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Reply #450 posted 05/16/18 1:44pm

disch

I couldn't say -- when someone develops a dependence or addiction, they need to take the drugs (and more of them) to stave off debilitating withdrawal symptoms (things like vomiting, anxiety etc -- the kind of stuff he was complaining of Dr S and what Dr S prescribed drugs on 4/20 to combat). Dependence/addiction itself introduces another set of physical issues in addition to possible underlying pain issues.

-

What still is confusing to me is why if the physical pain was incapacitating, he didn't address it with a doctor (Dr S or someone else). Wouldn't this have been the very first thing he told Dr S when he first met with him?

MMJas said:

disch said:

I agree with what you wrote about his history with pain (the only thing was the the guitar-playing -- I believe what he said was he was choosing not to play guitar to focus on piano practice for the Piano & Mic tour. He did play guitar at the Chanhassan dinner theater a month before he died).

-

I definitely think he changed his physical approach in his last years (no high heels, etc. And no more splits!) to accomodate his issues.

-

I guess what I don't have info on is that he spent his last months in "excrutiating pain" in all those body parts. The steps he took -- surgery, different shoes etc -- would be in ways to ameliorate pain and/or prevent worsening. Hopefully those steps were effective in doing that.

-

If he were debilitated by pain in his last months, I certainly wish he had brought this to the attention of Dr S or another doctor (he had surgery, so clearly he wasn't averse to that) instead of concocting his own treatment plan with black-market pills.

I hear what you're saying. However, the fact the he was taking high dosages shows that he was becoming tolerant and feeling the pain still, right?

[Edited 5/16/18 13:46pm]

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Reply #451 posted 05/16/18 2:12pm

PennyPurple

avatar

Strawberrylova123 said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

I thought that was strange too; he was like "I was sleeping" but no; he was actually overdosing!

.

There are so many treatments available today for pain management and I'm unsure why Prince did not seek them out?

Prince was seeing a chiropractor in 2010 and 2016 so he was seeing help for pain management

A chiropractor is not the same as a pain management specialist.

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Reply #452 posted 05/16/18 2:42pm

cloveringold85

avatar

MMJas said:

Strawberrylova123 said:

cloveringold85 said: Prince was seeing a chiropractor in 2010 and 2016 so he was seeing help for pain management

Which means he was in pain, right? And he was used to blacking out whilst taking pain medication. Isn't that of real concern? It probably means the pain was heavy and he had to black out to stop feeling it. It's not like you take a painkiller for a headache and then continue working or doing whatever you were doing. He regarded it as normal to black out. I would be really scared of suffocating in vomit, for instance....

.

Yes, and we don't even know how many times he came close to being in that "black out" state and near overdose. eek

.

It's almost like an alcoholic who needs to drink more and more to get the same effect and feeling no pain, until the point of blacking-out.

.

Sad. sad

"With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016)
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Reply #453 posted 05/16/18 2:44pm

cloveringold85

avatar

80tomato said:

MMJas said:

Which means he was in pain, right? And he was used to blacking out whilst taking pain medication. Isn't that of real concern? It probably means the pain was heavy and he had to black out to stop feeling it. It's not like you take a painkiller for a headache and then continue working or doing whatever you were doing. He regarded it as normal to black out. I would be really scared of suffocating in vomit, for instance....

Yes , and he seemed to ENJOY and look forward to this deep sleep and he talked of seeing people who had passed while asleep .

.

As sad as this sounds, he probably enjoyed when he could sleep and thus, feel no pain. When you again awake, you feel the pain again and repeat the cycle.

"With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016)
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Reply #454 posted 05/16/18 2:45pm

cloveringold85

avatar

Bodhitheblackdog said:

80tomato said:

Yes , and he seemed to ENJOY and look forward to this deep sleep and he talked of seeing people who had passed while asleep .

Does anyone else here see the bright line between Prince using drugs to render himself unconscious and MJ's use of propofol to render himself unconscious every night SO HE COULD SLEEP????? No wonder Prince didn't want to comment on MJ's death, saying he was "too close" to the situation. Geeez...this was not a trail of breadcrumbs...this was a trail of bread trucks...

.

Very true, only that MJ was doing it for other reasons. Prince had real, physical pain(s).

"With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016)
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Reply #455 posted 05/16/18 2:49pm

cloveringold85

avatar

disch said:

I couldn't say -- when someone develops a dependence or addiction, they need to take the drugs (and more of them) to stave off debilitating withdrawal symptoms (things like vomiting, anxiety etc -- the kind of stuff he was complaining of Dr S and what Dr S prescribed drugs on 4/20 to combat). Dependence/addiction itself introduces another set of physical issues in addition to possible underlying pain issues.

-

What still is confusing to me is why if the physical pain was incapacitating, he didn't address it with a doctor (Dr S or someone else). Wouldn't this have been the very first thing he told Dr S when he first met with him?

MMJas said:

I hear what you're saying. However, the fact the he was taking high dosages shows that he was becoming tolerant and feeling the pain still, right?

[Edited 5/16/18 13:46pm]

.

And, this is what I've been saying all along; why didn't Dr. Schulenberg contact the family and tell them that Prince needs to get into treatment, ASAP?? Was he too afraid to tell Prince this?? I'm sure Dr. Schulenberg knows well-qualified addiction specialist in MN.

.

We will never know "why". sad

"With love, honor, and respect for every living thing in the universe, separation ceases, and we all become one being, singing one song." - Prince Roger Nelson (1958-2016)
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Reply #456 posted 05/16/18 3:06pm

LOVESYMBOLNUMB
ER2

Bodhitheblackdog said:



80tomato said:




MMJas said:




Which means he was in pain, right? And he was used to blacking out whilst taking pain medication. Isn't that of real concern? It probably means the pain was heavy and he had to black out to stop feeling it. It's not like you take a painkiller for a headache and then continue working or doing whatever you were doing. He regarded it as normal to black out. I would be really scared of suffocating in vomit, for instance....





Yes , and he seemed to ENJOY and look forward to this deep sleep and he talked of seeing people who had passed while asleep .



Does anyone else here see the bright line between Prince using drugs to render himself unconscious and MJ's use of propofol to render himself unconscious every night SO HE COULD SLEEP????? No wonder Prince didn't want to comment on MJ's death, saying he was "too close" to the situation. Geeez...this was not a trail of breadcrumbs...this was a trail of bread trucks...




Where did he talk about wanting to sleep other than to Judith on the Atlanta trip? I thought it was the opposite he was antsy and agitated and was not sleeping much at all in the last few months. I may have missed the sleeping more discussion...did associates or prince say his sleeping patterns had changed?
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Reply #457 posted 05/16/18 3:11pm

Bodhitheblackd
og

cloveringold85 said:

disch said:

I couldn't say -- when someone develops a dependence or addiction, they need to take the drugs (and more of them) to stave off debilitating withdrawal symptoms (things like vomiting, anxiety etc -- the kind of stuff he was complaining of Dr S and what Dr S prescribed drugs on 4/20 to combat). Dependence/addiction itself introduces another set of physical issues in addition to possible underlying pain issues.

-

What still is confusing to me is why if the physical pain was incapacitating, he didn't address it with a doctor (Dr S or someone else). Wouldn't this have been the very first thing he told Dr S when he first met with him?

[Edited 5/16/18 13:46pm]

.

And, this is what I've been saying all along; why didn't Dr. Schulenberg contact the family and tell them that Prince needs to get into treatment, ASAP?? Was he too afraid to tell Prince this?? I'm sure Dr. Schulenberg knows well-qualified addiction specialist in MN.

.

We will never know "why". sad

WHY? Because it's the LAW to protect patient privacy...duh.I'm not sure that spilling the beans re the health of an adult to 'family members' OR ANY OTHER SENTIENT BEING lines up with HIPPA Privacy protections....would you want your private medical information shared with a half-sibling, for example, with whom you had no contact and who had never been in your home? Would you want your struggles with addiction shared with your not-too-bright sister who had drug addiction issues of her own? I mean, where would such a violation end? Would it be OK to tell Rolling Stone or TMZ just so those entities could light a fire under Prince? Unless someone is specifically named as a health care representative...they are not entitled to ANY medical information about an individual....and that goes for a spouse. Get real.This sounds like the drival posted by some orgers to the effect that if they had been around, they would have kidnapped Prince and taken him, against his will, to a hospital. Hey, while you're at it...why not sexually molest him in the car on the way over? I mean, you're a fan, right???You can do no wrong.

[Edited 5/16/18 15:13pm]

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Reply #458 posted 05/16/18 3:14pm

LOVESYMBOLNUMB
ER2

cloveringold85 said:



Bodhitheblackdog said:




80tomato said:





Yes , and he seemed to ENJOY and look forward to this deep sleep and he talked of seeing people who had passed while asleep .



Does anyone else here see the bright line between Prince using drugs to render himself unconscious and MJ's use of propofol to render himself unconscious every night SO HE COULD SLEEP????? No wonder Prince didn't want to comment on MJ's death, saying he was "too close" to the situation. Geeez...this was not a trail of breadcrumbs...this was a trail of bread trucks...



.


Very true, only that MJ was doing it for other reasons. Prince had real, physical pain(s).







You know lots lots of people addicted to drugs say they are in terrible pain to get drugs or to get sympathy/less judgment for their addiction. Isn't it possible that he initially did take them to ease the pain, but in the end the drug use had very little to do with pain, and much more to do with total dependency. Which would be why he did not discuss pain with Dr S, because Dr S was the inroads to rehab so maybe tell him the truth...and as usual I have no idea what happened, just a thought...
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Reply #459 posted 05/16/18 3:24pm

nelcp777

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Very true, only that MJ was doing it for other reasons. Prince had real, physical pain(s).

You know lots lots of people addicted to drugs say they are in terrible pain to get drugs or to get sympathy/less judgment for their addiction. Isn't it possible that he initially did take them to ease the pain, but in the end the drug use had very little to do with pain, and much more to do with total dependency. Which would be why he did not discuss pain with Dr S, because Dr S was the inroads to rehab so maybe tell him the truth...and as usual I have no idea what happened, just a thought...

Interesting perspective.

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Reply #460 posted 05/16/18 3:35pm

Morgaine

After reading the investigation files, I believe he was in an ongoing state of withdrawal due to the varying ingredients in the street pills that were tested: some with only lidocaine, some with hydrocodone and lidocaine, some with different amounts of Fentanyl, etc.
For someone with constant pain in need of medication this is one of the worst things they can do. He should've had a chronic pain doctor & been on something long acting plus something for break through pain.
It is extremely sad to me, that his pain was treatable but he chose to do it alone, which I believe this had to do with his need to control everything.
As for Kirk, I believe he knew there were issues in the past but did not know about Prince's street meds. I believe he was doing his best to help him and I can't imagine the guilt and pain he feels from his death. I do not think Kirk is heartless, but I am well aware that people did not argue with Prince - it's quite obvious that this was a huge no-no and got many fired.

I believe he knew he was addicted. I believe it began as dependence, but in not allowing others - professionals who know more - to help & treat him, he didn't do himself any favors.
I also believe he began taking meds during the Purple Rain tour after he was injured from the tub falling.

I beleive he used it off and on for years, when it was necessary for him to perform. He was not God.

I believe after his son died, he started again, with the motivator being physical pain (mid 30s, 10+ years of jumping off speakers, etc) but opiates also make mental and emotional pain float away on a nice puffy cloud, which is one of the reasons they are so addicting

He was brilliant. A musical genius who was & always be a huge part of my life.
I do not care if he was addicted, dependent, or killed himself; many think addiction is slow suicide, anyway, and none of it will change my appreciation and love for the music he created.

I would also note there is something to be said for the masses (including myself) believing his image was his totality. I beleive that illusion, combined with his need to control his life and environment snowballed into, ultimately, his death.
Peace.

The kind of love that takes over your body, mind, & soul
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Reply #461 posted 05/16/18 3:41pm

Bodhitheblackd
og

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Very true, only that MJ was doing it for other reasons. Prince had real, physical pain(s).

You know lots lots of people addicted to drugs say they are in terrible pain to get drugs or to get sympathy/less judgment for their addiction. Isn't it possible that he initially did take them to ease the pain, but in the end the drug use had very little to do with pain, and much more to do with total dependency. Which would be why he did not discuss pain with Dr S, because Dr S was the inroads to rehab so maybe tell him the truth...and as usual I have no idea what happened, just a thought...

I have known several people addicted to opioids and the origional reason for use, usually physical pain, very quickly got lost in the fog of how good the pills made them feel physically and emotionally. If you want to hear mega shaggy dog tales, just listen to an addict riff on all the reasons they "need" the pills to ease their "pain." They never tell the truth, like good addicts, that they want the pills because they like the way they make them feel and, incidentally, 'my brain is craving them so bad I'd kill my mother for her stash.' Energy drinks 24/7 to stay awake? Tells his doc he's 'feeling antsy'? The narcan made him sick? The soup made him ill? Grow up, folks, he was an addict.

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Reply #462 posted 05/16/18 3:42pm

80tomato

nelcp777 said:

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

cloveringold85 said: You know lots lots of people addicted to drugs say they are in terrible pain to get drugs or to get sympathy/less judgment for their addiction. Isn't it possible that he initially did take them to ease the pain, but in the end the drug use had very little to do with pain, and much more to do with total dependency. Which would be why he did not discuss pain with Dr S, because Dr S was the inroads to rehab so maybe tell him the truth...and as usual I have no idea what happened, just a thought...

Interesting perspective.

From a nytimes article may 4 2016
Prince’s representatives asked Jeremiah Freed, a blogger who runs drfunkenberry.com, to help spread the word of the party on Saturday night. Before that night, Mr. Freed said, he never really had any concerns about Prince’s condition, though he was struck by something that the musician told him in January. Prince spoke of David Bowie’s death, Mr. Freed recalled, saying he was having lucid dreams in which he communicated with people who died

And I agree with lovesymbol that maybe the pain became an easy excuse...my mum liked to have her morphine before bedtime, when she was dying from cancer, because she said she had deeper sleeps

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Reply #463 posted 05/16/18 3:45pm

Morgaine

bondno9 said:

nelcp777 said:

fortuneandserendipity said: I agree with you. Perhaps Andrew describing Kirk as nervous that morning was because of the possible intervention and Kirk not knowing how Prince may act. Kirk trying to get Prince help at the last minute may have been hard on Kirk.

According to Kirk Prince requested help after meeting with KJ, Larry Graham, and Meron on the 19th. Also, he sent Prince an email early a.m. hours of 4/21 stating all care for house had been arranged. Sooo Kirky shouldn't have been nervous cause like he told Dr. S (morning of 4/21) he was waiting to give Prince something to take the edge off.

I don't think Kirk believed Prince had any opiates at PP. He stated he took all of the meds with him. Remember they were in various bottles, etc scattered throughout PP. I also do not believe Kirk had anything to do with the street meds, either.

Imho, he stuck his neck out for Prince by getting him the meds from Dr S and the dentist.

I don't think Kirk is a bad guy but I do think he was in way over his head.

The kind of love that takes over your body, mind, & soul
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Reply #464 posted 05/16/18 3:46pm

Bodhitheblackd
og

Morgaine said:

After reading the investigation files, I believe he was in an ongoing state of withdrawal due to the varying ingredients in the street pills that were tested: some with only lidocaine, some with hydrocodone and lidocaine, some with different amounts of Fentanyl, etc.
For someone with constant pain in need of medication this is one of the worst things they can do. He should've had a chronic pain doctor & been on something long acting plus something for break through pain.
It is extremely sad to me, that his pain was treatable but he chose to do it alone, which I believe this had to do with his need to control everything.
As for Kirk, I believe he knew there were issues in the past but did not know about Prince's street meds. I believe he was doing his best to help him and I can't imagine the guilt and pain he feels from his death. I do not think Kirk is heartless, but I am well aware that people did not argue with Prince - it's quite obvious that this was a huge no-no and got many fired.

I believe he knew he was addicted. I believe it began as dependence, but in not allowing others - professionals who know more - to help & treat him, he didn't do himself any favors.
I also believe he began taking meds during the Purple Rain tour after he was injured from the tub falling.

I beleive he used it off and on for years, when it was necessary for him to perform. He was not God.

I believe after his son died, he started again, with the motivator being physical pain (mid 30s, 10+ years of jumping off speakers, etc) but opiates also make mental and emotional pain float away on a nice puffy cloud, which is one of the reasons they are so addicting

He was brilliant. A musical genius who was & always be a huge part of my life.
I do not care if he was addicted, dependent, or killed himself; many think addiction is slow suicide, anyway, and none of it will change my appreciation and love for the music he created.

I would also note there is something to be said for the masses (including myself) believing his image was his totality. I beleive that illusion, combined with his need to control his life and environment snowballed into, ultimately, his death.
Peace.

Thank you for this great summation; especially for the bolded above. Thank God for Prince and the music.

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Reply #465 posted 05/16/18 3:54pm

LOVESYMBOLNUMB
ER2

Morgaine said:



bondno9 said:




nelcp777 said:


fortuneandserendipity said: I agree with you. Perhaps Andrew describing Kirk as nervous that morning was because of the possible intervention and Kirk not knowing how Prince may act. Kirk trying to get Prince help at the last minute may have been hard on Kirk.


According to Kirk Prince requested help after meeting with KJ, Larry Graham, and Meron on the 19th. Also, he sent Prince an email early a.m. hours of 4/21 stating all care for house had been arranged. Sooo Kirky shouldn't have been nervous cause like he told Dr. S (morning of 4/21) he was waiting to give Prince something to take the edge off.




I don't think Kirk believed Prince had any opiates at PP. He stated he took all of the meds with him. Remember they were in various bottles, etc scattered throughout PP. I also do not believe Kirk had anything to do with the street meds, either.


Imho, he stuck his neck out for Prince by getting him the meds from Dr S and the dentist.


I don't think Kirk is a bad guy but I do think he was in way over his head.






Kirk may or may not be a bad guy, but he does have eye balls, and if he could walk around looking at prince the last year and not notice there was a serious problem, then Kirk has mental problems. Prince looked scary sick and to not do anything or say anything for fear of losing his job...ya, leaning towards bad guy...it defies logic for anyone to look at him and not know something was very wrong...
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Reply #466 posted 05/16/18 3:59pm

purplerabbitho
le

I agree with a lot of what you said, except that I don't think is image and need to control were his totality. I think they were his shelter. He was neurotic, even he admitted it. Unfortunately, this "shelter" or bubble suffocated him. As for people getting fired over mentioning the drugs, there seems to be some evidence that people did try to help in subtle, non-pushy ways and weren't fired. And NDA's don't hold when a crime is committed. Firings could happen but that would not mean that the person fired could not still "out" him to the press for his drug usage--Prince being unable to successfully sue. I really think confronting him about drugs was complicated by the lack of direct evidence. Hear me out..he showed symptoms and overdosed but unless he was popping pills right in front of them it would be hard to prove in a legal sense. He could very easily make excuses, claim it was medicinal or an accident. It is only the people who would belabor the point who might actually get the truth but those people (of course) would probably be let go for invading his privacy before they would get any confirmation from him.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Morgaine said:

After reading the investigation files, I believe he was in an ongoing state of withdrawal due to the varying ingredients in the street pills that were tested: some with only lidocaine, some with hydrocodone and lidocaine, some with different amounts of Fentanyl, etc.
For someone with constant pain in need of medication this is one of the worst things they can do. He should've had a chronic pain doctor & been on something long acting plus something for break through pain.
It is extremely sad to me, that his pain was treatable but he chose to do it alone, which I believe this had to do with his need to control everything.
As for Kirk, I believe he knew there were issues in the past but did not know about Prince's street meds. I believe he was doing his best to help him and I can't imagine the guilt and pain he feels from his death. I do not think Kirk is heartless, but I am well aware that people did not argue with Prince - it's quite obvious that this was a huge no-no and got many fired.

I believe he knew he was addicted. I believe it began as dependence, but in not allowing others - professionals who know more - to help & treat him, he didn't do himself any favors.
I also believe he began taking meds during the Purple Rain tour after he was injured from the tub falling.

I beleive he used it off and on for years, when it was necessary for him to perform. He was not God.

I believe after his son died, he started again, with the motivator being physical pain (mid 30s, 10+ years of jumping off speakers, etc) but opiates also make mental and emotional pain float away on a nice puffy cloud, which is one of the reasons they are so addicting

He was brilliant. A musical genius who was & always be a huge part of my life.
I do not care if he was addicted, dependent, or killed himself; many think addiction is slow suicide, anyway, and none of it will change my appreciation and love for the music he created.

I would also note there is something to be said for the masses (including myself) believing his image was his totality. I beleive that illusion, combined with his need to control his life and environment snowballed into, ultimately, his death.
Peace.

Thank you for this great summation; especially for the bolded above. Thank God for Prince and the music.

[Edited 5/16/18 16:16pm]

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Reply #467 posted 05/16/18 4:00pm

Morgaine

Bodhitheblackdog said:

kmama07 said:

disch said: Agreed on the email pulling...why didn't the investigators find this questionable and follow up?

I still think there was a vibe of 'let's protect the hometown hero' about this whole"investigation" in that 'accident' sounds so much more innocent and less violent that 'suicide.' It's also puzzling to me that given the expertise of the ME re Fent she still saw the MASSIVE, almost without precendant levels of Fent in his system as accidental rather than the result of a purposeful act.

I think in a misguided spasm of caring they were trying to protect his reputation.

I agree but would also add that I believe there are details they know that they are not releasing that led them to the idea if accidental OD from the beginning.

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Reply #468 posted 05/16/18 4:06pm

Morgaine

disch said:

Re: the fentanyl: One reason perhaps for the "accident" determination is because the ME also knew, based on the pill analysis, that each laced pill contained a massive amount of fentanyl. So it's not like he swallowed a dozen pills or whatever like an average suicide-by-pill might entail. He probably took a relatively small number of pills, what for another person (or an opioid addict with high tolerance) would be a typical dose -- if they actually were the pills they appeared to be and not laced counterfeits.

-

I still don't see any evidence that Prince knew the composition of these counterfeit pills or their potential toxicity. I still think our previous discussions that he didn't actually understand why he had the plane crisis (due to lack of testing or either him or the pills) is most in line with the facts that have come out in the investigation. (No one actually knows with certainty precisely what opioid caused the plane OD but i feel it was most likely a fentanyl-laced pill.)

Bodhitheblackdog said:

I still think there was a vibe of 'let's protect the hometown hero' about this whole"investigation" in that 'accident' sounds so much more innocent and less violent that 'suicide.' It's also puzzling to me that given the expertise of the ME re Fent she still saw the MASSIVE, almost without precendant levels of Fent in his system as accidental rather than the result of a purposeful act.

I think in a misguided spasm of caring they were trying to protect his reputation.

The released documents stated the tested pills contained differening amounts of Fentanyl so there's no consistency which means no reliable way for her (or anyone) to know whether he took one or two or three pills and how much Fentanyl they contained.

I do not think he had any idea how much he was taking. How could he? Some of the tested pills had only lidocaine. It seems obvious to me that he took a pill (or 2 or 3) because he was in pain and ended up dying because he had no idea how much Fentanyl/opiods the pill(s) contained.

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Reply #469 posted 05/16/18 4:12pm

Morgaine

laytonian said:

purplerabbithole said:
They could not have been that new.there was a lot of fentanyl in his liver. He had a tolerance. I think at very least he knew it was not the standard Percocet
You are confusing what I said and trying to justify your position. Bull. He had no fentanyl in his urine. Only Percocet/hydro. You need to learn how the body metabolizes. Fentanyl stays in the body for about four days. The only traces were in his gastric system and liver. If he was taking it all the time, it would have been in his urine. It would only take a few pills, if they were pure fentanyl, to kill a human. I REPEAT: he took the prescribed Percocet sometime during the week and just likely reached for the handy Bayer bottle. He'd been told in Moline it looked like Percocet. Suicide would be a mortal sin to him. [Edited 5/15/18 12:27pm]

Not to be a stickler but the street/bad meds were made to look like Norco/Vicodin. The pills Dr S prescribed in Kirk's name for Prince was Percocet.

Moline only IDd a pill by the markings - it wad not tested to see what it contained. If it had been, someone would've been in a lot of trouble, but Prince might still be alive, too.

I do not think he thought he was taking Fentanyl - does anyone really think that he'd hand over meds he thought were something else to be tested? I doubt it.

More and more it appears to me that he really had no idea what he was taking.

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Reply #470 posted 05/16/18 4:16pm

Morgaine

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

zenarose said:

You are right. It isn't a smoking gun. There are oodles of red flags tho. This little tidbit just twists my head. I don't understand getting meds, not using them, then throwing them away. Makes no sense. Maybe KJ had some problems of his own.(medical)

Does seem KJ has his own problem or was gathering meds to make it appear that P had a problem. The scripts in the garbage can, the dates and what appears to be what P was going to take was not what was given, it appears Kirk did the switching on at least the moline incident and the prior date P had cancelled the show on the 7th due to feeling sick.

You're (obviously) entitled to your own opinion, but I really do not think Kirk has an opiate problem and/or was trying to make it look like Prince had one. I'm not sure where you come up with that theory, but I don't agree based on what is piblically known right now.

I think he was trying to help Prince the best way he knew how and was way out of his depth. It's an extremely difficult situation to be in. At least he tried - it doens't look like anyone else ever did.

The kind of love that takes over your body, mind, & soul
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Reply #471 posted 05/16/18 4:20pm

purplerabbitho
le

Others might have tried as well (perhaps in subtle or non-pushy ways). there is no way for us to know that. I know Sheila refused to enable and Morris Hayes asked him years ago and got a denial followed by Prince taking his first vacation ever..(1994). I think when he was younger, it was probably easier to hide usage behind eccentricity and isolation. When he was older, it seems to have started to catch up with him.

Morgaine said:

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

zenarose said: Does seem KJ has his own problem or was gathering meds to make it appear that P had a problem. The scripts in the garbage can, the dates and what appears to be what P was going to take was not what was given, it appears Kirk did the switching on at least the moline incident and the prior date P had cancelled the show on the 7th due to feeling sick.

You're (obviously) entitled to your own opinion, but I really do not think Kirk has an opiate problem and/or was trying to make it look like Prince had one. I'm not sure where you come up with that theory, but I don't agree based on what is piblically known right now.

I think he was trying to help Prince the best way he knew how and was way out of his depth. It's an extremely difficult situation to be in. At least he tried - it doens't look like anyone else ever did.

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Reply #472 posted 05/16/18 4:22pm

purplerabbitho
le

He may not have known it was fentanyl, but he had to have known it was stronger. Maybe, he didn't care until it almost killed him in Molene and then he wondered. But I wonder whether or not he cared on the 21st.

What I find odd is that Prince said to Kirk that the overdose was because he mixed meds. But if he was mixing the percocet from Shulbarg with the Bayer pills labeled as percocet, why would he call that mixing?

Morgaine said:

laytonian said:

purplerabbithole said: You are confusing what I said and trying to justify your position. Bull. He had no fentanyl in his urine. Only Percocet/hydro. You need to learn how the body metabolizes. Fentanyl stays in the body for about four days. The only traces were in his gastric system and liver. If he was taking it all the time, it would have been in his urine. It would only take a few pills, if they were pure fentanyl, to kill a human. I REPEAT: he took the prescribed Percocet sometime during the week and just likely reached for the handy Bayer bottle. He'd been told in Moline it looked like Percocet. Suicide would be a mortal sin to him. [Edited 5/15/18 12:27pm]

Not to be a stickler but the street/bad meds were made to look like Norco/Vicodin. The pills Dr S prescribed in Kirk's name for Prince was Percocet.

Moline only IDd a pill by the markings - it wad not tested to see what it contained. If it had been, someone would've been in a lot of trouble, but Prince might still be alive, too.

I do not think he thought he was taking Fentanyl - does anyone really think that he'd hand over meds he thought were something else to be tested? I doubt it.

More and more it appears to me that he really had no idea what he was taking.

[Edited 5/16/18 16:24pm]

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Reply #473 posted 05/16/18 4:29pm

Morgaine

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Morgaine said:

After reading the investigation files, I believe he was in an ongoing state of withdrawal due to the varying ingredients in the street pills that were tested: some with only lidocaine, some with hydrocodone and lidocaine, some with different amounts of Fentanyl, etc.
For someone with constant pain in need of medication this is one of the worst things they can do. He should've had a chronic pain doctor & been on something long acting plus something for break through pain.
It is extremely sad to me, that his pain was treatable but he chose to do it alone, which I believe this had to do with his need to control everything.
As for Kirk, I believe he knew there were issues in the past but did not know about Prince's street meds. I believe he was doing his best to help him and I can't imagine the guilt and pain he feels from his death. I do not think Kirk is heartless, but I am well aware that people did not argue with Prince - it's quite obvious that this was a huge no-no and got many fired.

I believe he knew he was addicted. I believe it began as dependence, but in not allowing others - professionals who know more - to help & treat him, he didn't do himself any favors.
I also believe he began taking meds during the Purple Rain tour after he was injured from the tub falling.

I beleive he used it off and on for years, when it was necessary for him to perform. He was not God.

I believe after his son died, he started again, with the motivator being physical pain (mid 30s, 10+ years of jumping off speakers, etc) but opiates also make mental and emotional pain float away on a nice puffy cloud, which is one of the reasons they are so addicting

He was brilliant. A musical genius who was & always be a huge part of my life.
I do not care if he was addicted, dependent, or killed himself; many think addiction is slow suicide, anyway, and none of it will change my appreciation and love for the music he created.

I would also note there is something to be said for the masses (including myself) believing his image was his totality. I beleive that illusion, combined with his need to control his life and environment snowballed into, ultimately, his death.
Peace.

Thank you for this great summation; especially for the bolded above. Thank God for Prince and the music.

Thank you for yur continuing honesty Bodhi!

I only have time to post occasionally but I've kept on reading through every one of these and am very grateful that you and several others have kept it real.

The kind of love that takes over your body, mind, & soul
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Reply #474 posted 05/16/18 4:35pm

Morgaine

LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:

Morgaine said:

I don't think Kirk believed Prince had any opiates at PP. He stated he took all of the meds with him. Remember they were in various bottles, etc scattered throughout PP. I also do not believe Kirk had anything to do with the street meds, either.

Imho, he stuck his neck out for Prince by getting him the meds from Dr S and the dentist.

I don't think Kirk is a bad guy but I do think he was in way over his head.

Kirk may or may not be a bad guy, but he does have eye balls, and if he could walk around looking at prince the last year and not notice there was a serious problem, then Kirk has mental problems. Prince looked scary sick and to not do anything or say anything for fear of losing his job...ya, leaning towards bad guy...it defies logic for anyone to look at him and not know something was very wrong...

I'm not suggesting what he did was right, I'm suggesting he did what he thought was right, without ill intention(s) which is all any of us can do.

Wasn't every single person who argued with Prince fired? How do help someone like that? If you confront them, they fire you and you can't help them.

It reminds me of an interview Lisa Marie did about MJ on Oprah after Michael died. She was talking about how angry she was for so long with the poeple around her Dad - why didn't they do more, how could they just watch, etc. She said she'd finally realized that the problem was MJ's & Elvis' reluctance and denial to change (I am very much paraphrasing).

I'm not going to blame anyone he knew for his death. As far as I can tell Prince took the drugs that killed him. No one was keeping him from seeing a legitimate doctor, he made those decisions.

If you want a person to blame, blame Prince. I love him, but he really messed up.

The kind of love that takes over your body, mind, & soul
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Reply #475 posted 05/16/18 4:40pm

Morgaine

purplerabbithole said:

I agree with a lot of what you said, except that I don't think is image and need to control were his totality. I think they were his shelter. He was neurotic, even he admitted it. Unfortunately, this "shelter" or bubble suffocated him. As for people getting fired over mentioning the drugs, there seems to be some evidence that people did try to help in subtle, non-pushy ways and weren't fired. And NDA's don't hold when a crime is committed. Firings could happen but that would not mean that the person fired could not still "out" him to the press for his drug usage--Prince being unable to successfully sue. I really think confronting him about drugs was complicated by the lack of direct evidence. Hear me out..he showed symptoms and overdosed but unless he was popping pills right in front of them it would be hard to prove in a legal sense. He could very easily make excuses, claim it was medicinal or an accident. It is only the people who would belabor the point who might actually get the truth but those people (of course) would probably be let go for invading his privacy before they would get any confirmation from him.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Thank you for this great summation; especially for the bolded above. Thank God for Prince and the music.

[Edited 5/16/18 16:16pm]

I would add that his image was what so many people (myself included at times) believed was HIM. As a dancer and someone who is shy, I have taken on a persona to dance in front of people and I think most performers do this, including Prince. I am saying that what he presented onstage, in records, and in (most) interviews was his image, not the totality of the man, Prince.

I agree with everything you said, especially about confronting him.

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Reply #476 posted 05/16/18 4:42pm

Krystalkisses

avatar

Morgaine said:



Bodhitheblackdog said:




Morgaine said:


After reading the investigation files, I believe he was in an ongoing state of withdrawal due to the varying ingredients in the street pills that were tested: some with only lidocaine, some with hydrocodone and lidocaine, some with different amounts of Fentanyl, etc.
For someone with constant pain in need of medication this is one of the worst things they can do. He should've had a chronic pain doctor & been on something long acting plus something for break through pain.
It is extremely sad to me, that his pain was treatable but he chose to do it alone, which I believe this had to do with his need to control everything.
As for Kirk, I believe he knew there were issues in the past but did not know about Prince's street meds. I believe he was doing his best to help him and I can't imagine the guilt and pain he feels from his death. I do not think Kirk is heartless, but I am well aware that people did not argue with Prince - it's quite obvious that this was a huge no-no and got many fired.


I believe he knew he was addicted. I believe it began as dependence, but in not allowing others - professionals who know more - to help & treat him, he didn't do himself any favors.
I also believe he began taking meds during the Purple Rain tour after he was injured from the tub falling.


I beleive he used it off and on for years, when it was necessary for him to perform. He was not God.


I believe after his son died, he started again, with the motivator being physical pain (mid 30s, 10+ years of jumping off speakers, etc) but opiates also make mental and emotional pain float away on a nice puffy cloud, which is one of the reasons they are so addicting


He was brilliant. A musical genius who was & always be a huge part of my life.
I do not care if he was addicted, dependent, or killed himself; many think addiction is slow suicide, anyway, and none of it will change my appreciation and love for the music he created.


I would also note there is something to be said for the masses (including myself) believing his image was his totality. I beleive that illusion, combined with his need to control his life and environment snowballed into, ultimately, his death.
Peace.



Thank you for this great summation; especially for the bolded above. Thank God for Prince and the music.



Thank you for yur continuing honesty Bodhi!


I only have time to post occasionally but I've kept on reading through every one of these and am very grateful that you and several others have kept it real.



heart I loved what you had to say as well and agree with all of it .
[Edited 5/16/18 16:43pm]
[Edited 5/16/18 16:44pm]
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Reply #477 posted 05/16/18 4:53pm

Morgaine

purplerabbithole said:

Others might have tried as well (perhaps in subtle or non-pushy ways). there is no way for us to know that. I know Sheila refused to enable and Morris Hayes asked him years ago and got a denial followed by Prince taking his first vacation ever..(1994). I think when he was younger, it was probably easier to hide usage behind eccentricity and isolation. When he was older, it seems to have started to catch up with him.

Morgaine said:

You're (obviously) entitled to your own opinion, but I really do not think Kirk has an opiate problem and/or was trying to make it look like Prince had one. I'm not sure where you come up with that theory, but I don't agree based on what is piblically known right now.

I think he was trying to help Prince the best way he knew how and was way out of his depth. It's an extremely difficult situation to be in. At least he tried - it doens't look like anyone else ever did.

There were others who confronted him, but as far as what is known publically, no one ever took him to see their doctor, called a recovery center, etc.

I'm not sugggesting a medal or brownie points, just another perspective than Kirk is some horrible guy who wanted Prince dead. If new evidence, etc becomes available, my pov could change as well.

It's too bad there weren't more people around who could see him - I think he had that 'something' that tends to blind a lot of people - throw in fame, money, good looks, smart, talented, sense of humor, etc. it can be hard for people to see past it.

Was it Jill or Wendy who had seen him in Australia for the P & M date(s) and said he was surrounded by young people who didn't really know him.

The kind of love that takes over your body, mind, & soul
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Reply #478 posted 05/16/18 5:01pm

Mumio

avatar

Lovejunky said:

This is shady as F...

Did Prince Know that Andrew was coming ?

Did Prince Know that Schulenberg was coming ?

This was never asked in any of the Police interviews...

If Prince didnt know both of them were coming,

Why would it have been arranged for so early in the morning knowing that Prince always slept late ?

When Kirk mentioned to Schulenberg at 8.30am That he was here waiting for Prince to wake up to give him something to take the edge off"

Why would Kirk be expecting Prince to wake up THAT early ???

If Prince did know they were coming, I WOULD ASK THE SAME QUESTION

.Ok so they called it a medical emergency...fine

but it was so well known that Prince was a night owl Why schedule them at THAT time...

The whole thing just STINKS....

and Im so bothered by it all that I vowed not top come back to this thread..yet her I am

AGAIN !



Because Prince supposedly had an appointment to be seeing another doctor that morning, someone who is as yet unnamed. There may have been some coordination that was happening for him to see a doc who was qualified to start treatment with the suboxone that Andrew had brought. Schulenberg was not a drug treatment practitioner and Andrew is not a doctor.




Welcome to "the org", Mumio…they can have you, but I'll have your love in the end nod
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Reply #479 posted 05/16/18 5:09pm

LOVESYMBOLNUMB
ER2

Morgaine said:



LOVESYMBOLNUMBER2 said:


Morgaine said:



I don't think Kirk believed Prince had any opiates at PP. He stated he took all of the meds with him. Remember they were in various bottles, etc scattered throughout PP. I also do not believe Kirk had anything to do with the street meds, either.


Imho, he stuck his neck out for Prince by getting him the meds from Dr S and the dentist.


I don't think Kirk is a bad guy but I do think he was in way over his head.




Kirk may or may not be a bad guy, but he does have eye balls, and if he could walk around looking at prince the last year and not notice there was a serious problem, then Kirk has mental problems. Prince looked scary sick and to not do anything or say anything for fear of losing his job...ya, leaning towards bad guy...it defies logic for anyone to look at him and not know something was very wrong...

I'm not suggesting what he did was right, I'm suggesting he did what he thought was right, without ill intention(s) which is all any of us can do.


Wasn't every single person who argued with Prince fired? How do help someone like that? If you confront them, they fire you and you can't help them.


It reminds me of an interview Lisa Marie did about MJ on Oprah after Michael died. She was talking about how angry she was for so long with the poeple around her Dad - why didn't they do more, how could they just watch, etc. She said she'd finally realized that the problem was MJ's & Elvis' reluctance and denial to change (I am very much paraphrasing).


I'm not going to blame anyone he knew for his death. As far as I can tell Prince took the drugs that killed him. No one was keeping him from seeing a legitimate doctor, he made those decisions.


If you want a person to blame, blame Prince. I love him, but he really messed up.





I just personally don't get it...of course prince is responsible, but everyone talks endlessly about addiction being a disease, but it is literally the only disease where people associated with the sick person get to say...oh well nothing I can do, I might get fired...certainly you may try to help the addict and fail, but if you never try then failure is certain...and one day before death is way too little, way too late. But just my opinion...if he was dying of heart failure and no one helped him, I am sure there would be very few people saying...but what could they have done
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Forums > Prince: Music and More > Prince's death Investigation Discussion - Continued - Part 10