It was his fault but he was facilitated. It felt like he had a few accomplices who should at least face scrunity or condemnation for allowing a man so young to destroy himself. The drugs didn't fall out of the sky; the gate around him (secrecy) had gatekeepers. It was a senseless death and he was a sick man ( and probably not just from hip pain) Iwould at least like to know how they could live with themselves whilst facilitating this.

1Sasha said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Thanks udo: it takes a lot of courage and dignity to tell the simple truth on the Org.

His own fault - yes. IMO it was a deliberate act - going out on his own terms for whatever reason, still unknown to us. Udo, you are right again.

[Edited 11/19/17 9:13am]

Yes, she does mention the one incident when she flushed the pills down the toilet. I could totally see him using pills after his son's death to help him cope. I could believe that he may have used painkillers from time to time after age 40 in order to help him recover from grueling performances or for other reasons. However, I don't see how he could have been dependent on painkillers for 19+ years and still performed at the high level that he did.

.

The full interview with Bryant Gumbel when Bryant asks about the baby is no longer on YouTube. I think I recall said something evasive with "We are enlightened individuals...." And then when Bryant says something like "So you're saying that whatever happened, happened for the best," and Prince nodded in agreement. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. 's response was evasive and discombobulated, he was struggling to find the words to express himself. I'm not blaming him because there is nothing worse than losing a child.

.

I totally agree with you that his idea that Amiir would "comeback" was a combination of a belief in reincarnation and convoluted fantasy. This colvoluted fantasy that Amiir would "comeback" was Prince's way of living in denial of the situation. Mayte also wrote in the book that filmed the video for "Betcha By Golly Wow" in the hospital AFTER Amiir died.

.

Even though released 2 songs about Amiir's death, he released both of them on obscure records, "Comeback" on The Truth and "Until U're in my Arms Again" on Newpower Soul. Both songs were quite obscure until his death, and while "Comback" has gained some attention due to Mayte referencing it in her book and NPR's Morning Edition playing a snippet of "Comeback," "UUIMAA" remains obscure to most everyone except for hardcore Prince fans.

purplerabbithole said:

A couple things...didn't Mayte entail P possibly being on pills after the child's death (her flushing pills down the toilet for him.) He was a mess obviously.

I agree with most of what you said *except he does not deny that something went wrong with the kid when Gumbel asks...so I am not sure he was saying literally that everything was fine.

I must repost my earlier post to make my point... P, in my opinion, was not just pretending in an attempt to promote an album whilst maintaining privacy. I think it went beyond that into a spiritual belief that bordered on fantasy and was the result of an untreated emotional breakdown due to professional stress and personal loss. HE could have very easily waited to promote the album and then released the album as a testament to his lost son and it probably would have earned even more money in the long run..(after all, Prince losing a child would have earned him the kind of sympathy that actually sells albums.) Cryptic weird spirituality wasn't really a great promotion tactic. Yes, I agree with whomever said that P was throwing himself into his work to deal with the pain.. (music and work were both his outlet and his reprieve from pain.) but many folks, if they felt they couldn't postpone promotion of said album, would have gone on Oprah and talked about the loss of their child briefly,and then stated that they were continuing to promote the album as a tribute to their deceased son (obviously someone can not hide a deceased child if they publicized his conception in the first place.) I imagine this tactic would have been much more effective.. But instead he does something that made so little sense to anyone around him who doesn't prescribe to his spiritual beliefs that I almost dislike OPrah and Gumbel for even going through with interviewing him. (also, he could have just promoted the album's songs that had nothing to do with son, stated that his family was a private matter, and not involved his wife, or the heartbeat or the nursery...)... His was such a weird and convoluted tactic that it should have been a redflag that something was wrong with him.

HEre is what I said...

Here is how i see it.. Many men (if not most) have a tendency to try to solve problems rather than just directly deal with how they feel. From my understanding, Mayte had been laying in bed hugging the urn for so many days she lost count. If I recall, he at one point snuck into the bed and laid next to her and quietly left. He also (I believe) stated that he couldn't stay in the house anymore. Meanwhile, the album that was a love note to his wife and (at the time) living child is being promoted and there are rumors swirling. I imagine that P thought that he was going to have to solve three problems at the same time--how to help his wife and himself cope, how to promote an independently-produced album that is a painful reminder of better days (that people counted on him to promote) and how to maintain his privacy. Having no idea how to help a wife who is inconsolable, he conjured up a fantasy or belief system for himself that if you never say the words that the boy died than his soul will return (I believe Mayte alluded to a belief of P's that the soul of this child would just slip on to next one.) Maybe he went and wrote Comeback at that point (only to record a few years later) . So, then he tries a bit tough love...forces his wife to get out of bed to do the oprah interview and a few more (Gumbel) and says to her "I need you to do this for me". He tells the world (with his wife like they are an united front) that their family is "fine" so people won't dig into the painful reality and justifies to himself going on Muppets as a way to honor the fallen child and embrace future fatherhood. He tells the world that their family is fine to convince himself that it will be and to continue the dream started when he first starting writing the songs for Emancipation. When this fantasy is challenged later, he embraced a religion that shares some similar ideas...(JW's second resurrection belief)

HEre is the the problem with this kind of coping mechanism---its based on fantasy. Kind of like the infertile married couple in Who's Afraid of Virgina Woolf when they conjure up a child that never existed to keep their marriage together. Prince tried to force his coping mechanism on her and Mayte being in love with the man somewhat resentfully went along with it. She just wanted to feel what she felt and express what she felt for real (and probably wasn't ready to go out publically) Was P cruel? In a way, yes. But he could have been thinking that he had to be cruel to be kind and was starting to get a bit panicky about career and wife's emotional issues. I wonder sometimes if Mayte and others would be less upset with P if he had pushed her to do the interview but encouraged her to be open about what happened. ? The reality is that Mayte has discussed this loss in the public realm herself and with vivid detail (as soon as she was legally able.) . Obviously, she and P coped differently. But I have to say, at least, he didn't force her to speak on the matter. If I recall, when the subject of the child is brought up in both interviews (Gumbel and Oprah), P does the talking. I know he was the dominant one in many ways (not alwasys a good thing obviously) but it was his fantasy he was portraying

I remember reading somewhere P's favorite line from the BIble (according to LG) and it had to do with the resurrection of people healthy and whole into internal life ...No wonder he gravitated toward that belief.

Reminder of the lyrics to Comeback (a song that he very very obscurely released...(4th album on Crystal Ball only available online). Its just cryptic enough to be hidden from those who don't know better.

Come Back lyrics--imply a man who can't even say the words he's gone privately, much less publically. His wife was the opposite.

Very moving. Thank you Michelle!

[Edited 11/18/17 20:10pm]

Morgaine said:

laurarichardson said:

Mayte has publicly stated that she wasn't there for him, either, that they were both lost. She also stated she had her "mask" on during the interview

Glad you acknowledged this since no one else has.

Her mother was not sitting next to her during the interview, though she appeared briefly with others who were asked how they addressed him.

Her mom was present during a portion of the interview. Don't you think she might have had something to say if he was forcing or dragging her to the interview. Once again common sense.

Utilizing and possessing "deduction and common sense" is not synonymous with facts, truth, or inherent knowledge. And it appears you have a great deal of bias against several people involved. Peace & Be Wild

How about the facts of what all of our eyes saw on the program and the fact that unless Mayte was paralyzed and unable to walk? ( which she appears able to do in the interview ) she could have just got up a left the interview. If one is distressed does one stay or go?

If you want to have something broken down to you like a five year old. Well you got it. Have a nice day.

Wow... it's incredible how much misery and contempt are interwoven in your replies to people you don't agree with. I never asked you to "break it down" for me...as bias towards people, povs, etc does not engender clarity. You also do not appear to be very knowledgeable or well-versed in how trauma affects people.

Morgaine, you make a good point about trauma.

.

Prince had a pattern of bottling up his trauma and "sweeping it under the rug," as the saying goes. He was very good at compartmentalizing his trauma and his pain. Prince had trust/abandonment/attachment issues that made it very difficult for him to be vulnerable. He lacked secure attachment with his parents, so he didn't have a secure home base of stable loving parents to which he could return. Due to experienceing rejection from his parents, he was incredibly sensitive to rejection from other people, especially those close to him, so he had a hard time maintaining a stable romantic relationship beause he was so fearful of rejection. He didn't go to enough therapy (if he went to therapy at all) to help him build the necessary skills for maintaining a healthy, lasting, partnership with a woman.

.

This fear of being vulnerable and experiencing rejection explains why he kept things to himself and was "scared to tell anyone" even if he really needed help.

.

laytonian said:

Serious fans know of Andea Swensson of The Current AND her great book GOT TO BE SOMETHING HERE. If you haven't got that one yet, you are missing out on lots of important history.

In a panel held this week, she offers perhaps the best explanation why Prince is no longer here:

"During the Q&A session, an audience member asked how Prince’s death could create a potential positive change for the Opioid Epidemic. Andrea clarified that Prince’s death was actually part of an epidemic of mental health stigma surrounding musicians and public figures. Prince’s death was the result of being in “a lot of pain and [being] scared to tell anyone.”

I had to think about that...but I think she's correct. He didn't want to admit he wasn't as strong as he'd been in his earlier life and never wanted to admit an addiction -- so he hid it. He wanted to give his fam THE FULL PRINCE, no matter the cost to himself. Remember when he said "what if everyone left me?"
Lisa Coleman said essentially the same thing last year: (paraphrasing) "My friend isn't here because he couldn't say he was getting older..."

https://www.peopleofpaisl...e-mourning

[Edited 11/13/17 11:42am]

.

To tie together the points about the effects of trauma and being "scared to tell anyone," it is important to at least consider the impact that Amiir's death had on Prince's life.

Amiir's life and death were pivotal moments in Prince's adult life, directly or indirectly affecting the trajectory of his Prince's life going forward. His death contributed to his divorce from Mayte, his conversion to the JW faith, and the direction of his music in a more "family friendly" direction.

.

Even while Mayte was pregnant, was showing an interest in more "family friendly" endeavors, such as the Muppets show (which he ended up doing after Amiir's death) as well as the unreleased album Happy Tears. The death shattered him, causing him to go into existential soul-searching mode. He came to believe that Amiir's death was a punishment for his behavior as a younger man (p. 250 of Mayte's book), which appeared to make him more concerned about his own salvation. In 1997, while still reeling from the loss of his son, he met Larry Graham, who introduced to the JW faith, and Prince ultimately became a Jehovah's Witness. The combination of fatherhood and becoming a Jehovah's Witness contributed greatly to him to disitance himself from some of the sexually explicit material of his earlier years and embracing more "family friendly" releases and material from 2001 onward.

.

Amiir's birth caused a significant change in Prince's behavior. For 6 days, Prince did not make music. Rather, he was "Papa Bear," and spent almost the entirety of those 6 days at the hospital with his son, being present for his surgeries, just being present with him, and supporting Mayte during her recovery from a difficult pregnancy. went home one time to take a shower. At no other point in his adult life did he ever spend so much time away from making music.

.

Even though Prince was good at compartmentalizing his pain and pushing on in spite of his son's death, we cannot discount the scientific evidence of the negative long-term effects of the death of a child on the parent's health. For example, one of the more rigorous scientific research studies on this topic is called "Long-Term Effects of the Death of a Child on Parents’ Adjustment in Midlife" (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841012/). The study's abstract says the following: "The death of a child is a traumatic event that can have long-term effects on the lives of parents. This study examined bereaved parents of deceased children (infancy to age 34) and comparison parents with similar backgrounds (n = 428 per group) identified in the Wisconsin Longitudinal Study. An average of 18.05 years following the death, when parents were age 53, bereaved parents reported more depressive symptoms, poorer well-being, and more health problems and were more likely to have experienced a depressive episode and marital disruption than were comparison parents. Recovery from grief was associated with having a sense of life purpose and having additional children but was unrelated to the cause of death or the amount of time since the death."

.

It is fair to at least consider that the impact of traumatic events, especially the loss of his song, may have contributed to the underlying physical health problems that Prince experienced as well as the painkiller dependence he experienced at the end of his life.

Odd that he would make "Betcha By Golly Wow" a song about his child being born when it was completely unnecessary.. The content of the song has nothing to do with a child being born. I can understand "Let's Have A Baby" having a video like that. So many redflags that P was living in a denial.

206Michelle said:

Yes, she does mention the one incident when she flushed the pills down the toilet. I could totally see him using pills after his son's death to help him cope. I could believe that he may have used painkillers from time to time after age 40 in order to help him recover from grueling performances or for other reasons. However, I don't see how he could have been dependent on painkillers for 19+ years and still performed at the high level that he did.

.

The full interview with Bryant Gumbel when Bryant asks about the baby is no longer on YouTube. I think I recall said something evasive with "We are enlightened individuals...." And then when Bryant says something like "So you're saying that whatever happened, happened for the best," and Prince nodded in agreement. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. 's response was evasive and discombobulated, he was struggling to find the words to express himself. I'm not blaming him because there is nothing worse than losing a child.

.

I totally agree with you that his idea that Amiir would "comeback" was a combination of a belief in reincarnation and convoluted fantasy. This colvoluted fantasy that Amiir would "comeback" was Prince's way of living in denial of the situation. Mayte also wrote in the book that filmed the video for "Betcha By Golly Wow" in the hospital AFTER Amiir died.

.

Even though released 2 songs about Amiir's death, he released both of them on obscure records, "Comeback" on The Truth and "Until U're in my Arms Again" on Newpower Soul. Both songs were quite obscure until his death, and while "Comback" has gained some attention due to Mayte referencing it in her book and NPR's Morning Edition playing a snippet of "Comeback," "UUIMAA" remains obscure to most everyone except for hardcore Prince fans.

purplerabbithole said:

A couple things...didn't Mayte entail P possibly being on pills after the child's death (her flushing pills down the toilet for him.) He was a mess obviously.

I agree with most of what you said *except he does not deny that something went wrong with the kid when Gumbel asks...so I am not sure he was saying literally that everything was fine.

I must repost my earlier post to make my point... P, in my opinion, was not just pretending in an attempt to promote an album whilst maintaining privacy. I think it went beyond that into a spiritual belief that bordered on fantasy and was the result of an untreated emotional breakdown due to professional stress and personal loss. HE could have very easily waited to promote the album and then released the album as a testament to his lost son and it probably would have earned even more money in the long run..(after all, Prince losing a child would have earned him the kind of sympathy that actually sells albums.) Cryptic weird spirituality wasn't really a great promotion tactic. Yes, I agree with whomever said that P was throwing himself into his work to deal with the pain.. (music and work were both his outlet and his reprieve from pain.) but many folks, if they felt they couldn't postpone promotion of said album, would have gone on Oprah and talked about the loss of their child briefly,and then stated that they were continuing to promote the album as a tribute to their deceased son (obviously someone can not hide a deceased child if they publicized his conception in the first place.) I imagine this tactic would have been much more effective.. But instead he does something that made so little sense to anyone around him who doesn't prescribe to his spiritual beliefs that I almost dislike OPrah and Gumbel for even going through with interviewing him. (also, he could have just promoted the album's songs that had nothing to do with son, stated that his family was a private matter, and not involved his wife, or the heartbeat or the nursery...)... His was such a weird and convoluted tactic that it should have been a redflag that something was wrong with him.

HEre is what I said...

I remember reading somewhere P's favorite line from the BIble (according to LG) and it had to do with the resurrection of people healthy and whole into internal life ...No wonder he gravitated toward that belief.

Reminder of the lyrics to Comeback (a song that he very very obscurely released...(4th album on Crystal Ball only available online). Its just cryptic enough to be hidden from those who don't know better.

Come Back lyrics--imply a man who can't even say the words he's gone privately, much less publically. His wife was the opposite.

Very moving. Thank you Michelle!

[Edited 11/18/17 20:10pm]

purplerabbithole said:

Odd that he would make "Betcha By Golly Wow" a song about his child being born when it was completely unnecessary.. The content of the song has nothing to do with a child being born. I can understand "Let's Have A Baby" having a video like that. So many redflags that P was living in a denial.

Or so many red flags that people aren't listening to what he was really saying? There's more than one way to read it.

Exactly, PRH, it was totally unnecessary. I wonder if anyone suggested to and Mayte that they seek out professional help after their son's death. I wonder if Mayte ever said, "Hey, Could we go speak with a therapist?" I suspect Prince would have rebuffed that suggestion, but just about anything was better than his fantasy charade coping mechanism.

purplerabbithole said:

Odd that he would make "Betcha By Golly Wow" a song about his child being born when it was completely unnecessary.. The content of the song has nothing to do with a child being born. I can understand "Let's Have A Baby" having a video like that. So many redflags that P was living in a denial.

206Michelle said:

Yes, she does mention the one incident when she flushed the pills down the toilet. I could totally see him using pills after his son's death to help him cope. I could believe that he may have used painkillers from time to time after age 40 in order to help him recover from grueling performances or for other reasons. However, I don't see how he could have been dependent on painkillers for 19+ years and still performed at the high level that he did.

.

The full interview with Bryant Gumbel when Bryant asks about the baby is no longer on YouTube. I think I recall said something evasive with "We are enlightened individuals...." And then when Bryant says something like "So you're saying that whatever happened, happened for the best," and Prince nodded in agreement. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. 's response was evasive and discombobulated, he was struggling to find the words to express himself. I'm not blaming him because there is nothing worse than losing a child.

.

I totally agree with you that his idea that Amiir would "comeback" was a combination of a belief in reincarnation and convoluted fantasy. This colvoluted fantasy that Amiir would "comeback" was Prince's way of living in denial of the situation. Mayte also wrote in the book that filmed the video for "Betcha By Golly Wow" in the hospital AFTER Amiir died.

.

Even though released 2 songs about Amiir's death, he released both of them on obscure records, "Comeback" on The Truth and "Until U're in my Arms Again" on Newpower Soul. Both songs were quite obscure until his death, and while "Comback" has gained some attention due to Mayte referencing it in her book and NPR's Morning Edition playing a snippet of "Comeback," "UUIMAA" remains obscure to most everyone except for hardcore Prince fans.

[Edited 11/18/17 20:10pm]

IMHO

NOTHING posted here is an accurate "EXPLANATION" of anything besides the FACT that he passed away. We don't know why he was taking pain killers, was it truly for pain, was he depressed or addicted, only HE knew why!

I mean, NO ONE knows what Prince TRULY thought or was thinking in all honesty....correct? Even when he did say something or acted a certain way be it privately, publicy or in a song lyric, he took those reasons/answers to the grave. No one knows "the secret person of the heart"

If he did or didn't reach out for certain types of help, be it physical or mental, none of us will ever know the REAL, ENTIRE reason of why he did or did not do certain things. He did not owe an explanation to anyone, he could have been to a shrink or had multiple surgeries, how would we know?

Everyone speaks of what a private and reclusive man he was, that he did not like to air his laundry be it clean or dirty. He didn't come off as one of the Kardashians when it came to being a publicity hound. For the most part he kept it close to his vest.

There are so many "Fans" that constantly say why he did this or why he didn't do that, as if they know and what they are saying is factual.

In my opinion, I think a lot of people become so obsessed with actors, musicians etc. that they honestly begin to believe they know this person intimately, that they can read them, speak for them. When in reality, they truly haven't the faintest idea what they are talking about. There are MANY people here that have followed Prince so intently, his every move, his interviews etc.

Yet you still do NOT know the man, or what he was really feeling or thinking. Was he lying, joking or just screwing with people or the media.

There are so many 'Fans' that constantly are saying WHY he did this or WHY he didn't do that, as if what they are saying were fact. When in reality these are all pure guesses, pure presumption.

This post is NOT meant to insult or upset anyone, I just do not understand all the bickering and talk of what and why, the reading into his actions as if anyone here actually knows. Maybe this is part of the grieving process for many and in that case I sympathize. I also do NOT mean to upset or anger anyone, this is just my

Peace,

DC

[Edited 11/19/17 18:53pm]

[Edited 11/19/17 18:54pm]

udo said:

Thanks for your reply.

purplerabbithole said:

I just felt that there was some realism in the original comment and I was admitting I was being heartless in the moment. That doesn’t speak fully to how I feel about P or who he was. those were my 2 thoughts in the moment. And ultimately
His choice.

206Michelle said:

I hear you on that bolded. But P doesn’t get to own heartbreak. We all have that. We all have to keep working when happiness has died. He had the luxury to
Afford to take time to cope and heal. So in a lot of ways he had less worry about
His day to day and could stop and heal.

I see your point. I realize we are all just speculating and trying to psycho-analyse using bits and pieces of public statements, professional decisions, and descriptions of Prince by those who knew him. I think the reason we argue is that some of us want to speculate about Prince in more forgiving or sympathetic ways than others in terms of specific aspects of his possible nature.. And I guess that reflects where our differences lie. But I do know deep down that I could be completely wrong and Prince could be a completely callous heartless man who somehow can emulate real emotions. (I just hope I am not wrong.) I just try my hardest to give the man the benefit of the doubt by finding human reasons for him doing or saying what he said. It makes it easier to relate to his music if I think it comes from a human being of real feeling (no matter how confusing or cryptic it could be.) Ultimately, celebrities we have never met whose art we love become symbols of what we believe about human nature etc. I feel for who I think Prince might have been because his isolation and possible abandonment/trust/fear issues are moving and emotionally relatable to me.

DirtyCache said:

IMHO

NOTHING posted here is an accurate "EXPLANATION" of anything besides the FACT that he passed away. We don't know why he was taking pain killers, was it truly for pain, was he depressed or addicted, only HE knew why!

I mean, NO ONE knows what Prince TRULY thought or was thinking in all honesty....correct? Even when he did say something or acted a certain way be it privately, publicy or in a song lyric, he took those reasons/answers to the grave. No one knows "the secret person of the heart"

If he did or didn't reach out for certain types of help, be it physical or mental, none of us will ever know the REAL, ENTIRE reason of why he did or did not do certain things. He did not owe an explanation to anyone, he could have been to a shrink or had multiple surgeries, how would we know?

Everyone speaks of what a private and reclusive man he was, that he did not like to air his laundry be it clean or dirty. He didn't come off as one of the Kardashians when it came to being a publicity hound. For the most part he kept it close to his vest.

There are so many "Fans" that constantly say why he did this or why he didn't do that, as if they know and what they are saying is factual.

In my opinion, I think a lot of people become so obsessed with actors, musicians etc. that they honestly begin to believe they know this person intimately, that they can read them, speak for them. When in reality, they truly haven't the faintest idea what they are talking about. There are MANY people here that have followed Prince so intently, his every move, his interviews etc.

Yet you still do NOT know the man, or what he was really feeling or thinking. Was he lying, joking or just screwing with people or the media.

There are so many 'Fans' that constantly are saying WHY he did this or WHY he didn't do that, as if what they are saying were fact. When in reality these are all pure guesses, pure presumption.

This post is NOT meant to insult or upset anyone, I just do not understand all the bickering and talk of what and why, the reading into his actions as if anyone here actually knows. Maybe this is part of the grieving process for many and in that case I sympathize. I also do NOT mean to upset or anger anyone, this is just my

Peace,

DC

[Edited 11/19/17 18:53pm]

[Edited 11/19/17 18:54pm]

purplerabbithole said:

I see your point. I realize we are all just speculating and trying to psycho-analyse using bits and pieces of public statements, professional decisions, and descriptions of Prince by those who knew him. I think the reason we argue is that some of us want to speculate about Prince in more forgiving or sympathetic ways than others in terms of specific aspects of his possible nature.. And I guess that reflects where our differences lie. But I do know deep down that I could be completely wrong and Prince could be a completely callous heartless man who somehow can emulate real emotions. (I just hope I am not wrong.) I just try my hardest to give the man the benefit of the doubt by finding human reasons for him doing or saying what he said. It makes it easier to relate to his music if I think it comes from a human being of real feeling (no matter how confusing or cryptic it could be.) Ultimately, celebrities we have never met whose art we love become symbols of what we believe about human nature etc. I feel for who I think Prince might have been because his isolation and possible abandonment/trust/fear issues are moving and emotionally relatable to me.

DirtyCache said:

IMHO

NOTHING posted here is an accurate "EXPLANATION" of anything besides the FACT that he passed away. We don't know why he was taking pain killers, was it truly for pain, was he depressed or addicted, only HE knew why!

I mean, NO ONE knows what Prince TRULY thought or was thinking in all honesty....correct? Even when he did say something or acted a certain way be it privately, publicy or in a song lyric, he took those reasons/answers to the grave. No one knows "the secret person of the heart"

If he did or didn't reach out for certain types of help, be it physical or mental, none of us will ever know the REAL, ENTIRE reason of why he did or did not do certain things. He did not owe an explanation to anyone, he could have been to a shrink or had multiple surgeries, how would we know?

Everyone speaks of what a private and reclusive man he was, that he did not like to air his laundry be it clean or dirty. He didn't come off as one of the Kardashians when it came to being a publicity hound. For the most part he kept it close to his vest.

There are so many "Fans" that constantly say why he did this or why he didn't do that, as if they know and what they are saying is factual.

In my opinion, I think a lot of people become so obsessed with actors, musicians etc. that they honestly begin to believe they know this person intimately, that they can read them, speak for them. When in reality, they truly haven't the faintest idea what they are talking about. There are MANY people here that have followed Prince so intently, his every move, his interviews etc.

Yet you still do NOT know the man, or what he was really feeling or thinking. Was he lying, joking or just screwing with people or the media.

There are so many 'Fans' that constantly are saying WHY he did this or WHY he didn't do that, as if what they are saying were fact. When in reality these are all pure guesses, pure presumption.

This post is NOT meant to insult or upset anyone, I just do not understand all the bickering and talk of what and why, the reading into his actions as if anyone here actually knows. Maybe this is part of the grieving process for many and in that case I sympathize. I also do NOT mean to upset or anger anyone, this is just my

Peace,

DC

[Edited 11/19/17 18:53pm]

[Edited 11/19/17 18:54pm]

PRH: Thank you for this eloquent and compassionate comment.

I think it might have been PRince's choice as well. But I still have to say that blaming his narcissism for his death bugs me. To me, if P died because of pain issues leading to drug usage so he could keep working, its because he was fearful of what people like you (fans) would think and do if they found out he wasn't on his game.. To me, Prince wrecked the fuck out out his body for his fans because music was what validated him as a human being.. To hear a fan attribute his death to his own self love feels ungrateful and cold. Maybe you are right. But to me, a narcissist is someone who would do anything to be in comfort and prolong their own lives. They wouldn't need music to feel valid. To me, a reality show celebrity is a true narcisist. There were too many conditions Prince had to met for him to earn his self-love. And those conditions involved busting his ass to entertain, please and give memorable moments to fans at his shows..

I don't know what you feel about Prince as a human being. Hell, I am not even sure entirely what i feel about Prince as a human being. But I am not too crazy about talks about narcissism being the cause of his death and him being guilty until proven innocent of being an absentee father of Cat's kids (based on no evidence.) . Both feel unfair and disrespectful to a man who I believe died for us and tragically was unable to have healthy kids. I could be wrong. But I prefer to think better of people, especially those whose chose to obtain their fame through hard work and pleasing fans from a stage. Artists are not perfect but they seem so human to me that I have a soft spot for them.

.

purplefam99 said:

purplerabbithole said:

What is realistic about it? Prince's actions are a mystery. Assuming that a supreme love for himself is why he died--that is some mean-spirited shit and an opinion..not a fact that if verifiable. P could be narcisistic but he also could be selfless, it appears. He was a complicated man. That part is fact.

I just felt that there was some realism in the original comment and I was admitting I was being heartless in the moment. That doesn’t speak fully to how I feel about P or who he was. those were my 2 thoughts in the moment. And ultimately His choice.

[Edited 11/19/17 20:45pm]

[Edited 11/19/17 20:49pm]

purplefam99 said:

206Michelle said:

to the sentence I underlined and bolded.

I hear you on that bolded. But P doesn’t get to own heartbreak. We all have that. We all have to keep working when happiness has died. He had the luxury to Afford to take time to cope and heal. So in a lot of ways he had less worry about His day to day and could stop and heal.

I hear what you are saying. doesn't own heartbreak, but there are a few reasons that make his son's death especially heartbreaking:

- Amiir died as an infant, so 's fatherhood was very brief.

- Due to Amiir being medically fragile, and Mayte had to make the gut-wrenching decision to let Amiir go by withdrawing life support.

- Amiir was 's ONLY child.

.

I'm not sure that he really did have the luxury to take time off because remember that the record label EMI ended up going under shortly after released Emancipation. So yes, he could have taken time off, but it would have come at the expense of releasing his first album as an independent artist.

purplerabbithole said:

Purple i don’t think he was completely callous or completely loving he was completely human. He was a sinner and saint the cream of who god chooses have to walk that line in earnest. I do think his message was complete love and he was a follower too and had to fight to live up to the message. He wavered but his message never wavered and that is what god wanted from his soldier prince. One who would never waver in his message. He did what he came to do without fault
He hand delivered the message. It was hard and difficult along the way with enablers, addiction, narcissism, and wealth as potholes but he never dropped his message bag and the contents were never cryptic. He never made us wonder it was clear.

Maybe he was just always emotionally weaker than the rest of us and thus the reason he became a workaholic artist to begin with. His money and fame doesn't necessarily mean he would know how to really heal himself without what he grasped on to the past when things got tough. I feel for those for don't have the money for treatment etc. But everyone has their habits, pains, hang-ups and vices, even the poor who can't afford treatment. But a poor man might have his parents in his life and may be "rich" in other ways.

purplefam99 said:

206Michelle said:

to the sentence I underlined and bolded.

I hear you on that bolded. But P doesn’t get to own heartbreak. We all have that. We all have to keep working when happiness has died. He had the luxury to Afford to take time to cope and heal. So in a lot of ways he had less worry about His day to day and could stop and heal.

purplerabbithole said:

I’m hearing you and would not want to remove a soft spot for a stone.
What you are saying I also get. I do.

You are saying he was God's messenger of love through his music (I am not religious but I imagine Prince had to make sense of his drive, focus, obsession, and talent so he probably felt he was God's instrument...and i guess that can appear like self-love) . . But, imagine the pressure on someone like that to keep working etc to his fullest capacity. I don't think he died because of his self love in any way. I think he died because he was trying to continue to do what was his calling. Narcissm was just an unfortunate by-product of his fame/drive but I don't think he destroyed himself because he loved himself too much. He was cocky about his music, he was self-involved in terms of creating "Prince" the rock star. (which in my opinon was just a way for Prince Rogers Nelson to hide in plain sight.) But I think Prince Rogers Nelson might have been rather selfless at times.. (imagine all the sacrifices he made to keep at his calling.) The personality splits like that with artists sometimes.

Yes, he was a sinner...no doubt. I suspect that when Prince was insecure about himself or his status, or about others' loyalty or honesty, or was resentful of others who didn't have to or want to work as hard, he could be mean. I think sometimes he put his 'calling' above others feelings (probably because he figured they could take it and that ultimately their own musical/professional accomplishments would validate his toughness.) BUt ultimately, I don't think he let maliciousness rule him. And his intentions were mostly good even if his execution sometimes sucked...LOL.

purplefam99 said:

purplerabbithole said:

I see your point. I realize we are all just speculating and trying to psycho-analyse using bits and pieces of public statements, professional decisions, and descriptions of Prince by those who knew him. I think the reason we argue is that some of us want to speculate about Prince in more forgiving or sympathetic ways than others in terms of specific aspects of his possible nature.. And I guess that reflects where our differences lie. But I do know deep down that I could be completely wrong and Prince could be a completely callous heartless man who somehow can emulate real emotions. (I just hope I am not wrong.) I just try my hardest to give the man the benefit of the doubt by finding human reasons for him doing or saying what he said. It makes it easier to relate to his music if I think it comes from a human being of real feeling (no matter how confusing or cryptic it could be.) Ultimately, celebrities we have never met whose art we love become symbols of what we believe about human nature etc. I feel for who I think Prince might have been because his isolation and possible abandonment/trust/fear issues are moving and emotionally relatable to me.

Purple i don’t think he was completely callous or completely loving he was completely human. He was a sinner and saint the cream of who god chooses have to walk that line in earnest. I do think his message was complete love and he was a follower too and had to fight to live up to the message. He wavered but his message never wavered and that is what god wanted from his soldier prince. One who would never waver in his message. He did what he came to do without fault He hand delivered the message. It was hard and difficult along the way with enablers, addiction, narcissism, and wealth as potholes but he never dropped his message bag and the contents were never cryptic. He never made us wonder it was clear.

[Edited 11/19/17 21:28pm]

This just in from Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpos...017/11/19/

Massive story about scope of counterfeit opiod pills...important info...

check your link to make sure you copied it correctly because it is not working.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

This just in from Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpos...017/11/19/

Massive story about scope of counterfeit opiod pills...important info...

So, Prince probably died of an accidental overdose of fentanyl in mislabeled pills he somehow procured on the street from heartless dealers passing them off as the same pills sold at pharmacies. Kind of what they have been saying all along. Of course, that doesn't explain why Prince went the route he did, why and how and by whom this desperate behavior was facilitated, why was alone the night of his death even though the same people attempted to save his life a few nights eaerlier, and why his pain (whatever form it was in) continued even after the hip surgery in 2010 and his apparent recovery in 2011. I don't know maybe in a way the strict mandates on pain medication, the inability of Prince to put aside his career for recovery, and the people around him not wanting to see him unhappy and in pain, just lead to stupid careless mistakes. Who knows. One could argue that physical pain and Prince's obsession with his music and concerns for the quality of his life (without his life's passion) complicated what enabling meant in terms of drug usage.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

This just in from Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpos...017/11/19/

Massive story about scope of counterfeit opiod pills...important info...

[Edited 11/19/17 21:50pm]

[Edited 11/19/17 21:53pm]

[Edited 11/19/17 22:18pm]

Bodhitheblackdog said:

This just in from Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpos...017/11/19/

Massive story about scope of counterfeit opiod pills...important info...

Bodhi, I think you meant this article:

Counterfeit opioid pills are tricking users — sometimes with lethal results

By Katie Zezima November 19 at 9:22 PM

Washington Post (online)

Source: https://www.washingtonpos...69dcd0fb68

206Michelle said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

This just in from Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpos...017/11/19/

Massive story about scope of counterfeit opiod pills...important info...

Bodhi, I think you meant this article:

Counterfeit opioid pills are tricking users — sometimes with lethal results

By Katie Zezima November 19 at 9:22 PM

Washington Post (online)

Source: https://www.washingtonpos...69dcd0fb68

206Michelle: Thanks for posting it correctly...always have trouble transferring those links.

I also meant to thank you for the link. Prince was as vulnerable as anyone (it seems) to those kind of awful shenanigans done in the interest of the money.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

206Michelle said:

Bodhi, I think you meant this article:

Counterfeit opioid pills are tricking users — sometimes with lethal results

By Katie Zezima November 19 at 9:22 PM

Washington Post (online)

Source: https://www.washingtonpos...69dcd0fb68

206Michelle: Thanks for posting it correctly...always have trouble transferring those links.

I'm just trying to make sense of this whole situation (Prince's death) as best I can, given the known information (what I know from the search warrants) and the unknown information. As a part of making sense of this situation, I'm assuming that Prince was the person injesting the Oxycodone and Watson 853 that Dr. Schulenberg prescribed to Kirk Johnson. Having said that, what I'm about to say is just a guess/speculation/grasping at straws. (It's entirely possible that others have come to this same conclusion previously).

.

Perhaps Prince was using both legitimate prescription painkillers and black market painkillers because he wanted access to more painkillers than Dr. S could prescribe for him. If there was a limit on the supply of legitimate prescription painkillers that Dr. S could prescribe for him, the easiest way to gain access to more of the painkillers would be via the black market. As a reseult of accessing additional painkillers through the black market, he unknowingly received fentanyl-laced pills, injested these pills, and [sigh] died.

.

Does my thought process make sense to people?

purplerabbithole said:

I also meant to thank you for the link. Prince was as vulnerable as anyone (it seems) to those kind of awful shenanigans done in the interest of the money.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

206Michelle: Thanks for posting it correctly...always have trouble transferring those links.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

206Michelle said:

Bodhi, I think you meant this article:

Counterfeit opioid pills are tricking users — sometimes with lethal results

By Katie Zezima November 19 at 9:22 PM

Washington Post (online)

Source: https://www.washingtonpos...69dcd0fb68

206Michelle: Thanks for posting it correctly...always have trouble transferring those links.

Bodhi and PRH, You're welcome.

[Edited 11/20/17 17:21pm]

206Michelle said:

I'm just trying to make sense of this whole situation (Prince's death) as best I can, given the known information (what I know from the search warrants) and the unknown information. As a part of making sense of this situation, I'm assuming that Prince was the person injesting the Oxycodone and Watson 853 that Dr. Schulenberg prescribed to Kirk Johnson. Having said that, what I'm about to say is just a guess/speculation/grasping at straws. (It's entirely possible that others have come to this same conclusion previously).

.

Perhaps Prince was using both legitimate prescription painkillers and black market painkillers because he wanted access to more painkillers than Dr. S could prescribe for him. If there was a limit on the supply of legitimate prescription painkillers that Dr. S could prescribe for him, the easiest way to gain access to more of the painkillers would be via the black market. As a reseult of accessing additional painkillers through the black market, he unknowingly received fentanyl-laced pills, injested these pills, and [sigh] died.

.

Does my thought process make sense to people?

purplerabbithole said:

I also meant to thank you for the link. Prince was as vulnerable as anyone (it seems) to those kind of awful shenanigans done in the interest of the money.

yep

Robbajobba said:

And also yep

206Michelle said:

I'm just trying to make sense of this whole situation (Prince's death) as best I can, given the known information (what I know from the search warrants) and the unknown information. As a part of making sense of this situation, I'm assuming that Prince was the person injesting the Oxycodone and Watson 853 that Dr. Schulenberg prescribed to Kirk Johnson. Having said that, what I'm about to say is just a guess/speculation/grasping at straws. (It's entirely possible that others have come to this same conclusion previously).

.

Perhaps Prince was using both legitimate prescription painkillers and black market painkillers because he wanted access to more painkillers than Dr. S could prescribe for him. If there was a limit on the supply of legitimate prescription painkillers that Dr. S could prescribe for him, the easiest way to gain access to more of the painkillers would be via the black market. As a reseult of accessing additional painkillers through the black market, he unknowingly received fentanyl-laced pills, injested these pills, and [sigh] died.

.

Does my thought process make sense to people?

purplerabbithole said:

I also meant to thank you for the link. Prince was as vulnerable as anyone (it seems) to those kind of awful shenanigans done in the interest of the money.

Makes good sense until you realize that the evidence also shows a man who had pills in halves and fourths in those bottles. That's not a sign of someone who was getting high or even adddicted.

Mix in that with the 59 pills in the Bayer anad Alleve bottles were so highlt laced with Fentanyl that whomever touched them would have been poisoned by those pills.

When the M.E. opened him up and discovered the toxicology report of his body it sent them back to P.P. to look for more evidence of where they came from and THEY CAN'T FIND THE SOURCE ANYWHERE.

This was a HIT/MURDER/ASSASSINATION made to look like the typical rock star OD.