Menes said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

OR were these pills just thrown around helter-skelter in drug induced fogs...percocet? oxy?

it's all good...anything that gets me out of my body. The numbers and variety of various pills, legit and street, indicate to me that's why he had been called a "pill man"...If anyone out there has ever been in close proximity to an addict, you know chaos and disorder is not unusual.

I don't think the warrants indicate that they were thrown around "helter skelter". What is clear is that there were placed in places Prince would frequently visit and concealed in containers that looked like vitamin /prescription bottles. Easy to find, easy to identify, easy to disguise.

Good clarification, what I meant to convey was he was apparently taking so much different stuff of varying legitimacy...how could anyone keep it straight? Do you think when you're impaired, you can look in your "Vitamin bottle" (probably in low light) and automatically recognize the strength/legitimacy of what you procurred illegally? Serious question...

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Menes said:

I don't think the warrants indicate that they were thrown around "helter skelter". What is clear is that there were placed in places Prince would frequently visit and concealed in containers that looked like vitamin /prescription bottles. Easy to find, easy to identify, easy to disguise.

Good clarification, what I meant to convey was he was apparently taking so much different stuff of varying legitimacy...how could anyone keep it straight? Do you think when you're impaired, you can look in your "Vitamin bottle" (probably in low light) and automatically recognize the strength/legitimacy of what you procurred illegally? Serious question...

I agree with that assessment. Further, as you pointed out in an earlier post, he would not have wanted Judith to see him having an "episode " which may indicate how unreliable taking so many different things can be.

I will say this... As unreliable of a method as it may have been, when you self administer that much stuff over a period of time, there is but one glaring risk that the user understands. . He didn't start doing this on the day of the plane ride.

The desire to be “Prince” was never far from PRN’s consciousness from a very early age; a yearning to be something larger/different than himself.

Throughout the tribulations of his career and personal life, he chose not to drill down and reconnect with PRN because being “Prince” was so glam, so much fun, so financially rewarding. He was such a big star.

But being a performing artist on the level of “Prince” usually entails piecing out your soul to become other characters for your audience; being such an artist does not facilitate having a real life with authentic long-term, intimate relationships that nurture and heal....especially for someone who was always 'on stage'.

So to those who insist “Prince” never looked high I ask: Do you know what he looked like before he was “Prince?”

Morgaine said:

206Michelle said:

sonshine said:

laurarichardson said: I don't believe he was a raging pill head. People using opiates can be quite functional over a long period of time. It seems for whatever reasons Prince's opiate use took a dangerous turn and coping with those issues without the strict supervision of medical professionals is not wise. We will probably never learn all the how's and why's. But i understand and accept that it did happen. When you play with fire you get burned. He shouldn't have bern trying to work when these things obviously reached a crisis level. He should have taken care of himself first and foremost. The incident in Moline was his chance to do that. He should have immediately sought further help and stopped everything else he was doing at that point.

Sonshine, I totally agree. Prince should have stopped touring and tended to his health issues...but he didn't stop and tend, and as result, he died. The question is, WHY? WHY did he refuse to stop touring? Why did he refuse to tend to his health issues?

We're talking about stuff more potent than heroin here. No matter how much you realize you're in deep shit,
you're still gonna need your dose. And "need" in this case is without a doubt a feeling most of us will never experience, godforbid.
It's not like "Oh, I got the flu, I need some paracetamol".

If we're allowed to speak of human frailties, I have this purple suspicion Prince was not comfortable with his ageing.
I'm not saying it was a motivation for suicide. I'm saying it was one extra reason to pop his little pill (Lawd I loathe this song even more now).

What if there isn't an afterlife?

Doubling back...



I have been focusing on the (100) "Watson 853" pills taken into custody from Paisley park. This is the only known opiate mentioned in the warrant that was found @ Paisley Park .

I checked on the drug label information to do some basic calculations in order to find out what amount of this drug by itself would reproduce the effect of an overdose that occurred in Atlanta.

I used a dosing recommendation ( for adults) of approximately (1) 10 milligram tablet of Hydrocodone Bitartrate every 4-6 hours. To produce the similar action of an overdose, Prince would have had to ingest no less than 8-9 times the amount of Hydrocodone within a very short period of time (as in right after the show). I am calculating the time that show ended in conjunction with the time of the call per the flight details.

That type of dosing can only be translated as in:

1. Someone who is in extreme pain.

2. Someone who has a developed very high tolerance and is clearly used to very high doses of Hydrocodone.

3. Someone who took something else that would produce a similar effect to that of 90-100 milligrams of Hydrocone in your system in less than 4-6- hours.

In regards to the (3) three above-mentioned points:

1. If he were in extreme pain, Judith, Kirk, or the unnamed doctor in Moline would have mentioned that as the impetus for the overdose. The incessant rumor mill (about an overdose) would have taken a back seat to the "Prince was in extreme pain" narrative. Further, if he was in extreme pain , it would have been glaringly obvious way before he boarded the plane. Someone would have seen that back at the venue.

2. They were (100) pills of Hydrocodone found at Paisley Park. There is reason to believe that Prince was buying in bulk and did not consume his first pill(s) at the show in Atlanta nor a week before. That being said, there is a high probability that there was long term mental dependence ( addiction) .

3. There is little to no evidence to support that "Watson 853" is known for producing overdoses whether the pill format is prescribed or illicit. There is also no incentive for dealers/pill mills to produce large quantities of said pill when there is no market for it. There is scant evidence to support that watson 853 is used in toxic combination with other illicit opiates. Further, the evidence does not support that a toxic combination pill has been reproduced for large scale distribution.

* There are many reports of long term "Watson 853" users who are able to identify a legitimate "853" pill by various means: Prince would have been familiar with these if buying in bulk.

1. Color (changed in 2013 to white)

2. Texture

3. Taste

4. Effectiveness

There were only two other pills that were largely manufactured and distributed (2015-16) and were a toxic combination mix of high levels of fentanyl and hydrocodone. Those are the "roxy's" and "A215's". None of these were found @ Paisley Park.

There is a high degree of certainty that Prince did not overdose from a watson 853 pill(s), roxys, or a215's.

Conclusion: A separate agent(s) of the fentanyl analogue that was not found.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Menes said:

Relevance... what you want to say/think; what people are interested in.

Hypothesis. It starts here. It is your starting point based on limited information. It should not be confused with truth, or full and complete data. This is your spring board. You cannot start any analysis from the middle of a thing and discard the root of the thing you are analyzing.

Prior to us analyzing the warrants, the information was limited. The information became tainted with individualized goals. These individualized goals formed the basis of thoughts because a medical examiner released one public data form . The form was scant. Naked. It was all we had that confirmed what the press was saying. The information was not released in its complete form and hence, created even more confusion and doubt. There was no way to support that whatever you guessed happened , could be more accurate than what that form said. For most, it was sufficient and settled science. For others who believed that there was more information, the challenge was to demonstrate that although a piece of paper said "x', there were too many other variables to consider. The ME cannot determine any such variable when specific pre-determined guidelines have been set forth by a licensed body of bureaucrats.

Scientific hypothesis. You have these warrants and you begin to see a clearer picture. Some conclude "x" by historical experimentation( their own personal stories), others, by scientific observation and analysis. It's the common if "x" happened, then "y" must be the answer.


My initial thought was that Prince was an addict and that was the end of it. Some of you would remember the threads I participated in back in April, 2016. They were not pretty, and I belabored the point of a drug addict, incessantly. I had no other information to go on other than he "overdosed' on Fentanyl. I concluded that if you overdosed on Fentanyl, you were an addict. The main points of contention back then, were initially between those that sat in the 'Prince the addict bleacher seats vs. Prince with the terminal illness bleacher seats'. It was brutal back then. There was no give. It was Aids vs pills, cancer vs heroin , chronic hip pain vs.Percocets. Soon after , murder reared its ugly head. It was a disaster. Weaves were getting pulled out left and right round these parts. I remember one poster , Olivia. She was adamant that Prince was murdered at least (7 )different times for each day of the week. The poor thing was subsequently banned. You would have blown a gasket if you were participating back then. I think I might have had a flashback to those days when Linc from Modsquad( aka Mule) brought up the murder business a few days ago. Some of the newbies who think this is bad now, have no idea. We had to save paragraphs every minute because threads were getting shut down /hidden so fast. Moderators were getting attacked so bad that O4FS needed a special forces protection unit to walk around in here with. It has been this way for some time. At least since April, 2016.


Methods used:

I had the leaked warrants in my possession for some time. I had to make a decision. I wanted to be wrong about so many things. The search began by simply researching every single drug in the warrant. It was pain staking. Many months I sat and took down notes, made calls, researched, calculated, and eventually, I was able to put a chart together. This chart consists of times, locations, type of drugs, their properties, how and why each drug would be used, statements concerning the drugs, , and lastly, the man himself as represented in the warrants. It is a long chart with many pages.

I then doubled back with the "sourced" information and created a secondary chart. The only news outlet I used for secondary sourcing, was the Star Tribune. There was only one reporter I followed over there. Wherever he went, I shadowed him. I combined both charts and started to see a pattern. This could not be my simplified version of Prince, the drug addict, back in April , 2016. They were too many layers. The word itself (addict) is identified with "street" , "fiend" , "junkie", etc. This was someone who had to have planned. This wasn't as simple as a "word of the day" puzzle I needed to solve. That's the easy way out for such a complicated person. Prince the addict. It's solves everything. If you believe that he woke up one day and decided to order up some Fentanyl for that night, ask yourself who is Prince to you? If you believe that after he almost died seven days prior that, he would risk death in such a quick amount of time simply because he made a mistake with the dosing, or picked a deadly pill out of a batch by mistake, ask yourself who is Prince to you? Is he that fiend? Is he that dumb? Is he that simple? Could the typical addict do this much prior planning yet not remember the results of an overdose? These were the burning questions. There was no escaping or denying what I understood. This person had to have diligently seeked out every bit of information I was seeking myself in order to trust his life with it over and over again. Coupled that with keeping any of this a secret, this did not appear to be a one and off scenario. This is repetitive behavior. I was left with two nasty choices to ponder on. Either he was the most undercover pathological dope fiend, or, someone who understood exactly what he was doing. How is that for "cryptic"?

I began to research motive. Who did this? Why? What sort of analysis would I have to do to understand the motive for having so many substances at your disposal. Calls were made, research done, and yes, another chart was created. This was the hardest and longest one. It would mean that I would have to dive into the psyche of the person himself. I had to get to know Prince all over again. I had to start from scratch. I needed history . I needed statements. I needed his own words, his own pictures, live shots, his demeanor, his personality, his environment. It was pain-staking. In addition, I had to understand who those were around him really were. A grueling task for sure.

Everything changed. I began to soften my position (which is not easy)and saw something else. I wasn't sympathetic ,but I was now cognizant of something else. It was more than what I thought and no less than what he wanted.

Hope that wasn't too "cryptic".

I leave with this: Just when you thought you knew...

Dear Menes: My heart is filled with gratitude for you; and is breaking at the same time. If only...

[Edited 11/30/17 18:26pm]

Thanks. It's all good . Maybe some will understand that I went thru a rather eye opening experience and had to throw away my own individual bias. I am not where I was a year ago and it is because I decided to take the road less traveled and go wherever the information was taking me. This is regardless of how bad I wanted to be done with it. I haven't listened to a Prince album since Sign O' the times. I really don't have any skin in the "Prince is my idol" mantra, nor the "Prince is the devil incarnate " .

A person asked me once, "what if he had Aids? My response was simple. So.

If you're emotionally invested in the man , the music, the look, the sexuality, I can imagine that it is a bit difficult to see him portrayed in a negative light. It must be a shock to the system. I've just learned to accept the information for what it is and continue to enjoy the music. I could care less if Prince was a Santeria priest dressed in drag who got high and fornicated with the gods. The music is too good.Too powerful. Hey, if that's what it took to get that kind of music, I'm not complaining.

I don't believe in coincidences anymore. I think he methodically planned everything, for months. The tour, the pills, having no one at PP ... everything. And he even knew what would happen afterward.

Morgaine said:

Menes said:

I agree with that assessment. Further, as you pointed out in an earlier post, he would not have wanted Judith to see him having an "episode " which may indicate how unreliable taking so many different things can be.

I will say this... As unreliable of a method as it may have been, when you self administer that much stuff over a period of time, there is but one glaring risk that the user understands. . He didn't start doing this on the day of the plane ride.

I somehow missed the earlier post about P would probably not want a Judith/most/all ppl to see him like this. Puts another angle to it imho. I think I mentioned this before...her description of him just nodding out is not indicative of an opiate med OD, especially not oxycodone. Even someone taking it the first time/intermittently would not nod out from 2 pills. Throw up, have a headache, feel nauseous, yes. Most ppl forget that a very high percentage of opiate med ods are due to them being mixed with alcohol or various meds. The records (which we'll never see) for that emergency would explain a lot, I'm guessing Peace & Be Wild

Dr. Drew said he sounded like what Judith described was a seziure. The EMT do use Narcan to review people if they do not know what they took and Judith and Kirk may not have known exactly what he took or what was going. I think we can only say he took one or two percs because that is what he told the docs in Moline. Having taken Perc and had to go the hospital I can assure he took more then any one of two if he almost died. This part of the Moline story has never made sense.

[Edited 12/12/17 6:58am]

morningsong said:

laurarichardson said:

Dr. Drew said he sounded like what Judith described was a seziure. The EMT do use Narcan to review people if they do not know what they took and Judith and Kirk may not have known exactly what he took or what was going. I think we can only say he took one or two percs because that is what he told the docs in Moline. Having taken Perc and had to go the hospital I can assure he took more then any one of two if he almost died. This part of the Moline story has never made sense.

[Edited 12/12/17 6:58am]

n If he took one or two counterfeit pills with incorrect ingredients and dosages it would be the same thing.

But how about the manner in which Judith said he just stop speaking and how his eyes became fixed and he dozed off. According to Dr. Drew that did not sound like an O.D. Once again I am not saying he was not taking pain pills.

1Sasha said:

morningsong said:

1Sasha said: You think he did that to Judith on purpose? He was methodically planning on passing on in front of her, for months? And then having a backup plan in case that didn't work?

He would not be the first person to do this in front of another person. But I think what happened on the plane might have been a seizure, which of course was unplanned. But the rest of it? Planned.

It might have been, it might not have been, no way of knowing at this time. All I know is he stopped breathing and was unresponsive, because they gave him a Narcon shot, somewhere it says it was 2 shots, but either way he came to afterwards. I don't know, maybe so, but Narcon is for opiate overdose not seizures. So I don't understand why he would come around after being given the shot if he was having a seizure instead. Is that normal?