We know to a ghat's ass degree what Prince did in the studio from around 1982 though 1990 (Thanks Piers and Duane!)...but very little is known about what was going on before that...

As an example, if you look at The Vault recording by year...we see all the stuff he was doing in 1986...something like 60+ different titles!!! But 1980 is like 20 titles... WHERE'S THE REST?? Did Prince just become more prolific as the 80s marched on?? I don't think so...

[Edited 3/23/18 8:17am]

he said in an 1980/1? interview (one of the 2 radio interviews in UK/Europe) that he did not record very much extra music. But we know he had by then done quite few...but not near as many as he did post 83....

OperatingThetan said:

The largest quantity is likely the later years. Morris Hayes has gone on the record to state that ten albums of new material were recorded between 2010-14 alone.

Oh, how I pray we will get to hear these...

purplethunder3121 said:

OperatingThetan said:

The largest quantity is likely the later years. Morris Hayes has gone on the record to state that ten albums of new material were recorded between 2010-14 alone.

Oh, how I pray we will get to hear these... .....metoo.....rather hear the latter day stuff than the old stuff

He was doing 300+ songs a year during the mid 80s (according to susan rogers) so there's every chance of that enormous amount just before.

luvsexy4all said:

purplethunder3121 said:

Oh, how I pray we will get to hear these... .....metoo.....rather hear the latter day stuff than the old stuff

I want to hear all of it...

fortuneandserendipity said:

He was doing 300+ songs a year during the mid 80s (according to susan rogers)

.

No way she ever said such a thing. It's impossible. He was also touring, had plenty of nights where he didn't go to the studio, etc. Go read Duane Tudahl's book and you'll notice that he sometimes spent days on the same song. Sure, the PR era was special and arguably he didn't spend as much time in later years on finessing his recordings, but to equate 1 day = 1 song is just nonsense. He also spent a lot of time on making videos and movies, etc.

Strive said:

I don't think so. He was really careless with tapes until the vault concept was introduced. Like think of that tape he gave Dez. "Prince originally gave me the cassette in late 1978 because he wanted me to listen to a record he had recorded on side A (a female-fronted funk band whose name I don't remember now). Sometime during the next year or so, I used the A side to record some scratch bass and guitar parts for songs I was going to be recording for a rock/power pop demo I was doing, recording over the original content (you can still hear a snippet of the funk record at the end of the side). On side B, Prince had his work versions of 6 songs, which I left intact for, at that time, unknown reasons (obviously, we now know it preserved a piece of musical history)." How many demo tapes were recycled in a similar fashion? And I also wonder how precious he was with his later work since that one producer walked with masters, the story from second ex-wife about him deleting things he wrote for her and the story where Prince told that photographer to delete her work (which ended up being the art for ART OFFICIAL AGE after she rushed to show him the results) [Edited 3/23/18 13:07pm]

Here Dez seems to be talking about regular cassettes, on which Prince copied final or in-progress mixes from the multitracks (as documented extensively by Duane in his book), and from which most of our bootlegs come from.

.

It is possible, at least that's my understanding after reading Duane's book, that some of those cassettes were/are the only trace left of certain in-progress versions of certain songs, before Prince would temper with the multi-track while reworking the song. In that case it may mean some versions will be lost if the cassettes have not been preserved in the PP vault, the WB vault or leaked. This seems to put a huge responsibility on those associates and "elite" traders who possess cassettes or copies of such cassettes, because it is very possible some of them possess the only existing copy of certain versions of certain tracks, and at some point they're going to have to start wondering if they're willing to let this material disappear after they die, leak it or share copies with the estate for preservation (the estate could actually launch such a program, by asking associates and traders to turn in cassettes and digital files).

.

Those cassettes/files, however, are different material than multitracks and masters, which are 2 different thinqs (most unreleased material never reached the mastering phase).

.

According to various witnesses, certain multitracks have been damaged beyond repair or purposedly destroyed by Prince, and it's not unthinkable some may have been lost or erased by accident, particularly before Susan gathered everything and began the vault concept. But in theory at least, most multitracks remain in the vault and that cassette story by Dez is entirely unrelated to the multitrack's fate.

.

We can speculate all we want, there's little we can know about the actual amount of material available and its condition until the vault has been properly inventoried and the results have been mùade public. Until then, we can only cross fingers.

databank said:

Strive said:

I don't think so. He was really careless with tapes until the vault concept was introduced. Like think of that tape he gave Dez. "Prince originally gave me the cassette in late 1978 because he wanted me to listen to a record he had recorded on side A (a female-fronted funk band whose name I don't remember now). Sometime during the next year or so, I used the A side to record some scratch bass and guitar parts for songs I was going to be recording for a rock/power pop demo I was doing, recording over the original content (you can still hear a snippet of the funk record at the end of the side). On side B, Prince had his work versions of 6 songs, which I left intact for, at that time, unknown reasons (obviously, we now know it preserved a piece of musical history)." How many demo tapes were recycled in a similar fashion? And I also wonder how precious he was with his later work since that one producer walked with masters, the story from second ex-wife about him deleting things he wrote for her and the story where Prince told that photographer to delete her work (which ended up being the art for ART OFFICIAL AGE after she rushed to show him the results) [Edited 3/23/18 13:07pm]

Here Dez seems to be talking about regular cassettes, on which Prince copied final or in-progress mixes from the multitracks (as documented extensively by Duane in his book), and from which most of our bootlegs come from.

.

It is possible, at least that's my understanding after reading Duane's book, that some of those cassettes were/are the only trace left of certain in-progress versions of certain songs, before Prince would temper with the multi-track while reworking the song. In that case it may mean some versions will be lost if the cassettes have not been preserved in the PP vault, the WB vault or leaked. This seems to put a huge responsibility on those associates and "elite" traders who possess cassettes or copies of such cassettes, because it is very possible some of them possess the only existing copy of certain versions of certain tracks, and at some point they're going to have to start wondering if they're willing to let this material disappear after they die, leak it or share copies with the estate for preservation (the estate could actually launch such a program, by asking associates and traders to turn in cassettes and digital files).

.

Those cassettes/files, however, are different material than multitracks and masters, which are 2 different thinqs (most unreleased material never reached the mastering phase).

.

According to various witnesses, certain multitracks have been damaged beyond repair or purposedly destroyed by Prince, and it's not unthinkable some may have been lost or erased by accident, particularly before Susan gathered everything and began the vault concept. But in theory at least, most multitracks remain in the vault and that cassette story by Dez is entirely unrelated to the multitrack's fate.

.

We can speculate all we want, there's little we can know about the actual amount of material available and its condition until the vault has been properly inventoried and the results have been mùade public. Until then, we can only cross fingers.

Great resume & probabilities about The unreleased Material from this era preserved in the Vault or not !

BartVanHemelen said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

He was doing 300+ songs a year during the mid 80s (according to susan rogers)

.

No way she ever said such a thing. It's impossible. He was also touring, had plenty of nights where he didn't go to the studio, etc. Go read Duane Tudahl's book and you'll notice that he sometimes spent days on the same song. Sure, the PR era was special and arguably he didn't spend as much time in later years on finessing his recordings, but to equate 1 day = 1 song is just nonsense. He also spent a lot of time on making videos and movies, etc.

Listen to the long interview she did post April 2016. She absolutely did say that. She said, we completed a song a day nearly every day of the year - that is to say mixed and completed with her assistance 83-88. You're also aware 21 waking hours is easily enough to lay down tracks for a song if someone has a savant ability to hear all the music at once, as well as record drums or bass first whilst not guessing? No point comparing prince to any of his contemporaries, when none of them have done such a thing. Prince was different.

Sure, U Got the Look may have taken a lot of work to get right, with tempo and key decisions making him founder. But songs like that were not the norm.

fortuneandserendipity said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

No way she ever said such a thing. It's impossible. He was also touring, had plenty of nights where he didn't go to the studio, etc. Go read Duane Tudahl's book and you'll notice that he sometimes spent days on the same song. Sure, the PR era was special and arguably he didn't spend as much time in later years on finessing his recordings, but to equate 1 day = 1 song is just nonsense. He also spent a lot of time on making videos and movies, etc.

Listen to the long interview she did post April 2016. She absolutely did say that. She said, we completed a song a day nearly every day of the year - that is to say mixed and completed with her assistance 83-88.

.

Go read Duane Tudahl's book and count the songs. Nowhere near 300/year. Sure, he did far more work on PR's songs than usual, but in the end there's also concerts and time spent of videos and films, rehearsals, soundchecks, parties, going out, travel time etc.

.

You don't even link to the interview. You don't quote her exact words. You seem to imagine Prince spent each and every day in a recording studio and emerged with a new song each time, and that's simply not true.

purplethunder3121 said:

BartVanHemelen said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Listen to the long interview she did post April 2016. She absolutely did say that. She said, we completed a song a day nearly every day of the year - that is to say mixed and completed with her assistance 83-88.

.

Go read Duane Tudahl's book and count the songs. Nowhere near 300/year. Sure, he did far more work on PR's songs than usual, but in the end there's also concerts and time spent of videos and films, rehearsals, soundchecks, parties, going out, travel time etc.

.

You don't even link to the interview. You don't quote her exact words. You seem to imagine Prince spent each and every day in a recording studio and emerged with a new song each time, and that's simply not true.

Sorry but you must be an idiot if you think Duane Tudahl's book or anyone else's is going to shed all the light on every song Prince ever recorded. Here's a clue: his information isn't first hand. Susan Rogers on the other hand was there. So she has a much better idea of what Prince was doing than you or anyone's biographical research. You think the only songs Prince recorded are ones officially documented? That's not how it works, I'm afraid. Prince lived quite private for someone so widely known.

As for linking to the interview. Haha I like that, like you disbelieve? You know she's done several interviews, and of two that I've heard she mentioned said fact. But I tell you what, in due course I will post a good link. It matters not the touring P did, or the rehearsals, or the videos, films, or soundchecks. Prince could work 24, 48 hrs somietimes without sleep. There was always enough time to record. And finally, Prince didn't need a recording studio to record. Which, if you read the biographies you would realise. There was a recording facility on the truck while he was touring. After all, there's a reason why there are engineering credits for his albums not exclusively attributed to him.

Prince did an interview with Mojo in 86 (I think the day after the birthday show) and IIRC he mentioned a specific number of unrelated sounds.... 300 something...

fortuneandserendipity said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Go read Duane Tudahl's book and count the songs. Nowhere near 300/year. Sure, he did far more work on PR's songs than usual, but in the end there's also concerts and time spent of videos and films, rehearsals, soundchecks, parties, going out, travel time etc.

.

You don't even link to the interview. You don't quote her exact words. You seem to imagine Prince spent each and every day in a recording studio and emerged with a new song each time, and that's simply not true.

Sorry but you must be an idiot if you think Duane Tudahl's book or anyone else's is going to shed all the light on every song Prince ever recorded. Here's a clue: his information isn't first hand.

.

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE. He attempted to interview just about everybody who shared a studio with P back then, INCLUDING SUSAN ROGERS.

.

As for linking to the interview. Haha I like that, like you disbelieve? You know she's done several interviews, and of two that I've heard she mentioned said fact.

.

Yet you still can't link to them or even provide the exact relevant quote. Gotcha: you made it all up and now you're desperately backpedalling.

.

But I tell you what, in due course I will post a good link. It matters not the touring P did, or the rehearsals, or the videos, films, or soundchecks. Prince could work 24, 48 hrs somietimes without sleep. There was always enough time to record. And finally, Prince didn't need a recording studio to record. Which, if you read the biographies you would realise. There was a recording facility on the truck while he was touring. After all, there's a reason why there are engineering credits for his albums not exclusively attributed to him.

.

Yet again a whole lot of completely useless bullshit instead of the exact quote. Which you damn well knows does not exist. Just admit you were wrong.

.

Go on, tell us how Duane Tudahl somehow missed HUNDREDS of songs while having access to numerous witnesses and even the actual studio documentation and documentation from Warners' vault etc., while documenting Prince's movements on an almost day-by-day basis.

I think Duane is being very straightforward when it comes to admitting that it's sometimes hard to know exactly what was done when because different sources are contradictory or uncertain, and that it can be tough to trace what Prince recorded when he was recording alone at home or at the Warehouse, because contrarily to Sunset Sound, there's no paperwork. And certainly books similar to this one will be more challenging to write when it comes to before/after the Sunset Sound era.

.

However, at least when it comes to the present book (83-84), there's no way in the world dozens, let alone hundreds of songs can have been recorded without anyone being able to report/document the sessions taking place. I'd say it's possible maybe a dozen proper studio tracks or so might have slipped thru the cracks for those 2 years, + a certain amount of things being developped (but not properly tracked) during solo piano or solo studio jam sessions such as the SITW/Katrina/Lisa jam that recently surfaced. But the impossibility to track those things does not make Duane and Per's research any less remarkable, and when you look at the methodology used by Duane and all the sources involved, it sounds highly unlikely that there are more than a few undocumented studio tracks remaining for the years 83-84.

databank said:

according to Prince as of June 8th, 1986 he had 320 songs in the vault.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

NorthC said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

according to Prince as of June 8th, 1986 he had 320 songs in the vault.

And if he started recording in 1976, that's 32 unreleased songs a year. On average.

but by most accounts, they did not start to collect them until sometime after the 1999 tour ended.

soladeo1 said:

NorthC said:

soladeo1 said:

We know to a ghat's ass degree what Prince did in the studio from around 1982 though 1990 (Thanks Piers and Duane!)...but very little is known about what was going on before that...

As an example, if you look at The Vault recording by year...we see all the stuff he was doing in 1986...something like 60+ different titles!!! But 1980 is like 20 titles... WHERE'S THE REST?? Did Prince just become more prolific as the 80s marched on?? I don't think so...

[Edited 3/23/18 8:17am]

I do. Nobody is born as a great songwriter. It's something you need to learn. So it's quite likely that Prince became more prolific as a songwriter as he grew and learned his trade and got better at it. A few years ago, Bob Dylan recieved the "MusicCares Person of the Year" award where he had a speech in which he basically said: if you had played these old folks songs as much as I have, you could have written them too. So his point was: practice makes perfect. Songs don't come falling out of the sky to a genius by some divine inspiration. It takes work, listening, practicing and the better you get, the more songs (or books of plays or whatever) you will write.

Well, that's not what some artists claim Mivhael Jackson, Prince and Stevie Wonder would say otherwise.

databank said:

Strive said:

databank said:

Here Dez seems to be talking about regular cassettes, on which Prince copied final or in-progress mixes from the multitracks (as documented extensively by Duane in his book), and from which most of our bootlegs come from.

.

It is possible, at least that's my understanding after reading Duane's book, that some of those cassettes were/are the only trace left of certain in-progress versions of certain songs, before Prince would temper with the multi-track while reworking the song. In that case it may mean some versions will be lost if the cassettes have not been preserved in the PP vault, the WB vault or leaked. This seems to put a huge responsibility on those associates and "elite" traders who possess cassettes or copies of such cassettes, because it is very possible some of them possess the only existing copy of certain versions of certain tracks, and at some point they're going to have to start wondering if they're willing to let this material disappear after they die, leak it or share copies with the estate for preservation (the estate could actually launch such a program, by asking associates and traders to turn in cassettes and digital files).

.

Those cassettes/files, however, are different material than multitracks and masters, which are 2 different thinqs (most unreleased material never reached the mastering phase).

.

According to various witnesses, certain multitracks have been damaged beyond repair or purposedly destroyed by Prince, and it's not unthinkable some may have been lost or erased by accident, particularly before Susan gathered everything and began the vault concept. But in theory at least, most multitracks remain in the vault and that cassette story by Dez is entirely unrelated to the multitrack's fate.

.

We can speculate all we want, there's little we can know about the actual amount of material available and its condition until the vault has been properly inventoried and the results have been mùade public. Until then, we can only cross fingers.

There's some big flaws with your theory. 1) It's 1978. Prince doesn't have free reign of the studio yet and studio time is expensive. 2) The tape description points to it being a demo Prince did on a tape recorder ala those three versions of Sister that leaked out this year. All three just Prince and a guitar trying to workshop out the song. 3) According to Dez, Prince gave him the tape so he could check out a girl funk band. It wasn't 'hey, check out this demo tape I put together' or 'hey check out what I did in the studio', he taped over side A which implies that he considered side B expendable. And Dez also recorded over side A so that seemed to point to the general culture at the time of reusing tapes. Now we know that Dez saved a piece of music history but, in 78, it was just kids messing around while trying to get their careers off the ground. How many 20 year olds do you know that think that far into the future? (Although that's an interesting question for people who know more about Prince's early career. When did he finally get free reign of the studio? We know that Warner gave him open blocks in 83 and there was the home studio and the warehouse they converted. How early did he get the regulator taken off? Wasn't the Kiowa Trail Home Studio put together in 81?) [Edited 3/27/18 19:28pm]

Prince had unlimited access to some studio or at least some rudimentary recording equipment for most of his adult life.

.

He was more or less free to record at will a Moonsound in 1976, then at Sound 80 in 1977, and I believe his first home studio was the 8-track studio at France Avenue, from Summer 1978 onwards. From that point-on, he always had a home studio.

.

You are making a good point, though: none of this excludes the possibility that, up until a certain point, he'd record sketches and ideas on a regular tape recorder. In that case it's quite likely that some of those documents have been erased or lost out of neglect.

.

However, there is nothing in Dez' statement that can allow us to know whether those specific recordings were straight to cassette or from a multi-track, nor if they were the only existing copy.

.

Yet you still can't link to them or even provide the exact relevant quote. Gotcha: you made it all up and now you're desperately backpedalling.

.

fortuneandserendipity said:

But I tell you what, in due course I will post a good link. It matters not the touring P did, or the rehearsals, or the videos, films, or soundchecks. Prince could work 24, 48 hrs somietimes without sleep. There was always enough time to record. And finally, Prince didn't need a recording studio to record. Which, if you read the biographies you would realise. There was a recording facility on the truck while he was touring. After all, there's a reason why there are engineering credits for his albums not exclusively attributed to him.

.

Yet again a whole lot of completely useless bullshit instead of the exact quote. Which you damn well knows does not exist. Just admit you were wrong.

.

Go on, tell us how Duane Tudahl somehow missed HUNDREDS of songs while having access to numerous witnesses and even the actual studio documentation and documentation from Warners' vault etc., while documenting Prince's movements on an almost day-by-day basis.

soladeo1 said:

I think Duane’s investigation of Prince’s output circa 1983-84 is rock solid. I don’t think very much, if anything, is missed during this time. But assuming that Prince was his typical manic workaholic self in 1979-82 it would appear that there’s a vast amount of tunes not known, right???

.

There's other things to consider: his access to both technology and people capable of assisting him to work quickly. I have the impression that this was not as much the case in earlier years.

.

Are there unknown songs from that era? Sure. But not dozens or even hundreds.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

according to Prince as of June 8th, 1986 he had 320 songs in the vault.

.

That seems to be a wildly inflated number. Considering that I even doubt Magnoli's claim of having received 100 outtakes for consideration for PR -- a claim that has never been substantiated, with Duane Tudahl referring to one claim of Prince having about 80 unreleased songs as the closest to that number -- then he would have recorded a vast amount of music between mid-1983 and mid-1986, on average 75 or so songs per year. Considering all of the other things he did in that time (including making two movies and several months of touring) and considering what has been documented, I very much doubt it is even possible Prince recorded that many unreleased songs.