databank said:

Strive said:

databank said:

I think Genesia has explained her position quite clearly, without any strawmanning. I couldn't have said it better than her so I didn't feel there was much I could add.

.

IDK what point you're trying to make really. It's there, it's done, critics love it, it charts well, we're getting a new Prince record, everyone's happy, life goes on and there'll be other releases. Just let go.

The problem with just letting go is that it creates an echo chamber. Just look at your post "critics love it, it charts well, everyone's happy". So, in your mind, all my points are invalid because nobody agrees with me. Yet I still exist. I didn't buy P&M83, I didn't illegally download a copy for my collection, I listened to it once through Apple Music and I left negative reviews in various places. How will the estate improve in the future if I'm silent today?

Wow - you don't think much of yourself, do you?

Genesia said:

Strive said:

databank said: The problem with just letting go is that it creates an echo chamber. Just look at your post "critics love it, it charts well, everyone's happy". So, in your mind, all my points are invalid because nobody agrees with me. Yet I still exist. I didn't buy P&M83, I didn't illegally download a copy for my collection, I listened to it once through Apple Music and I left negative reviews in various places. How will the estate improve in the future if I'm silent today?

Wow - you don't think much of yourself, do you?

I agree with Strive.

PennyPurple said:

Genesia said:

Wow - you don't think much of yourself, do you?

I agree with Strive.

And...?

Strive said:

databank said:

I think Genesia has explained her position quite clearly, without any strawmanning. I couldn't have said it better than her so I didn't feel there was much I could add.

.

IDK what point you're trying to make really. It's there, it's done, critics love it, it charts well, we're getting a new Prince record, everyone's happy, life goes on and there'll be other releases. Just let go.

The problem with just letting go is that it creates an echo chamber. Just look at your post "critics love it, it charts well, everyone's happy". So, in your mind, all my points are invalid because nobody agrees with me.

Honestly I usually don't care much about critics let alone sales, but here I see a win-win situation for most everyone. And while this release may not change our perception of Prince's music, it may change the perception of many a casual listener who only knows him through his hits and may never have listened to ONA because it's a 2002 release that doesn't make as much media noise as this one release does today. Honestly if the Estate had asked me what I wanted, this release wouldn't have been on top of my priority list, at all. Not because I don't think it's an interesting release but because it's something I already had albeit in substandard audio quality. But I'm always happy to get a new Prince recording (or one with improved sound quality) and, more importantly, it's not about me...

Yet I still exist.

...and it's not about you either! Prince's music is not about you. It never was. It's about Prince and whomever in the world is lucky enough to enjoy it. I think your points are (mostly) invalid because regardless of what could or even should have been released instead, this release is worthy of existence in itself, and hasn't been tinkered with posthumously which I believe is the only thing that should be ruled as unacceptable. There's much more in the vault, and many recordings that may be more desirable for hardcore fans one way or another but this one, at least, is out. And it's cool.

Genesia said:

PennyPurple said:

I agree with Strive.

And...?

Catering 2 the non Prince fan doesn't make a lot of sense 2 me.

The man released 38 years worth of material.

If aren't a fan by now.......why worry about it.

The direction of the Estate at this point has me scratching my head.

[Edited 9/24/18 13:23pm]

databank said:

Graycap23 said:

Catering 2 the non Prince fan doesn't make a lot of sense 2 me.

The man relased 38 years worth of material.

If aren't a fan by now.......why worry about it.

The direction of the Estate at this point has me scratching my head.

his death made a few headlines...there's an entire generation that'll drop some dough on some PURPLE RAIN era bullyang who likely haven't bothered since. the estate needs money, not new old stock of 'prince's legendary pure funk vault material' ten years from now.

and you've got that 38 years worth of material to enjoy while waiting the one or two it might take for the estate to put something together that might suit you...

peedub said:

Graycap23 said:

Catering 2 the non Prince fan doesn't make a lot of sense 2 me.

The man released 38 years worth of material.

If aren't a fan by now.......why worry about it.

The direction of the Estate at this point has me scratching my head.

his death made a few headlines...there's an entire generation that'll drop some dough on some PURPLE RAIN era bullyang who likely haven't bothered since. the estate needs money, not new old stock of 'prince's legendary pure funk vault material' ten years from now.

and you've got that 38 years worth of material to enjoy while waiting the one or two it might take for the estate to put something together that might suit you...

I'm not tripping.

I get it........they will release what they release.

I'm lucky, I have more Prince material than I will probably ever listen 2.

Krid said:

Isn't it funny how in most threads here people lament the Piano & Microphone 83 release, moaning about the estate doing a lousy job... and then the new release gets widespread reviews on- and offline and mostly excellent ratings. Just look at the love this recording and Prince is getting...

Quite clearly, the estate is not looking at the die-hard fans as their audience for this, but on the more casual, "loved him in the 80s" potential buyer.

I do not know the sales figures / effect on catalogue sales, but surely the estate is happy right now!

Discuss !

I haven't heard the P and M in whole, i'm sure it's great just because of Prince but, media tends to be kind to dead stars, MJ got decent reviews on actual crap that wasn't even him singing. That said, people were correct here about the sound on the purple rain release a year ago, did it matter to me? naw, not me, I only bought it for the extras anyway, usually, i'm not a stickler for sound, at least not like the rest fo these assholes here.

ya, he spoiled us. people are entitled in america at least too, recently, doing my food delivery job, it baffles me how people are so self centered and eager to give a thumbs down after I break my neck, break traffic laws, deal with traffic to get them their food and they don't even care. Yesterday I delivered some food, forgot to do the order without bacon on a burger and thought to myself "oh well, if he were living in the third world would that even matter to him?" buncha disgusting brats.

TrivialPursuit said:

My only complaint is it's too short. But, it's a nominal gripe.

I listened to it over the weekend and really enjoyed his exuberance and joy in just playing and singing, working out lyrics or whatever. "Why The Butterflies" is really haunting and moody. It distracted me from working and I had to just stop and listen to it without distraction.

As far as fans negative vs. positive: There is always going to be naysayers. If the Org is anything, it's often a magnification of the shitty segment of people who call themselves Prince fans. They aren't happy unless they're miserable. They are entitled little assholes who think Prince or the estate owes them something to satiate them.

Prince has been dead not even 3 years. The estate has hustled its ass to get PP open as a museum and give tours, set up merchandising and sales (whether merch or the cafe items); it is still cataloging the vault, has released three items in 2.5 years, all of which fans have complained about on some level. They've all turned into Barts. They would have complained about Purple Rain in 2014, and they certainly proved themselves as such in 2017. 4Ever and PAAM were just two more reasons for people to be unhappy, when in fact we could have gotten nothing. No, we shouldn't be thankful for crumbs, but this is more than crumbs. It's varied and interesting releases.

What fans seem to not understand is that these things don't just happen. You don't just say "hey, here's 12 songs, let's put it out tomorrow". It takes time. You stagger releases, you find the best way to do it and market it. I said early on that PAAM is probably going to be a series of things. This 1983 set is not the only one. It's a perfect setup for future releases because we know there are plenty of these types of recordings. As far as the other stuff in the vault, cataloging that and deciding what is feasible as a release and marketable (yes, this is a product for a business, keep your "money and art don't mix" mantras to yourself), and planning the whole process of putting that out.

Prince fans lack gratitude. They think they know what is best to release, but that is solely based on their own selfish desires; not what is a viable and noteworthy product. They estate could just shut down, release tons of anthologies with one new song on a 20 song set and give everyone a big "fuck you". But they haven't. So fans should shut the fuck up, and let things happen. The body is barely cold, and everyone's still trying to pilfer through the house before the cousins show up.

http://prince.org/msg/7/456430

Strive said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

The issue is people entitled beliefs that the estate should be catering to the hardcore fans who already have bootleges and need more to satisfy their addictions.

Nope. I would've been cool with some other bootleg becoming official or getting a collection of unreleased songs I already have with 1-2 new ones like the Vault disc of PRD. P&M83 was just a poor choice by a record label guy that doesn't really know Prince. He heard about this bootleg through the grapevine, searched it out and came up with all sorts of justifications for its release. Genesia said:

Seriously?! That is exactly what makes this special!

Maybe you have to be a creative person, yourself, to be enthralled by the process. But the thing that makes a Prince, or a Tiger Woods, or a Daniel Day-Lewis so amazing is that (unlike the requirement in math class) they never show their work. They come out and make what they do look effortless. But the plain fact is that it's not. There's a whole lot of noodling and repetition and pain and discoveries and trying things out. Sometimes the noodling goes somewhere, sometimes it ends in something great. But it is all worthwhile in the end.

There are limits, of course, to what we want to hear. In Work It, there are tracks and tracks of single drum strikes and stuff like that. Do I need to hear Prince hit a snare drum one time over and over? Probably not. But I will never turn up my nose at listening to a rehearsal (no matter how rough) or something like this. It's gold.

Full disclosure: I say this as I prepare to start rehearsals for my next play. I am sure you would find the rehearsal process intensely boring, but I can't wait to start learning and discovering things about my character and the others in this play. It is process we go through that makes the performances something special.

But Prince didn't want to reveal the mystery. He worked hard so people would think he was naturally that hot. I actually like demos and rehearsals but not as a first release. [Edited 9/24/18 11:14am]

There you go! That was his essence...when the public saw him, he was always "PRINCE". He loved the mystique of his own public perssona; but man, that must of been exhausting. (I have whole weeks where I would like to just show up to life in fuzzy slippers with my hair pulled back & no make-up!!) Our crazy little Yoda- we would have loved him if he played guitar in his bathrobe.

Militant said:

Yeah, I don't quite get the negativity. You don't have to dig it, but you don't have to bitch and whine about it either.

It's a piece of art - a historical document, made to appeal to casual fans, music fans, not just die-hards. The packaging on the deluxe edition is fantastic, as are the liner notes from Jill Jones, Lisa Coleman and Don Batts.

Yes, I want a full length high quality "Cosmic Day" as much as the next die-hard, but I recognise that what I want isn't necessarily the same as what the Estate can sell. There's a middle ground for sure, and they'll get there, but this ain't an easy job.

Seahorsie said:

Strive said:

OldFriends4Sale said: But Prince didn't want to reveal the mystery. He worked hard so people would think he was naturally that hot. I actually like demos and rehearsals but not as a first release. [Edited 9/24/18 11:14am]

There you go! That was his essence...when the public saw him, he was always "PRINCE". He loved the mystique of his own public perssona; but man, that must of been exhausting. (I have whole weeks where I would like to just show up to life in fuzzy slippers with my hair pulled back & no make-up!!) Our crazy little Yoda- we would have loved him if he played guitar in his bathrobe.

I had a chuckle.

maybe not U. but from what I've been reading from some FB groups is a bunch of posts by people who already have it, don't see anything special about it and want something they have never heard before. But a lot of Prince fans do not have these boots. When i first heard it I loved it. I love those intimate moments with Prince on guitar or piano alone.

Strive said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

The issue is people entitled beliefs that the estate should be catering to the hardcore fans who already have bootleges and need more to satisfy their addictions.

Nope. I would've been cool with some other bootleg becoming official or getting a collection of unreleased songs I already have with 1-2 new ones like the Vault disc of PRD. P&M83 was just a poor choice by a record label guy that doesn't really know Prince. He heard about this bootleg through the grapevine, searched it out and came up with all sorts of justifications for its release. Genesia said:

Seriously?! That is exactly what makes this special!

Maybe you have to be a creative person, yourself, to be enthralled by the process. But the thing that makes a Prince, or a Tiger Woods, or a Daniel Day-Lewis so amazing is that (unlike the requirement in math class) they never show their work. They come out and make what they do look effortless. But the plain fact is that it's not. There's a whole lot of noodling and repetition and pain and discoveries and trying things out. Sometimes the noodling goes somewhere, sometimes it ends in something great. But it is all worthwhile in the end.

There are limits, of course, to what we want to hear. In Work It, there are tracks and tracks of single drum strikes and stuff like that. Do I need to hear Prince hit a snare drum one time over and over? Probably not. But I will never turn up my nose at listening to a rehearsal (no matter how rough) or something like this. It's gold.

Full disclosure: I say this as I prepare to start rehearsals for my next play. I am sure you would find the rehearsal process intensely boring, but I can't wait to start learning and discovering things about my character and the others in this play. It is process we go through that makes the performances something special.

But Prince didn't want to reveal the mystery. He worked hard so people would think he was naturally that hot. I actually like demos and rehearsals but not as a first release. [Edited 9/24/18 11:14am]

databank said:

Genesia said:

And...?

Genesia said:

Maybe you have to be a creative person, yourself, to be enthralled by the process. But the thing that makes a Prince, or a Tiger Woods, or a Daniel Day-Lewis so amazing is that (unlike the requirement in math class) they never show their work.

.

DDL is infamous for going to extremes to prepare for his roles and for staying in character while filming. It's in just about every bloody article about him.

I always amazed my that fans of Prince want more songs. There are so many amazing songs released.

People are more about quantity than quality. They listen to one song and say, next! I want something better than that. Next! Next!

BartVanHemelen said:

Genesia said:

Maybe you have to be a creative person, yourself, to be enthralled by the process. But the thing that makes a Prince, or a Tiger Woods, or a Daniel Day-Lewis so amazing is that (unlike the requirement in math class) they never show their work.

.

DDL is infamous for going to extremes to prepare for his roles and for staying in character while filming. It's in just about every bloody article about him.

Yeah...and Tiger Woods and Prince are both well known for their work ethics, too. The point is that they don't open the doors and let you sit there with them while they do it.

You're being a pedant, Bart - even more than usual. You knew what I meant.

I don't share it, but I certainly understand the frustration over this particular release. I've listened to it about a dozen times already, and I love every minute of it. It is short, and I do have the boot, but it didn't matter. It hooked me from the first seconds with Prince asking "Is that my echo?"

Personally, I would love to hear things I haven't heard before but, honestly, with everything I have now, official and boot, I have enough to go back through and re-listen to things and really enjoy them. I'm patient enough to wait for the estate to sort through it all and give us what they want to give us.

As I said, I understand the frustration from people who want to hear things that they haven't heard yet. And when you think about it, it's not like we're definitely going to get annual releases, or even bi-annual releases. It may be every five years, or more. I just saw a Jimi Hendrix release that had "never before heard" music, and he's been gone for almost 50 years. I definitely don't want to be dead myself when the estate finds something really great to release.

This is ultimately Prince's fault, though, for being so prolific and giving us so much while he lived. Just the knowledge of what's possible to come down the line is enough to make you crazy.

[Edited 9/25/18 10:35am]

the only complaint should be ...after u hear it once or twice u'd want the next thing....

nextedition said:

I always amazed my that fans of Prince want more songs. There are so many amazing songs released.

People are more about quantity than quality. They listen to one song and say, next! I want something better than that. Next! Next!

I totally agree!

This may be odd to explain but Prince was part of that 'problem' - if one was to deem this as a problem. It's as though people are suffering withdrawal symptons like an alcoholic.

Since the world went digital and Prince issued his first digital track on Love4oneanother.com in 1997 Prince released so much that it became an expectation from fans.

In Prince's last few years I felt we had new music each week and since 2014 it felt like we were getting new music everyday - particularly if you include snippets from Instagram, YouTube and Facebook.

Sometimes a little respite between releases can be good!

It's sad Prince's music has become so consumable and disposable - and already there are posts about what's next!

Very sad indeed!

I'm grateful to have access to the (free) bootlegs that I have. I'm not entitled to anything else. If they give I will receive

Strive said:

Here's the problem. You have the press which, even org members admit, are basically rewording the press release Warner sent out because it's not hip to pan a dead man. You have a large group of casual listeners who think that they have to thumbs up this work because they've been told this is so special. But the reality is there's nothing special about this release. It's Prince trying to work out songs. He reaches for a solo with 17 Days and doesn't find what he's reaching for. It's glimpses of things that could have been really interesting. It's a good take of Mary Don't You Weap. If you think this is the piece of work that's going to establish Prince as an artist (lol) or this will end up as anything other than an oddity that's quickly forgotten or that he would be cool with this being the first posthumous standalone release, I'm sure the Estate and Warner Bros have a deluxe edition bridge they'd like to sell you. [Edited 9/24/18 10:47am]

The reasons why you describe it isn't special is why I think it is special though! This is a beautiful snapshot of a musician jamming and working things out, which is a really intimate and awesome thing to hear. It isn't supposed to be a fully realized album, and to me that is what makes it all the more awesome. Nobody is saying "this is the piece of work that's going to establish..." or anything, we all simply think it is a cool collection of audio presented in a cool way.

[Edited 9/26/18 2:56am]

PennyPurple said:

The Estate may be able to pull the wool over some new fans eyes, but to us hardcore fans, they aren't pulling the wool over our eyes. We keep our eyes and ears open for that vault material, and they aren't fooling us with this release that is just Prince practicing.

And as a hardcore fan, I am loving this release and it is P in the moment and in his element. This isn't a bad thing