laurarichardson said:

bonatoc said:

Let's not be too harsh on the estate.
It took them one year, but after so much anticipation, we finally got tamborines ugly as hell.
Uh, sorry, "tamboraccas".

I say let's all make a Kickstarter to buy some cloud servers in world regions where no one can't get their MBA's dirty hands on, and sell all of the Vault for profit to charities.
After all, we already have it, for the most part. Let's have these corporate mothafuckaz kiss his ass, m'kay.

[Edited 4/16/17 7:51am]

--This actually sounds like a good idea. At this fans and collectors could do a better job of getting the music out.

We're the true curators. We've done this for years, and brilliantly.
Per Nilsen, princevault, The Work, the iVault, Sabotage and many other brave labels, from mastering to sleeve design, so many talents have spent countless hours for free (well, not everyone) to enhance Prince's work, and I would go as far as saying, promote it. Early adopters are, by definition, always followed by late adopters.

I don't think we would have become such hardcore fans without discovering what was happening behind the scenes. I never had the chance to thank in person the fools that made tape copies and let the 84~88 unheard gems available for the curious ones.
It paved the underground artist and misunderstood genius image
Prince himself capitalized upon in the nineties.

Prince's judgement towards bootleggers was somewhat unfair: they did exactly what WB wouldn't allow him to do, getting his music out as much as possible. I would have gladly pay him or PP Records instead, but there was no alternative to the black market back then.

It's been discussed to death, and my conclusion is that WB should have made an exception for Prince, and like Columbia did for Dylan, just put out the shit and don't care about maximizing ROI. From this point of view, the massive success of Purple Rain has been a curse for what came after.

I consider 30 million bucks an aberration. That says Prince can only sell 3 million vinyl albums or any other physical support in the next century. That is ridiculous.
It is based on the theory which states that only hardcore fans will be interested in the Vault, and I refute it by saying that there's nothing to stop clever marketing.

If they manage to make Bob Marley an inescapable figure for all joint smokers (a broader base, I'll give you that), why can't they sell Prince for the musicians musician that he is?
Don't the Beatles keep on selling? Led Zep? John Lennon? It's all about selling the proper story, build the proper persona and legend. And there's nothing to make up, the guy is all substance, errors and all. For a kid who buys his first guitar or synth (or installs a cracked DAW on his laptop), it's easy to market Prince as the ultimate home-studio pionneer. The divorce trauma, the "one day I'll show them", the "me against the world" attitude, which kid does not relate?

Can't these dumb marketing bozos see these are the exact ingredients that made Purple Rain the phenomenon it's been? In a western world that is slowly winning the battle for acceptance of all sexual preferences, is it so hard to present Prince as one of the true champions of gender questioning, in times where tight-asses reigned supreme?

Prince is a perfect example of the long tail. You always hear someone who comes to the realization that beyond the unnerving attitude and extravaganzas, lies the more generous, inventive, audacious pop musician there ever was.
Every true music lover comes to this conclusion (or a slightly less radical one), once they're presented the full spectrum. It's only bad, lazy marketing that results in Prince known only for WDC, PR and LRC. To get Prince in its entirety requires work, but them MBA punks still focus on the only record that brought big money, persuaded it can bring more money (see "Star Wars", a perfect example of milking a concept to death, corrupting its very essence and disgusting everyone with a tad of good taste in movies). Such is capitalism applied to arts.

We're far from seeing a long-term politics at work in record companies (or what's left of them). Instead of focusing on the musical qualities, the cultural/societal progress Prince brought, the TV shows and a large part of the web articles I read at the approach of the first anniversary rehash the same useless blurbs, and keep Prince in this unattractive posture of a reclusive, excentric nutcase à la Howard Hughes.

But as Leonard Cohen wrote:

Now, I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?

Like people around the world slowly realizing that they're the ones in power, that their capabilities are not doomed to be just a commodity for the Corporate World, so should all Prince fans with abilities and good will, even if the most courageous paved the way decades ago.

[Edited 4/16/17 17:43pm]

^ with all due respect, i doubt prince would EVER approve af his fans distributing bootlegs. period. remember, he shut down the websites that did what you propose doing. he went after individual distributors. he HATED bootlegs. just my 2c

XxAxX said:

^ with all due respect, i doubt prince would EVER approve af his fans distributing bootlegs. period. remember, he shut down the websites that did what you propose doing. he went after individual distributors. he HATED bootlegs. just my 2c

I know.
Could be because he felt (rightfully) being stolen.
Could be because he could not quality proof his own work before it got out in the wild.
Could be because nobody asked him first.

Whatever it is, here we are, discussing the release of Moonbeam Levels like it's old news (every serious fan already knew the song). There he was promoting the Black Album during the Lovesexy Tour, on the program and on the stage (Superfunkycalifragisexy, Bob George). There he was reprising outtakes on stage, not surprised that most in the audience knew the song ("Empty Room", etc.).

The Prince mystique wouldn't even exist as we know it without the bootlegs. Every article on SOTT nowadays mentions "Camille", "Dream Factory" and "Crystal Ball". Controversy. As usual.

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

I know almost nothing about what's going on with the estate, mainly because I'm not particularly interested in all this businessy shit (not why I got into Prince's music), but does this mean that the Purple Rain deluxe edition might be delayed or cancelled?

That's not affected by this.

bonatoc said:

laurarichardson said:

bonatoc said: --This actually sounds like a good idea. At this fans and collectors could do a better job of getting the music out.

We're the true curators. We've done this for years, and brilliantly.
Per Nilsen, princevault, The Work, the iVault, Sabotage and many other brave labels, from mastering to sleeve design, so many talents have spent countless hours for free (well, not everyone) to enhance Prince's work, and I would go as far as saying, promote it. Early adopters are, by definition, always followed by late adopters.

I don't think we would have become such hardcore fans without discovering what was happening behind the scenes. I never had the chance to thank in person the fools that made tape copies and let the 84~88 unheard gems available for the curious ones.
It paved the underground artist and misunderstood genius image
Prince himself capitalized upon in the nineties.

Prince's judgement towards bootleggers was somewhat unfair: they did exactly what WB wouldn't allow him to do, getting his music out as much as possible. I would have gladly pay him or PP Records instead, but there was no alternative to the black market back then.

It's been discussed to death, and my conclusion is that WB should have made an exception for Prince, and like Columbia did for Dylan, just put out the shit and don't care about maximizing ROI. From this point of view, the massive success of Purple Rain has been a curse for what came after.

I consider 30 million bucks an aberration. That says Prince can only sell 3 million vinyl albums or any other physical support in the next century. That is ridiculous.
It is based on the theory which states that only hardcore fans will be interested in the Vault, and I refute it by saying that there's nothing to stop clever marketing.

If they manage to make Bob Marley an inescapable figure for all joint smokers (a broader base, I'll give you that), why can't they sell Prince for the musicians musician that he is?
Don't the Beatles keep on selling? Led Zep? John Lennon? It's all about selling the proper story, build the proper persona and legend. And there's nothing to make up, the guy is all substance, errors and all. For a kid who buys his first guitar or synth (or installs a cracked DAW on his laptop), it's easy to market Prince as the ultimate home-studio pionneer. The divorce trauma, the "one day I'll show them", the "me against the world" attitude, which kid does not relate?

Can't these dumb marketing bozos see these are the exact ingredients that made Purple Rain the phenomenon it's been? In a western world that is slowly winning the battle for acceptance of all sexual preferences, is it so hard to present Prince as one of the true champions of gender questioning, in times where tight-asses reigned supreme?

Prince is a perfect example of the long tail. You always hear someone who comes to the realization that beyond the unnerving attitude and extravaganzas, lies the more generous, inventive, audacious pop musician there ever was.
Every true music lover comes to this conclusion (or a slightly less radical one), once they're presented the full spectrum. It's only bad, lazy marketing that results in Prince known only for WDC, PR and LRC. To get Prince in its entirety requires work, but them MBA punks still focus on the only record that brought big money, persuaded it can bring more money (see "Star Wars", a perfect example of milking a concept to death, corrupting its very essence and disgusting everyone with a tad of good taste in movies). Such is capitalism applied to arts.

We're far from seeing a long-term politics at work in record companies (or what's left of them). Instead of focusing on the musical qualities, the cultural/societal progress Prince brought, the TV shows and a large part of the web articles I read at the approach of the first anniversary rehash the same useless blurbs, and keep Prince in this unattractive posture of a reclusive, excentric nutcase à la Howard Hughes.

But as Leonard Cohen wrote:

Now, I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?

Like people around the world slowly realizing that they're the ones in power, that their capabilities are not doomed to be just a commodity for the Corporate World, so should all Prince fans with abilities and good will, even if the most courageous paved the way decades ago.

[Edited 4/16/17 17:43pm]

Lovejunky said:

laurarichardson said:

Misty48 said: I think when he signed his deal with WB to get back the masters a part of the deal was that WB would get the right to license out the material. WB is going to put out greatest hits, remaster the WB albums, put out box sets, and take care of the marketing and promotion. Basically he had to give up some control to the master tapes and realize that putting out the vault material would require a outlay of cash with no gurranteed of a profit. I think he thought that working WB would be a good way to get the music out. According to the media report the rights that WB have internationaly are forever. Media reports said that the deal domestically would end in 2018. Now I am thinking that is not true and the WB deal domestically may forever as well. If this true it means Prince's wish will be honored no matter what greedy lawyers, sibs, probate court, or greedy ass ex-mangers have to say. We see soon enough to what happened but I think Prince got the last laugh.

His Genius continues..

Its a canny move on his behalf because it also guaratnees that his Music will be well circulated

The Variety article is saying each album had different terms in the deal. So I know UMG is going to take a walk now. They want to license all of the catalogue not some and I know that are not that interested in post 95 stuff at all.

This so Prince getting the last word and making provisions for his music without having a will. Meaning no contesting

[Edited 4/16/17 18:10pm]

ForeverPaisley said:

Wow, that is quite a deal if WB did get the right to block any pre-1995 release from the vault! That's HUGE.

.

No, it's quite normal.

.

But I guess it depend on how much was written/there from 1995-2016. That's another two decades after all

.

Nobody cares about that.

laurarichardson said:

By rights do they mean licensing or master tapes. If it is licensing then he made have had no choice since he wanted the master tapes. Sometimes you have to give up something to something. Anyway it means his wishes will be honored.

.

Oh for crying out loud, you lot and your "tapes". This is about RIGHTS.

BartVanHemelen said:

.

.

YOU don't care about that.

[Edited 4/17/17 12:32pm]

laurarichardson said:

Lovejunky said:

His Genius continues..

Its a canny move on his behalf because it also guaratnees that his Music will be well circulated

The Variety article is saying each album had different terms in the deal. So I know UMG is going to take a walk now. They want to license all of the catalogue not some and I know that are not that interested in post 95 stuff at all.

This so Prince getting the last word and making provisions for his music without having a will. Meaning no contesting

[Edited 4/16/17 18:10pm]

Laura -- here's a succint summary of the problem.

UMG announced in February that they had licensed the majority of Prince's recordings since 1996, including by 2018, the U.S. rights to his 1979 to 1995 releases on Warner Bros. Records, including the hit albums “1999,” “Purple Rain,” “Parade,” “Batman,” and “Diamonds and Pearls” albums.

But Prince had cut a new deal with Warner in 2014. Terms of that deal are unknown, but appear to make UMG's 2018 control of these albums less clear.

Without them, UMG appears ready to walk away and ask for a full $30 million refund. A source told Variety it is possible that Universal could revise the existing downward, but that, the source says, is unlikely.

Prince’s biggest hits are 25 to 35 years old. “Every day these assets aren’t being exploited, that’s lost money that you’ll never get back,” the source said. “And the longer they’re tied up, the more you lose.”

Source: http://www.hypebot.com/hy...deal-.html

I have said before and I will say it again -- the Estate Attorneys have a serious conflict of interest problem when they are themselves earning a commission on these deals. They should be paid a flat fee!

Ten weeks later, it turns out the deal may not be all it was cracked up to be. Sources say that representatives for the estate — including the estate’s initial, temporary administrator, Bremer Bank; Comerica Bank, its current administrator; and special advisers Charles Koppelman and L. Londell McMillan, the latter of whom led the recorded-music deal — may have misrepresented the terms of the Warner assets, and Universal may attempt to nullify the deal and seek a full refund of approximately $30 million. (The news was first report...t Journal.)

Source: http://variety.com/2017/m...202031182/

Also, UMG was taking down videos from YouTube and other websites, as it should, but was unable to properly redirect the flow of traffic to the Prince VEVO YouTube page because there are so few videos there. So the number of views has been greatly diminished and there are has been a concerted effort to implement a social media campaign that will help to build value. Without the traffic, the valuations naturally decline not to speak of the uncertainty of rights over the WB part of the catalog.

The whole thing has just been very mismanaged. At least Troy Carter is social media savvy so he can help to undo the damage. The more thorny issue is straightening out the rights pertaining to WB's part of the catalog before another auction is held. Expects future bids to be way below $30 million.

bibrose said:

laurarichardson said:

Laura -- here's a succint summary of the problem.

UMG announced in February that they had licensed the majority of Prince's recordings since 1996, including by 2018, the U.S. rights to his 1979 to 1995 releases on Warner Bros. Records, including the hit albums “1999,” “Purple Rain,” “Parade,” “Batman,” and “Diamonds and Pearls” albums.

But Prince had cut a new deal with Warner in 2014. Terms of that deal are unknown, but appear to make UMG's 2018 control of these albums less clear.

Without them, UMG appears ready to walk away and ask for a full $30 million refund. A source told Variety it is possible that Universal could revise the existing downward, but that, the source says, is unlikely.

Prince’s biggest hits are 25 to 35 years old. “Every day these assets aren’t being exploited, that’s lost money that you’ll never get back,” the source said. “And the longer they’re tied up, the more you lose.”

Source: http://www.hypebot.com/hy...deal-.html

BartVanHemelen said:

ForeverPaisley said:

Wow, that is quite a deal if WB did get the right to block any pre-1995 release from the vault! That's HUGE.

.

No, it's quite normal.

.

But I guess it depend on how much was written/there from 1995-2016. That's another two decades after all

.

Nobody cares about that.

Plenty of us care about that.

Admittedly people who want to "maximise revenue" don't but I see no reason to bend over backwards to accomodate them.

BartVanHemelen said:

jaawwnn said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Nobody cares about that.

Plenty of us care about that.

Admittedly people who want to "maximise revenue" don't but I see no reason to bend over backwards to accomodate them.

.

Plenty? I'm sure there are some. However, are there enough to put effort in remastering, deluxe rereleases and such? I wonder... the records do not have a good reputation in the music world at large and the sales of Prince albums has not been very high at all in the last 20 years. (releasing albums with newspapers for free and giving records with concert tickets does not equal sales in the sense that record companies are interested in.)

.

Are there "plenty" people that will buy/rent high priced rereleases for material in the last 20 years? I have my doubts.

mediumdry said:

jaawwnn said:

Plenty of us care about that.

Admittedly people who want to "maximise revenue" don't but I see no reason to bend over backwards to accomodate them.

.

Plenty? I'm sure there are some. However, are there enough to put effort in remastering, deluxe rereleases and such? I wonder... the records do not have a good reputation in the music world at large and the sales of Prince albums has not been very high at all in the last 20 years. (releasing albums with newspapers for free and giving records with concert tickets does not equal sales in the sense that record companies are interested in.)

.

Are there "plenty" people that will buy/rent high priced rereleases for material in the last 20 years? I have my doubts.

Evidently WB did not feel that way and no one is making any big money off of music anymore. So stop making Prince out to be the worst selling artist of all time.

laurarichardson said:

Evidently WB did not feel that way and no one is making any big money off of music anymore. So stop making Prince out to be the worst selling artist of all time.

Please stop using strawman attacks loosely based on my posts.

NorthC said:

Frank Zappa wasn't the best selling artist of all time, yet his heirs put out album after album. If there's a dedicated fan base, it's worthwile.

.

True, and I hope that there will be people that will care for the legacy and will create thoughtful releases for many years to come (although I wouldn't say no to a 500CD vault release this year). The way the record companies are going about it and the drama with the estate make me less than confident though. Still hope it might all end up ok though.

mediumdry said:

laurarichardson said:

Evidently WB did not feel that way and no one is making any big money off of music anymore. So stop making Prince out to be the worst selling artist of all time.

Please stop using strawman attacks loosely based on my posts.

You said you had your doubts.

purplethunder3121 said:

mediumdry said:

jaawwnn said:

Plenty of us care about that.

Admittedly people who want to "maximise revenue" don't but I see no reason to bend over backwards to accomodate them.

.

Plenty? I'm sure there are some. However, are there enough to put effort in remastering, deluxe rereleases and such? I wonder... the records do not have a good reputation in the music world at large and the sales of Prince albums has not been very high at all in the last 20 years. (releasing albums with newspapers for free and giving records with concert tickets does not equal sales in the sense that record companies are interested in.)

.

Are there "plenty" people that will buy/rent high priced rereleases for material in the last 20 years? I have my doubts.

Well I mean maybe they should just be put on Spotify instead of physical sales, I dunno.

Ultimately a couple of thousand people is enough. There are entire reissue labels who only sell a few hundred of the remastered albums they put out and they seem to be doing fine.

The latter-day T-Rex albums had a terrible rep from music critics for a long long time and have still been reissued multiple times because the fanbase is there, small though it may be. With no new Prince albums coming out people are going to start working their way through stuff they passed on at the time.

[Edited 4/18/17 15:42pm]

mediumdry said:

@jaawwnn That's my best case scenario, that there will be a team of people that will lovingly handle the entirety of his music. The megastardom that he had in the 80s is a bit of a curse here though, as it brings people who only care about the bottom line. I mean, the first deluxe set coming out will be Purple Rain. I would argue it is not his artistic peak, but it definitely was his commercial peak.

.

@GTsymbolover How much of his sales was from music from the last 20 years?

[Edited 4/19/17 0:02am]

universl want the 30 mil it paid for the vault.WB own all of his other material,1978-2016. Universal

most likely soughted through the vault and decided none of it would be commercial enough to make their money back with a profit so they want their money back. For us fans we might have a long long wait before anything comes out of the vault,if we see anything at all. When mj died universal bought This Is It from the mj estate for 75 mil and most certainly made their money back with profit,they were hoping the same outcome for the vault but now are uncertain.Hopefully they will sell it to someone who wants to release it.

NorthC said:

Frank Zappa wasn't the best selling artist of all time, yet his heirs put out album after album. If there's a dedicated fan base, it's worthwile.

.
And – sadly – his four kids are now fighting each other and are selling Frank's home AND studio...