NorthC said:

I still remember that sequence Interactive-Days of Wild-Now-Acknowledge Me-Most Beautiful...that was played on the radio and came out on bootleg in 94. That would have been a fantastic first half of an album.

Aah, the infamous 1994 promo tapes. Those were such a nice gift for us fans, builing the hype towards 's mysterious and innovative "new" sound. I tripped so much on them back then

4DF released an as-pristine-as-possible sounding version of th studio promo tape. You oughta shoulda look for it if you don't have it

databank said:

NorthC said:

I still remember that sequence Interactive-Days of Wild-Now-Acknowledge Me-Most Beautiful...that was played on the radio and came out on bootleg in 94. That would have been a fantastic first half of an album.

Aah, the infamous 1994 promo tapes. Those were such a nice gift for us fans, builing the hype towards 's mysterious and innovative "new" sound. I tripped so much on them back then

4DF released an as-pristine-as-possible sounding version of th studio promo tape. You oughta shoulda look for it if you don't have it

^ Listening to it again, I realise Interactive didn't have the NPG Operator intro there, only the interruption

databank said:

KAB said:

'Objectively' a strong strack, say again???

Everything is subjective.

While I agree that it is extremely hard to define how to objectively assess the quality of a work of art I do not adhere to that relativist view of existence that claims that nothing is anything. No, everything is something and objectively, for example, Fight Club is a better movie than Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. No matter how you wanna put it, you will find it difficult to defend the opposite opinion (but you're welcome to try if only for a laugh).

.

P. Control is, if nothing else, a pretty original song in thge context of 1995: with its high pitched chorus, its epic synthesizer riff and Prince's half-sang half-rapped lead vocals, it is a track that stands out among its contemporaries. I've read on the org in the past some people saying that it was Prince trying to emulate hip-hop, when nothing could be farther from the truth (I guess those people didn't listen to much hip-hop to believe such a thing): this is Prince incorporating hip-hop in his own musical fantasyland in quite a colorful way, without trying to emulate anything. It's definitely funky (I know "funky" is hard to define with words but the bottom line is that P. Control is very likely to make you groove if you're into funk or any kind of Black music). As for being a strong opener, the introduction of the song, with the keyboard riff's hypnotic qualities and the way the groove and rap set themselves, makes it an obvious album opener. Because of its epic/operatic qualities, it fits pretty well into TGE, a record that is mostly made of powerful, energetic tracks and that is too filled with synthesizer for a drum beat to be an issue, even if many a track has real live drums. TGE makes it sound like the term "power rock" had been invented for this particular album

.

As for Endorphinmachine, honestly the only reason most fans prefer the original is because they're McCartney/Springsteen/Dylan rock fans who like bare-bone sounds better (same with Gold, and when I read that some prefer the Gold demo, I'm actually surprised no one has yet claimed that the acoustic demo of Kiss is better than the original ). Both versions of Endorphinmachine work, but the released version works better in the context of TGE: it's more of a sonic wall, more agressive, more powerful and, as such, more in tune with the overall tone of the record. TGE is not Glam Slam Ulysses: had GSU been turned into a record in 1993, then the original recording of Endorphinmachine would have been perfect in that context, but it would have sounded really weak in the context of TGE.

.

Nevertheless, Interactive had many qualities and also made for a great opener. I remember being quite mortified when I learned that it had been moved from the tracklist. To be honest, I would be at a loss if I had to choose between the originally planned 1994 tracklist (with DOW, Interactive, Acknowledge Me and Ripop) and the final release (with P. Control, Endorphinmachine, Shhh!, We March and Dolphin). Both make for a remarkable Prince record. I only wish Prince had been able to put all those tracks on a single, 80 minutes-long CD.

I meant everything arty can only be judged subjectively. Not sure with the everything is something line; clearly the songs exist but the opinions regarding their merits will always be subjective no matter how many people agree or not.

Killer Tomatoes vs Fight Club has no bearing on P Control vs Endorphinmachine as an opening song! Pretty sure there isn't a poll on it to determine which would be a better opening song.

We have no idea why most fans prefer which version of Endorphinmachine, again there is no list of the reasons. Me, personally I prefer the less-produced original version which is similar to Dolphin (which remained on the album in its original form). Shy is another track which is pretty basic that fits still (I prefer the album version).

For me Endorphinmachine, Come and Zannalee were prefect as they were and didn't need the additional effects. Again my opinion.

Interactive is a great opener and obviousy fits in with the operator segues.

Anyways

[Edited 9/5/18 2:26am]

KAB said:

databank said:

While I agree that it is extremely hard to define how to objectively assess the quality of a work of art I do not adhere to that relativist view of existence that claims that nothing is anything. No, everything is something and objectively, for example, Fight Club is a better movie than Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. No matter how you wanna put it, you will find it difficult to defend the opposite opinion (but you're welcome to try if only for a laugh).

.

P. Control is, if nothing else, a pretty original song in thge context of 1995: with its high pitched chorus, its epic synthesizer riff and Prince's half-sang half-rapped lead vocals, it is a track that stands out among its contemporaries. I've read on the org in the past some people saying that it was Prince trying to emulate hip-hop, when nothing could be farther from the truth (I guess those people didn't listen to much hip-hop to believe such a thing): this is Prince incorporating hip-hop in his own musical fantasyland in quite a colorful way, without trying to emulate anything. It's definitely funky (I know "funky" is hard to define with words but the bottom line is that P. Control is very likely to make you groove if you're into funk or any kind of Black music). As for being a strong opener, the introduction of the song, with the keyboard riff's hypnotic qualities and the way the groove and rap set themselves, makes it an obvious album opener. Because of its epic/operatic qualities, it fits pretty well into TGE, a record that is mostly made of powerful, energetic tracks and that is too filled with synthesizer for a drum beat to be an issue, even if many a track has real live drums. TGE makes it sound like the term "power rock" had been invented for this particular album

.

As for Endorphinmachine, honestly the only reason most fans prefer the original is because they're McCartney/Springsteen/Dylan rock fans who like bare-bone sounds better (same with Gold, and when I read that some prefer the Gold demo, I'm actually surprised no one has yet claimed that the acoustic demo of Kiss is better than the original ). Both versions of Endorphinmachine work, but the released version works better in the context of TGE: it's more of a sonic wall, more agressive, more powerful and, as such, more in tune with the overall tone of the record. TGE is not Glam Slam Ulysses: had GSU been turned into a record in 1993, then the original recording of Endorphinmachine would have been perfect in that context, but it would have sounded really weak in the context of TGE.

.

Nevertheless, Interactive had many qualities and also made for a great opener. I remember being quite mortified when I learned that it had been moved from the tracklist. To be honest, I would be at a loss if I had to choose between the originally planned 1994 tracklist (with DOW, Interactive, Acknowledge Me and Ripop) and the final release (with P. Control, Endorphinmachine, Shhh!, We March and Dolphin). Both make for a remarkable Prince record. I only wish Prince had been able to put all those tracks on a single, 80 minutes-long CD.

I meant everything arty can only be judged subjectively. Not sure with the everything is something line; clearly the songs exist but the opinions regarding their merits will always be subjective no matter how many people agree or not.

Killer Tomatoes vs Fight Club has no bearing on P Control vs Endorphinmachine as an opening song! Pretty sure there isn't a poll on it to determine which would be a better opening song.

We have no idea why most fans prefer which version of Endorphinmachine, again there is no list of the reasons. Me, personally I prefer the less-produced original version which is similar to Dolphin (which remained on the album in its original form). Shy is another track which is pretty basic that fits still (I prefer the album version).

For me Endorphinmachine, Come and Zannalee were prefect as they were and didn't need the additional effects. Again my opinion.

Interactive is a great opener and obviousy fits in with the operator segues.

Anyways

[Edited 9/5/18 2:26am]

I guess my point was that "it's all subjective and a matter of personal opinion/sensibility", as often defended on this board, isn't acceptable. While arts isn't science and I'm sure someone could come up with a 300 pages book explaining why Killer Tomatoes is better than Citizen Kane and Fight Club altogether, it all comes up to how you argue about it (and that book would be really hard to write if you ask me!). I believe there are certain objective ways to assess works of arts, such as technical mastery, relevance and originality in the context of the history of arts or that particular artistic discipline/genre at any given time, and so on, but in the end what matters is one's capacity to defend their perspective. It's not about polls because not everyone is an expert (I would even argue that most people don't know shit and that their opinion is quite irrelevant, I'm not talking about you but in general).

.

Now I can defend Prince's decisions, I think he knew what he was doing way more than most fans think, and I've explained why: I believe Prince was right when he decided PC was a stronger opener than Interactive as explained above; I believe Prince was right when he decided Endorphinmachine didn't work back to back with Interactive (because Interactive is faster and Endorphinmachine then sounds like a downer); I believe Prince was right when he felt Endorphinmachine needed an upgrade to fit in the specific context of TGE, again as explained above (and BTW, Dolphin was not in its original form, which can partly be heard on The Undertaker, it was also overdubbed but much earlier, and it was already upgraded by the time of GSU, but some fans also say they would prefer it to have remained keyboards-free).

.

We could have fascinating debates about the objective or "as-objective-as-I-can-make-it-sound-objective-by-argueing-about-it" qualities of Prince's works, but usually it ends-up with "this is great" and "this is shit" and "this is all opinion so why debate about it" and therefore I really wonder why do people bother come here and give their opinion if they can't elaborate on them, as if anyone cared. I think the internet has this tendency to make people believe that their feelings and opinions matter, whether in arts or politics or any other topic, but honestly no, they don't. Not unless they're ready to defend them with solid arguments.

databank said:

KAB said:

I meant everything arty can only be judged subjectively. Not sure with the everything is something line; clearly the songs exist but the opinions regarding their merits will always be subjective no matter how many people agree or not.

Killer Tomatoes vs Fight Club has no bearing on P Control vs Endorphinmachine as an opening song! Pretty sure there isn't a poll on it to determine which would be a better opening song.

We have no idea why most fans prefer which version of Endorphinmachine, again there is no list of the reasons. Me, personally I prefer the less-produced original version which is similar to Dolphin (which remained on the album in its original form). Shy is another track which is pretty basic that fits still (I prefer the album version).

For me Endorphinmachine, Come and Zannalee were prefect as they were and didn't need the additional effects. Again my opinion.

Interactive is a great opener and obviousy fits in with the operator segues.

Anyways

[Edited 9/5/18 2:26am]

I guess my point was that "it's all subjective and a matter of personal opinion/sensibility", as often defended on this board, isn't acceptable. While arts isn't science and I'm sure someone could come up with a 300 pages book explaining why Killer Tomatoes is better than Citizen Kane and Fight Club altogether, it all comes up to how you argue about it (and that book would be really hard to write if you ask me!). I believe there are certain objective ways to assess works of arts, such as technical mastery, relevance and originality in the context of the history of arts or that particular artistic discipline/genre at any given time, and so on, but in the end what matters is one's capacity to defend their perspective. It's not about polls because not everyone is an expert (I would even argue that most people don't know shit and that their opinion is quite irrelevant, I'm not talking about you but in general).

.

Now I can defend Prince's decisions, I think he knew what he was doing way more than most fans think, and I've explained why: I believe Prince was right when he decided PC was a stronger opener than Interactive as explained above; I believe Prince was right when he decided Endorphinmachine didn't work back to back with Interactive (because Interactive is faster and Endorphinmachine then sounds like a downer); I believe Prince was right when he felt Endorphinmachine needed an upgrade to fit in the specific context of TGE, again as explained above (and BTW, Dolphin was not in its original form, which can partly be heard on The Undertaker, it was also overdubbed but much earlier, and it was already upgraded by the time of GSU, but some fans also say they would prefer it to have remained keyboards-free).

.

We could have fascinating debates about the objective or "as-objective-as-I-can-make-it-sound-objective-by-argueing-about-it" qualities of Prince's works, but usually it ends-up with "this is great" and "this is shit" and "this is all opinion so why debate about it" and therefore I really wonder why do people bother come here and give their opinion if they can't elaborate on them, as if anyone cared. I think the internet has this tendency to make people believe that their feelings and opinions matter, whether in arts or politics or any other topic, but honestly no, they don't. Not unless they're ready to defend them with solid arguments.

Not sure with the Killer tomotoes thing, not relevant. Opinion / perspective are still subjective regardless of which piece of art we can discuss.

I've checked the Ultimate Come thread and The Undertaker version of Dolphin is the live version from the those particualr sessions (14 June 1993). In any case the live version is used with added outro from a studio version. There may have been alterations along the way to the TGE release but Dolphin is still pretty much the basic track with guitars as the lead, which is what the original version of Endprphinmachine was until he added keyboards and finger cymbals etc etc.

[Edited 9/6/18 2:43am]

[Edited 9/6/18 18:49pm]

fms said:

I distinctly remember USA Today teasing “Interactive video premieres this week” exactly 25 years ago. But I didn’t have The Box so I never saw it till the video game came out almost a year later. I thought it was odd that a new video was coming out when his Hits/B-sides set was only weeks away! Since I never saw the video (or even knew how to access it) I thought it was a mistake, or it had been canceled. Did people actually see it on The Box in August, 1993? Did it actually air? I also remember seeing the Glam Slam dancers perform to Endorphinmachine on Arsenio Hall around the same time - late summer 1993. Taped that show, made audio cassette and wore that out! Good memories of a magical time.

I didn't know the Glam Slam Ulysses dancers had performed Endorphinmachine on Arsenio Hall in 1993. That's interesting. Thank you for the information.

KAB said:

For me Endorphinmachine, Come and Zannalee were prefect as they were and didn't need the additional effects. Again my opinion.

Interactive is a great opener and obviousy fits in with the operator segues.

I agree completely. When I hear the music from this era, I play the March 1994 configurations of Come and The Gold Experience while the officially released configurations gather dust on the shelves.

scififilmnerd said:

scififilmnerd said:

fms said:

I distinctly remember USA Today teasing “Interactive video premieres this week” exactly 25 years ago. But I didn’t have The Box so I never saw it till the video game came out almost a year later. I thought it was odd that a new video was coming out when his Hits/B-sides set was only weeks away! Since I never saw the video (or even knew how to access it) I thought it was a mistake, or it had been canceled. Did people actually see it on The Box in August, 1993? Did it actually air? I also remember seeing the Glam Slam dancers perform to Endorphinmachine on Arsenio Hall around the same time - late summer 1993. Taped that show, made audio cassette and wore that out! Good memories of a magical time.

I didn't know the Glam Slam Ulysses dancers had performed Endorphinmachine on Arsenio Hall in 1993. That's interesting. Thank you for the information.

I'd missed that part. OK, it's also the first time I hear of it, it's quite odd.

KAB said:

databank said:

I guess my point was that "it's all subjective and a matter of personal opinion/sensibility", as often defended on this board, isn't acceptable. While arts isn't science and I'm sure someone could come up with a 300 pages book explaining why Killer Tomatoes is better than Citizen Kane and Fight Club altogether, it all comes up to how you argue about it (and that book would be really hard to write if you ask me!). I believe there are certain objective ways to assess works of arts, such as technical mastery, relevance and originality in the context of the history of arts or that particular artistic discipline/genre at any given time, and so on, but in the end what matters is one's capacity to defend their perspective. It's not about polls because not everyone is an expert (I would even argue that most people don't know shit and that their opinion is quite irrelevant, I'm not talking about you but in general).

.

Now I can defend Prince's decisions, I think he knew what he was doing way more than most fans think, and I've explained why: I believe Prince was right when he decided PC was a stronger opener than Interactive as explained above; I believe Prince was right when he decided Endorphinmachine didn't work back to back with Interactive (because Interactive is faster and Endorphinmachine then sounds like a downer); I believe Prince was right when he felt Endorphinmachine needed an upgrade to fit in the specific context of TGE, again as explained above (and BTW, Dolphin was not in its original form, which can partly be heard on The Undertaker, it was also overdubbed but much earlier, and it was already upgraded by the time of GSU, but some fans also say they would prefer it to have remained keyboards-free).

.

We could have fascinating debates about the objective or "as-objective-as-I-can-make-it-sound-objective-by-argueing-about-it" qualities of Prince's works, but usually it ends-up with "this is great" and "this is shit" and "this is all opinion so why debate about it" and therefore I really wonder why do people bother come here and give their opinion if they can't elaborate on them, as if anyone cared. I think the internet has this tendency to make people believe that their feelings and opinions matter, whether in arts or politics or any other topic, but honestly no, they don't. Not unless they're ready to defend them with solid arguments.

Not sure with the Killer tomotoes thing, not relevant. Opinion / perspective are still subjective regardless of which piece of art we can discuss.

I disagree. I think when you do produce art yourself you eventually come come to realise that there's a certain amount of skills required, that transcend subjective opinions/perspectives.

.

I've checked the Ultimate Come thread and The Undertaker version of Dolphin is the live version from the those particualr sessions (14 June 1993). In any case the live version is used with added outro from a studio version. There may have been alterations along the way to the TGE release but Dolphin is still pretty much the basic track with guitars as the lead, which is what the original version of Endprphinmachine was until he added keyboards and finger cymbals etc etc.

There are 2 distinct versions of The Undertaker. The 1993 release features the June 14 version but the 1995 release features the January 2 version of it. And I was wrong in my previous post: in fact that January 2 version was also the one featured in Glam Slam Ulysses (only longer).

The version on The Gold Experience was updated with keyboards and Lenny's vocals at some point between late 93 and mid 94. Rockers should therefore bitch about the TGE version having been perverted like they do with Gold and Endorphinmachine.

[Edited 9/6/18 23:05pm]

databank said:

scififilmnerd said:

I didn't know the Glam Slam Ulysses dancers had performed Endorphinmachine on Arsenio Hall in 1993. That's interesting. Thank you for the information.

I'd missed that part. OK, it's also the first time I hear of it, it's quite odd.

I think I've found it: http://www.tv.com/shows/t...3-1881176/

scififilmnerd said:

KAB said:

For me Endorphinmachine, Come and Zannalee were prefect as they were and didn't need the additional effects. Again my opinion.

Interactive is a great opener and obviousy fits in with the operator segues.

I agree completely. When I hear the music from this era, I play the March 1994 configurations of Come and The Gold Experience while the officially released configurations gather dust on the shelves.

Is there any real version of the 1994 TGE in circulation? My version is one I made myself from various sources, but I'd love to have the real deal!!

databank said:

KAB said:

Not sure with the Killer tomotoes thing, not relevant. Opinion / perspective are still subjective regardless of which piece of art we can discuss.

I disagree. I think when you do produce art yourself you eventually come come to realise that there's a certain amount of skills required, that transcend subjective opinions/perspectives.

.

I've checked the Ultimate Come thread and The Undertaker version of Dolphin is the live version from the those particualr sessions (14 June 1993). In any case the live version is used with added outro from a studio version. There may have been alterations along the way to the TGE release but Dolphin is still pretty much the basic track with guitars as the lead, which is what the original version of Endprphinmachine was until he added keyboards and finger cymbals etc etc.

There are 2 distinct versions of The Undertaker. The 1993 release features the June 14 version but the 1995 release features the January 2 version of it. And I was wrong in my previous post: in fact that January 2 version was also the one featured in Glam Slam Ulysses (only longer).

The version on The Gold Experience was updated with keyboards and Lenny's vocals at some point between late 93 and mid 94. Rockers should therefore bitch about the TGE version having been perverted like they do with Gold and Endorphinmachine.

[Edited 9/6/18 23:05pm]

There are definately skills involved but its appreciaton by others (and the artist) will always be subjective.

It doesn't matter which version of Dolphin is on TGE, it is still guitar based (with keyboards) and therefore a great song and evidence Endorphinmachine or Interactive could fit in with the rest of TGE.

Gold is better as released.

All my opinions.

KAB said:

databank said:

[Edited 9/6/18 23:05pm]

There are definately skills involved but its appreciaton by others (and the artist) will always be subjective.

Yet I sometimes dislike certain works of arts while being convinced that they're great works of art.

And I also like things that I know are, in fact, quite bad.

I think P Control is one of the better tracks on the album, whereas Interactive falls a bit flat and is double raped by those silly segues.

databank said:

scififilmnerd said:

I agree completely. When I hear the music from this era, I play the March 1994 configurations of Come and The Gold Experience while the officially released configurations gather dust on the shelves.

Is there any real version of the 1994 TGE in circulation? My version is one I made myself from various sources, but I'd love to have the real deal!!

My copy is homemade too. I included the single version of The Most Beautiful Girl In The World, as I prefer that to the album version.

scififilmnerd said:

databank said:

Is there any real version of the 1994 TGE in circulation? My version is one I made myself from various sources, but I'd love to have the real deal!!

My copy is homemade too. I included the single version of The Most Beautiful Girl In The World, as I prefer that to the album version.

Same as mine. I did the same not because I prefer it but because from what I could grasp from Princevault, this was indeed the version included on the original configuration (if you could confirm that, it'd be interesting). Unfortunately with what I did you can hear a volume drop between the NPG Operator intro and the track, and I wasn't able to manage correcting that on Audacity.

Then I've used Days Of Wild from the 4DF release of the 1994 promo tape and, of course, Acknowledge Me and Ripopgodazippa from CB.

As for Interactive there were apparently one configuration with the short edit, then a month later Prince made another one with the long version, and Princevault doesn't say anything about the NPG Operator intro and interlude, so I assumed they were there (it wouldn't have made sense to remove them) and used the version from the Interactive CD-rom to recreate the first configuration (I assume the long version probably featured the NPG Operator as well, but as there's no long version with NPG Operator in circulation, we'd have to recreate it ourselves).

I'm never comfortable tinkering things myself in the hope of recreating an early album configuration, though, and I would really love it if the real deal would leak

As for which version I prefer between this and the released one, I couldn't ever decide. I just love all the tracks and just wish they'd all have been there.

databank said:

scififilmnerd said:

My copy is homemade too. I included the single version of The Most Beautiful Girl In The World, as I prefer that to the album version.

Same as mine. I did the same not because I prefer it but because from what I could grasp from Princevault, this was indeed the version included on the original configuration (if you could confirm that, it'd be interesting).

Both the single version and the album version of The Most Beautiful Girl In The World had been recorded when The Gold Experience was sequenced in March, so... it could have been either one on that configuration, I suppose. But in May, lip-synched to the album version at the Worrld Music Awards in Monaco, so I assume that the album version was the album version on the May configuration of The Gold Experience.

probably figured that everyone already had the single version, so he wanted to give them something else for the album.

scififilmnerd said:

databank said:

Same as mine. I did the same not because I prefer it but because from what I could grasp from Princevault, this was indeed the version included on the original configuration (if you could confirm that, it'd be interesting).

Both the single version and the album version of The Most Beautiful Girl In The World had been recorded when The Gold Experience was sequenced in March, so... it could have been either one on that configuration, I suppose. But in May, lip-synched to the album version at the Worrld Music Awards in Monaco, so I assume that the album version was the album version on the May configuration of The Gold Experience.

probably figured that everyone already had the single version, so he wanted to give them something else for the album.

I've just checked again and Pvault is more specific that I remembered: "The original version of the track was included as the sixth track (third song) on a March 1994 configuration of The Gold Experience, and kept as the sixth track (third song) on a May 1994 configuration. It was included as the seventh song on a Summer 1994 configuration, and the sixth song on an August 1994 configuration.", so strangely enough the final version apparently wasn't included until the October 1994 configuration. Prince has been known to record an alternate mix of a track for the sole purpose of a TV lip-synched per4mance on other occasions in the 90's (most likely because he didn't want it to sound lip-synched), so I suspect it was originally recorded for the WMA per4mance, then eventually favored to the single version for the record.

databank said:

I've just checked again and Pvault is more specific that I remembered: "The original version of the track was included as the sixth track (third song) on a March 1994 configuration of The Gold Experience, and kept as the sixth track (third song) on a May 1994 configuration. It was included as the seventh song on a Summer 1994 configuration, and the sixth song on an August 1994 configuration.", so strangely enough the final version apparently wasn't included until the October 1994 configuration. Prince has been known to record an alternate mix of a track for the sole purpose of a TV lip-synched per4mance on other occasions in the 90's (most likely because he didn't want it to sound lip-synched), so I suspect it was originally recorded for the WMA per4mance, then eventually favored to the single version for the record.

Oh, cool. Thanks for clearing that up.

databank said:

dodger said:

And scifi, I loved your Come/Gold threads back in the day

Thank you, dodger. A lot of new information has seen the light of day since then, and I have continously been updating the articles. So you can look forward to thoroughly updated and revised editions getting published in the not too distant future.

scififilmnerd said:

dodger said:

And scifi, I loved your Come/Gold threads back in the day

Thank you, dodger. A lot of new information has seen the light of day since then, and I have continously been updating the articles. So you can look forward to thoroughly updated and revised editions getting published in the not too distant future.

I definitely look forward to reading those

scififilmnerd said: