purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said:

Oh, I think there is a huge jump in emotional maturity between not just 16-19, but 16-25. It is said that in every decade of life we go through changes - whether it be maturity, which obviously is prevalent through the teen years and twenties, emotional changes, and of course physical changes. There is a distinct difference between the way a 16-19 yr old behaves and views life as compared to a 31-35 yr old. It's surprising to me that anyone would argue differently. I know how I was thinking and acting at 16 and also at 35, and there are vast differences.

*

The draft age and age of adult consent of 18 was determined by our Government. It in no way means that most 18 yr olds are mentally and/or physically mature enough to go to war. I think we have evidence of this from all of our past wars fought. An 18 yr old moving away from home for the first time is also vastly different than a 30+ yr old who has been established for many years. Two totally different ways of living.

I agree and Maria Montessori says the last phase of childhood I can’t recall the exact name of the stage but It is 19-23 It is a deep mentor period of childhood Not at all when we should be called adults but adults in training.

i don't doubt it, and sadly, many men misuse that shit to get into young girls panties. I've seen a lot of that in my life, sickening. I understand it, young, nubile, naive girls are attractive but personally, i never felt right about those kinds of things, i've been close to what I would consider abusing that but I never did. Most men have no fucking problems with it.

PeteSilas said:

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said: I agree and Maria Montessori says the last phase of childhood I can’t recall the exact name of the stage but It is 19-23 It is a deep mentor period of childhood Not at all when we should be called adults but adults in training.

i don't doubt it, and sadly, many men misuse that shit to get into young girls panties. I've seen a lot of that in my life, sickening. I understand it, young, nubile, naive girls are attractive but personally, i never felt right about those kinds of things, i've been close to what I would consider abusing that but I never did. Most men have no fucking problems with it.

It must be difficult for some men to resist when given the opportunity, but it is the right thing to do. The are not ready for an older man as there is a power imbalance as well. I personally had the experience, I was 20.

peggyon said:

PeteSilas said:

i don't doubt it, and sadly, many men misuse that shit to get into young girls panties. I've seen a lot of that in my life, sickening. I understand it, young, nubile, naive girls are attractive but personally, i never felt right about those kinds of things, i've been close to what I would consider abusing that but I never did. Most men have no fucking problems with it.

It must be difficult for some men to resist when given the opportunity, but it is the right thing to do. The are not ready for an older man as there is a power imbalance as well. I personally had the experience, I was 20.

I agree. For Prince, it would seem that his need for full control, attraction to younger women, and the fact that he always seemed to have a "younger thinking" mentality factored into his pursuit of them. I think many men would have a hard time resisting that temptation, but most don't get the opportunity. Prince had that opportunity on a daily basis.

jdcxc said:

Brilliant, psychological lyrics. Was she having an affair with another woman? Also, loved his work with Ani Difranco. Prince really championed independent, creative women artists.

Good point - I never looked at the lyrics that way. I always interpreted the lyric "that wasn't your dress that you had on, that wasn't your perfume" to mean that another guy had given those things to her, or that she was wearing a dress and perfume that she never wore with him.

*

Love Ani Difranco and also Lianne La Havas! Both very smart and talented women. He definitely knew good talent. Providence is a beautiful song. Her lyrics are so smart and engaging.

violetcrush said:

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said:

I agree. For Prince, it would seem that his need for full control, attraction to younger women, and the fact that he always seemed to have a "younger thinking" mentality factored into his pursuit of them. I think many men would have a hard time resisting that temptation, but most don't get the opportunity. Prince had that opportunity on a daily basis.

Yes daily. I always thought the 3rdeye makeup was intentional. Ida older, he wasnt into that, Hanna and Donna married. His attempt maybe at less distracting options

Also, could be by that point he was done with the young protege thing. Although, he did have Judith Hill in the mix, but I don't know if it's been confirmed that they were romantically involved.

violetcrush said:

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said:

Also, could be by that point he was done with the young protege thing. Although, he did have Judith Hill in the mix, but I don't know if it's been confirmed that they were romantically involved.

Done with protégés maybe young ones never. I feel he was wise musically But in relationships he never left jr high with all of its Romance novel whimsy.

True. Here's what he said in his last RS interview, done in Jan of 2014:

*

"That night, Prince doesn’t look his age – doesn’t look any particular age, really. He’s very thin, but not fragile – a strict vegan who, by his own account, sometimes doesn’t eat at all (“I have gone long periods with no food, and also water – people have to remind me to drink water because I always forget to do that”). He doesn’t sleep enough, either, and he avoids sex: One of the most deliriously sensual performers who ever lived – the one who sang “Jack U Off” and “Gett Off” and “Do Me, Baby” – insists he’s celibate. His reasons are both religious and “energy”-related (“The hunger turns into something else,” he says), though he maintains close relationships with several young female singer-songwriters. He is, at this stage in his life, a kind of cheerful musical monk. “I am music,” he says. Playing it is his greatest and perhaps only pleasure. But he’s been an ascetic even on that front as of late, recording less than ever, waiting four years between albums. It’ll stand as the longest break of his career."

*

Then further into the interview there came this:

*

"At one point, the phone rings: It’s the young British singer-songwriter Delilah. Prince’s voice suddenly gets even deeper. “I know it’s late there,” he purrs into the handset. “I’m going to will you awake.” On a possibly related note, Prince says he’s unsure if he’ll marry again. “That’s another thing that’s up to God,” he says. “It’s all magnetism anyway – something would pull me into its gravity, and I wouldn’t be able to get out from it.” "

*

So, you never really knew with Prince, but I would say yes, his attraction to, or at least flirtation with, younger women never stopped.

violetcrush said:

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said: Done with protégés maybe young ones never. I feel he was wise musically But in relationships he never left jr high with all of its Romance novel whimsy.

True. Here's what he said in his last RS interview, done in Jan of 2014:

*

"That night, Prince doesn’t look his age – doesn’t look any particular age, really. He’s very thin, but not fragile – a strict vegan who, by his own account, sometimes doesn’t eat at all (“I have gone long periods with no food, and also water – people have to remind me to drink water because I always forget to do that”). He doesn’t sleep enough, either, and he avoids sex: One of the most deliriously sensual performers who ever lived – the one who sang “Jack U Off” and “Gett Off” and “Do Me, Baby” – insists he’s celibate. His reasons are both religious and “energy”-related (“The hunger turns into something else,” he says), though he maintains close relationships with several young female singer-songwriters. He is, at this stage in his life, a kind of cheerful musical monk. “I am music,” he says. Playing it is his greatest and perhaps only pleasure. But he’s been an ascetic even on that front as of late, recording less than ever, waiting four years between albums. It’ll stand as the longest break of his career."

*

Then further into the interview there came this:

*

"At one point, the phone rings: It’s the young British singer-songwriter Delilah. Prince’s voice suddenly gets even deeper. “I know it’s late there,” he purrs into the handset. “I’m going to will you awake.” On a possibly related note, Prince says he’s unsure if he’ll marry again. “That’s another thing that’s up to God,” he says. “It’s all magnetism anyway – something would pull me into its gravity, and I wouldn’t be able to get out from it.” "

*

So, you never really knew with Prince, but I would say yes, his attraction to, or at least flirtation with, younger women never stopped.

nope never stopped.

what do you think the "hunger" turned into. i know that when people eat very little it can make the brain sharper, it can also have euphoric effects i have read. i wonder. the water thing is ridiculous

that is essential to function more than food. long periods without water sounds crazy. yep you never

knew.

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said:

True. Here's what he said in his last RS interview, done in Jan of 2014:

*

"That night, Prince doesn’t look his age – doesn’t look any particular age, really. He’s very thin, but not fragile – a strict vegan who, by his own account, sometimes doesn’t eat at all (“I have gone long periods with no food, and also water – people have to remind me to drink water because I always forget to do that”). He doesn’t sleep enough, either, and he avoids sex: One of the most deliriously sensual performers who ever lived – the one who sang “Jack U Off” and “Gett Off” and “Do Me, Baby” – insists he’s celibate. His reasons are both religious and “energy”-related (“The hunger turns into something else,” he says), though he maintains close relationships with several young female singer-songwriters. He is, at this stage in his life, a kind of cheerful musical monk. “I am music,” he says. Playing it is his greatest and perhaps only pleasure. But he’s been an ascetic even on that front as of late, recording less than ever, waiting four years between albums. It’ll stand as the longest break of his career."

*

Then further into the interview there came this:

*

"At one point, the phone rings: It’s the young British singer-songwriter Delilah. Prince’s voice suddenly gets even deeper. “I know it’s late there,” he purrs into the handset. “I’m going to will you awake.” On a possibly related note, Prince says he’s unsure if he’ll marry again. “That’s another thing that’s up to God,” he says. “It’s all magnetism anyway – something would pull me into its gravity, and I wouldn’t be able to get out from it.” "

*

So, you never really knew with Prince, but I would say yes, his attraction to, or at least flirtation with, younger women never stopped.

nope never stopped.

what do you think the "hunger" turned into. i know that when people eat very little it can make the brain sharper, it can also have euphoric effects i have read. i wonder. the water thing is ridiculous

that is essential to function more than food. long periods without water sounds crazy. yep you never

knew.

Seems that throughout his life he had a small appetite, and you rarely saw him take a drink of water during his very long shows - although he may have done that during his breaks off stage. My thought is that the pain meds were taking over by that point. Loss of appetite is definitely a side effect of any type of drug addiction.

*

When he talks about the "hunger turning into something else" it may be referring to the sexual stuff taking a darker turn?? The song Pheromone would be an example of that.

[Edited 9/17/18 11:11am]

violetcrush said:

purplefam99 said:

nope never stopped.

what do you think the "hunger" turned into. i know that when people eat very little it can make the brain sharper, it can also have euphoric effects i have read. i wonder. the water thing is ridiculous

that is essential to function more than food. long periods without water sounds crazy. yep you never

knew.

Seems that throughout his life he had a small appetite, and you rarely saw him take a drink of water during his very long shows - although he may have done that during his breaks off stage. My thought is that the pain meds were taking over by that point. Loss of appetite is definitely a side effect of any type of drug addiction.

*

When he talks about the "hunger turning into something else" it may be referring to the sexual stuff taking a darker turn?? The song Pheromone would be an example of that.

[Edited 9/17/18 11:11am]

I think he was referring to the hunger turning in something spiritual

peggyon said:

violetcrush said:

Seems that throughout his life he had a small appetite, and you rarely saw him take a drink of water during his very long shows - although he may have done that during his breaks off stage. My thought is that the pain meds were taking over by that point. Loss of appetite is definitely a side effect of any type of drug addiction.

*

When he talks about the "hunger turning into something else" it may be referring to the sexual stuff taking a darker turn?? The song Pheromone would be an example of that.

[Edited 9/17/18 11:11am]

I think he was referring to the hunger turning in something spiritual

Could be. Hard to know for sure. I would imagine at that time all of his energy was going toward any performnig and rehearsing he was doing. If the pain meds were increasing I think he would have been sleeping a lot more too.

kinda sad, he sounds like he's trying to come off as an ascetic in the later years when it was most likely his appetites were being consumed by whatever illness/Pills he had in his body. The water things always surprises me, as a singer, I always sing best when i'm overhydrated, when you are dehydrated it changes your voice. Lots of boxers are familiar with this when they "dry out" to make weight. They say you can go 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food and 3 minutes without air but I don't think any of those are really hard facts. I watched a docu on WW2 where a guy said he went 6-7 days on a death march in japan without water and said "they say you can't do that but I did it".

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said:

True. Here's what he said in his last RS interview, done in Jan of 2014:

*

"That night, Prince doesn’t look his age – doesn’t look any particular age, really. He’s very thin, but not fragile – a strict vegan who, by his own account, sometimes doesn’t eat at all (“I have gone long periods with no food, and also water – people have to remind me to drink water because I always forget to do that”). He doesn’t sleep enough, either, and he avoids sex: One of the most deliriously sensual performers who ever lived – the one who sang “Jack U Off” and “Gett Off” and “Do Me, Baby” – insists he’s celibate. His reasons are both religious and “energy”-related (“The hunger turns into something else,” he says), though he maintains close relationships with several young female singer-songwriters. He is, at this stage in his life, a kind of cheerful musical monk. “I am music,” he says. Playing it is his greatest and perhaps only pleasure. But he’s been an ascetic even on that front as of late, recording less than ever, waiting four years between albums. It’ll stand as the longest break of his career."

*

Then further into the interview there came this:

*

"At one point, the phone rings: It’s the young British singer-songwriter Delilah. Prince’s voice suddenly gets even deeper. “I know it’s late there,” he purrs into the handset. “I’m going to will you awake.” On a possibly related note, Prince says he’s unsure if he’ll marry again. “That’s another thing that’s up to God,” he says. “It’s all magnetism anyway – something would pull me into its gravity, and I wouldn’t be able to get out from it.” "

*

So, you never really knew with Prince, but I would say yes, his attraction to, or at least flirtation with, younger women never stopped.

nope never stopped.

what do you think the "hunger" turned into. i know that when people eat very little it can make the brain sharper, it can also have euphoric effects i have read. i wonder. the water thing is ridiculous

that is essential to function more than food. long periods without water sounds crazy. yep you never

knew.

PeteSilas said:

kinda sad, he sounds like he's trying to come off as an ascetic in the later years when it was most likely his appetites were being consumed by whatever illness/Pills he had in his body. The water things always surprises me, as a singer, I always sing best when i'm overhydrated, when you are dehydrated it changes your voice. Lots of boxers are familiar with this when they "dry out" to make weight. They say you can go 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food and 3 minutes without air but I don't think any of those are really hard facts. I watched a docu on WW2 where a guy said he went 6-7 days on a death march in japan without water and said "they say you can't do that but I did it".

It was kinda sad.

I would just like to say thank you to everyone who has replied and started a conversation

LaurenceNoonan said:

I would just like to say thank you to everyone who has replied and started a conversation

You are welcome!! And boy, there has been conversation

I have to say though, that he was still creating music.

violetcrush said:

peggyon said:

I have to say though, that he was still creating music.

Yes, he certainly was - and very good music too. I really like the rock infused music he was doing with 3EG. Those girls are super talented. Also, I actuallly cannot believe, knowing what we know now about how ill he was, the intensity and greatness of his last two P%M performances in Atlanta. Just beyond amazing. He clearly lived for the music as he always said.

PeteSilas said:

it's still a sad story to me, it's not all her fault, the way men treat women is often vile, and i think she got an early dose of that from whoever it was who molested her when she was young.

AnnaStesia10 said:

PeteSilas said:

nothing i have ever seen from her made me think "Strong person, leadership potential" in fact, just the opposite, her interviews she was ditzy, even the later ones where I couldn't even recognize her, when she became a christian. It was actually sad to see when I saw her interviews 11 years ago, how much life, time, drugs had robbed her of her beauty, I honestly couldn't recognize her.

Hey Pete I wanted to respond to your impression of Vanity. I do hear what u are saying about her. Imo I feel there are parts of her we werent seeing there were alot of strong personalities back in the early Prince camp and I feel Vanity back then could hold her own, was unique and was a leader. But back then in the early Prince days in the early 80s I am sure it was tough to deal with Prince in that there could only be 1 leader, hence fights and disagreements. Drugs and excesses in life can dim the light and change the course of someones life so I totally do see how the years of drug abuse and maybe other things dimed Vanitys light. She made bad choices when it came to substances but leaders can go down that road if it gets out if hand. It is sad to see some interviews when she seems high but I have no doubt she was a highly intelligent, gifted person who got stuck and dabbled in things that almost killed her. Denise's story is so powerful to me, because she decided to walk away from "Hollywood" and fame and the whole Vanity persona to find her true self and serve God. She relied on her faith and became a powerful, strong speaker. To me that takes extreme courage and she did remain a leader till the day she died. The world is less bright without Denise as well.

RJP1205 said:

I agree...last 4 albums are great!

They really are, both Hit 'n' Run albums are great, the second one feeling more like a Prince album and Art Official Age is also a great album and so are parts of the 3RD EYE GIRL album.

PeteSilas said:

it's still a sad story to me, it's not all her fault, the way men treat women is often vile, and i think she got an early dose of that from whoever it was who molested her when she was young.

AnnaStesia10 said:

PeteSilas said: Hey Pete I wanted to respond to your impression of Vanity. I do hear what u are saying about her. Imo I feel there are parts of her we werent seeing there were alot of strong personalities back in the early Prince camp and I feel Vanity back then could hold her own, was unique and was a leader. But back then in the early Prince days in the early 80s I am sure it was tough to deal with Prince in that there could only be 1 leader, hence fights and disagreements. Drugs and excesses in life can dim the light and change the course of someones life so I totally do see how the years of drug abuse and maybe other things dimed Vanitys light. She made bad choices when it came to substances but leaders can go down that road if it gets out if hand. It is sad to see some interviews when she seems high but I have no doubt she was a highly intelligent, gifted person who got stuck and dabbled in things that almost killed her. Denise's story is so powerful to me, because she decided to walk away from "Hollywood" and fame and the whole Vanity persona to find her true self and serve God. She relied on her faith and became a powerful, strong speaker. To me that takes extreme courage and she did remain a leader till the day she died. The world is less bright without Denise as well.

Right, Pete. In discussing Vanity here I got to thinking about her early life, and how that may have affected her choices and career, as well as, the time period and culture with regard to how women were treated back then. She had stated that her Father was both physically and sexually abusive toward her. I can see how this would lead to feelings of low self worth and other emotional issues. I'm sure she also knew from a very young age how attractive she was.

*

Early on in her career she had done some nude scenes in films along with modeling. Then moved on to embody the Vanity persona, which was based on sexuality and sexual explicitness. In watching many of her television interviews both with male and femaile hosts, but especially with male hosts, she was very objectified, and the questions/discussion always focused on her clothes, sexuality, and of course personal questions about her relationship with Prince. It seems she was never taken seriously there. She handled herself very well, and played along. She also of course defended the Vanity persona because that was her professional identity.

*

If you look at the TV, film, and even music industry in the 70's and 80's - women, with the exception of a few who were very talented and broke free of the sexual objectification, had to deal with projecting a pretty and/or sexual image on stage or screen. If you were not considered one of the "elite" female actors you had to be very attractive, and were given roles that exploited that. In most of the comedies or dramas of that time there were always beautiful women with their clothes off (Private School, whch actually used the song Nasty Girl, Welcome To America, Fast Times At Ridgemont High, and on and on), so they often were typecast for those roles. Even Purple Rain was criticized for objectifying women and for some of the misogynistic scenes.

*

So, if you take someone like Vanity, although strong willed with a tough exterior, but who has already suffered early sexual abuse and is emotionally scarred from that, and then has to live her life as a sexual figure both on the stage and screen, I can see how that could cause a spiral downward and feelings of low self worth. I can also see how the drugs would become an escape from those feelings. I imagine it is very difficult when you want to be taken seriously, but are only seen as a sex object - the "Marilyn Monroe" saga. I think if she had been able to play the Mary Magdelene role that she was offered in the Martin Scorsese film in '84 and had positive reviews, things may have been different for her with her career.

[Edited 9/19/18 11:47am]

Unfortunately, we need to add Prince to the mix. He insisted she wear porno-inspired lingerie, dance seductivley, sing lewd lyrics. I am her age and this expectation was not the norm. "Women's lib" and consciousness-raising groups were in full force. The term Male Chauvinist Pig was coined during this time as well and used frequently.

My thoughts are that Prince was part of a non-college-educated sector and was likely influenced by what he saw at Andre's home while living there, ie., the Pimp Culture. I believe one of Andre's brother was a pimp and I have read that this influenced him. Women were treated with less respect, mind-controlled and more objectified. The middle class college-educated folks were not in favor of this behavior, though it may have appealed to some young men's baser instincts.

I was not a fan of Purple Rain or Vanity 6 for this reason. I became a fan somewhat later after this phenomenon passed. I thought it was weird.

I agree with you about Hollywood taking a long time to lessen the objectification of women.

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

it's still a sad story to me, it's not all her fault, the way men treat women is often vile, and i think she got an early dose of that from whoever it was who molested her when she was young.

Right, Pete. In discussing Vanity here I got to thinking about her early life, and how that may have affected her choices and career, as well as, the time period and culture with regard to how women were treated back then. She had stated that her Father was both physically and sexually abusive toward her. I can see how this would lead to feelings of low self worth and other emotional issues. I'm sure she also knew from a very young age how attractive she was.

*

Early on in her career she had done some nude scenes in films along with modeling. Then moved on to embody the Vanity persona, which was based on sexuality and sexual explicitness. In watching many of her television interviews both with male and femaile hosts, but especially with male hosts, she was very objectified, and the questions/discussion always focused on her clothes, sexuality, and of course personal questions about her relationship with Prince. It seems she was never taken seriously there. She handled herself very well, and played along. She also of course defended the Vanity persona because that was her professional identity.

*

If you look at the TV, film, and even music industry in the 70's and 80's - women, with the exception of a few who were very talented and broke free of the sexual objectification, had to deal with projecting a pretty and/or sexual image on stage or screen. If you were not considered one of the "elite" female actors you had to be very attractive, and were given roles that exploited that. In most of the comedies or dramas of that time there were always beautiful women with their clothes off (Private School, whch actually used the song Nasty Girl, Welcome To America, Fast Times At Ridgemont High, and on and on), so they often were typecast for those roles. Even Purple Rain was criticized for objectifying women and for some of the misogynistic scenes.

*

So, if you take someone like Vanity, although strong willed with a tough exterior, but who has already suffered early sexual abuse and is emotionally scarred from that, and then has to live her life as a sexual figure both on the stage and screen, I can see how that could cause a spiral downward and feelings of low self worth. I can also see how the drugs would become an escape from those feelings. I imagine it is very difficult when you want to be taken seriously, but are only seen as a sex object - the "Marilyn Monroe" saga. I think if she had been able to play the Mary Magdelene role that she was offered in the Martin Scorsese film in '84 and had positive reviews, things may have been different for her with her career.

[Edited 9/19/18 11:47am]

[Edited 9/19/18 12:49pm]

peggyon said:

Unfortunately, we need to add Prince to the mix. He insisted she wear porno-inspired lingerie, dance seductivley, sing lewd lyrics. I am her age and this expectation was not the norm. "Women's lib" and consciousness-raising groups were in full force. The term Male Chauvinist Pig was coined during this time as well and used frequently.

My thoughts are that Prince was part of a non-college-educated sector and was likely influenced by what he saw at Andre's home while living there, ie., the Pimp Culture. I believe one of Andre's brother was a pimp and I have read that this influenced him. Women were treated with less respect, mind-controlled and more objectified. The middle class college-educated folks were not in favor of this behavior, though it may have appealed to some young men's baser instincts.

I was not a fan of Purple Rain or Vanity 6 for this reason. I became a fan somewhat later after this phenomenon passed.

violetcrush said:

Right, Pete. In discussing Vanity here I got to thinking about her early life, and how that may have affected her choices and career, as well as, the time period and culture with regard to how women were treated back then. She had stated that her Father was both physically and sexually abusive toward her. I can see how this would lead to feelings of low self worth and other emotional issues. I'm sure she also knew from a very young age how attractive she was.

*

Early on in her career she had done some nude scenes in films along with modeling. Then moved on to embody the Vanity persona, which was based on sexuality and sexual explicitness. In watching many of her television interviews both with male and femaile hosts, but especially with male hosts, she was very objectified, and the questions/discussion always focused on her clothes, sexuality, and of course personal questions about her relationship with Prince. It seems she was never taken seriously there. She handled herself very well, and played along. She also of course defended the Vanity persona because that was her professional identity.

*

If you look at the TV, film, and even music industry in the 70's and 80's - women, with the exception of a few who were very talented and broke free of the sexual objectification, had to deal with projecting a pretty and/or sexual image on stage or screen. If you were not considered one of the "elite" female actors you had to be very attractive, and were given roles that exploited that. In most of the comedies or dramas of that time there were always beautiful women with their clothes off (Private School, whch actually used the song Nasty Girl, Welcome To America, Fast Times At Ridgemont High, and on and on), so they often were typecast for those roles. Even Purple Rain was criticized for objectifying women and for some of the misogynistic scenes.

*

So, if you take someone like Vanity, although strong willed with a tough exterior, but who has already suffered early sexual abuse and is emotionally scarred from that, and then has to live her life as a sexual figure both on the stage and screen, I can see how that could cause a spiral downward and feelings of low self worth. I can also see how the drugs would become an escape from those feelings. I imagine it is very difficult when you want to be taken seriously, but are only seen as a sex object - the "Marilyn Monroe" saga. I think if she had been able to play the Mary Magdelene role that she was offered in the Martin Scorsese film in '84 and had positive reviews, things may have been different for her with her career.

[Edited 9/19/18 11:47am]

Yes, I had mentioned her moving on to become Vanity, which we now know was Pince's creation, and he had the control in terms of the songs and outfits. Then she was sort of "stuck" with that persona after she left the camp.

*

I agree that the women's lib movement was in full force, but they had a long road ahead. The more highly educated people supported the movement, but middle America was not on board, and neither was Hollywood or the corporate world. Films like 9 to 5, Norma Rae, and Working Girl helped a bit. Things gradually got better, but it took decades. In the 90's my annual salary was about 5K less than my male co-worker, and we were doing the same job.

*

No doubt that Prince was exposed to, and influenced by the "pimp" or misogynistic culture around him when he was growing up. He's told the story of going to see James Brown perform when he was 5 yrs old, and being mesmerized by the "dancing girls" and their "apples and oranges" on stage with him. He would also sneak in to his Father's burlesque show to watch him and the women. His idea for Vanity 6 and the scenes in PR depict a lot of this early exposure.

[Edited 9/19/18 13:02pm]

I've known women like her, meaning beautiful but scarred, which it doesn't take a psychologist to figure out, some men would see that and try to use and abuse that person for all they could, I'm no angel but that just makes me sick. It's something everyone has to deal with in some capacity, someone like Prince or a talented athlete have to go through all the same struggles minus (some of the time at least) the sexual objectification. the head games, the power games, the pimp/whore dynamic is the same. Personally, it's why I never took much part in this society, being tribal, I just see it all so fake. Maybe someday we'll figure it all out but until then, I think I'll stay broke and have my soul. I feel sorry for the rest of the chumps out there who feel they have to put everything they have on the chopping block to make a buck.

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

it's still a sad story to me, it's not all her fault, the way men treat women is often vile, and i think she got an early dose of that from whoever it was who molested her when she was young.

Right, Pete. In discussing Vanity here I got to thinking about her early life, and how that may have affected her choices and career, as well as, the time period and culture with regard to how women were treated back then. She had stated that her Father was both physically and sexually abusive toward her. I can see how this would lead to feelings of low self worth and other emotional issues. I'm sure she also knew from a very young age how attractive she was.

*

Early on in her career she had done some nude scenes in films along with modeling. Then moved on to embody the Vanity persona, which was based on sexuality and sexual explicitness. In watching many of her television interviews both with male and femaile hosts, but especially with male hosts, she was very objectified, and the questions/discussion always focused on her clothes, sexuality, and of course personal questions about her relationship with Prince. It seems she was never taken seriously there. She handled herself very well, and played along. She also of course defended the Vanity persona because that was her professional identity.

*

If you look at the TV, film, and even music industry in the 70's and 80's - women, with the exception of a few who were very talented and broke free of the sexual objectification, had to deal with projecting a pretty and/or sexual image on stage or screen. If you were not considered one of the "elite" female actors you had to be very attractive, and were given roles that exploited that. In most of the comedies or dramas of that time there were always beautiful women with their clothes off (Private School, whch actually used the song Nasty Girl, Welcome To America, Fast Times At Ridgemont High, and on and on), so they often were typecast for those roles. Even Purple Rain was criticized for objectifying women and for some of the misogynistic scenes.

*

So, if you take someone like Vanity, although strong willed with a tough exterior, but who has already suffered early sexual abuse and is emotionally scarred from that, and then has to live her life as a sexual figure both on the stage and screen, I can see how that could cause a spiral downward and feelings of low self worth. I can also see how the drugs would become an escape from those feelings. I imagine it is very difficult when you want to be taken seriously, but are only seen as a sex object - the "Marilyn Monroe" saga. I think if she had been able to play the Mary Magdelene role that she was offered in the Martin Scorsese film in '84 and had positive reviews, things may have been different for her with her career.

[Edited 9/19/18 11:47am]

PeteSilas said:

I've known women like her, meaning beautiful but scarred, which it doesn't take a psychologist to figure out, some men would see that and try to use and abuse that person for all they could, I'm no angel but that just makes me sick. It's something everyone has to deal with in some capacity, someone like Prince or a talented athlete have to go through all the same struggles minus (some of the time at least) the sexual objectification. the head games, the power games, the pimp/whore dynamic is the same. Personally, it's why I never took much part in this society, being tribal, I just see it all so fake. Maybe someday we'll figure it all out but until then, I think I'll stay broke and have my soul. I feel sorry for the rest of the chumps out there who feel they have to put everything they have on the chopping block to make a buck.

violetcrush said:

Right, Pete. In discussing Vanity here I got to thinking about her early life, and how that may have affected her choices and career, as well as, the time period and culture with regard to how women were treated back then. She had stated that her Father was both physically and sexually abusive toward her. I can see how this would lead to feelings of low self worth and other emotional issues. I'm sure she also knew from a very young age how attractive she was.

*

Early on in her career she had done some nude scenes in films along with modeling. Then moved on to embody the Vanity persona, which was based on sexuality and sexual explicitness. In watching many of her television interviews both with male and femaile hosts, but especially with male hosts, she was very objectified, and the questions/discussion always focused on her clothes, sexuality, and of course personal questions about her relationship with Prince. It seems she was never taken seriously there. She handled herself very well, and played along. She also of course defended the Vanity persona because that was her professional identity.

*

If you look at the TV, film, and even music industry in the 70's and 80's - women, with the exception of a few who were very talented and broke free of the sexual objectification, had to deal with projecting a pretty and/or sexual image on stage or screen. If you were not considered one of the "elite" female actors you had to be very attractive, and were given roles that exploited that. In most of the comedies or dramas of that time there were always beautiful women with their clothes off (Private School, whch actually used the song Nasty Girl, Welcome To America, Fast Times At Ridgemont High, and on and on), so they often were typecast for those roles. Even Purple Rain was criticized for objectifying women and for some of the misogynistic scenes.

*

So, if you take someone like Vanity, although strong willed with a tough exterior, but who has already suffered early sexual abuse and is emotionally scarred from that, and then has to live her life as a sexual figure both on the stage and screen, I can see how that could cause a spiral downward and feelings of low self worth. I can also see how the drugs would become an escape from those feelings. I imagine it is very difficult when you want to be taken seriously, but are only seen as a sex object - the "Marilyn Monroe" saga. I think if she had been able to play the Mary Magdelene role that she was offered in the Martin Scorsese film in '84 and had positive reviews, things may have been different for her with her career.

[Edited 9/19/18 11:47am]

The desire for celebrity and fame at any cost can take its toll for sure. Even Prince went through the highs (80's) and the lows (90's) of the business, but he obviously fared better than Vanity. Then he left us too early, presumably due to a pain med addiction caused by physical pain from years of performing

Sananda M. mentioned he had the same obsessive drive and indicated it was because he was the "Illigitimate" child of a religious mother who had an affair with a married man. She prioitized Jesus

over him and of course he could not compete.

He said his drive was a direct result of maternal rejection. Prince? Vanity? Madonna? (mother died early) MJ's father was abusive etc. Bruce had a depressed/rejecting dad.

I read somewhere, there are no accidental stars.

[Edited 9/19/18 18:47pm]

[Edited 9/19/18 18:49pm]