paulludvig said:

Vannormal said:

That video-trick with the white dove passing in the reflection of his glasses is plain silly actually.

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For the rest, I LOVE this video !

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The song IS un-fucking-believably-better than the shit version he put out on The Hits, shame on him for that ! (...to torture us for all this time with such a super bad live version. I never liked Sinéad's version either. The Family's version was the best for now, but also is uncomparible with the real deal.)

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I never noticed Bobby Z standing up while drumming. Cool.

Wendy was soooooo cute.

And she and Brownmark sure knew how to keep up.

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I don't think it's fair that The Revolution isn't charing in this.

They helped make Prince for what he was in most of the people's memories today.

They deserve absolutely much better !!

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THIS is a Prince and The Revolution video of a Prince song.

I even wonder if they were contacted before they relased this...

Why should they have been contacted? Just because they are seen in the same room as him? It's a Prince song.

Nothing to do with the song; it's about the video.

I would not like it if I was in a video of my former employee without being asked.

Although, contractualy, possibly they can't do anything about it (...I have no idea really).

But like I said, they helped him make his image of that important era.

Yes prince did this song basically all by himself.

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(Am I right ? does Eric play on the song ? ...)

Vannormal said:

Vannormal said:

paulludvig said:

Vannormal said: Why should they have been contacted? Just because they are seen in the same room as him? It's a Prince song.

Nothing to do with the song; it's about the video.

I would not like it if I was in a video of my former employee without being asked.

Although, contractualy, possibly they can't do anything about it (...I have no idea really).

But like I said, they helped him make his image of that important era.

Yes prince did this song basically all by himself.

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(Am I right ? does Eric play on the song ? ...)

Eric, Susana, and Paul were all on it... they do not need to be contacted as it was likely considered works for hire.

bonatoc said:

mediumdry said:

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Somehow I doubt it was David Z who made the track so marvelously sparse giving lots of space to the orchestra. Prince had a habit of not using every recorded track for songs.

There we have it, the Prince's zealots common plague:
Prince is such an alien genius that he did it all,
including brooming at the end of each day the thousand sq. ft. of PP.

.
Way to strawman me, bonatoc! It was simply this: Prince would take out instruments in mixes. The difference between Prince's now released version and what's on the album of The Family is so extreme that I don't think the engineers would do it without Prince's approval or involvement.

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As to the rest of your stream of consciousness diatribe.. are you ok? Was it about the date and you had a few drinks? Not sure who it was directed to, but a few things in what you wrote stand out..

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Damn right David Z. mixed Jill Jones and The Family,
he's the sole responsible for "Kiss", what's wrong with you?

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I'm well aware of the story of how Kiss was build from the ground up by David Z. Also of how Prince took back what David build and then added his stuff and then removed bass and some other things in the mix....

Prince called "The Revolution" his Mount Rushmore because he elevated
talented people he had good feelings with to an Oscar, Grammies, Platinum records,
and just two years after that they're making the most beautiful,
in fact the only audible jazz-rock there is.

He made them his peers. You won't go far without a band.

Stop dreaming Prince could do it all by himself.

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I am (and this is a nice surprise) in agreement with paulludvig when he said "Of course he worked hard, but my God was he gifted! The people around him were capable, and Prince whipped them into shape."

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On the other hand, I also agree with the fact that Prince used input from people around him and that that was a big part of how he managed to turn out so much music, by relying on others where he felt he could. Possibly the best examples of this are Clare Fischer and Wendy & Lisa, but the discussions about Party Up and Do Me Baby also make clear that Prince used input (directly or indirectly) from all those around him.

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As to jazz-rock.... I only like the first Madhouse album, which is only Prince, with overdubs added by Eric Leeds afterwards. The band things, like The Flesh sessions and subsequent Madhouse albums, are not nearly on the same level to me. To each their own, I suppose.

This, this video, is Prince's mix, Mr. Somehow I doubt it.
It's less subtle, actually, than David Z., who incidentally is able
to do subtle stuff, like, say, "Violet Blue".
...
The grace of Clare Fischer in The Family's version,
was revealed by David Z. Rivkin, applying a trick Prince teached us all,
the WDC one: you can try any mix you want. See what comes up.
So no bass, no drums.

And David Z. was right, even if it you're going to say "no big feat: after all, it's a quatuor with a sax"

.

I agree that The Family mix is much more subtle. I wish we had that version with Prince vocals (I disagree with you that St Paul is a great singer, his vocals never do much for me. They're serviceable, but don't bring a lot of emotion)

.

I don't know the extend that David Z (or others) had on the mix. I love Violet Blue as well, but I have simply never heard stories about how The Family album came about, specifically talking about mixes in absence of Prince. The stories I did hear basically said: "Prince had the tracks ready, Eric added his sax, Clare Fischer added orchestra, Paul and Susannah added vocals, staying as close as possible to Prince's original vocal lines". If you have more information about the mixing process and other parts, please let me (us) know.

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

Vannormal said:

No she didn't. It's one of her weakest performances I believe. (she made a cover album once, not that great either)

Listen to her album 'The Lion And The Cobra'.

Now these songs are wonderful, pure and absolutely suit her voice and persona in a most original form.

In her version of NC2U she tried (well), but did not reached the absolute quality of her own written songs of that great 1st album. Listen to the song 'Mandinka', and then again to her 'NC2U' cover. She didn't do much to Prince's romantic approach of his own song (imho).

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But like I always say, I could be wrong. I have no truth. I only tell what I feel, probably just like you.

And all different opinion are interesting.

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(just never liked her lame version..)

That's cool. you have a minority opinion, but an opinion non the less.

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Still, one that I completely share. Sinead did a poor reading of what the song was about. And it just doesn't work as well with what she can do as, say, a magnificent song like Troy.

Vannormal said:

kmama07 said:

Vannormal said:

No she didn't. It's one of her weakest performances I believe. (she made a cover album once, not that great either)

Listen to her album 'The Lion And The Cobra'.

Now these songs are wonderful, pure and absolutely suit her voice and persona in a most original form.

In her version of NC2U she tried (well), but did not reached the absolute quality of her own written songs of that great 1st album. Listen to the song 'Mandinka', and then again to her 'NC2U' cover. She didn't do much to Prince's romantic approach of his own song (imho).

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But like I always say, I could be wrong. I have no truth. I only tell what I feel, probably just like you.

And all different opinion are interesting.

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(just never liked her lame version..)

I agree that "The Lion and the Cobra" is a stellar album

it may well be...but one thing is for SURE she is mad and bitter that her career is that song. That song MADE her. Her notoriety begins and ends there. Without that song, there have never been a Pope photo...

Silvertongue7 said:

More than three million views now. Not bad in three days. I mean, I’m solely responsible for a large percentage of those views, but still...

I think bonatoc said they only count you once, somewhere upthread.

Very cool but Sinead took this song to a whole 'nother level. Her version was genius. Prince didn't seem to know what a great song he had when he recorded it. The fact he gave it away should tell you all you need to know.

Of all the versions, including Sinead's I think the released version the Family album is the best. If a Prince vocal version existed of that mix, that would be the ultimate for me. I wouldn't even mind if David Z was asked to contruct it as part of a legacy.

I'm guessing the history go like this:

1. First mixed version, with Prince. The one released this week.

2. Second mixed version - St Paul vocal added (he confirmed he learned it from Version 1)

3. St Paul version is sent to Clare Fisher and orchestration is created.

4. Prince or David Z drop the initial instrumentation for orchestration while mixing the album.

5. Prince re-records live with Rosie Gains in 90's.

6. Prince re-rerords with Mayte in 90's.

I still think the Estate/WB missed a trick releasing this one how they did. It's the jewel in the crown commercially. It should have be tied to an ATWIAD Deluxe, A 'Family Album by Prince' project, or a new 'songs he gave away' compilation like 'Nothing Compares 2 Prince'.

homesquid said:

Very cool but Sinead took this song to a whole 'nother level. Her version was genius. Prince didn't seem to know what a great song he had when he recorded it. The fact he gave it away should tell you all you need to know.

Well I tend to agree because the very minimal aproach of Sineads version works really well. The version that has been released now is fantastic because of Prince's vocal delivery, but to my taste gets crippled by that "hoo hoo hoo" background vocal. It's what kills the Family version for me as well. It sounds so kitsch and it's too prominent to ignore.

zobilamouche said:

homesquid said:

Very cool but Sinead took this song to a whole 'nother level. Her version was genius. Prince didn't seem to know what a great song he had when he recorded it. The fact he gave it away should tell you all you need to know.

Well I tend to agree because the very minimal aproach of Sineads version works really well. The version that has been released now is fantastic because of Prince's vocal delivery, but to my taste gets crippled by that "hoo hoo hoo" background vocal. It's what kills the Family version for me as well. It sounds so kitsch and it's too prominent to ignore.

Agree 100%

It's a really hard song to sing. Especially the hook. You can hear Sinead struggle with a few things here and there on her amazing cover. But young Prince here makes it sound so easy. Just effortless. Both Amazing for different reasons.

The footage and his version of the song were just too beautiful for words... I love his recording more than any other. Sometimes it slips my mind that the first recording of this song was in 1984. I would love to know when he actually wrote the beautiful lyrics.

[Edited 4/25/18 21:00pm]

OnlyNDaUsa said:

databank said:

Mmmmh... Interesting: someone just pointed out to me that the STRINGS are there on that new versions (while absent from the circulating bootleg)

I am sure the strings are on the bootleg as well...sometimes they seem to be lost in the mushiness of the quality but I think they are there and it seems to be the same length and same speed.

At least I can't hear them. There's a synth low in the mix that's made to sound like them, probably some guideline for Clare, but no such things as strings as far as I can tell.

On the other hand there are strings (much louder) on the version streamed by Paul in 2002.

Question:

Were there ever strings on P's mices (plausible based on recording dates, but unconfirmed)?

And if so, were they ever mixed that low or were they originally intended to sound as in Paul's 2002 version (the whole mix is quite different, anyway)?

ever seen anybody with such control over his body movements??????

luvsexy4all said:

ever seen anybody with such control over his body movements??????

Most of the professional dancers I've seen on stage or tape, I guess.

Now when it comes to non-professionals IDK. Michael maybe?

[Edited 4/26/18 23:17pm]

databank said:

luvsexy4all said:

ever seen anybody with such control over his body movements??????

Most of the professional dancers I've seen on stage or tape, I guess.

Now when it comes to non-professionals IDK. Michael maybe?

[Edited 4/26/18 23:17pm]

Yeah - I see a person who's learning how to dance and who is swift at adjusting and adapting to what's occurring. All in the eye of the beholder, I know. It's beautiful to watch.

zobilamouche said:

homesquid said:

Very cool but Sinead took this song to a whole 'nother level. Her version was genius. Prince didn't seem to know what a great song he had when he recorded it. The fact he gave it away should tell you all you need to know.

Well I tend to agree because the very minimal aproach of Sineads version works really well. The version that has been released now is fantastic because of Prince's vocal delivery, but to my taste gets crippled by that "hoo hoo hoo" background vocal. It's what kills the Family version for me as well. It sounds so kitsch and it's too prominent to ignore.

Remember the minimalism Nellee Hopper uses (bland backbeat, cheap synth sounding kinda-dead strings quartet)
is all Prince's. Pop never sounded that emotionally naked before "When Doves Cry" came.
It's a 1984 cover by other artists influenced by "When Doves Cry", "Kiss", and "Sign O‘ The Times".

I would go as far to say that all the Trip-hop movement was born from "Sign O‘ The Times", "Crystall Ball", and other 86 outtakes, which have always circulated among top musicians and producers. "1999" influenced the Chicago House scene, so did the bootlegs, the "Erotic City" mass underground phenomenon, the french touch, Daft Punk... Prince did not invent minimalism, but he proved you could nail #1 hits with it. And Sinéad's version remembered him of his own minimalistic tricks, so he went back to them on "Cream".

In defense of the whoo-whoo, I would say they're much more rock'n'roll than the boring bland strings from Hopper.
It reveals the Buddy Holly and Fats Domino origin of the song. As usual for Prince in the eighties, this is a fifties song, a jukebox song for the heartbeark hotels jukeboxes. Elvis has tons of "teddy bears" and shit. Still, it's what makes it truly romantic, the little plead.The adournment. The backing vocals, questions and answers, à la Four Tops.
Except Prince doesn't ask shit, he just contemplates the broken vase, and the sobbing seraphins go "Wow,wow-wow-wow, wow-whoo-hoa", all empathic.

Sinéad's controlled shrieks are feelings pornography.
"Here are my tears and my naked skull and my vocal cord drowning in saliva, what more do you want from me my love?"
She yells the damn thing, ends it in a whisper. Fine vocal trick, and the lyrics are universal enough for her to embody the pain,
but still it whines.

A sax is more suited to something that is more melancholic than nostalgic.
There's a peace, like in "Purple Rain", a sad and strong acceptance knowing the story won't mend, the two won't come back together.
In Sinéad version, this is cause for perpetual drama atop an Irish cliff.
How fatiguing.

The drummer and strings sound like they just buried your Grandma,
the whole thing sounds dead, people like this shit.

They love to revel in their own sadness, that romantic depiction of their pains.
I don't think Prince, even at its corniest, was sounding that defeated by life accidents.
I'm not saying there's no sadness in Prince's work, but when there is, it surely doen't sound
like some student's journal that choses the "all the flowers that you planted" line as her year's slogan.
With dotted hearts and shit.

Prince stands stall in front of adversity.
His sadness has always this kind of redemption behind it.
On Sinéad's version, the last minute of dead synth and strings repeating their loooong chords is excruciating.
No wonder the video director thought the song was about a burial, but too late, it was shot.

[Edited 4/27/18 13:58pm]

OnlyNDaUsa said:

kmama07 said:

Vannormal said: I agree that "The Lion and the Cobra" is a stellar album

it may well be...but one thing is for SURE she is mad and bitter that her career is that song. That song MADE her. Her notoriety begins and ends there. Without that song, there have never been a Pope photo...

That song put her on the map for the big audience in the USA, yes. She already had her position overher in Europe and Asia before NC2U.

-

She isn't bitter. She's just... well... bizarre and honest, and confused too.

Dwelling from religion to lesbianism and a big turn around all this, with marriage, a child and a divorse, etc...

I like her a lot. I like artists like this. She's a bit nuts and wonderful. Perfect !

I never liked normal artists anyway.

And by the way, it is not because a song hits the charts or number 1 that it is a good song, or good cover. Mind that. Lot's of popular N°1 hit songs are pure;.. well, shite.

Just sayin': good music isn't always popular. Purple Peace !

.

[Edited 4/27/18 9:54am]

databank said:

luvsexy4all said:

ever seen anybody with such control over his body movements??????

Most of the professional dancers I've seen on stage or tape, I guess.

Now when it comes to non-professionals IDK. Michael maybe?

[Edited 4/26/18 23:17pm]

im not a micheal watcher ...but i doubt he's as fluid

luvsexy4all said:

databank said:

Most of the professional dancers I've seen on stage or tape, I guess.

Now when it comes to non-professionals IDK. Michael maybe?

[Edited 4/26/18 23:17pm]

im not a micheal watcher ...but i doubt he's as fluid

No, he's as fluid. There's the Spike Lee joint on "Bad", with some camcorder takes into Michael's hotel room in London, rehearsing for the "Bad" video. They're impressive. On an athletic level, Prince is the best dancer, and tries everything. Michael perfected the music-hall classics, but then hit a wall. I'm not a fan of his latter robotic trips. I like Michael supple.

So cool that it's gotten over 3.8 million views in a weeks time! I think that is good considering some of the rest of his music has shown up on Youtube a little more recently and has taken a while to grow.

As far as the dancing, I love his because he just went with the flow and wasn't so overly choreographed. In the "Question of U" concert footage from the Nude tour, it was beautiful to see him go from playing the guitar on top of the piano to doing a little ballet, so beautiful and elegant with such ease. Not sure if he ever had any professional dance training at all though. I don't think he needed it.

Missmusicluver72 said:

So cool that it's gotten over 3.8 million views in a weeks time! I think that is good considering some of the rest of his music has shown up on Youtube a little more recently and has taken a while to grow.

As far as the dancing, I love his because he just went with the flow and wasn't so overly choreographed. In the "Question of U" concert footage from the Nude tour, it was beautiful to see him go from playing the guitar on top of the piano to doing a little ballet, so beautiful and elegant with such ease. Not sure if he ever had any professional dance training at all though. I don't think he needed it.

The Nude Tour was heavy on the choreography.

I'm pretty sure Prince took dance classes at some point.
After all, he took voice classes, the man who recorded "For You".
So it's probable he took some, during the Purple Rain pre-shootings?

I mean, I see what you mean, the talent is there, and I'm sure he did not take that much lessons, and if he didn't, there is sure a lot of watching and replicating the great dancers of the past underneath the cream. Splits were stuff long forgotten, and in fact no pop male star has dared to bring the splits back on stage since him.

bonatoc said:

Missmusicluver72 said:

So cool that it's gotten over 3.8 million views in a weeks time! I think that is good considering some of the rest of his music has shown up on Youtube a little more recently and has taken a while to grow.

As far as the dancing, I love his because he just went with the flow and wasn't so overly choreographed. In the "Question of U" concert footage from the Nude tour, it was beautiful to see him go from playing the guitar on top of the piano to doing a little ballet, so beautiful and elegant with such ease. Not sure if he ever had any professional dance training at all though. I don't think he needed it.

The Nude Tour was heavy on the choreography.

I'm pretty sure Prince took dance classes at some point.
After all, he took voice classes, the man who recorded "For You".
So it's probable he took some, during the Purple Rain pre-shootings?

I mean, I see what you mean, the talent is there, and I'm sure he did not take that much lessons, and if he didn't, there is sure a lot of watching and replicating the great dancers of the past underneath the cream. Splits were stuff long forgotten, and in fact no pop male star has dared to bring the splits back on stage since him.

Yeah, so true, now when I think about it. Seems like more of them were always trying to copy MJ instead.

[Edited 4/27/18 17:54pm]

bonatoc said:

I'm pretty sure Prince took dance classes at some point.
After all, he took voice classes, the man who recorded "For You".
So it's probable he took some, during the Purple Rain pre-shootings?

According to Wendy and Lisa in the Purple Rain special features, the whole Revolution (and the Time?) had to! Lisa even made a joke about "jazz hands!"