Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.

Methinks thou dost protest too much. Maybe you are an exception, did you ever think of that?

How do we know Prince wasn't talking about himself (or other people he knew personally)? I think we can say with a pretty fair degree of certainty that Prince felt abandoned by his mother when she remarried. He was upset enough about it to leave her and his stepfather's home at the age of 12 - and never go back. And given his relationship track record, it's pretty clear that he was something of an emotional cripple.

Genesia said:

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.

Methinks thou dost protest too much. Maybe you are an exception, did you ever think of that?

How do we know Prince wasn't talking about himself (or other people he knew personally)? I think we can say with a pretty fair degree of certainty that Prince felt abandoned by his mother when she remarried. He was upset enough about it to leave her and his stepfather's home at the age of 12 - and never go back. And given his relationship track record, it's pretty clear that he was something of an emotional cripple.

i think, also, that he could've meant mother in a more figurative sense, maybe like 'mother figure'.

maybe he was talking about test-tube babies, even? children who literally are not born of a mother, but cultivated?

who knows...it's all sci-fi bullshit, anyhow. you is what you is.

SomeSoldier said:

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.

I think that line and the next were a dig at gay adoption. As you say, though, brilliant song, lyrically questionable at best...

I think he was saying that you need the influence of both male and female in your life to make you complete.

PeteSilas said:

my interpretation of it is pretty simple, the line about the rock is just a metaphor, not something to take literally, just like the line about John Hammond in avalanche, which wasn't historically accurate but pointed to a greater truth. Of course a rock hasn't always been there and even a scientist would know that a rock would have been volcanic lava at some point. Prince is just making a general statement about all of creation, maybe he could have done it better but he didn't. the lines about the mother and father are fairly accurate too, it doesn't mean everyone without a mother and father end up like that but that it's very likely. Overall, the song is about not having any moral compass and having no sense of cause and effect to go along with that morality, thus, "the blind leading the blind".

Also, no one has mentioned yet but several on this board are aware that this song heavily plagiarizes a miriam makeba song.

wow! someone on this board is intelligent and can think !

I agree completely.

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.

.

I was giving this some thought just the other day. I lost my Dad when I was 15, and I was thinking of the several possible psychological effects and how each person's (similar) experience can result in various outcomes.

.

I think P was likely aware that there could be other effects, but chose this to make a point within the context of the song.

.

Awesome song, incredible album.

peedub said:

Genesia said:

Methinks thou dost protest too much. Maybe you are an exception, did you ever think of that?

How do we know Prince wasn't talking about himself (or other people he knew personally)? I think we can say with a pretty fair degree of certainty that Prince felt abandoned by his mother when she remarried. He was upset enough about it to leave her and his stepfather's home at the age of 12 - and never go back. And given his relationship track record, it's pretty clear that he was something of an emotional cripple.

i think, also, that he could've meant mother in a more figurative sense, maybe like 'mother figure'.

maybe he was talking about test-tube babies, even? children who literally are not born of a mother, but cultivated?

who knows...it's all sci-fi bullshit, anyhow. you is what you is.

I didn't even think of that. Interesting idea!

NouveauDance said:

jcurley said:

From my take Prince has always been wrong this way. Evolutionists wouldn't think that rock had always been there. He argues incorrectly about science quite frequently. I sit in neither camp. I believe in God but also evolution. This all comes down to whether one believes in biblical. " truth" or something broader. The irony of Prince is he almost assumes people are as dogmatic as him. A trate that is very normal. Einstein believed in God and Evolution. The Catholic church has no issue with dismissing creationism. Evolution doesn't mean there's no God, it's more IMO a perception of time. Prince should have done more homework or at least been less sweeping. Still a brilliant sing though. Regardless of faith v secular where I do think he's right is minds can be colonized

You're right most people believe there is an uncrossable barrier between the two, maybe he did too, who knows.
There are so many things to discover, not everybody is studying the same things.

A lot of insults towards Prince, contemptious?, offensive? I thought it was a beautiful song, and he's telling it from HIS opinion. We don't have to agree, especially if it's our experience differs. But to be offended by his beliefs is... I don't know. Are we at the point where we all have to agree or be offended, nothing in between. I don't agree with some of Prince's political statements/songs but I wouldn't go so far to label them offensive. (Baltimore comes close though

Rock on the shore... always been there. no problem with this lyric, I know what he meant. maybe some are over thinking it

benni said:

I always felt Prince was saying that there was no meaning behind the Evolution Principle. Essentially, with no creator, if you were to see a rock on the shore, the idea is that it's always been there. A rock is just a rock on the shore and holds no mystery, no creation.

.

Oh please, what nonsense. That rock on the shore is possibly the result of a rock flying tens of thousands of miles through space and hitting earth. Hell, even the basic science of it all -- that we're basically stardust eminating from a big bang billions of years ago -- is just incredible.

.

Without a creator, a higher power, God, we are free to do whatever we want with no responsibility for our actions and no one to answer to.

.

Ah yes, the old "you need supervision to do the right thing". Look up the word "projection".

Transformed1 said:

A lot of insults towards Prince, contemptious?, offensive? I thought it was a beautiful song, and he's telling it from HIS opinion. We don't have to agree, especially if it's our experience differs. But to be offended by his beliefs is... I don't know. Are we at the point where we all have to agree or be offended, nothing in between. I don't agree with some of Prince's political statements/songs but I wouldn't go so far to label them offensive. (Baltimore comes close though

Rock on the shore... always been there. no problem with this lyric, I know what he meant. maybe some are over thinking it

Maybe. So what did he mean? I'd love to know.

Transformed1 said:

A lot of insults towards Prince, contemptious?, offensive? I thought it was a beautiful song, and he's telling it from HIS opinion. We don't have to agree, especially if it's our experience differs. But to be offended by his beliefs is... I don't know. Are we at the point where we all have to agree or be offended, nothing in between. I don't agree with some of Prince's political statements/songs but I wouldn't go so far to label them offensive. (Baltimore comes close though

Rock on the shore... always been there. no problem with this lyric, I know what he meant. maybe some are over thinking it

Science is not an opinion. At face-value the line comes off as utterly ignorant.

bluegangsta said:

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.

Agreed. Contemptable and naive attitude from Prince at best.

I can't imagine Prince delivering the other verses and then all of a sudden put either children that lost their mother or children who were left on their own (a mother can be alive without being present) during their childhood in a corner.

I don't think he's accusing these victims of being reclusive. It's just a disenchanted statement, possibly an autobiographical one, à la "Papa"?

[Edited 3/14/17 15:05pm]

Genesia said:

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.

Methinks thou dost protest too much. Maybe you are an exception, did you ever think of that?

How do we know Prince wasn't talking about himself (or other people he knew personally)? I think we can say with a pretty fair degree of certainty that Prince felt abandoned by his mother when she remarried. He was upset enough about it to leave her and his stepfather's home at the age of 12 - and never go back. And given his relationship track record, it's pretty clear that he was something of an emotional cripple.

Aww, you beat me to it.

bluegangsta said:

Transformed1 said:

A lot of insults towards Prince, contemptious?, offensive? I thought it was a beautiful song, and he's telling it from HIS opinion. We don't have to agree, especially if it's our experience differs. But to be offended by his beliefs is... I don't know. Are we at the point where we all have to agree or be offended, nothing in between. I don't agree with some of Prince's political statements/songs but I wouldn't go so far to label them offensive. (Baltimore comes close though

Rock on the shore... always been there. no problem with this lyric, I know what he meant. maybe some are over thinking it

Science is not an opinion. At face-value the line comes off as utterly ignorant.

please don't get me wrong bluegangsta but ... what are ur intentions here? are u really searching for an answer to ur question? do u really wanna understand prince's thinking when he wrote that song (as far as anyone here can actually help u with that)?

I ask cause I'm honestly curious ... u already had decided to finding it idiotic when u started this thread ... there were lots of different and some interesting concepts offered though ... later on u call him naive and the line utterly ignorant ... so do u really wanna know? really wanna open ur mind? or just looking for confirmation of ur prejudgmental offense? ... just asking ...

btw we are not dicussing science here but the lyrics to a song. so actually yes. this is all about opinions cause nobody here wrote those lyrics and nobody here knows what he meant I guess.

berlinas2k said:

purplerabbithole said:

What I love about Art Official Age is that its spiritual without being overly entrenched in religious doctrine.

AOA is great and the difference in the spirituality aspect is that it's about his journey and it's not accusatory and preachy like TRC.

more Lovesexy-gone-full-circle than TRC, that's for sure.

Remove the cryptic fluorescent gloss, Lovesexy is still a bit preachy towards the end.
It's mostly about enlightenment, but as it all resolves to "Boys and Girls",
you can easily guess the heavenly (carnal) rewards of the Lovesexy doctrine.

TRC is dogma without getting laid much (if at all),
and polygamy is plain forbidden instead of humanly confronted ("Anna Stesia").
"Last December" is 1999 without one last orgy before the mushroom grows.
So not as much fun. Deep, but not much fun.

But the music on TRC is so good, that I'm willing to play the game, God/Vader and shit,
even if by the end of the record I'm glad to be back on earth amongst sane people.
That's of course an exaggeration, but Prince could really lose me sometimes.

I mean, the "One Song" is really too much for me.
Worse than "Wedding Feast", which is a rare fun-comedy moment on TRC.

[Edited 3/14/17 15:30pm]

lemoncrush19 said:

bluegangsta said:

Science is not an opinion. At face-value the line comes off as utterly ignorant.

please don't get me wrong bluegangsta but ... what are ur intentions here? are u really searching for an answer to ur question? do u really wanna understand prince's thinking when he wrote that song (as far as anyone here can actually help u with that)?

I ask cause I'm honestly curious ... u already had decided to finding it idiotic when u started this thread ... there were lots of different and some interesting concepts offered though ... later on u call him naive and the line utterly ignorant ... so do u really wanna know? really wanna open ur mind? or just looking for confirmation of ur prejudgmental offense? ... just asking ...

btw we are not dicussing science here but the lyrics to a song. so actually yes. this is all about opinions cause nobody here wrote those lyrics and nobody here knows what he meant I guess.

These particular lyrics are good controversy.

I think they're worth a thread. Giving it an interpretation is precisely what bluegangsta asks for, not another lecture on whether dissing Prince or not — which wasn't the point.

I think it's bluegangsta's right to think they're idiotic. They certainly give way to severe scrutiny, they do sound like he's advocating for a radical point of view. It's a real debate, creationism, it can really lead to obscurantism.

Prince was a gentle person. I personally think he was speaking of what's being passed by a generation to the following one. The attitude of thinking something has always been there, whether a rock or a building, is a lazy mental scheme, and voluntarily or involuntarily obliterates what (person or event) brought this rock or this bulding here. He proved he was a musician of his times at any era, he was not stuck in the past.

I think he was pretty right by saying "we're too much on this side of the fence". I mean look at how many articles that start with "Science study says...". To Prince, the global cartesianism we live in leaves too little room for spirituality and thinking behind crude matter.
It bears as a consequence a global irresponsability, because if you're trained to think a tree has always been in a certain spot, your mind will take an easy path and consider it will always be there in the future, no matter how I/you/we act in the present.

The way I dig it is that nature is fragile, it evolves, but God (the rock) is bigger than you, it was there before you and will be there after you're gone, you too shall pass.
Without this reminder of the ephemerality in all things, we become careless and take nature for granted.

[Edited 3/14/17 15:55pm]

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.

I think this line most certainly relates to the (research-supported) parental influence on the emotional development of children and ultimately one's future relationship with our own children... The mother generally having the biggest impact in the early years, due to her nurturing role.

bonatoc said:

lemoncrush19 said:

please don't get me wrong bluegangsta but ... what are ur intentions here? are u really searching for an answer to ur question? do u really wanna understand prince's thinking when he wrote that song (as far as anyone here can actually help u with that)?

I ask cause I'm honestly curious ... u already had decided to finding it idiotic when u started this thread ... there were lots of different and some interesting concepts offered though ... later on u call him naive and the line utterly ignorant ... so do u really wanna know? really wanna open ur mind? or just looking for confirmation of ur prejudgmental offense? ... just asking ...

btw we are not dicussing science here but the lyrics to a song. so actually yes. this is all about opinions cause nobody here wrote those lyrics and nobody here knows what he meant I guess.

These particular lyrics are good controversy.

I think they're worth a thread. Giving it an interpretation is precisely what bluegangsta asks for, not another lecture on whether dissing Prince or not — which wasn't the point.

I think it's bluegangsta's right to think they're idiotic. They certainly give way to severe scrutiny, they do sound like he's advocating for a radical point of view. It's a real debate, creationism, it can really lead to obscurantism.

Prince was a gentle person. I personally think he was speaking of what's being passed by a generation to the following one. The attitude of thinking something has always been there, whether a rock or a building, is a lazy mental scheme, and voluntarily or involuntarily obliterates what (person or event) brought this rock or this bulding here. He proved he was a musician of his times at any era, he was not stuck in the past.

I think he was pretty right by saying "we're too much on this side of the fence". I mean look at how many articles that start with "Science study says...". To Prince, the global cartesianism we live in leaves too little room for spirituality and thinking behind crude matter.
It bears as a consequence a global irresponsability, because if you're trained to think a tree has always been in a certain spot, your mind will take an easy path and consider it will always be there in the future, no matter how I/you/we act in the present.

The way I dig it is that nature is fragile, it evolves, but God (the rock) is bigger than you, it was there before you and will be there after you're gone, you too shall pass.
Without this reminder of the ephemerality in all things, we become careless and take nature for granted.

[Edited 3/14/17 15:55pm]

Great post Bonatoc! I personnally think that science and spirituality aren't mutually exclusive and I was going to add to my previous post that even if certain aspects of our past can influence our future and that of others, nothing is irreversible as long as we use this knowledge to understand the reasons behind our actions and correct them wherever needed and if at all possible.

The highlighted sentence in your last paragraph reminds me of the part when God responded in the book of Job.

[Edited 3/14/17 16:43pm]

lemoncrush19 said:

bluegangsta said:

Science is not an opinion. At face-value the line comes off as utterly ignorant.

really wanna open ur mind?

Not to the extent that my brain falls out.

bluegangsta said:

bluegangsta said:

lemoncrush19 said:

really wanna open ur mind?

Not to the extent that my brain falls out.

that would assume a hole in ur skull
but at least ur avatar has a 3rd eye so there's still hope

Not all people who believe in the existence of a God discount science or the Big Bang Theory. While I identify as Christian, I teach a literature of science class in a summer science program for gifted students. I teach both ninth and eleventh graders, and one of the articles I teach to the ninth graders is Neil DeGrasse Tyson's "In Defense of the Big Bang." I also teach Brecht’s play Galileo, and explain that during Galileo’s debate with Christian leaders Galileo wrote in a letter that "The Bible explains how to go to Heaven not how the Heavens go." And even Einstein stated that "science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind." As such, while Prince prioritizes religion or his faith in God over science, I don't think that means that Prince was someone who completely discounted science. Thus, while I love "Colonized Mind," even though it is a rip-off of Mariam Makeba’s "Quit It," I never interpreted it as being anti-science but merely asserting that, for him, belief in God gives his life purpose and that morality—loving one’s fellow man—is more important than anything else.

*

Additionally, I know a few Atheists, and they all practice the rule of "loving others as they love themselves" because they think that doing so makes life more efficient and fulfilling. And, I know people who claim to be various religions who treat others like crap. Yet, for me, I like the narrative of Jesus as the best example of love, and I've yet to have anyone give me a better definition of love in any form--essay, poem, novel, song, fortune cookie--than 1 Corinthians 13. Yet, in "Colonized Mind" I think that Prince is asserting that there are just as many people who don't believe in a God who embrace organizations and practices that are not nearly as enlightening as people think they are. Even noted scientist Stephen Jay Gould had to admonish his follow scientists, in his article "The Evolution of Life on Earth," for corrupting the term "evolution" with the notion that mankind is the highest living form and that all life seeks to evolve in the manner of humans, proving that even scientists can be subjective and irrational. Thus, "Colonized Mind" always seemed like an answer to Prince's critics who asserted that by embracing organized religion he was no longer creative or a critical thinker. To this, I’ll simply add that Newton was a Christian and he's considered one of the most brilliant minds humanity has ever produced.

I think its important to reiterate that Prince calls it the principle of evolution rather than the theory of evolution. Most people refer to it as Darwin's theory of evolution. Theories are hypothesis supported by facts. Principles are basically constant and unchangeable and set in stone. People don't debate principles. they debate theories. And most people wanting to discredit evolution would dismiss it as merely a theory. I can't help but think that he uses the word "principle" on purpose...(because like I said, most people just call it a theory.)

Maybe, prince deliberately called it this (as opposed to the theory of Evolution) in an ironic or sarcastic way to make the point that a principle is never changed or even debated or discussed.. A theory isn't necessarily wrong, but its not set in stone. A principle is never ever challenged. Or maybe he does see evolution as a fundamental truth but still laments the way in which people don't see beyond how things evolve into understanding why they even exist in the first place and/or 'who' gave existence to us in the first place". Evolution is the "how and what happens" but it doesn't give us the "why" life was given to us in the first place. Its hard to appreciate something we figure was always there (carbon for example) and not really a gift.

That being said, he still needs to lay off evolution...because his fear is unfounded. People can still believe in evolution and the mysteries of the spirit at the same time. The song is kind of belittling to those who don't place spirituality above science...many people can see the beauty in both, can see evolution as a gift.

But Prince's lack of belief in "time" actually contradicts the notion of the old school creationism idea of God creating the earth in 6 days and resting on the 7th. With no time, how can there be clear definitive days in which God created the earth?

[Edited 3/14/17 19:27pm]

[Edited 3/14/17 19:33pm]

[Edited 3/14/17 19:35pm]

The disenchanted, tired blues delivery, and the monotonic "upload/download" gimmick, all of this is pretty bleak, as if Prince had become some sort of machine himself, subject to binary behaviours, and then the axe drowns Prince's good/bad list for good.

What a depressing "history repeats itself" chorus: I mean when, as a fan, you think about the way he lived during the last decades, here's a man who earned above quite a few his right to speak his mind.

See, in this verse there's "rock", but there's also "shore".
Land, and sea.
Columbus comes to mind, and Pangaea.
Maybe it's about how we all come from Africa,
and then someday some white guy says we're "north" (above), and you're "south" (below), etc.,
and adds "it's always been there, it's always been like this, keep quiet".

I hear "principle" as "governing".
I hear Prince say "we're not mere apes, life's not a commodity" when only the scientific approach is what modern big business decisions are based upon.
Life becomes a commodity the minute you let science rule it all.
I mean Goldman Sachs and oat and water speculation.
At every nanosecond in New Jersey's digital farms.

It's pretty ecological/poetical, the rock and the shore together...
But I stand by my initial geo-political approach, because after all, Columbus or whatever Kook sees a rock on the shore from a distance, and doesn't care for the history the people on the rock may have.
And the gentle naive sunshine people get colonized.

Wasn't "evolution" the main scientific alibi
that served as explaning the "normality" of slavery, four centuries ago?

He also mentions digital slavery in the song,
so maybe all of it is more about the many forms of slavery
than cosmic-scale considerations.
Maybe cuz the production's trippy, we tend to hear "Big Bang".

Could this verse be a Brotha statement instead?

I don't know nothing about these things, I'm pink as a panther.

[Edited 3/14/17 21:39pm]

purplerabbithole said:

morningsong said:

purplerabbithole said:

I think its important to reiterate that Prince calls it the principle of evolution rather than the theory of evolution. Most people refer to it as Darwin's theory of evolution. Theories are hypothesis supported by facts. Principles are basically constant and unchangeable and set in stone. People don't debate principles. they debate theories. And most people wanting to discredit evolution would dismiss it as merely a theory. I can't help but think that he uses the word "principle" on purpose...(because like I said, most people just call it a theory.)

Maybe, prince deliberately called it this (as opposed to the theory of Evolution) in an ironic or sarcastic way to make the point that a principle is never changed or even debated or discussed.. A theory isn't necessarily wrong, but its not set in stone. A principle is never ever challenged. Or maybe he does see evolution as a fundamental truth but still laments the way in which people don't see beyond how things evolve into understanding why they even exist in the first place and/or 'who' gave existence to us in the first place". Evolution is the "how and what happens" but it doesn't give us the "why" life was given to us in the first place. Its hard to appreciate something we figure was always there (carbon for example) and not really a gift.

That being said, he still needs to lay off evolution...because his fear is unfounded. People can still believe in evolution and the mysteries of the spirit at the same time. The song is kind of belittling to those who don't place spirituality above science...many people can see the beauty in both, can see evolution as a gift.

But Prince's lack of belief in "time" actually contradicts the notion of the old school creationism idea of God creating the earth in 6 days and resting on the 7th. With no time, how can there be clear definitive days in which God created the earth?

[Edited 3/14/17 19:27pm]

[Edited 3/14/17 19:33pm]

[Edited 3/14/17 19:35pm]

I think what's confusing is evolution isn't about rocks. But I agree the song is about spirituality taking lead.

first thing i thought of when i heard that line was what Muhammad Ali said to an interviewer when the interviewer didn't affirm his own belief in a creator, ali said "you see that chair? do you think that chair created itself?" I think the idea of time is one he'd touched on before with the song still would stand all time and the idea of "god in everything" which he used to say sometime around 90, is a tribal idea of the universe, that god is everything that exists and that everything is alive. Prince was often contradictory and it's hard to even tell how much of that talk was just for his image, the image type stuff of a mysterious wizard of some kind. On top of that, he was always changing, the things he spoke of at the end of his life, astral projection, talking to dead people and third eye stuff would get him kicked out of the jehovah's witnesses because it is directly in conflict with what they believe. they don't even believe in an afterlife as such and they do not condone dabbling with anything mystical.

mothyham said:

PeteSilas said:

my interpretation of it is pretty simple, the line about the rock is just a metaphor, not something to take literally, just like the line about John Hammond in avalanche, which wasn't historically accurate but pointed to a greater truth. Of course a rock hasn't always been there and even a scientist would know that a rock would have been volcanic lava at some point. Prince is just making a general statement about all of creation, maybe he could have done it better but he didn't. the lines about the mother and father are fairly accurate too, it doesn't mean everyone without a mother and father end up like that but that it's very likely. Overall, the song is about not having any moral compass and having no sense of cause and effect to go along with that morality, thus, "the blind leading the blind".

Also, no one has mentioned yet but several on this board are aware that this song heavily plagiarizes a miriam makeba song.

wow! someone on this board is intelligent and can think !

I agree completely.

why thank you mothy.

PeteSilas said: