laurarichardson said:

Menes said:

Don't argue wth her. She know how to "count money".

It is just great

.

Laura -- Do you now realize that Addiction is a illness?

Oh I know it's not legal. I'm saying in my opinion, he should not be prosecuted. Not everyone who breaks the letter of every law gets prosecuted (here's an article about prosecutorial discretion.) If he were prosecuted and convicted, I think he should get very minor penalty (small fine or similar).

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All the evidence is that Andrew wasn't carrying those drugs to, say, sell them to addicted people for profit. And the drugs were never actually administered by anyone. The actual damage to society here is really, really small. Ant-drug resources would be so much better used to find large-scale drug dealers (and to get treatment to people who need it).

cloveringold85 said:

disch said:

Actually, I don't think everyone who violates current drug laws should be arrested or prosecuted. I think our drug laws have profound racial bias and have led to the mass incarceration problem which has destroyed for families and lives than it has helped. I think the idea that we are going to arrest and imprison our way out of this drug crisis is unrealistic, given that that "drug war" approach has never worked before.

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Where I live, recreationa marijuana is illegal, but people openly smoke it on the streets, often with no police interference or maybe just a verbal warning. You know why? Because it's a waste of police resources. Kind of like how every jaywalker is not handed a ticket.

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Andrew was carrying those legal medications with the intent to help Prince. They were never used. Prince, by all assumptions, bought illegal drugs and in doing so supported drug cartels and trafficking. By that measure, Prince's crime was worse, if you view everything through a lens of who should be arrested and how long they should be imprisoned.

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Disch: With all due respect, what Andrew did was not legal, by any means. He carried controlled substances over several state lines without a license (he's a med student). I know you already know this, but pointing that out to other's who are just joining.

disch said:

Oh I know it's not legal. I'm saying in my opinion, he should not be prosecuted. Not everyone who breaks the letter of every law gets prosecuted (here's an article about prosecutorial discretion.) If he were prosecuted and convicted, I think he should get very minor penalty (small fine or similar).

-

All the evidence is that Andrew wasn't carrying those drugs to, say, sell them to addicted people for profit. And the drugs were never actually administered by anyone. The actual damage to society here is really, really small. Ant-drug resources would be so much better used to find large-scale drug dealers (and to get treatment to people who need it).

cloveringold85 said:

.

Disch: With all due respect, what Andrew did was not legal, by any means. He carried controlled substances over several state lines without a license (he's a med student). I know you already know this, but pointing that out to other's who are just joining.

.

Andrew claims he wasn't going to give the drugs to Prince (so, why did he have them at all?). I'm sure Dr. Schulemberg could have easily gotten the same medications to treat Prince. Andrew made the 911 Call, so he has indemnity.

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I would think that if he or the docs did anything illegal, they would have been charged by now. I mean, if you are I committed a crime today, the police aren't gonna wait for 2-years to slap the handcuffs on. I'm joking, but you see my point.

cloveringold85 said:

Dr. S did not have the training to give the drugs. So who was going to administer them? I guess more laws were going to be broken. How would they know what Prince had taken the night before? Prince was already dead when he made the 911 call so how he as in helping? You realize that the case is still open and Andrew would be looking at Fed time so yes he could still charged.

The plan was obviously to give Prince those drugs, whether Andrew handed them to him or another doctor did. But is that the worst thing? The main drug was suboxone, which is recommended by many medical pros to ease withdrawal from opioids.

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I think Andrew's intentions were to help, and honestly, getting Prince into a suboxone withdrawal treatment would likely have helped him. Andrew's dad would have been there on the 22nd, per reports, and he would have taken over the treatment plan directly then (I'm sure he would have been available by phone etc on the 21st as well).

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But unfortunately, it was all moot, since Prince was likely dead by the time Andrew's plane touched down.

cloveringold85 said:

disch said:

Oh I know it's not legal. I'm saying in my opinion, he should not be prosecuted. Not everyone who breaks the letter of every law gets prosecuted (here's an article about prosecutorial discretion.) If he were prosecuted and convicted, I think he should get very minor penalty (small fine or similar).

-

All the evidence is that Andrew wasn't carrying those drugs to, say, sell them to addicted people for profit. And the drugs were never actually administered by anyone. The actual damage to society here is really, really small. Ant-drug resources would be so much better used to find large-scale drug dealers (and to get treatment to people who need it).

.

Andrew claims he wasn't going to give the drugs to Prince (so, why did he have them at all?). I'm sure Dr. Schulemberg could have easily gotten the same medications to treat Prince. Andrew made the 911 Call, so he has indemnity.

.

I would think that if he or the docs did anything illegal, they would have been charged by now. I mean, if you are I committed a crime today, the police aren't gonna wait for 2-years to slap the handcuffs on. I'm joking, but you see my point.

laurarichardson said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Andrew claims he wasn't going to give the drugs to Prince (so, why did he have them at all?). I'm sure Dr. Schulemberg could have easily gotten the same medications to treat Prince. Andrew made the 911 Call, so he has indemnity.

.

I would think that if he or the docs did anything illegal, they would have been charged by now. I mean, if you are I committed a crime today, the police aren't gonna wait for 2-years to slap the handcuffs on. I'm joking, but you see my point.

Dr. S did not have the training to give the drugs. So who was going to administer them? I guess more laws were going to be broken. How would they know what Prince had taken the night before? Prince was already dead when he made the 911 call so how he as in helping? You realize that the case is still open and Andrew would be looking at Fed time so yes he could still charged.

Who said it was Dr. S who was going to be administring the drugs?

i don't undersand the obsession with what laws were broken during an attempt to save Prince's life. We'll never know, since Prince was dead before any of this happened (according to Laura, he had successfully committed suicide), but if this could have saved his life, I don't care what laws were broken. Saving life is more important.

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Suboxone is a perfectly legitimate opioid-withdrawal drug, and the plan for its use in this situation came from Dr. K, who is a legitimatly licensed doctor. It's not like this was some weird voodoo experiment or something.

PennyPurple said:

laurarichardson said:

cloveringold85 said: Dr. S did not have the training to give the drugs. So who was going to administer them? I guess more laws were going to be broken. How would they know what Prince had taken the night before? Prince was already dead when he made the 911 call so how he as in helping? You realize that the case is still open and Andrew would be looking at Fed time so yes he could still charged.

Who said it was Dr. S who was going to be administring the drugs?

laurarichardson said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Andrew claims he wasn't going to give the drugs to Prince (so, why did he have them at all?). I'm sure Dr. Schulemberg could have easily gotten the same medications to treat Prince. Andrew made the 911 Call, so he has indemnity.

.

I would think that if he or the docs did anything illegal, they would have been charged by now. I mean, if you are I committed a crime today, the police aren't gonna wait for 2-years to slap the handcuffs on. I'm joking, but you see my point.

Dr. S did not have the training to give the drugs. So who was going to administer them? I guess more laws were going to be broken. How would they know what Prince had taken the night before? Prince was already dead when he made the 911 call so how he as in helping? You realize that the case is still open and Andrew would be looking at Fed time so yes he could still charged.

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I have no idea what they were planning to do to help Prince. You're right -- how would they know what Prince had ingested within a 12-24 hour period?

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I think most people want to see someone charged or slapped with a fine. If that happens, I think we will have people dancing in the street, out in front of PP.

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Kirk says "its our problem".

disch said:

The plan was obviously to give Prince those drugs, whether Andrew handed them to him or another doctor did. But is that the worst thing? The main drug was suboxone, which is recommended by many medical pros to ease withdrawal from opioids.

-

I think Andrew's intentions were to help, and honestly, getting Prince into a suboxone withdrawal treatment would likely have helped him. Andrew's dad would have been there on the 22nd, per reports, and he would have taken over the treatment plan directly then (I'm sure he would have been available by phone etc on the 21st as well).

-

But unfortunately, it was all moot, since Prince was likely dead by the time Andrew's plane touched down.

cloveringold85 said:

.

Andrew claims he wasn't going to give the drugs to Prince (so, why did he have them at all?). I'm sure Dr. Schulemberg could have easily gotten the same medications to treat Prince. Andrew made the 911 Call, so he has indemnity.

.

I would think that if he or the docs did anything illegal, they would have been charged by now. I mean, if you are I committed a crime today, the police aren't gonna wait for 2-years to slap the handcuffs on. I'm joking, but you see my point.

.

When Andrew stated that he wasn't going to administer those drugs to Prince, I was eye-rollin and side-eyeing like crazy!!

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I'm sure Andrew wanted to help, but they didn't follow proper procedures in getting Prince stablized for treatment. Where I come from, we call it "half ass".

What are the proper protocols for getting him stabilized?

cloveringold85 said:

disch said:

The plan was obviously to give Prince those drugs, whether Andrew handed them to him or another doctor did. But is that the worst thing? The main drug was suboxone, which is recommended by many medical pros to ease withdrawal from opioids.

-

I think Andrew's intentions were to help, and honestly, getting Prince into a suboxone withdrawal treatment would likely have helped him. Andrew's dad would have been there on the 22nd, per reports, and he would have taken over the treatment plan directly then (I'm sure he would have been available by phone etc on the 21st as well).

-

But unfortunately, it was all moot, since Prince was likely dead by the time Andrew's plane touched down.

.

When Andrew stated that he wasn't going to administer those drugs to Prince, I was eye-rollin and side-eyeing like crazy!!

.

I'm sure Andrew wanted to help, but they didn't follow proper procedures in getting Prince stablized for treatment. Where I come from, we call it "half ass".

disch said:

i don't undersand the obsession with what laws were broken during an attempt to save Prince's life. We'll never know, since Prince was dead before any of this happened (according to Laura, he had successfully committed suicide), but if this could have saved his life, I don't care what laws were broken. Saving life is more important.

-

Suboxone is a perfectly legitimate opioid-withdrawal drug, and the plan for its use in this situation came from Dr. K, who is a legitimatly licensed doctor. It's not like this was some weird voodoo experiment or something.

PennyPurple said:

Who said it was Dr. S who was going to be administring the drugs?

.

I respect what you are saying. I'm not saying that Andrew & Dr. K. did not want to help Prince, but they did not follow the correct procedure, which raises a big red flag for me.

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Personally-speaking; it does in fact matter to me if laws were broken because that shows ill-intent on Dr. Kornfeld and Andrew's part. Not only was it unethical and unprofessional what they did; it was also unlawful, and they knew this beforehand, so that makes it even worse, from where I see it.

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Have you researched Dr. Kornfeld?recovery Without Walls? He has a terrible reputation and many of his patients said they almost died under his care. He loaded them up with dope and did not help them at all. You have to understand, we are talking about a facility that treats rocks stars and celebrities in Hollywood and they make millions of dollars, along with these pharmaceutical companies. There are some treatment centers do have a good reputation, but Recovery Without Walls is certainly not one of them.

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[Edited 1/30/18 17:33pm]

laurarichardson said:

I don’t know if he wanted to die, but I do think he had readied himself for it.

Mumio said:

Hi there Mumio!
I also agree with that sentiment. I feel for Kirk. People read his responses during the interview being distant, cold etc. However, laughing is sometimes a coping mechanism to extreme stress. The guy was probably in enormous emotional pain after losing his decades long friend.
What was there for Kirk to gain from Prince's death? Absolutely nothing. Now
he will be forever looked at with suspicion.
Was he an enabler? Absolutely. But for anyone who has tried to manage a person, a friend, a loved one with a serious opioid addiction will know that it is living hell and it is very easy to become an enabler by default because to see them suffer when they go into withdrawals or see them suffer from the pain if they are not taking opioids to aliviate it is heartbreaking. From a professional standpoint, it is often necessary to offer aid to the people around the person with addiction because it is so draining.
Nobody had ever said anything bad about Kirk before that I know of. Prince obviously trusted him. There were not many he did so that should tell everyone all there is to know.
To absolutely crucify this guy now is so unfair as nobody but Prince and Kirk really know what took place. Prince is gone and Kirk has to live with what happened. The law enforcement has seen no reason to hold him accountable for his death so neither should the overzealous justice warriors on this board or elsewhere.

disch said:

What are the proper protocols for getting him stabilized?

cloveringold85 said:

.

When Andrew stated that he wasn't going to administer those drugs to Prince, I was eye-rollin and side-eyeing like crazy!!

.

I'm sure Andrew wanted to help, but they didn't follow proper procedures in getting Prince stablized for treatment. Where I come from, we call it "half ass".

.

Well, to begin with, Prince should have gone to a local treatment center; that was the first thing they did wrong. Dr. Kornfeld had never met Prince to examine him. How could he send his Son, who wasn't qualified to treat Prince or administer any type of drug of any kind.....who had never met Prince, had never been to Paisley Park for that matter. Any time a person is going into detox or for any type of treatment, there is prepping that needs to be done, beforehand. There also has to be mental evaluation done as well. Doctor's have a whole checklist of things they must do before they begin treating any patient.

Susu1976 said:

Yep crucifying him is awfully harsh. We know zip about how difficult
His situation may have been.

Mumio said:

[Snip - luv4u]

I think Dr K was scheduled to arrive the next day, so it was really just about that one-day interval in between where they got Andrew involved, from what I know.

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I think the thing that makes this hard is, we don't know what Prince was agreeing to, if anything. He could very well have refused to go to a local treatment center. Then what? I don't think there's any way that you can physically force a competent adult to get treatment if they don't want it (except maybe if they were arrested and court-ordered or something).

-

I'm not saying this was all some smooth, perfectly by-the-book operation. It would have been way better for sure if he had just gone to Hazelton or something. But you can only do what the patient will agree to, and then you might have to improvise around that, and bend the rules a little.

cloveringold85 said:

disch said:

What are the proper protocols for getting him stabilized?

.

Well, to begin with, Prince should have gone to a local treatment center; that was the first thing they did wrong. Dr. Kornfeld had never met Prince to examine him. How could he send his Son, who wasn't qualified to treat Prince or administer any type of drug of any kind.....who had never met Prince, had never been to Paisley Park for that matter. Any time a person is going into detox or for any type of treatment, there is prepping that needs to be done, beforehand. There also has to be mental evaluation done as well. Doctor's have a whole checklist of things they must do before they begin treating any patient.

[Edited 1/30/18 18:06pm]

cloveringold85 said:

disch said:

What are the proper protocols for getting him stabilized?

.

Well, to begin with, Prince should have gone to a local treatment center; that was the first thing they did wrong. Dr. Kornfeld had never met Prince to examine him. How could he send his Son, who wasn't qualified to treat Prince or administer any type of drug of any kind.....who had never met Prince, had never been to Paisley Park for that matter. Any time a person is going into detox or for any type of treatment, there is prepping that needs to be done, beforehand. There also has to be mental evaluation done as well. Doctor's have a whole checklist of things they must do before they begin treating any patient.

I thought he sent Andrew because he couldn't get there until the 22nd, and he wanted Andrew to assess the situation, Andrew had the drugs in case they were needed for another Dr. to administer them. You can't just get Suboxone anywhere.

disch said:

I think Dr K was scheduled to arrive the next day, so it was really just about that one-day interval in between where they got Andrew involved, from what I know.

-

I think the thing that makes this hard is, we don't know what Prince was agreeing to, if anything. He could very well have refused to go to a local treatment center. Then what? I don't think there's any way that you can physically force a competent adult to get treatment if they don't want it (except maybe if they were arrested and court-ordered or something).

-

I'm not saying this was all some smooth, perfectly by-the-book operation. It would have been way better for sure if he had just gone to Hazelton or something. But you can only do what the patient will agree to, and then you might have to improvise around that, and bend the rules a little.

cloveringold85 said:

.

Well, to begin with, Prince should have gone to a local treatment center; that was the first thing they did wrong. Dr. Kornfeld had never met Prince to examine him. How could he send his Son, who wasn't qualified to treat Prince or administer any type of drug of any kind.....who had never met Prince, had never been to Paisley Park for that matter. Any time a person is going into detox or for any type of treatment, there is prepping that needs to be done, beforehand. There also has to be mental evaluation done as well. Doctor's have a whole checklist of things they must do before they begin treating any patient.

[Edited 1/30/18 18:06pm]

.

Yes, that is very true. They couldn't force him to go. A person has to admit they need help and agree to treatment.

PennyPurple said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Well, to begin with, Prince should have gone to a local treatment center; that was the first thing they did wrong. Dr. Kornfeld had never met Prince to examine him. How could he send his Son, who wasn't qualified to treat Prince or administer any type of drug of any kind.....who had never met Prince, had never been to Paisley Park for that matter. Any time a person is going into detox or for any type of treatment, there is prepping that needs to be done, beforehand. There also has to be mental evaluation done as well. Doctor's have a whole checklist of things they must do before they begin treating any patient.

I thought he sent Andrew because he couldn't get there until the 22nd, and he wanted Andrew to assess the situation, Andrew had the drugs in case they were needed for another Dr. to administer them. You can't just get Suboxone anywhere.

.

I still find the whole thing beyond strange. It would have been much easier to take Prince to Hazelton/Betty Ford Foundation, which is one of the best treatment centers you can find. If it was my loved one, I would have gone about it a different way.

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I guess this is a sensitive subject for me, because I dealt with addiction problems in my own family, so I apologize if I offended anyone. It just gets my Irish up the way this was handled. I mean, this was Prince for God's sake!! Don't sit around waiting for something to go wrong, but that is unfortunately what happened......he O.D.

PennyPurple said:

I thought he sent Andrew because he couldn't get there until the 22nd, and he wanted Andrew to assess the situation, Andrew had the drugs in case they were needed for another Dr. to administer them. You can't just get Suboxone anywhere.

Yes, this is correct.

Mumio said:

Well we never found who this mysterious third doctor was. My goodness two doctors and a medical student when he could have gone down the road. No one thinks maybe he had no plans of meeting with these people.

What do you mean when you say, no one thinks that? I think a lot of people here think. A lot of people think other things too. You think he committed suicide due to terminal cancer, so all of this addiction intervention was a waste of everyone's time anyway

laurarichardson said:

Mumio said:

Yes, this is correct.

Well we never found who this mysterious third doctor was. My goodness two doctors and a medical student when he could have gone down the road. No one thinks maybe he had no plans of meeting with these people.

disch said:

Well if Kornfeld’s practice name “ recovery without walls” means anything then it might suggest that Prince wanted Or was more willing to do a detox plan in PP.
He probably wouldn’t want to go to Hazelton where he could not control his environment or the possible privacy invasion. But if without walls means you can do it without confinement then he may have been aware that help was coming and the presence of illicitly made drugs still in house was a temptation and unregulated
Mess that night.

I agree that sounds plausible Purple. He refused an in-patient program and perhaps agreed to even consider only an at-home program as offered by Dr K. I do think if he had wanted to be in an in-patient facility, he would have checked himself into one. I doubt the people around him were doing aything to prevent him from doing that.

purplefam99 said:

disch said:

I think Dr K was scheduled to arrive the next day, so it was really just about that one-day interval in between where they got Andrew involved, from what I know.

-

I think the thing that makes this hard is, we don't know what Prince was agreeing to, if anything. He could very well have refused to go to a local treatment center. Then what? I don't think there's any way that you can physically force a competent adult to get treatment if they don't want it (except maybe if they were arrested and court-ordered or something).

-

I'm not saying this was all some smooth, perfectly by-the-book operation. It would have been way better for sure if he had just gone to Hazelton or something. But you can only do what the patient will agree to, and then you might have to improvise around that, and bend the rules a little.

[Edited 1/30/18 18:06pm]

Well if Kornfeld’s practice name “ recovery without walls” means anything then it might suggest that Prince wanted Or was more willing to do a detox plan in PP. He probably wouldn’t want to go to Hazelton where he could not control his environment or the possible privacy invasion. But if without walls means you can do it without confinement then he may have been aware that help was coming and the presence of illicitly made drugs still in house was a temptation and unregulated Mess that night.

Jesus I meant it as a question. Yes, if a person does not want to go to an intervention it is a waste of time. It is great if they want to be at the intervention.

disch said:

What do you mean when you say, no one thinks that? I think a lot of people here think. A lot of people think other things too. You think he committed suicide due to terminal cancer, so all of this addiction intervention was a waste of everyone's time anyway

laurarichardson said:

Mumio said: Well we never found who this mysterious third doctor was. My goodness two doctors and a medical student when he could have gone down the road. No one thinks maybe he had no plans of meeting with these people?

I think with an intervention, the idea is to persuade someone to get help if they're resistent. I think if someone is totally on board and seeking treatment, they wouldn't require an intervention per se.

-

With Prince, I don't think we really know if he had specifically agreed to Dr. K's plan, or if he hadn't and the goal was to get him on board.

laurarichardson said:

Jesus I meant it as a question. Yes, if a person does not want to go to an intervention it is a waste of time. It is great if they want to be at the intervention.

disch said:

What do you mean when you say, no one thinks that? I think a lot of people here think. A lot of people think other things too. You think he committed suicide due to terminal cancer, so all of this addiction intervention was a waste of everyone's time anyway

laurarichardson said:

Mumio said:

Yes, this is correct.

Well we never found who this mysterious third doctor was. My goodness two doctors and a medical student when he could have gone down the road. No one thinks maybe he had no plans of meeting with these people.

Right?

laurarichardson said:

Jesus I meant it as a question. Yes, if a person does not want to go to an intervention it is a waste of time. It is great if they want to be at the intervention.

disch said:

What do you mean when you say, no one thinks that? I think a lot of people here think. A lot of people think other things too. You think he committed suicide due to terminal cancer, so all of this addiction intervention was a waste of everyone's time anyway

Jesus is currently unavailable due to a laundry list of shit Manuela and Mayte submitted to the heavenly hosts in order to prohibit Prince from entering into the holy of holies.

disch said:

I think with an intervention, the idea is to persuade someone to get help if they're resistent. I think if someone is totally on board and seeking treatment, they wouldn't require an intervention per se.

-

With Prince, I don't think we really know if he had specifically agreed to Dr. K's plan, or if he hadn't and the goal was to get him on board.

laurarichardson said:

Jesus I meant it as a question. Yes, if a person does not want to go to an intervention it is a waste of time. It is great if they want to be at the intervention.

leec1 said:

Below are excerpts of 2 articles from the New York Times. I have trust in the New York Times (being a life long New Yorker and seeing their coverage of many events over the years).

I believe the New York Times when they indicate Prince decided to seek treatment.

I also believe that when they quote Dr. Johnson in the second article, who heads Minnesota's Opiod Work Group, that what is being stated is based on facts not supposition. Until I see verifiable evidence stating otherwise, then Prince was struggling with an addiction and the outcome was an overdose.

Prince’s Addiction and an Intervention Too Late The New York Times 5/6/16


Many of Prince’s closest friends, relatives and associates have declined to answer questions about his health. So it is unclear who contacted Dr. Kornfeld, but a person with knowledge of the situation said the musician had willingly sought treatment.

The New York Times Prince’s Death: One Year Later, Unsolved Mysteries
“Prince’s death has raised the profile of the opioid crisis even further,” said Dr. Chris Johnson, chairman of the Minnesota Department of Human Services Opioid Prescribing Work Group.

“Even though Prince’s final dose and exit was illicit,” Dr. Johnson said, “the reason he needed it was because of the years of prescriptions that got him on that path.”