non binary, i'm sure and there are people who are cis.

but it seems like more and more people just don't want to come out anymore and so they just
keep repeating that they don't want to be labeled, that gender and sexuality is fluid etc etc.

also cute.

but when everyone is at home, being non specific and invisible, it's going to become harder and
harder again for the kids who actually have the balls to stand up and be proud to be who they
are, willing to go to marches, to embrace even the more 'ridiculous' parts of gay culture just to
keep reminding people that it's ok to be gay and be yourself.

i used to not like the excesses either, but more and more i'm coming round to thinking that if we
all sit on the couch, don't visit gay bars anymore ("we don't need gay bars, god!, why would
we put ourselves in boxes and separate ourselves from straight people? we can just go
to a regular bar if we want to hook up with someone. besides, i'm gender fluid, so i might
even hook up with a woman heheheheh. oh wait, give me a second, i'm getting new
grindr messages. why go to a bar if you can hook up at home heheheh. guys in bars only
look for sex. gross! and i might even run into a drag queen at a bar. barf!!')** and all act
like pride is no longer necassery, we're going
to regress to a point where all gay people stay in the closet and repression is just 1 step further
down the road.


** the quote is something that was actually said to me in a 'discussion' outside of a gay bar. it was
said to me by two people trying to convince me that drag queens and 'visible gayness' are shocking
and totally not what gay people need.

i mingled in their loud (can everyone hear us?) conversation where they were proclaiming that it
was 'his' own fault (a couple of queens had been beaten up in the city centre a few weeks prior)
for being out in drag and what did you expect? besides, they should just act like men and not be
such pussies when a group attacked them. and now they were getting attention in the press and
being victims and boohoo, they were invited on a boat for the yearly pride float. pride! they could
not understand why we still need pride. pride was horrible, disgusting, shamefull.

so i couldn't just stay silent and tried to reason with them (and well, basically tell them they are
silly little cunts, filled with self loathing and a warped sense of what emancipation is)

the 1st one was a guy i'd had a short fling with just a few months prior. gay as fuck.
the 2nd one, who is often to be found at this gay bar, actually claims to be straight

these kind of people really make me sick and they are more shocking and weird than any drag queen
could ever be. the self hate of some people is just so obvious and yet they don't see it.

the 'fling' has been texting me to hook up again. i've ghosted the fuck out of him. would not put my
dick anywhere near that anymore.


aaaanyway, i'm not attacking you or saying you are like these people 3stori3s, i don't know you and
i've never spoken with you. but in regards to what you wrote, yeah, i was triggered


..

[Edited 1/20/19 4:30am]

Much appreciate the discussion! Not as up on all this as I should be, so please excuse "getting up to speed" presence. I DO know that this touches on an area that's a little fraught these days. Not wanting to stir things up, but genuinely curious.

Are you skeptical of gender dysphoria (in the way of feeling that one's true gender is not the gender assigned at birth and/or that one is both male and female -- I'm aware that some think we should dispense with gender concept altogether, but will leave it with first two examples for now) in straight people, or perhaps in all people? So, as an example, do you believe that people who speak of being straight and having gender dysphoria are extremely likely to be gay/lesbian, but not able to come to terms with that?

[Edited 1/22/19 9:32am]

i think it's extremely difficult to conjure up a number on these things but i'm pretty sure that
whatever form of dysphoria you can think of, there are people who are born with it. there is
even a form of species dysphoria.

and i think that we should respect everyone for who they are and how they identify.

so long as they are genuine and don't use a 'non label' or a 'non gay label' simply because
they don't wish to be labeled gay.

part of it is probably the fact that everything becomes more visible and 'big' on the internet,
since we can all get in touch and learn about different people and the way they live and love.

however. ask yourself how many times you've seen bisexual guys in your environment go from
a relationship with a man to living with a woman.

it's still always the married men with kids who all of a sudden have a boyfriend and then get
a divorce.

even younger men who are my age or even younger, who should not have had that big of a
problem coming out. especially in the netherlands where i live.

but i'm digressing.

how many people do you know or know of, who identified as bisexual and have had a long
term relationship or been married to a man and then leave him for a woman?

i know of exactly zero such cases.

doesn't mean they don't exist. they're just rare. a small percentage of a minority.

yet it seems these days that the 'small percentage' is becoming bigger than the actual
minority. if that makes sense. i don't know how else to put it.

how many guys in a straight relationship do you know that identify as gay/bi/trans/cis?

no too many, right?

yet gay guys having sex with men or even living with one claim to be 'mostly straight'
or at least bisexual. all of the fucking time. and other gay men are drawn to them like
moths to a flame. as if you're somehow more of a man because you say you like to be
with women too.

people are strange.

i should specify though that eventho i've mentioned it, i'm not talking about transgender people.
my point of view is specifically relating to gay people who no longer come out and instead 'label'
themselves as non binary or bisexual.

not only is that being dishonest with yourself, it's also causing confusion for people who actually
are non binary, bisexual, or otherwise.

however. people are free to be who and what and how they want to be, so if you don't want to
come out as gay, that's fine.

i just find it worrying that more and more people seem to be of the state of mind that coming out
is not something they want to do, because they 'aren't gay'. the reasoning for that. i've explained
in my first post.

IstenSzek said:

rednblue said:

Much appreciate the discussion! Not as up on all this as I should be, so please excuse "getting up to speed" presence. I DO know that this touches on an area that's a little fraught these days. Not wanting to stir things up, but genuinely curious.

Are you skeptical of gender dysphoria (in the way of feeling that one's true gender is not the gender assigned at birth and/or that one is both male and female -- I'm aware that some think we should dispense with gender concept altogether, but will leave it with first two examples for now) in straight people, or perhaps in all people? So, as an example, do you believe that people who speak of being straight and having gender dysphoria are extremely likely to be gay/lesbian, but not able to come to terms with that?

[Edited 1/22/19 9:32am]

i think it's extremely difficult to conjure up a number on these things but i'm pretty sure that
whatever form of dysphoria you can think of, there are people who are born with it. there is
even a form of species dysphoria.

and i think that we should respect everyone for who they are and how they identify.

so long as they are genuine and don't use a 'non label' or a 'non gay label' simply because
they don't wish to be labeled gay.

part of it is probably the fact that everything becomes more visible and 'big' on the internet,
since we can all get in touch and learn about different people and the way they live and love.

however. ask yourself how many times you've seen bisexual guys in your environment go from
a relationship with a man to living with a woman.

it's still always the married men with kids who all of a sudden have a boyfriend and then get
a divorce.

even younger men who are my age or even younger, who should not have had that big of a
problem coming out. especially in the netherlands where i live.

but i'm digressing.

how many people do you know or know of, who identified as bisexual and have had a long
term relationship or been married to a man and then leave him for a woman?

i know of exactly zero such cases.

doesn't mean they don't exist. they're just rare. a small percentage of a minority.

yet it seems these days that the 'small percentage' is becoming bigger than the actual
minority. if that makes sense. i don't know how else to put it.

how many guys in a straight relationship do you know that identify as gay/bi/trans/cis?

no too many, right?

yet gay guys having sex with men or even living with one claim to be 'mostly straight'
or at least bisexual. all of the fucking time. and other gay men are drawn to them like
moths to a flame. as if you're somehow more of a man because you say you like to be
with women too.

people are strange.

Thanks very much for your response! Points taken. I've learned a lot, too, with just one example being what you described connected to "other gay men are drawn to them like
moths to a flame." I had no idea! Will be left pondering that one for a while.

Also, any case of the bolded above is really sad.

I'm interested in all this generally, and there are also people in my life who give me specific reasons to want to learn. I've worked as a teacher's aide, and a few of the 10 to 12 year-olds explained that they felt like they truly were both boys and girls. Not one gender or the other.

Perhaps relevant to thread is one person who told me years ago that he's liked to cross dress (correct term?) since some time in childhood. He usually does so in private, but did so publicly on several occasions. We went to college together. Anyway, speaking of liking cross dressing is not (obviously) the same as stating one's sexuality or gender. This particular person is by description, and for all appearances to me, attracted to women. My impression is that he had a bunch of big crushes on and relationships with women before and after college. He eventually married a woman.

Also, perhaps second example above is not at all relevant to the thread, as what I'm describing may be an entirely different world/thing from the world of that show, and not only because my friend is not on television, LOL.

Anyway, the examples aren't meant as a support for any point of view. They're just people who have expanded my thinking.

Again, really appreciate your response!

Edited to add: Got a little concerned about bumbling my way into being offensive due to lack of education on this topic. Read a bit, and came across this, someone's four-year-old answer to the only slightly related question of whether there can be straight drag queens. Will delete if a bit long and too far off topic:

"Some people think that Drag queens is a gay- only art form because it removes it from the fetish community and, more importantly, because of Drag's history. Drag queens is a name that was basically an insult that feminine gays reclaimed during the mccarthy era. Mccarthy sought out to not only persecute commies but "unamerican" people including LGBT. In 1950's grenwich village, police were instructed to arrest anyone wearing a female article of clothing. In protest, gay men put on shows where they wore hyper feminine and flamboyant outfits in clubs as protest. One of the most famous clubs that drag queens went to is a mob-owned club called stonewall (stonewall riots). the tradition of dragqueens being symbol for gay rights can be seen in any gay pride parade, paris is burning documentary and Andy worhol's 1960's movie about drag.

one thing to remember is there is a difference between female impersonator and drag queens. A drag queen must have a developed alter ego that is separate from their male counterpart. Ben dela creme is the best example of this because the queen's boy identity is shy and introspective wheras dela's "terminally delightful" personality is the part of ben that feels like he has overcome his depression. Impersonators are moreso just playing a role. examples of female impersonators are: Shakespearian actors, some like it hot and Madea. Tyler perry is not a drag queen because madea is not his alter ego or even someone he identifies with.

SO BASICALLY: people who think that drag is a performance art for gay men to express their feminine side and challenge societies roles, they would call a straight drag queen ( even if they work at drag clubs) a female impersonator or a boy in a dress. I think that this attitude is changing because fishy queens are becoming more popular. Unlike low camp, high camp, underground, clubkid and dragball styles of drag, fishy is the least politically and socially consious; if you look like a girl your in. A straight person could do this type of drag."


https://www.reddit.com/r/...ag_queens/

[Edited 1/23/19 9:02am]

IstenSzek said:

i should specify though that eventho i've mentioned it, i'm not talking about transgender people.
my point of view is specifically relating to gay people who no longer come out and instead 'label'
themselves as non binary or bisexual.

not only is that being dishonest with yourself, it's also causing confusion for people who actually
are non binary, bisexual, or otherwise.

however. people are free to be who and what and how they want to be, so if you don't want to
come out as gay, that's fine.

i just find it worrying that more and more people seem to be of the state of mind that coming out
is not something they want to do, because they 'aren't gay'. the reasoning for that. i've explained
in my first post.

Thanks! I didn't see this before responding to your other reply.

By "no longer come out," do you mean people who switch to stating some degree of attraction to women in that they stop calling themselves gay, and start calling themselves sexuality-nonbinary or bi?

If a smaller percentage of those who are out re: sexuality are identifying as gay, I think it makes sense to ask why.

IstenSzek said:

paulludvig said:

Non-binery/gender fluid has been more accepted for women for a long time. The men are just figuring out that the label might work for them as well. IstenSzek said:

i should specify though that eventho i've mentioned it, i'm not talking about transgender people.
my point of view is specifically relating to gay people who no longer come out and instead 'label'
themselves as non binary or bisexual.

not only is that being dishonest with yourself, it's also causing confusion for people who actually
are non binary, bisexual, or otherwise.

however. people are free to be who and what and how they want to be, so if you don't want to
come out as gay, that's fine.

i just find it worrying that more and more people seem to be of the state of mind that coming out
is not something they want to do, because they 'aren't gay'. the reasoning for that. i've explained
in my first post.

The differences in how relatively well various things are accepted by the "mainstream," and segments of the "nonmainstream" as well, are really something.

Sometimes, I've just gotta roll my eyes or shake my head.

Edited to add: After looking into the author a little more, it's clear that this writer's questioning goes beyond Rent. As for me, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that tonight's performance will be fantastic, and I'm looking forward to having tons of fun with every second of it. : )

https://www.buzzfeed.com/...rag-queens


Hope tonight's Rent performance knocks it out of the park! Very excited for it!

As suggested before, I'm the opposite of expert on topics like what's mentioned in following quote.

Interested to hear thoughts, if anyone finds the topic worthy.

"Larson’s untimely death froze Angel somewhere in gender limbo and left RENTheads perplexed for decades to come. Indeed, however, Jonathan Larson’s writing about queer characters is conjecture akin to Michael Crichton writing about dinosaurs, rendering any attempts to answer the questions about Angel’s identity (What does Collins insistence that he ‘likes boys’ say about Angel? Why is it even plausible that lovers in a queer romance surround themselves exclusively with messy straight people?) an exercise in futility."

https://www.out.com/news-opinion/2019/1/25/angels-gender-identity-rents-most-enduring-mystery

[Edited 1/27/19 10:20am]

mynameisnotsusan said:

darlingnikkkki said:

Naomi Smalls was not one of my favorite this All Stars season (her season was not memorable for me) but she definitely wowed me with her Prince look and thought she had the best lip synth this past episode with those moves highlighting her “legs for days.” Rooting for her now!

I'll just leave this here...

Kinda leading OT from Prince discussion, but Naomi Smalls and Valentina being the Bottom 2 of last episode (making the club) was "f***ed up", like what Latrice Royale said.

SoftSkarlettLovisa said:

Kinda leading OT from Prince discussion, but Naomi Smalls and Valentina being the Bottom 2 of last episode (making the club) was "f***ed up", like what Latrice Royale said.

They were the bottom team because they had the most basic concept followed by undercooked execution. It was a clearcut decision.

NouveauDance said:

They were the bottom team because they had the most basic concept followed by undercooked execution. It was a clearcut decision.

i have to agree here.

they had some cute ideas, but it wasn't enough. the other teams were way more fun
and they kept it moving along a lot better.

i did laugh at the constant 'club nineteeeesiiiix' tho

so what club would you guys visit? i'd like to spend some $ at The Black Hole

TrivialPursuit said:

SoftSkarlettLovisa said:

Kinda leading OT from Prince discussion, but Naomi Smalls and Valentina being the Bottom 2 of last episode (making the club) was "f***ed up", like what Latrice Royale said.

hey girl, come here, let's talk some sh!t

StrangeButTrue said:

I'm not even a big fan of this show but u guys are here tangenting about the most recent episode and I don't see anyone mentioning that the voiceover prior to Club 96 RuPaul says "glam slam thank you ma'am"

oh i caught that and i chuckled when i heard it

Caught that too. I think that was Ru's nod to Naomi's doing Prince the previous episode, carrying on the theme, I know Ru is a longtime fan.

IstenSzek said:

i have to agree here.

they had some cute ideas, but it wasn't enough. the other teams were way more fun
and they kept it moving along a lot better.

i did laugh at the constant 'club nineteeeesiiiix' tho

so what club would you guys visit? i'd like to spend some $ at The Black Hole

I'd love to go to The Beehive, just to look fancy

.

I'm scared Naomi might go home in tonight's episode though

Matthaus said:

IstenSzek said:

i have to agree here.

they had some cute ideas, but it wasn't enough. the other teams were way more fun
and they kept it moving along a lot better.

i did laugh at the constant 'club nineteeeesiiiix' tho

so what club would you guys visit? i'd like to spend some $ at The Black Hole

I'd love to go to The Beehive, just to look fancy

.

I'm scared Naomi might go home in tonight's episode though

yeah, the competition is heating up. i don't really want to see anyone go,
but someone has to.

Latin said:

Check out the video entitled "Naomi Smalls' 'Prince Inspired' Makeup Tutorial": https://m.youtube.com/wat...LHgG5j8NW4

Thanks I loved Naomi applying lip liner to her already plumped lips.

Bianca Del Rio explained the art of drag which is "not so much to look like a woman, but to be an extended version of a woman". This would apply to celebrity impersonations, like Naomi Smalls doing Prince, Chad Michaels as Cher, Kennedy Davenport as Little Richard and Ben De La Creme as Maggie Smith.

Prince was flamboyant with his makeup, and moulded the female gender and the male gender, but he never went as campy as drag queens.