I've opened this discussion before, but though I open it again for new comments.

So yah, I always considered Prince as underground, and a little gothy. His attire looked traditional/ Victorian goth, which is really cool, but not all in black. His Grafitti Bridge attire looked gothy too with the fishnets and leather jackets.

What do you think?

I would not describe Prince as a goth.

"Would you describe Prince as goth?" --- No.

1980-1981 Prince yes

There were periods where his style reflected it but not the real essence of Goth

You could never put any label on Prince He did his own thing.

SoftSkarlettLovisa said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

1980-1981 Prince yes

There were periods where his style reflected it but not the real essence of Goth

Thank you

laurarichardson said:

SoftSkarlettLovisa said:

I've opened this discussion before, but though I open it again for new comments.

So yah, I always considered Prince as underground, and a little gothy. His attire looked traditional/ Victorian goth, which is really cool, but not all in black. His Grafitti Bridge attire looked gothy too with the fishnets and leather jackets.

What do you think?

Different periods of his career he went Goth.

I agree with you. There was a period in the '90's that was very Goth to me. When he wore the big hats and his beard was chiseled to perfection.

If you look at the definition of Goth, "a subculture of people who originally listened to Goth music, now increased to include black/death metal followers, they are morbid, wearing black clothes almost always, and wearing make-up regardless of sex". It just does not fit Prince in any era.

No, I would not decribe Prince as goth. He was colourfull and a chameleon. Not someone you can catagorize.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

laurarichardson said:

SoftSkarlettLovisa said: Different periods of his career he went Goth.

I agree with you. There was a period in the '90's that was very Goth to me. When he wore the big hats and his beard was chiseled to perfection.

that doesnt constitute goth

Would I call him a goth the way I'd call Marilyn Manson or the fourteen year-olds outside the convenience store goth? No. But...

Prince dabbled with gothic aesthetics/imagery from time to time: the Batdance video, the castles that show up in "Darling Nikki" and "Pheromone," his BDSM themed stuff gets gothy from time to time. Even then I don't hear him mimicking goth artists, except maybe the heavy industrial beat on Pheromone.

rdhull said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

I agree with you. There was a period in the '90's that was very Goth to me. When he wore the big hats and his beard was chiseled to perfection.

that doesnt constitute goth

I didn't say it did. I mearly stated a point of reference.

Wlcm2thdwn3 said:

mtlfan said:

Would I call him a goth the way I'd call Marilyn Manson or the fourteen year-olds outside the convenience store goth? No. But...

Prince dabbled with gothic aesthetics/imagery from time to time: the Batdance video, the castles that show up in "Darling Nikki" and "Pheromone," his BDSM themed stuff gets gothy from time to time. Even then I don't hear him mimicking goth artists, except maybe the heavy industrial beat on Pheromone.

...and punk and so many other things.

But ultimately P mixed and matched and mismatched so many aesthetic elements that the end results were so unique to him that even when he gets copied...it never feels quite the same.

Or is it just me?

No. Not at all.

He could pass for Goth in a Hollywood Teen film if that's the standard we're talking about.

The short answer is no. Prince was not goth, he did not neatly fit within this category.

The longer answer is that Prince was so eclectic and expansive in his tastes you could see some elements that could connect with Goth.

I would consider Come his Goth album. He has announced the death of Prince and is in front of a foreboding Gothic Cathedral. It is a funky album and a favorite of mine. I would consider it a funk album with dance electronica influences. Something the vampires in the Blade movie would not have hated. The overall mood is somber with the dance influenced Loose, Pheremone and Come (in particular the remixes). The hair, makeup and outfits certainly have a goth resonance with the photography being particularly striking. An honorable mention goes to the Batman album. Just look at the end of the full video of Partyman. At the end of the video it is clear to me after a party filled with revelry and funk he has just KILLED by poisoning all of the party guests and leaving them laughing as the Joker/Partyman (no Goth is not about murder or Swedish black metal but it has dark subject matter, I can see the Partyman video being like a funked up version of Edgar Allan Poe's "Masque of the Red Death" where the privileged rich are disposed of by a mysterious figure.)

I think previous posters have described some of the Goth fashion that Prince adapted to his look. The punky Dirty Mind era with the long coat, the stockings is punk/goth to some extent. The frock coats, the leather gloves he frequently sported. The use of nettings in clothes such as his pants have netting/stocking elements. The Grafitti bridge look was a brilliant call, look at the evil eye shadow he is using at times below his eyes or on his eyelids. I believe this continued onto Batman and may have even had a start in Lovesexy with his coats and the style of his hair with the thick untamed mane of hair and the more natural hence bestial eyebrows compared to a more contoured look.

I would say the 90's look with the extremely pale makeup and skinny look (was he sick, was he on drugs people asked at the time.) the gloves the ornate suits and the canes certainly was goth at times (all the while he was playing with dayglo RnB and hip hop looks at the same time. I always felt the TYPHOON, the pencil moustache and his sideburns at times was fairly goth.

It was surprising to see Morris Day mention the Cure in an interview when talking about Ice Cream Castles (It was the atmospheric sound he mentioned). The Gary Newman influence is well established and the Hounds of love by Kate Bush may not be Goth but is certainly goth friendly and would have a crossover of Goth fans. I always thought the crossover between Prince fans and Bowie, the Cure and NIN was no coincidence. Some sensibilities are shared.

Prince music that has a Goth feel

1) Moonbeam levels (Misnomered a better place to die, I feel Prince's preoccupation with death not in a disturbing sense but rather as a cycle of life and spirituality is Goth here.)

2) Others here with us (The gothic horror of ghosts, death and hanging, OR Prince with the Bela Lugosi look just like in UTCM, telling ghost stories?

3) Dance with the Devil (Some stunning atmospherics and keyboard sounds here)

4) Annie Christian (Antichrist? Annie Christian is the evil that dwells unexplainably in the heart of man, why are schools shot up, bombs let off, or wars undertaken)

5) Loose, Pheromone, Papa (Papa could be a southern gothic story but it's more than that it's personal - "Don't abuse children or they turn out like me" - wow it means if you abuse kids they grow up to be adults who are haunted by abuse that will be a spectre in all their future relationships. To quote Francis L in Purple Rain "Never get married") Loose has a dark wave vibe, and Pheremone is so underrated.

6) Poom Poom Poom, Strange But True, Erotic City, Irresistible Bitch. Yeah I did say Poom Poom Poom, this is not your Sisters of Mercy, Fields of Nephilim, Alien Sex Fiend Goth, and I may be reaching, but there is a darkness in these songs. Irresistible Bitch, has a controlling self-destructive relationship vibe that cannot be ignored.

7) Slave, Joint 2 Joint, The rhythm and the feel. I am starting to edit myself as this is becoming a long post.

8) The Dance Electric, and 1999. The Dance Electric is a demon groove, and so undiscovered by non or casual fans.

9) The whole Black Album. Bob George (a ebon dark tale of suicide by cop?) Superfunkycalifragisexy is a sex drug symphony, Rockhard in a funky place.

10) Shockadelic (The girl must be a witch) And my absolute fave the funk version of Witness and all its Camille goodness. Yess!

In summation I may be wrong, but if I am I don't want to be write. I see the Prince references to death, depression, madness and spirituality to be very, very goth. Purple Rain isn't about success (by Graffiti bridge he is struggling and his dad is dead) it's about finding away from self destruction and hurting the ones he loves. The atmosphere and the edge in Prince's music along with his edgy take on fashion gives him a goth sensibility. The fact his song can have a goth tinge (like oldfriends for sale) yet still have an ouvert funk or soul or even hip hop vein showed how Prince could take influences and not blatantly steal them. He made creole music, always a fusion, always deeply personal. As somebody who dabbled in Goth, I think the Goth was always there in Prince and music for those who looked for it.

[Edited 6/3/17 16:42pm]

robertgeorge said:

The short answer is no. Prince was not goth, he did not neatly fit within this category.

The longer answer is that Prince was so eclectic and expansive in his tastes you could see some elements that could connect with Goth.

I would consider Come his Goth album. He has announced the death of Prince and is in front of a foreboding Gothic Cathedral. It is a funky album and a favorite of mine. I would consider it a funk album with dance electronica influences. Something the vampires in the Blade movie would not have hated. The overall mood is somber with the dance influenced Loose, Pheremone and Come (in particular the remixes). The hair, makeup and outfits certainly have a goth resonance with the photography being particularly striking. An honorable mention goes to the Batman album. Just look at the end of the full video of Partyman. At the end of the video it is clear to me after a party filled with revelry and funk he has just KILLED by poisoning all of the party guests and leaving them laughing as the Joker/Partyman (no Goth is not about murder or Swedish black metal but it has dark subject matter, I can see the Partyman video being like a funked up version of Edgar Allan Poe's "Masque of the Red Death" where the privileged rich are disposed of by a mysterious figure.)

I think previous posters have described some of the Goth fashion that Prince adapted to his look. The punky Dirty Mind era with the long coat, the stockings is punk/goth to some extent. The frock coats, the leather gloves he frequently sported. The use of nettings in clothes such as his pants have netting/stocking elements. The Grafitti bridge look was a brilliant call, look at the evil eye shadow he is using at times below his eyes or on his eyelids. I believe this continued onto Batman and may have even had a start in Lovesexy with his coats and the style of his hair with the thick untamed mane of hair and the more natural hence bestial eyebrows compared to a more contoured look.

I would say the 90's look with the extremely pale makeup and skinny look (was he sick, was he on drugs people asked at the time.) the gloves the ornate suits and the canes certainly was goth at times (all the while he was playing with dayglo RnB and hip hop looks at the same time. I always felt the TYPHOON, the pencil moustache and his sideburns at times was fairly goth.

It was surprising to see Morris Day mention the Cure in an interview when talking about Ice Cream Castles (It was the atmospheric sound he mentioned). The Gary Newman influence is well established and the Hounds of love by Kate Bush may not be Goth but is certainly goth friendly and would have a crossover of Goth fans. I always thought the crossover between Prince fans and Bowie, the Cure and NIN was no coincidence. Some sensibilities are shared.

Prince music that has a Goth feel

1) Moonbeam levels (Misnomered a better place to die, I feel Prince's preoccupation with death not in a disturbing sense but rather as a cycle of life and spirituality is Goth here.)

2) Others here with us (The gothic horror of ghosts, death and hanging, OR Prince with the Bela Lugosi look just like in UTCM, telling ghost stories?

3) Dance with the Devil (Some stunning atmospherics and keyboard sounds here)

4) Annie Christian (Antichrist? Annie Christian is the evil that dwells unexplainably in the heart of man, why are schools shot up, bombs let off, or wars undertaken)

5) Loose, Pheromone, Papa (Papa could be a southern gothic story but it's more than that it's personal - "Don't abuse children or they turn out like me" - wow it means if you abuse kids they grow up to be adults who are haunted by abuse that will be a spectre in all their future relationships. To quote Francis L in Purple Rain "Never get married") Loose has a dark wave vibe, and Pheremone is so underrated.

6) Poom Poom Poom, Strange But True, Erotic City, Irresistible Bitch. Yeah I did say Poom Poom Poom, this is not your Sisters of Mercy, Fields of Nephilim, Alien Sex Fiend Goth, and I may be reaching, but there is a darkness in these songs. Irresistible Bitch, has a controlling self-destructive relationship vibe that cannot be ignored.

7) Slave, Joint 2 Joint, The rhythm and the feel. I am starting to edit myself as this is becoming a long post.

8) The Dance Electric, and 1999. The Dance Electric is a demon groove, and so undiscovered by non or casual fans.

9) The whole Black Album. Bob George (a ebon dark tale of suicide by cop?) Superfunkycalifragisexy is a sex drug symphony, Rockhard in a funky place.

10) Shockadelic (The girl must be a witch) And my absolute fave the funk version of Witness and all its Camille goodness. Yess!

In summation I may be wrong, but if I am I don't want to be write. I see the Prince references to death, depression, madness and spirituality to be very, very goth. Purple Rain isn't about success (by Graffiti bridge he is struggling and his dad is dead) it's about finding away from self destruction and hurting the ones he loves. The atmosphere and the edge in Prince's music along with his edgy take on fashion gives him a goth sensibility. The fact his song can have a goth tinge (like oldfriends for sale) yet still have an ouvert funk or soul or even hip hop vein showed how Prince could take influences and not blatantly steal them. He made creole music, always a fusion, always deeply personal. As somebody who dabbled in Goth, I think the Goth was always there in Prince and music for those who looked for it.

[Edited 6/3/17 16:42pm]

not goth

Then you obviously would prefer my first answer (hint it is the first couple of sentences I posted)

rdhull said:

robertgeorge said:

The short answer is no. Prince was not goth, he did not neatly fit within this category.

The longer answer is that Prince was so eclectic and expansive in his tastes you could see some elements that could connect with Goth.

I would consider Come his Goth album. He has announced the death of Prince and is in front of a foreboding Gothic Cathedral. It is a funky album and a favorite of mine. I would consider it a funk album with dance electronica influences. Something the vampires in the Blade movie would not have hated. The overall mood is somber with the dance influenced Loose, Pheremone and Come (in particular the remixes). The hair, makeup and outfits certainly have a goth resonance with the photography being particularly striking. An honorable mention goes to the Batman album. Just look at the end of the full video of Partyman. At the end of the video it is clear to me after a party filled with revelry and funk he has just KILLED by poisoning all of the party guests and leaving them laughing as the Joker/Partyman (no Goth is not about murder or Swedish black metal but it has dark subject matter, I can see the Partyman video being like a funked up version of Edgar Allan Poe's "Masque of the Red Death" where the privileged rich are disposed of by a mysterious figure.)

I think previous posters have described some of the Goth fashion that Prince adapted to his look. The punky Dirty Mind era with the long coat, the stockings is punk/goth to some extent. The frock coats, the leather gloves he frequently sported. The use of nettings in clothes such as his pants have netting/stocking elements. The Grafitti bridge look was a brilliant call, look at the evil eye shadow he is using at times below his eyes or on his eyelids. I believe this continued onto Batman and may have even had a start in Lovesexy with his coats and the style of his hair with the thick untamed mane of hair and the more natural hence bestial eyebrows compared to a more contoured look.

I would say the 90's look with the extremely pale makeup and skinny look (was he sick, was he on drugs people asked at the time.) the gloves the ornate suits and the canes certainly was goth at times (all the while he was playing with dayglo RnB and hip hop looks at the same time. I always felt the TYPHOON, the pencil moustache and his sideburns at times was fairly goth.

It was surprising to see Morris Day mention the Cure in an interview when talking about Ice Cream Castles (It was the atmospheric sound he mentioned). The Gary Newman influence is well established and the Hounds of love by Kate Bush may not be Goth but is certainly goth friendly and would have a crossover of Goth fans. I always thought the crossover between Prince fans and Bowie, the Cure and NIN was no coincidence. Some sensibilities are shared.

Prince music that has a Goth feel

1) Moonbeam levels (Misnomered a better place to die, I feel Prince's preoccupation with death not in a disturbing sense but rather as a cycle of life and spirituality is Goth here.)

2) Others here with us (The gothic horror of ghosts, death and hanging, OR Prince with the Bela Lugosi look just like in UTCM, telling ghost stories?

3) Dance with the Devil (Some stunning atmospherics and keyboard sounds here)

4) Annie Christian (Antichrist? Annie Christian is the evil that dwells unexplainably in the heart of man, why are schools shot up, bombs let off, or wars undertaken)

5) Loose, Pheromone, Papa (Papa could be a southern gothic story but it's more than that it's personal - "Don't abuse children or they turn out like me" - wow it means if you abuse kids they grow up to be adults who are haunted by abuse that will be a spectre in all their future relationships. To quote Francis L in Purple Rain "Never get married") Loose has a dark wave vibe, and Pheremone is so underrated.

6) Poom Poom Poom, Strange But True, Erotic City, Irresistible Bitch. Yeah I did say Poom Poom Poom, this is not your Sisters of Mercy, Fields of Nephilim, Alien Sex Fiend Goth, and I may be reaching, but there is a darkness in these songs. Irresistible Bitch, has a controlling self-destructive relationship vibe that cannot be ignored.

7) Slave, Joint 2 Joint, The rhythm and the feel. I am starting to edit myself as this is becoming a long post.

8) The Dance Electric, and 1999. The Dance Electric is a demon groove, and so undiscovered by non or casual fans.

9) The whole Black Album. Bob George (a ebon dark tale of suicide by cop?) Superfunkycalifragisexy is a sex drug symphony, Rockhard in a funky place.

10) Shockadelic (The girl must be a witch) And my absolute fave the funk version of Witness and all its Camille goodness. Yess!

In summation I may be wrong, but if I am I don't want to be write. I see the Prince references to death, depression, madness and spirituality to be very, very goth. Purple Rain isn't about success (by Graffiti bridge he is struggling and his dad is dead) it's about finding away from self destruction and hurting the ones he loves. The atmosphere and the edge in Prince's music along with his edgy take on fashion gives him a goth sensibility. The fact his song can have a goth tinge (like oldfriends for sale) yet still have an ouvert funk or soul or even hip hop vein showed how Prince could take influences and not blatantly steal them. He made creole music, always a fusion, always deeply personal. As somebody who dabbled in Goth, I think the Goth was always there in Prince and music for those who looked for it.

[Edited 6/3/17 16:42pm]

not goth

Then define what is Goth...specifically.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

rdhull said:

not goth

Then define what is Goth...specifically.

Do your own research.

Here's a hint..its beyond wearing black clothing and a song here n there.

I never considered Prince to be Goth. The Cure, yes. Prince, Umm, No!

rdhull said:

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Then define what is Goth...specifically.

Do your own research.

Here's a hint..its beyond wearing black clothing and a song here n there.

I would actually be curious to hear your definition of what is Goth. Frankly "do your own research" like posting "not goth" ad infinitum is unhelpful, lazy and suggests rather than coming off like some ground zero Goth authoritarian figure, you simply are too vacuous to string any meaningful discourse together to advance the discussion.

"Here's a hint", to borrow from your trollish dialect, assuming that people posting here think Goth is just "wearing black clothing and a song here n there" is the kind of snide comment that is one step removed from labeling another poster a maternal basement dweller. As such it is more a reflection of your tolerance of other people and opinions rather than a legitimization of your depth of knowledge.

My knowledge of the Goth genre is that it is very hard to define. Many of the pioneers of the genre are often ill at ease with even considering themselves Gothic (perhaps because of the limitations that the media and even the fanbase imposed of them.) Equally since Gothic music developed at a musically rich time in which punk, post-punk, new wave amongst other genres were developing it is not that easy to define.

So if you would like to contribute something rather than indolent condemnation, you may create an intriguing post rather than kicking over sand castles. I freely admit this topic is reaching. But it is an interesting question, does Prince have any Goth influence. What do you THINK? If not why not?

robertgeorge said:

the COME album lil bitty era could have gone that way
It would have been interesting to see what Prince would do with a Gothic era

OldFriends4Sale said:

rdhull said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

the COME album lil bitty era could have gone that way
It would have been interesting to see what Prince would do with a Gothic era

I attribute the Come era and ideas art to the Trent Rezner rise

I think you are right that NIN was a big influence here, and it fits the time frame of when he was interested in Trent, after Pretty Hate Machine up to about Emancipation, where Trent thought Prince snubbed him when they met each other.

Just re your last post rdhull, no hard feelings. I wish you the best, everybody has stressful times. I would be interested in your comments about Goth when you have time to share with us.