1725topp said:

SimonCharles said:

Fair point, well made, in particulr your comment about the MTV performance: it gets lots of praise but it does smack of parody.

The reason why I consider the glimpse of the Game Boyz as having significance in this context is simply because they don't sit in the Lovesexy product - neither in performance on promotional material or on record. They are a sign of an aesthetic evolution as opposed to a musical one that occurred with the expansion of the The Revolution through '85 and '86. As such they mark a presentational change in Prince's work and, arguably, a change that indicated Prince was becoming more concerned with appearance than reality.

*

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "appearance," Prince was always concerned with his physical "appearance." However, Prince combined/amalgamated his musical and physical/stylish inspirations so well that many didn't recognize that his style (musical, lyrical, and clothing) was created from an amalgamation of various styles. For instance, was Prince chasing trends when he B-Boyed in the "Little Red Corvette" video during the guitar solo? He obviously didn't create that dance move, but in his brilliance he was able to combine a James Brown split with Hip Hop B-boying to create his own thing/move. (The first time I saw that video it was clear to me that Prince watched/listened to/was aware of hip hop culture.) As such, the same could be said with the Game Boyz. They were just his take on the past and the present. For instance, in the counter-Revolution, Prince is clearly using Jerome, Greg, and Wally to create his own Famous Flames look and feel but also doing it in a new way so that it's not just a "rip off." Yet, Billy Sparks, when promoting the 86 Birthday show on the Electrifying MoJo Show actual says, “Famous Flames,” which makes it clear that Prince is conscious of other styles and consciously integrates/amalgamates those other styles into his work. Now, the question of if he integrates/amalgamates them well is another debate, but he has certainly always integrated/amalgamated various aesthetics into his own.

*

As for the Game Boyz not "sitting in the Lovesexy product," again, I'm not sure what you mean. Are we saying that certain dance moves, such as hip hop, don't fit well within certain musical forms? If so, I'd argue that notion is a bit myopic given the fact that I've seen dancers use a variety of forms within a variety of musical compositions. And, again, Prince was always as concerned with the fashion aesthetic as he was the musical aesthetic, being careful to use dashes of various elements that allowed him to be connected to a lot of worlds while simultaneously constructing his own, unique world.

*

Of course, one who doesn't like the hip hop aesthetic could argue that embracing hip hop made Prince's work less pleasing to one, but there has rarely been a time when a great artist was not influenced by something new. Since I've never been a big hip hop connoisseur, I don't really know the difference between good hip hop and bad hip hop or good emceeing and bad emceeing. As such, I was never bothered by what the Game Boyz did or even by Tony M's rapping because it was usually within and never overshadowed the essential aesthetic that I loved about Prince. So, “Call the Law” or “Push” or “The Flow” utilized emceeing but within the framework of the funk aesthetic. Prince wasn’t bending his musical form to fit hip hop, he was trying to find a way to fit hip hop into what he was already doing. That’s called growth, which is the same thing that Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock did. However, since I've always hated house music, I hate the opening of the Nude Tour because until "Kiss," iirc, the other opening songs suffer, lose their aesthetic essence, by being refashioned as house music. (Well, “The Future” isn’t so bad, but “1999” and “Housequake” are atrocious to my ears. But, hey, that’s all part of an artist trying something new. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. Then, again, I'm not as bothered by Tony M's rap in "Love 2 d 9s" as most folks because, again, while somewhat annoying --just because "Love 2 d 9s" begins as such a beautiful/soulful song--it is still within the framework or context of Prince's aesthetic whereas "Mr. Goodnight" is just a hot mess. Prince's rapping is horrible, even I can hear that, but "Chelsea Rodgers" makes up for it. Yet, that, in a nutshell, was Prince. He was always trying to find ways to mix and match all of what he loved or all of what intrigued him. Again, sometimes it worked well, and sometimes it didn’t. But, for my subjective tastes, there was always much more good than bad…well…until Hit & Run: Phase 1. Then, it’s mostly bad, but thank God for Phase 2.

Really interesting argument - and well put. Thank you.

*

I would agree that Prince amalgamated much of music history into his story and journey as an artist - your fine example of the Little Red Corvette video being a case in point. And this argument of mine stems, I think, more in line with manner of incorporation. The appearance of the Game Boyz in the Glam Slam video jars - to these eyes - there is a lack of authenticity about their being on that balcony in that video (again, to these eyes). Like you, I've never minded much of the Tony M material - your referencing the NPG songs I agree with what you say in that regard. Your description of the use of Wally, Brooks and Jerome is beautifully rendered and, again, I agree with what you say. I would repeat the use of the word authentic, and I would argue that their appearance as part of the expanded Revolution is a natural evolution of the performance aspect of the band. Hence my comment about the Game Boyz not sitting in the "Lovesexy product". I would argue that they don't fit, add nothing, and distract from the core elements of "Lovesexy". Go back to the third of the videos and see Eye Wish U Heaven. Your comment about dance moves not fitting applies here - the use of the running man in that video is delicious. It is a creative touch that is pulled off brilliantly by Cat, Sheila E and Boni, in much the same way that Prince and Cat pulled off the hip-hop styled moves toward the end of Alphabet St. That's Prince's subtlety at work. The Game Boyz are not subtle; as such they are an unnecessary addition to this video and a poor attempt to straddle genres.

*

On a side note - I agree: thank whichever deity you like for Phase II.

SimonCharles said:

1725topp said:

*

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "appearance," Prince was always concerned with his physical "appearance." However, Prince combined/amalgamated his musical and physical/stylish inspirations so well that many didn't recognize that his style (musical, lyrical, and clothing) was created from an amalgamation of various styles. For instance, was Prince chasing trends when he B-Boyed in the "Little Red Corvette" video during the guitar solo? He obviously didn't create that dance move, but in his brilliance he was able to combine a James Brown split with Hip Hop B-boying to create his own thing/move. (The first time I saw that video it was clear to me that Prince watched/listened to/was aware of hip hop culture.) As such, the same could be said with the Game Boyz. They were just his take on the past and the present. For instance, in the counter-Revolution, Prince is clearly using Jerome, Greg, and Wally to create his own Famous Flames look and feel but also doing it in a new way so that it's not just a "rip off." Yet, Billy Sparks, when promoting the 86 Birthday show on the Electrifying MoJo Show actual says, “Famous Flames,” which makes it clear that Prince is conscious of other styles and consciously integrates/amalgamates those other styles into his work. Now, the question of if he integrates/amalgamates them well is another debate, but he has certainly always integrated/amalgamated various aesthetics into his own.

*

As for the Game Boyz not "sitting in the Lovesexy product," again, I'm not sure what you mean. Are we saying that certain dance moves, such as hip hop, don't fit well within certain musical forms? If so, I'd argue that notion is a bit myopic given the fact that I've seen dancers use a variety of forms within a variety of musical compositions. And, again, Prince was always as concerned with the fashion aesthetic as he was the musical aesthetic, being careful to use dashes of various elements that allowed him to be connected to a lot of worlds while simultaneously constructing his own, unique world.

*

Of course, one who doesn't like the hip hop aesthetic could argue that embracing hip hop made Prince's work less pleasing to one, but there has rarely been a time when a great artist was not influenced by something new. Since I've never been a big hip hop connoisseur, I don't really know the difference between good hip hop and bad hip hop or good emceeing and bad emceeing. As such, I was never bothered by what the Game Boyz did or even by Tony M's rapping because it was usually within and never overshadowed the essential aesthetic that I loved about Prince. So, “Call the Law” or “Push” or “The Flow” utilized emceeing but within the framework of the funk aesthetic. Prince wasn’t bending his musical form to fit hip hop, he was trying to find a way to fit hip hop into what he was already doing. That’s called growth, which is the same thing that Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock did. However, since I've always hated house music, I hate the opening of the Nude Tour because until "Kiss," iirc, the other opening songs suffer, lose their aesthetic essence, by being refashioned as house music. (Well, “The Future” isn’t so bad, but “1999” and “Housequake” are atrocious to my ears. But, hey, that’s all part of an artist trying something new. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. Then, again, I'm not as bothered by Tony M's rap in "Love 2 d 9s" as most folks because, again, while somewhat annoying --just because "Love 2 d 9s" begins as such a beautiful/soulful song--it is still within the framework or context of Prince's aesthetic whereas "Mr. Goodnight" is just a hot mess. Prince's rapping is horrible, even I can hear that, but "Chelsea Rodgers" makes up for it. Yet, that, in a nutshell, was Prince. He was always trying to find ways to mix and match all of what he loved or all of what intrigued him. Again, sometimes it worked well, and sometimes it didn’t. But, for my subjective tastes, there was always much more good than bad…well…until Hit & Run: Phase 1. Then, it’s mostly bad, but thank God for Phase 2.

Really interesting argument - and well put. Thank you.

*

I would agree that Prince amalgamated much of music history into his story and journey as an artist - your fine example of the Little Red Corvette video being a case in point. And this argument of mine stems, I think, more in line with manner of incorporation. The appearance of the Game Boyz in the Glam Slam video jars - to these eyes - there is a lack of authenticity about their being on that balcony in that video (again, to these eyes). Like you, I've never minded much of the Tony M material - your referencing the NPG songs I agree with what you say in that regard. Your description of the use of Wally, Brooks and Jerome is beautifully rendered and, again, I agree with what you say. I would repeat the use of the word authentic, and I would argue that their appearance as part of the expanded Revolution is a natural evolution of the performance aspect of the band. Hence my comment about the Game Boyz not sitting in the "Lovesexy product". I would argue that they don't fit, add nothing, and distract from the core elements of "Lovesexy". Go back to the third of the videos and see Eye Wish U Heaven. Your comment about dance moves not fitting applies here - the use of the running man in that video is delicious. It is a creative touch that is pulled off brilliantly by Cat, Sheila E and Boni, in much the same way that Prince and Cat pulled off the hip-hop styled moves toward the end of Alphabet St. That's Prince's subtlety at work. The Game Boyz are not subtle; as such they are an unnecessary addition to this video and a poor attempt to straddle genres.

*

On a side note - I agree: thank whichever deity you like for Phase II.

Sorry - no idea why the font changed size!

airth said:

SimonCharles said:

I adore this song, I adore the performance in concert, and I adore the fact they tried to recapture this performance in the video. Is it, however, the moment when Prince jumped the shark? I ask because, there in the background, in a parody of their balcony routine glimpsed in Purple Rain, are the Game Boyz...and that, arguably, was the end of Prince creating trends, it was the moment Prince chased trends.

Discuss.

I've never bought into the neat argument that Prince shifted from being a trendsetter to a "trend-chaser". Throughout his career he produced work that blended outside influences or referred back to previous elements - at times, resulting in wholly singular creations; at others, missing the mark.

I don't see how a glimpse of the Game Boyz can be argued as having any particular significance. If there's a visual moment when Prince went over the edge, I'd focus in on the 1991 MTV performance. It was then that I felt Prince himself had fallen into unintentional self-parody.

Unfortunately that ill-advised performance was one of the few clips on Youtube for ages so it got a second lease of life. Similarly, in the days after his death one of the only clips on Youtube was his lacklustre performance of PR on The Arsenio Hall Show. It got about 24 million views before it was taken down.

It's ironic since on that same show he had given incredible performances of Kiss and Daddy Pop.

SimonCharles said:

SimonCharles said:

000000 said:

Prince didn't jump the shark or follow trends. I'm still amazed by the PP output the year before Lovesexy was released... Crazy!

• 1987: Prince: Sign "☮" the Times album & movie

• 1987: Madhouse: 8
• 1987: Sheila E.: Sheila E.
• 1987: Jill Jones: Jill Jones
• 1987: Taja Sevelle: Taja Sevelle §
• 1987: Madhouse: 16

to follow up 1987 with Lovesexy was sheer brilliance.

[Edited 8/18/17 18:43pm]

To be fair, I did not say he jumped the shark in 1987 or through the release of the Lovesexy album or show.

but to be logical, you wouldn't expect Prince to follow up 1988 with a similiar LP to Sign "☮" the Times.

In 1988, Prince also recorded and released (limited) "The Black Album". 1987 was his creative peak IMO

Prince didn't get caught up with the mega success of Purple Rain. He was a success artist before 1984 who always stayed true to himself and his core fan base. Therefore, Prince never "jumped the shark." IMO. After PR, Prince knew he could have released a similiar sounding CD. Instead he chose to release ATWIAD. That's the type of dude Prince was.

000000 said:

SimonCharles said:

To be fair, I did not say he jumped the shark in 1987 or through the release of the Lovesexy album or show.

but to be logical, you wouldn't expect Prince to follow up 1988 with a similiar LP to Sign "☮" the Times.

In 1988, Prince also recorded and released (limited) "The Black Album". 1987 was his creative peak IMO

Fair point - I would argue that 87/88 was his creative peak and then a measure of plateau and dipping off, rising once again occurred for the rest of his career.

000000 said:

Prince didn't get caught up with the mega success of Purple Rain. He was a success artist before 1984 who always stayed true to himself and his core fan base. Therefore, Prince never "jumped the shark." IMO. After PR, Prince knew he could have released a similiar sounding CD. Instead he chose to release ATWIAD. That's the type of dude Prince was.

Fair point.

The "jumping the shark" element to all this, I would argue, is that Prince never needed "dancers". I know the evidence is there right in front of my eyes, Cat, Greg, Wally, Jerome...but were they "dancers"? I would contend that they were not. The Game Boyz were. And that's when the shark got jumped. In my opinion.

000000 said:

SimonCharles said:

To be fair, I did not say he jumped the shark in 1987 or through the release of the Lovesexy album or show.

but to be logical, you wouldn't expect Prince to follow up 1988 with a similiar LP to Sign "☮" the Times.

In 1988, Prince also recorded and released (limited) "The Black Album". 1987 was his creative peak IMO

.

And Lovesexy was the fall from grace. It was the album where he went seems to have lost it. After the amazing highs he achieved in 1986 and the output from that year in 1987, the events that stopped the black album made him start again. And he was searching. Both in a spiritual sense as well as in a musical sense and a commercial sense.

.

Not sure about the glam slam video being the shark jumping, I feel it was the Lovesexy album (and tour). He dove into a slum that lasted, for the most part, until the Rainbow Children. This is the period that brought us the commercial hit-seeking albums as Batman and diamonds and pearls where he started to flirt with rap and house. He never really recovered.

.

Still, even though he went from "can do no wrong demi-god" to "frustrating artist with glimpses of his former brilliance", he gave us the occasional morsel that was on a level that other artists simply did not reach.

Does any great artist follow commercial success? Did Beethoven, Mozart or Piccaso follow the trends or fads or their era? I'm not sure ? But it seems most of "the greats" followed their own visions and hearts. Their originality, uniqueness is probably what keeps them relevant decades & even a hundred years later.

2020 said:

Where exactly do all these people come from with these odd completely false idiotic questions and statements. LOCK THIS NONSENSE [Edited 8/19/17 6:24am]

give up....i cant convince anyone how great he was in the 90's...

1725topp said:

luvsexy4all said:

2020 said:

Where exactly do all these people come from with these odd completely false idiotic questions and statements. LOCK THIS NONSENSE [Edited 8/19/17 6:24am]

give up....i cant convince anyone how great he was in the 90's...

A bit confused - this is a forum for discussion, I have put forward an argument, it is being discussed. Whats the issue?

mikeyaddict said:

Right. So I watched Fonzy jumping the shark. That was pretty cool. Why is that being referred to as a bad thing? Good shit if you ask me.

Have a quick look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

The argument being put forward is that Prince turned from what drove him to rush and try and keep up with others.

000000 said:

Does any great artist follow commercial success? Did Beethoven, Mozart or Piccaso follow the trends or fads or their era? I'm not sure ? But it seems most of "the greats" followed their own visions and hearts. Their originality, uniqueness is probably what keeps them relevant decades & even a hundred years later.

Nicely put. I'm pretty sure they did and I'm pretty sure they will for all time. Your last sentence is interesting as it does go some way to articulating an aspect of the point I'm putting forward: to continue a comparison made earlier in the discussion, Wally, Greg, Jerome and Cat have an authenticity about them due to the manner of Prince's incorporation of these "dancers" into his stage show. I would argue that the Game Boyz were not original, nor unique. In fact, they were pastiche from the moment they took centre stage. Simply look to the spelling of their name, for example. Maybe I'm missing the satirical/parodic use of these men - the clunckiness of the dancing, automanton-like in its performance, set against the fluidity and "seemingly" improvised nature Prince's dancing through the two years or so before (I can hear a counter argument coming already - look at the moves on the Electric Chair performance SNL - the three of them move likes robots there for the most part...); their overt heterosexuality juxtaposed against the asexual/homosexual elements of their dance routines; their exaggerated hip-hop-ness. Perhaps Prince was trying to exemplify exactly how Dead On It this whole style and influence could be? Anyway - Their appearance in the Glam Slam video jars, for me. And it appears to be the moment when Prince verges on the edge of originality/uniqueness and relevance. Many will disagree. That's their prerogative (as another not entirely unique and unoriginal attempt to capture the hip-hop audience might suggest).

[Edited 8/19/17 13:43pm]

SimonCharles said:

000000 said:

Does any great artist follow commercial success? Did Beethoven, Mozart or Piccaso follow the trends or fads or their era? I'm not sure ? But it seems most of "the greats" followed their own visions and hearts. Their originality, uniqueness is probably what keeps them relevant decades & even a hundred years later.

Nicely put. I'm pretty sure they did and I'm pretty sure they will for all time. Your last sentence is interesting as it does go some way to articulating an aspect of the point I'm putting forward: to continue a comparison made earlier in the discussion, Wally, Greg, Jerome and Cat have an authenticity about them due to the manner of Prince's incorporation of these "dancers" into his stage show. I would argue that the Game Boyz were not original, nor unique. In fact, they were pastiche from the moment they took centre stage. Simply look to the spelling of their name, for example. Maybe I'm missing the satirical/parodic use of these men - the clunckiness of the dancing, automanton-like in its performance, set against the fluidity and "seemingly" improvised nature Prince's dancing through the two years or so before (I can hear a counter argument coming already - look at the moves on the Electric Chair performance SNL - the three of them move likes robots there for the most part...); their overt heterosexuality juxtaposed against the asexual/homosexual elements of their dance routines; their exaggerated hip-hop-ness. Perhaps Prince was trying to exemplify exactly how Dead On It this whole style and influence could be? Anyway - Their appearance in the Glam Slam video jars, for me. And it appears to be the moment when Prince verges on the edge of originality/uniqueness and relevance. Many will disagree. That's their prerogative (as another not entirely unique and unoriginal attempt to capture the hip-hop audience might suggest).

[Edited 8/19/17 13:43pm]

Oh, and please don't misunderstand me...in amongst all this there were continued examples of genius being created and released by Prince. There were an increased number of songs I personally didn't enjoy as much but the albums released and concerts performed through 1989 to, say, 1993ish were loaded with fine music and enjoyable spectacle. I would argue that its only with the anger conjured up by Prince's fight with WBros that reverted him to music and stripped away some of the superfluity of his world. I was going to say made him music focused again but the I remember the hge penis and clitoris on stage with him during the Gold Experience Tour and realised I should rein the agrument back a little.

SimonCharles said:

SimonCharles your last two post made me think of the Xpectation CD. Not sure what brought that on. Thanks. I respect your opinion.

SimonCharles said:

mikeyaddict said:

SimonCharles said:

Have a quick look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

The argument being put forward is that Prince turned from what drove him to rush and try and keep up with others.

Gotcha! I loved Lovesexy. For me I feel it was the final time at his peak that he was completely himself and not chasing trends, as people might say he did with Tony M (but wasn't he amongst the first to have live band rappers - like the Roots?). Batdance and Grafitti Bridge were the break where there should've been Rave (possibly) and then came D&P and definite trend chasing. Still. Out of context Fonzy jumping the shark is pretty cool, and looking back whilst I don't feel this applies to lovesexy I have a certain fondness for Tony M…if only the stage show had him jumping a shark!!

Now that would have been Kick Ass!

000000 said:

SimonCharles your last two post made me think of the Xpectation CD. Not sure what brought that on. Thanks. I respect your opinion.

Likewise. Thank you for the engaging discussion. I've enjoyed it.

SimonCharles said:

laurarichardson said:

SimonCharles said:

Have a quick look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

The argument being put forward is that Prince turned from what drove him to rush and try and keep up with others.

--No Orince was a recording artist working for WB and he had to sell records like everybody else on that lable. When you work for yourself you do as you please when you work for someone else you do what you are told. The job of an entertainer is to entertain.

That's an interesting idea. Do you think that WBros instructed Prince to incorporate the Game Boyz into his work? I would argue that Prince's entertainment value came from the calibre of his music and the inspirational way in which he blended the influences of those he found inspiring himself to create musical landscapes and aural pictures of astounding quality: the stageshows for Sign O The Times and Lovesexy, for instance, were incredible. The stageshow for Nude, arguably more formulaic.

SimonCharles said:

SimonCharles said:

Really interesting argument - and well put. Thank you.

*

I would agree that Prince amalgamated much of music history into his story and journey as an artist - your fine example of the Little Red Corvette video being a case in point. And this argument of mine stems, I think, more in line with manner of incorporation. The appearance of the Game Boyz in the Glam Slam video jars - to these eyes - there is a lack of authenticity about their being on that balcony in that video (again, to these eyes). Like you, I've never minded much of the Tony M material - your referencing the NPG songs I agree with what you say in that regard. Your description of the use of Wally, Brooks and Jerome is beautifully rendered and, again, I agree with what you say. I would repeat the use of the word authentic, and I would argue that their appearance as part of the expanded Revolution is a natural evolution of the performance aspect of the band. Hence my comment about the Game Boyz not sitting in the "Lovesexy product". I would argue that they don't fit, add nothing, and distract from the core elements of "Lovesexy". Go back to the third of the videos and see Eye Wish U Heaven. Your comment about dance moves not fitting applies here - the use of the running man in that video is delicious. It is a creative touch that is pulled off brilliantly by Cat, Sheila E and Boni, in much the same way that Prince and Cat pulled off the hip-hop styled moves toward the end of Alphabet St. That's Prince's subtlety at work. The Game Boyz are not subtle; as such they are an unnecessary addition to this video and a poor attempt to straddle genres.

*

On a side note - I agree: thank whichever deity you like for Phase II.

Sorry - no idea why the font changed size!

*

The font change happens to me as well sometimes. I don't know why it happens. I just learned to save and copy as I go so that when it happens I can just paste my original comments without having to retype them.

*

As for the dancing of The Gam Boyz and if it fits with the Lovesexy aesthetic/theme, I guess it depends upon how one interprets/perceives that aesthetic/theme. So, comparing what you said regarding Cat, Boni, and Shelia's use of hip hop moves to The Game Boyz's use of hip hop moves, the only difference I see is the masculinity of The Game Boyz working in a way that may be too "aggressive," for lack of a better term, depending on how one interprets the spiritual theme/aesthetic of Lovesexy. That is--spirituality, as an aesthetic, tends to have--and I'm being stereotypical to make a point--a more free-flowing less rigid range of motion that symbolizes freeing oneself from physical confines whereas hip hop dance is generally aggressive with moves of "popping" and "locking" that connote a more exclamatory and masculine feel. (That does not mean that women cannot master hip hop dance, but it means that aggression, in Western terms, is often associated with masculinity, which is rarely associated with spirituality. In Western terms, to become more spiritual often means to become less aggressive, which means to become less masculine, again, speaking in a stereotypical Westernized term.) So, that may be what you are sensing/interpreting from The Game Boyz--that their movement is too aggressive and rigid for what you perceive as the more liquid or free-flowing spiritual aesthetic of Lovesexy. However, I would argue that Prince is, once again, being his princely self by showing that spirituality and spiritual expression come in many forms, making The Game Boyz a "necessary" aspect to the ultimate message he wants to articulate, which is that connection to God is a liberating act that allows anyone to express themselves in anyway. As such, the inclusion of The Game Boyz is par for the course or as typical for Prince as his "Uptown" utopian ideology of "Black, White, Puerto Rican, everybody just a freakin'." So, not to include The Game Boyz would be Prince not including every aspect of himself--which includes that aspect which is connected to what's hip in black culture at the time and always finding a way to amalgamate it with his other influences.

*

In a similar way, the big drum beat and pounding bass of "Glam Slam" represents Prince's soul and funk roots whereas the use of strings atop the drum and bass provide the flowery free-flowing whimsical quality generally associated with spirituality. Then, of course, the lyrical discussion of the intersection of the physical and spiritual ties it all together. Thus, The Game Boyz seem to serve as a necessary role/symbolism about the body/physical being liberated. They are the body, the physical, the big pounding beat of the drum and bass, and Shelia, Boni, and Cat are the soul, the spiritual, the free-flowing movement of the strings and keyboards. (The electricty of the guitar connects these two elements.) And, it is that combination/intersection that is being praised/celebrated in "Glam Slam"--the notion that the body can be a gateway to the spiritual and that the spiritual can be manifest in the physical. Without The Game Boyz the physical has no symbolic representation to balance the spiritual representation of Shelia, Boni, and Cat. And, of course, Prince—through his androgyny—becomes/symbolizes the completed state of spiritual enlightenment in which the body and soul as well as the male and female become one, represented by the lovers of the song becoming one. “This thing we got it’s alive; it seems to transcend the physical.” Without The Game Boyz where is the representation of the physical that must be transcended or blended with the spiritual to complete the spiritual enlightenment?

dodger said:

1725topp said:

*

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "appearance," Prince was always concerned with his physical "appearance." However, Prince combined/amalgamated his musical and physical/stylish inspirations so well that many didn't recognize that his style (musical, lyrical, and clothing) was created from an amalgamation of various styles. For instance, was Prince chasing trends when he B-Boyed in the "Little Red Corvette" video during the guitar solo? He obviously didn't create that dance move, but in his brilliance he was able to combine a James Brown split with Hip Hop B-boying to create his own thing/move. (The first time I saw that video it was clear to me that Prince watched/listened to/was aware of hip hop culture.) As such, the same could be said with the Game Boyz. They were just his take on the past and the present. For instance, in the counter-Revolution, Prince is clearly using Jerome, Greg, and Wally to create his own Famous Flames look and feel but also doing it in a new way so that it's not just a "rip off." Yet, Billy Sparks, when promoting the 86 Birthday show on the Electrifying MoJo Show actual says, “Famous Flames,” which makes it clear that Prince is conscious of other styles and consciously integrates/amalgamates those other styles into his work. Now, the question of if he integrates/amalgamates them well is another debate, but he has certainly always integrated/amalgamated various aesthetics into his own.

*

As for the Game Boyz not "sitting in the Lovesexy product," again, I'm not sure what you mean. Are we saying that certain dance moves, such as hip hop, don't fit well within certain musical forms? If so, I'd argue that notion is a bit myopic given the fact that I've seen dancers use a variety of forms within a variety of musical compositions. And, again, Prince was always as concerned with the fashion aesthetic as he was the musical aesthetic, being careful to use dashes of various elements that allowed him to be connected to a lot of worlds while simultaneously constructing his own, unique world.

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Of course, one who doesn't like the hip hop aesthetic could argue that embracing hip hop made Prince's work less pleasing to one, but there has rarely been a time when a great artist was not influenced by something new. Since I've never been a big hip hop connoisseur, I don't really know the difference between good hip hop and bad hip hop or good emceeing and bad emceeing. As such, I was never bothered by what the Game Boyz did or even by Tony M's rapping because it was usually within and never overshadowed the essential aesthetic that I loved about Prince. So, “Call the Law” or “Push” or “The Flow” utilized emceeing but within the framework of the funk aesthetic. Prince wasn’t bending his musical form to fit hip hop, he was trying to find a way to fit hip hop into what he was already doing. That’s called growth, which is the same thing that Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock did. However, since I've always hated house music, I hate the opening of the Nude Tour because until "Kiss," iirc, the other opening songs suffer, lose their aesthetic essence, by being refashioned as house music. (Well, “The Future” isn’t so bad, but “1999” and “Housequake” are atrocious to my ears. But, hey, that’s all part of an artist trying something new. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. Then, again, I'm not as bothered by Tony M's rap in "Love 2 d 9s" as most folks because, again, while somewhat annoying --just because "Love 2 d 9s" begins as such a beautiful/soulful song--it is still within the framework or context of Prince's aesthetic whereas "Mr. Goodnight" is just a hot mess. Prince's rapping is horrible, even I can hear that, but "Chelsea Rodgers" makes up for it. Yet, that, in a nutshell, was Prince. He was always trying to find ways to mix and match all of what he loved or all of what intrigued him. Again, sometimes it worked well, and sometimes it didn’t. But, for my subjective tastes, there was always much more good than bad…well…until Hit & Run: Phase 1. Then, it’s mostly bad, but thank God for Phase 2.

Liking your work.

Thanks for those kind words.

1725topp said:

SimonCharles said:

Sorry - no idea why the font changed size!

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The font change happens to me as well sometimes. I don't know why it happens. I just learned to save and copy as I go so that when it happens I can just paste my original comments without having to retype them.

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As for the dancing of The Gam Boyz and if it fits with the Lovesexy aesthetic/theme, I guess it depends upon how one interprets/perceives that aesthetic/theme. So, comparing what you said regarding Cat, Boni, and Shelia's use of hip hop moves to The Game Boyz's use of hip hop moves, the only difference I see is the masculinity of The Game Boyz working in a way that may be too "aggressive," for lack of a better term, depending on how one interprets the spiritual theme/aesthetic of Lovesexy. That is--spirituality, as an aesthetic, tends to have--and I'm being stereotypical to make a point--a more free-flowing less rigid range of motion that symbolizes freeing oneself from physical confines whereas hip hop dance is generally aggressive with moves of "popping" and "locking" that connote a more exclamatory and masculine feel. (That does not mean that women cannot master hip hop dance, but it means that aggression, in Western terms, is often associated with masculinity, which is rarely associated with spirituality. In Western terms, to become more spiritual often means to become less aggressive, which means to become less masculine, again, speaking in a stereotypical Westernized term.) So, that may be what you are sensing/interpreting from The Game Boyz--that their movement is too aggressive and rigid for what you perceive as the more liquid or free-flowing spiritual aesthetic of Lovesexy. However, I would argue that Prince is, once again, being his princely self by showing that spirituality and spiritual expression come in many forms, making The Game Boyz a "necessary" aspect to the ultimate message he wants to articulate, which is that connection to God is a liberating act that allows anyone to express themselves in anyway. As such, the inclusion of The Game Boyz is par for the course or as typical for Prince as his "Uptown" utopian ideology of "Black, White, Puerto Rican, everybody just a freakin'." So, not to include The Game Boyz would be Prince not including every aspect of himself--which includes that aspect which is connected to what's hip in black culture at the time and always finding a way to amalgamate it with his other influences.

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In a similar way, the big drum beat and pounding bass of "Glam Slam" represents Prince's soul and funk roots whereas the use of strings atop the drum and bass provide the flowery free-flowing whimsical quality generally associated with spirituality. Then, of course, the lyrical discussion of the intersection of the physical and spiritual ties it all together. Thus, The Game Boyz seem to serve as a necessary role/symbolism about the body/physical being liberated. They are the body, the physical, the big pounding beat of the drum and bass, and Shelia, Boni, and Cat are the soul, the spiritual, the free-flowing movement of the strings and keyboards. (The electricty of the guitar connects these two elements.) And, it is that combination/intersection that is being praised/celebrated in "Glam Slam"--the notion that the body can be a gateway to the spiritual and that the spiritual can be manifest in the physical. Without The Game Boyz the physical has no symbolic representation to balance the spiritual representation of Shelia, Boni, and Cat. And, of course, Prince—through his androgyny—becomes/symbolizes the completed state of spiritual enlightenment in which the body and soul as well as the male and female become one, represented by the lovers of the song becoming one. “This thing we got it’s alive; it seems to transcend the physical.” Without The Game Boyz where is the representation of the physical that must be transcended or blended with the spiritual to complete the spiritual enlightenment?

That is beautifully put. Thank you for taking the time to put your argument so eloquently and convincingly. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree but it has been a pleasure to read your words and hear you engage with this discussion.

I'm going to have to go away and have a think about how to express my opinion as descriptively...I don't think I have properly explained myself.

I don't really think it's a jump the shark moment, but I've always found the direction to be a bit flat, it has no energy to it. Not that Glam Slam is particularly a stomper, but the video is pretty low energy except the last third. I like the blindfold idea, Cat is cool. That's about it really. They could've done a lot more with it.

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Having Eric and Atlanta on violins is dumb, but I get the reasoning behind it - no horns and he wanted the whole band in the video. iirc, he did a similar thing with Eric in the Screams of Passion video. The Gameboyz were dorky any way you look at it, the spandex workout rompers here, nah! And we don't see enough Boni!

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I love the song, but it was a poor single choice and its chart performance reflects fairly that I think.