mano said:

The ruling doesn't apply to the single?????

http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop/7767922/prince-deliverance-single-for-sale-ep-restraining-order

https://deliverance.is/athand

[Edited 4/21/17 20:43pm]

I saw that, sound crazy. So I can start selling all sorts of bootlegs and they can't get them takenoff sale if I've already started selling?

coldasice said:

Genesia said:

Do you really think this "schism" is a recent, PPD (Post Prince's Death) phenomenon? It all harkens back to the debate over bootlegs, which has raged unabated for years.

The Org. Is all newbies now.

Some of us are veterans. But it's mostly just nasty postings on here now. I post a lot less because of that. Mods need to bring out the ban hammer more.

BTW..F u to the bootleggers who watered down ALL the releases since the beginning.....

TheEnglishGent said:

I was going to type 'cool story bro'. But couldn't be arsed. The irony of imitating a viral replicant for lowest common denominator cultural memes on a site dedicated to one of western civilisation's true originals of the species would be lost. But good luck with fantasy and hope, it gets most of us through the night. Prince is tiny knobs of bone and dust furnishing a breathtakingly garish mould of cheap plastic iconography dangling like a moon forever affrcting the gravity in the self-made prison he called home. And there the story ends. Electrostar said:

I suspect this whole thing is a piece of Prince style marketing carefully written down for others to execute should he die.

JudasLChrist said:

This isn't that complex. If there's money to be made from Prince music, it needs to go to support the estate. The Estate is keeping Paisley Park open, and taking care of Prince's archive. For an engineer to 'finish' and expand some recordings he had access to, and then release that as an 'EP'... that's money grubbing.

Ideally, I would like my money to go to the Estate in order to keep PP open. But the Estate has only released one album/compliation, 4Ever.

.

What is most frustrating for me is that I can't even buy a new hard copy of some of his Warner Brothers era albums on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, or FYE, namely Diamonds and Pearls and . The only place to buy a new copy of Diamonds and Pearls and is on iTunes. Amazon doesn't sell them. Barnes and Noble doesn't sell them. FYE doesn't sell them. Diamonds and Pearls was a multi-platinum album, and (one of if not) his most commercially successful album of the 1990s. And I can't buy a hard copy of it, I had to buy it on iTunes. I want the freaking hard copy with the CD and the booklet!

.

And forget finding a new copy of Emancipation or Musicology, because it's not happening now that his full catalogue isn't on Tidal anymore. So guess where I find songs from Emancipation...on YouTube. (And there are quite a few of them on there.) But I would much rather spend the money and have my own new copy of Emancipation, except that I don't have access to it. There is a market for Prince's music, but for many of his albums, there is a lack of official supply. So then fans find a way to access his music via bootlegs or unauthorized YouTube videos. The Estate could fix this situation, but it hasen't. Shaking my head.

.

All I can say is thank goodness for Spotify! Now I can stream most of his WB music. And instead of playing my albums on iTunes, I listen to his albums on Spotify (including the albums that I own) so the Estate gets a little bit of money.

[Edited 4/22/17 20:13pm]

Tyka seems ok and Prince apparently cared about her, so glad she is getting some of the money but I don't really care about the siblings that he didn't talk to for 20 years. However, the estate needs the money so it can pay taxes and keep Paisley open and not sell every single song for deoderant commercials, etc. And of course we want to support whatever is released, so we will get more.

So I still don't care about bootlegs, whether you buy them or not, but the point is to buy what the estate puts out, unless it is really worthless and the must send a message. But the PR package seems just fine and worth the $ easily, although could have been better

coldasice said:

Genesia said:

Do you really think this "schism" is a recent, PPD (Post Prince's Death) phenomenon? It all harkens back to the debate over bootlegs, which has raged unabated for years.

The Org. Is all newbies now.

Prince's music needs newbies who get turned on to his music so his legacy can stay alive. What do you have against that?

ForceofNature said:

coldasice said:

Genesia said: The Org. Is all newbies now.

Prince's music needs newbies who get turned on to his music so his legacy can stay alive. What do you have against that?

It's all about snobbery when some of the long time orgers diss the newbies. Don't take it personally i have been a Prince fan since 1980 but still get called a newbie because of the date i joined the org. New fans of all ages will keep his legacy alive in the future and on top of that Prince was for the inclusion of everybody of any age or background.

[Edited 4/23/17 1:52am]

Electrostar said:

TheEnglishGent said:

I saw that, sound crazy. So I can start selling all sorts of bootlegs and they can't get them takenoff sale if I've already started selling?

I suspect this whole thing is a piece of Prince style marketing carefully written down for others to execute should he die. The single is legally released but the EP is not? That's not a legal oversight, c'mon! That's planned. Smells like Prince-style marketing to me.. and the EP gets officially released in the not to distant future? Whipping up controversy even when he's gone. What a star. On another note, the aggressive arguments on this forum are very childish and boring. Sounds like kids screaming at their parents in a toyshop. Be glad for what you have, anything else is a bonus.

Agree. That wa my first thought, because, let's face it, that sopund engineer could have simply filled in court to get paid any moneys due. He took a huge risk by putting this out there, everybody knows the Estate would fall hard on anyone doing something like this. I think this was carefully planned, for some reason.

MMJas said:

XxAxX said:

bonatoc said:

It will soon become obvious that this is a masterpiece on SOTT levels.
In under 15 minutes. EP of the year.

I say let's make a Kickstarter and pay for the trial.
Just to show them how stupid they are for not opening The Vault.
year-over-year marketing plans belong to the past century.

This was a bold, brave and up-yours move,
because they made it public, and now it's all the buzz rage,
but in this precise case the record deserves it.
And therefore the act is justified.

It's not just the music, it's the message.
Prince listened to us, he was hurt at first probably,
but "Deliverance" is the result of harsh commentaries
on his preachings on TRC, little doubt.
And we get this gem of belief in return. Holy (Spirit) Cow.

[Edited 4/20/17 12:58pm]

agree

agree

Guitarhero said:

ForceofNature said:

Prince's music needs newbies who get turned on to his music so his legacy can stay alive. What do you have against that?

It's all about snobbery when some of the long time orgers diss the newbies. Don't take it personally i have been a Prince fan since 1980 but still get called a newbie because of the date i joined the org. New fans of all ages will keep his legacy alive in the future and on top of that Prince was for the inclusion of everybody of any age or background.

[Edited 4/23/17 1:52am]

Yes ..Im a newbie too....

The org was too scary for me until he left us..I had to overcome that fear or die from longing to be with People WHO understood...

anyway...

to be honest..I dont give a damn who profits out of Princes Music..

WOuld love to sit on my Idealistic Throne wearing Lilac coloured glasses hoping that some one with a bit of heart finds a way to funnel the enormous amount of money thats potntially THERE into some worthy causes...but jackals dont have any conscience...

He is not here to claim what is rightfully his..

.Let all those lazy arsed opportunists fight and squabble..

Just let the Music OUT..

World needs to hear it....

Lovejunky said:

jaypotton said:

Lovejunky said:

Yes ..Im a newbie too....

The org was too scary for me until he left us..I had to overcome that fear or die from longing to be with People WHO understood...

anyway...

to be honest..I dont give a damn who profits out of Princes Music..

WOuld love to sit on my Idealistic Throne wearing Lilac coloured glasses hoping that some one with a bit of heart finds a way to funnel the enormous amount of money thats potntially THERE into some worthy causes...but jackals dont have any conscience...

He is not here to claim what is rightfully his..

.Let all those lazy arsed opportunists fight and squabble..

Just let the Music OUT..

World needs to hear it....

With you on the charity angle. Sadly, as you say, that will not happen as too many people want/need to make money. If Prince had left a Will donating his estate to charity that would have been cool! He didn't! The single best way to get the music out is to support the estate!

Yeah....but Im getting old and cranky...and might die before I hear anything FRESH from them ?

Deliverance was like a sneaky little Gift...

I look at it as a Bootleg...Unauthorised and unapproved,

slipped through the cracks of heaven

I really dont think Prince cared what happened after he passed..

he said one day hed like to give his music away..

Maybe NO will was his way of doing that....

Lovejunky said:

jaypotton said:

Lovejunky said:

Yeah....but Im getting old and cranky...and might die before I hear anything FRESH from them ?

Deliverance was like a sneaky little Gift...

I look at it as a Bootleg...Unauthorised and unapproved,

slipped through the cracks of heaven

I really dont think Prince cared what happened after he passed..

he said one day hed like to give his music away..

Maybe NO will was his way of doing that....

Yes and that would be cool if Ian Boxill had given it away for free. Except he didn't! He tried to earn money from it without having the right to do so.

So ?

He is still living and has bills to pay.

He wasnt stealing anything that anybody else put energy into...

It was HIS work and Princes work..

Prince is gone..Let Ian make something. he worked hard on it..

Theres plenty more for the Estate to profit from without having to jump on all the little people ..

Same thing goes for Youtube channels...let them be...Its a different playing field now...

jaypotton said:

MMJas said:

Agree. That wa my first thought, because, let's face it, that sopund engineer could have simply filled in court to get paid any moneys due. He took a huge risk by putting this out there, everybody knows the Estate would fall hard on anyone doing something like this. I think this was carefully planned, for some reason.

I hadn't considered this but can a) understand the appeal of this theory to some a Prince fans and b) see how it could be the sort of thing Prince planned except... These are songs from a decade ago. That would require some amazing foresight by Prince into what he wanted to do with those songs in future AND know he was going to die but not for another ten years!? So I don't buy it even though I can understand the appeal to some. As such I have to say I think this is more a case of post rationalisation to justify why some have bought it even though they know it is wrong! Just my opinion obviously!

I understand the rational, of course. But consider this: what if Prince told him to just release the stuff one day, when he was no longer here? I mean, did he not know the sound engineer had the masters to those songs? Yet he allowed him to keep them?
There's always so many angles to these stories...

jaypotton said:

The level of naïveté and sheer craziness of some people on here never ceases to amaze me even after nearly 20 years! The excuses some people give to explain away their addiction are just incredible and no different then if their addiction was crack rather than Prince's music! Some SANE people on this thread have already said this but I will add my two pence worth because it is simple... 1. There are OFFICIAL releases. 2. There are UNOFFICIAL releases. Official releases should be curated properly and released with the care, quality and attention Prince's legacy deserves. To do that people need to be paid (record company and estate) to ensure it remains a viable business so the releases keep flowing (but we need to realise the law of diminishing returns). Unofficial releases will happen and fans will want to get hold of them (just as we did with bootlegs) BUT NOBODY should get paid for these. Track them down and get hold of them for free by all means but do not support anyone trying to cash in (like all those unofficial releases you can now get from Amazon!) I personally have hundreds of unofficially released Prince tracks of mixed quality. I will definitely buy these in pristine quality when they are officially released because I want that perfect Prince collection but in the meantime I still get a kick out of hearing the bootleg versions (that I have never paid any money for). This guy Ian Boxhill (is that his name) could have just released this for free but he is looking for a payday (hiding behind the fact that this was "for the fans"). He may have a genuine claim for money from the estate if Prince didn't pay him for his Engineer work, but if so then he should have put that in as a claim to the estate as a creditor (yes it will take years to get his fee). Instead he secretly worked on this material for personal commercial gain. He MUST have known the estate's lawyers and Universal Music Publishing would shut him down??? And what about the digital platforms like iTunes and Amazon? Do they not question the RIGHTS issues before making content available? Not saying I don't want to have these tracks, I do, but will not/did not pay for them! AND if they get an official release in future I will buy them and won't whine about it (am hoping for. Vault release collecting those 2006-2008 sessions together! [Edited 4/21/17 1:04am] [Edited 4/21/17 1:07am]

Exactly

jaypotton said:

Lovejunky said:

Yeah....but Im getting old and cranky...and might die before I hear anything FRESH from them ?

Deliverance was like a sneaky little Gift...

I look at it as a Bootleg...Unauthorised and unapproved,

slipped through the cracks of heaven

I really dont think Prince cared what happened after he passed..

he said one day hed like to give his music away..

Maybe NO will was his way of doing that....

Yes and that would be cool if Ian Boxill had given it away for free. Except he didn't! He tried to earn money from it without having the right to do so.

True, and that's my main problem with it. But remember, Prince did tell his hairstylist Kim that she should ask for more money from her clients, to cash in on the fact that she was his hairstylist to earn more money. Prince was very much aware of the value of all things Prince related/connected.

jaypotton said:

The other thing I personally find distasteful is the way many Prince fans have attacked Prince's heirs. Only Prince is to blame for the mess we have at the moment by not leaving a Will. He knew his family would end up fighting over the estate and if he cared about his "creations" he should have made suitable provision for them. He didn't (arguably he might have in terms of the 2014 Warners deal but that is less than half his catalogue) so the estate is what we have and it is their right to handle this how they see fit. Personally I think we should stop slagging them and do our best to support so that WE get what we all want which is ALL the music released at some point (we can argue over personal preference for how to release but the aim is to release rather than leave in the vault). [Edited 4/23/17 4:27am]

Prince's desire to always be moving towards his next thing is understandable in terms of his artistic mind but it sure led him to leave messes behind in terms of securing his legacy, helping his family sort this mess out (especially if he knew he may die soon), and discarding people that he worked with once he didn't need them musically (at least in the old days).

Lovejunky said:

djThunderfunk said:

I don't know about a "schism", but, both Deliverance and the track listing for Purple Rain Deluxe have definitely highlighted a problem on the org.

People talk about the estate & WB and how they should cater to the fans while proving that is IMPOSSIBLE because we, "the fans", hardly agree.

So much venom and bile is not necessary, and takes a lot of fun out of the discussion. Seems everybody has their own personal vision of what/how should be released, which is fine and normal with Prince's music. What's not fine or normal is how most of us communicate with each other around here. So many think that their opinions are facts and vicously attack those that aren't in agreement. Rudeness and nastiness are commonplace.

We need to have an understanding about how the industry works AND historical knowledge of Prince and his career to balance our own personal desires with reality. So few commenting seem to possess these skills and communicate in a civil way with others who share our passions but differ in opinions.

I know, this is nothing new for the org, it just seems like the assholes are getting louder and more belligerent. We all love Prince, it's why we're here. Can't we discuss without being disrespectful?

Thank you! exactly this! This has been The Org's problem forever. It'd be nice if we could change the culture around here.

jaypotton said:

Lovejunky said:

So ?

He is still living and has bills to pay.

He wasnt stealing anything that anybody else put energy into...

It was HIS work and Princes work..

Prince is gone..Let Ian make something. he worked hard on it..

Theres plenty more for the Estate to profit from without having to jump on all the little people ..

Same thing goes for Youtube channels...let them be...Its a different playing field now...

Ok so let me put this into a real world context where all of us can better relate... You own a house. It needs decorating. You hire someone in to work on it with you. You both paint the rooms etc. However, when it comes time to pay this other person for some reason you don't! Would you expect that person to pop over to your house, change the locks while you are out and then sell the house to someone else? Or would you expect the person to perhaps take you to the small claims court to recoup the money/wages you owe them?

DD55 said:

jaypotton said:

DD55 said:

If you don't get your money you put a carpenter’s lien on the house, registered at the county office. So when the owner goes to sell the house, you get your money first! That’s why title companies do title searches to check for outstanding liens.

EXACTLY...there is a legal due process to follow to get your money. In my analogy the decorator is stealing the house.

Ok take your analogy and make it a general contractor putting an additoin on your house. If yiou don't pay, and a lien is put on you're house.... the contractor in essence 'ownes' a piece of the house, because when you sell, he gets his money before you get any equity you've built up. The GC is not stealing, he's getting his money/payment.

ForceofNature said:

coldasice said:

Genesia said: The Org. Is all newbies now.

Prince's music needs newbies who get turned on to his music so his legacy can stay alive. What do you have against that?

Guitarhero said:

ForceofNature said:

Prince's music needs newbies who get turned on to his music so his legacy can stay alive. What do you have against that?

It's all about snobbery when some of the long time orgers diss the newbies. Don't take it personally i have been a Prince fan since 1980 but still get called a newbie because of the date i joined the org. New fans of all ages will keep his legacy alive in the future and on top of that Prince was for the inclusion of everybody of any age or background.

[Edited 4/23/17 1:52am]

GH, I totally agree.

the pre internet versions of "Eye Records" certainly got LOTS of my money back in the days... and i was HAPPY AS HELL to hand it over to them!

TheEnglishGent said:

Things should be authorised and released by the estate. People just going rogue and releasing stuff because they happen to have possession of something really isn't on. Deliverance being released by somone who doesn't legally have the right to release it is no different to something being released by Eye Records.

I'm glad it got released and I'm glad to have it but I'm not going to pay a bootlegger for it. If the estate had given it their support, or if they want to put it out themselves then I'd gladly buy it. I will buy everything that's released officially as I did while Prince was alive.