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Thread started 03/12/17 11:03pm

bluegangsta

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"See a rock on the shore and say it's always been there..."

Upload: the evolution principal
U c a rock on the shore and say
"it's always been there"

While I'm fairly certain this is based on some idiotic anti-evolution concept - could someone please explain this line to me?

Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
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Reply #1 posted 03/13/17 5:13am

donnyenglish

The next lines to the song explain it. Those that do not believe that the universe was created have less respect for god's creations. Prince probably thought it was idiotic for people to believe that this was all the result of some big random explosion.
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Reply #2 posted 03/13/17 5:39am

PeteSilas

i always read that song as science/evolution having an adverse affect on morality. No responsibility, no penalty for wrongs done makes it easy to do wrong, thats not a stretch in and of itself. the religious belief is another subject.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #3 posted 03/13/17 6:00am

Genesia

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Give me the download to go with the upload and I'll tell you.

I mean if he did have sex he would break every rule Jehova's have regarding premarital sex so Prince is really just friends with them all anyway.
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Reply #4 posted 03/13/17 7:24am

bluegangsta

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donnyenglish said:

The next lines to the song explain it. Those that do not believe that the universe was created have less respect for god's creations. Prince probably thought it was idiotic for people to believe that this was all the result of some big random explosion.

Big random explosion? It a shame people don't bother to educate themselves, if that's how they articulate it.

This still doesn't explain the concept. Because the earth isn'ta subject of the creation myth, that means everything that currectly exists has always existed?

Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
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Reply #5 posted 03/13/17 7:53am

E319

"Upload, the evolution principle
You see a rock on the shore and say
"It's always been there

Download, no responsibility
Do what you want, nobody cares"



My interpretation of this verse has always been that if you upload/teach people that there is no God and that all of creation is only a result of random evolution with no higher purpose, the download/result is that people who do whatever they want with no care for their actions or for others.



"If you look, you're sure gonna find
Throughout mankind's history
A Colonized Mind

The one in power makes law
Under which the colonized fall
Without God, it's just the blind leading the blind"







[Edited 3/13/17 7:53am]

[Edited 3/13/17 7:56am]

Black day, stormy night/No love, no hope in sight...
Don't cry, he is coming/Don't die, without knowing...
The Cross.
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Reply #6 posted 03/13/17 8:18am

IstenSzek

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the only thing i found a bit confusing is that the 'rock on the shore' has not always been there
from the view of evolutionists. since the earth has been subject to change for a billion years -
that rock came from a whole other place before it ended up on the shore biggrin it was probably
also a lot bigger or at least a different shape before it came to rest (for now) on the shore.

it would probably be religious believers who would be more inclined to say that this rock (if it
were big enough) had always been there, as in, placed there by god, in his creation.

now, if he were talking about a rock sticking out of the bottom of a huge cliff of geological
strata, well, then it starts to make sense. then it would be the other way around. the ones who
say 'the earth is a few thousand years old' would say 'god put it there, along with whatever
else you find in the strata' and the evolutionist would say 'it's been there since that layer was
put down, about 75 million years ago' etc etc.

and once again i've reasoned myself out of my initial response lol nevermind, it makes me
feel more comfortable listening to the song now since that line always bugged me. smile

and true love lives on lollipops and crisps
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Reply #7 posted 03/13/17 11:19am

Militant

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moderator

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.


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Reply #8 posted 03/13/17 1:41pm

SomeSoldier

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.



I think that line and the next were a dig at gay adoption. As you say, though, brilliant song, lyrically questionable at best...
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Reply #9 posted 03/13/17 2:41pm

berlinas2k

SomeSoldier said:

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.



I think that line and the next were a dig at gay adoption. As you say, though, brilliant song, lyrically questionable at best...


Most of his later spiritual/religious songs were lyrically questionable, sometimes downright offensive to some. Always knocked it out of the park musically, though.
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Reply #10 posted 03/13/17 2:43pm

purplerabbitho
le

I think your last comment might be an unfair stretch. He may be talking about foster care and broken homes, single parenthood, the lack of two parent households...not specifically or necessarily gay marriage. His simplistic notion of a nucleur family is an old school idea of a good family life but considering his broken family, I think he is more commenting on broken families (especially those in poor or 'ghetto" settings.) than necessarily gay marriage. Gay marriage is not as common in poor settings and its the poor who would be more controlled by the 'man', who are more vulnerable to being "colonized" because of things like unstable households etc.

After what Wendy stated about Prince telling her to have her son call him "Uncle Princey", I kind of doubt the politics of gay adoption are even the point in those lines.

That being said, I am not a huge fan of that song. Strict adherence to religious doctrine is the definition of a colonized mind in my opinion.

But that last thing being said, I think its interesting that Prince uses the word "principle' instead of Theory when refering to Evolution. A principle is an universally acknowledged and agreed upon fact. A theory is a philosophy. Maybe Prince has less of a problem with the evolution theory and more of a problem with evolution as a 'principle'..an established and universal belief that is never challenged, that has no room for the spirit...But I am not religious, so I dont have a problem with evolution whatsoever. To me, its not a theory--it is a principle. But even Prince might have agreed that evolution made a great deal of sense as a theory.

SomeSoldier said:

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.


I think that line and the next were a dig at gay adoption. As you say, though, brilliant song, lyrically questionable at best...

[Edited 3/13/17 14:48pm]

[Edited 3/13/17 14:50pm]

[Edited 3/13/17 15:13pm]

[Edited 3/13/17 15:17pm]

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Reply #11 posted 03/13/17 2:45pm

purplerabbitho
le

What I love about Art Official Age is that its spiritual without being overly entrenched in religious doctrine.

berlinas2k said:

SomeSoldier said:
I think that line and the next were a dig at gay adoption. As you say, though, brilliant song, lyrically questionable at best...
Most of his later spiritual/religious songs were lyrically questionable, sometimes downright offensive to some. Always knocked it out of the park musically, though.

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Reply #12 posted 03/13/17 3:56pm

bluegangsta

avatar

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.

Agreed. Contemptable and naive attitude from Prince at best.

Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
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Reply #13 posted 03/13/17 4:37pm

EddieC

Not only has the rock not "always" been "on the shore," it very likely shows (to those who care to look) the evidence of its own changes and possibly of life's changes as well. The line's always seemed truly bizarre to me. Looking closely at rocks and not accepting the idea that they've "always been there" through history is what separates the evolutionary/change viewpoint from the creationist viewpoint, which is based on the idea that stasis (punctuated by divine intervention) is the norm. The creationist viewpoint would have the rock (as a static created thing) more or less "being there" since the creation. As to the idea that evolution is detrimental to morality--utter balderdash.

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Reply #14 posted 03/13/17 4:46pm

berlinas2k

purplerabbithole said:

What I love about Art Official Age is that its spiritual without being overly entrenched in religious doctrine.





berlinas2k said:


SomeSoldier said:
I think that line and the next were a dig at gay adoption. As you say, though, brilliant song, lyrically questionable at best...

Most of his later spiritual/religious songs were lyrically questionable, sometimes downright offensive to some. Always knocked it out of the park musically, though.



AOA is great and the difference in the spirituality aspect is that it's about his journey and it's not accusatory and preachy like TRC.
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Reply #15 posted 03/13/17 5:09pm

LovePaisley

SomeSoldier said:

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.



I think that line and the next were a dig at gay adoption. As you say, though, brilliant song, lyrically questionable at best...


I take that line as a reference to his emotional ambivalence to his own mom. I had an emotionally absent mother, too. Who rejected me for a husband. And yeah, it's hard for me to show love or any emotion. Feel, yes. Show? Maybe and carefully.
And the MUSIC continues...forever...
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Reply #16 posted 03/13/17 5:16pm

Shockedelicus

bluegangsta said:

Upload: the evolution principal
U c a rock on the shore and say
"it's always been there"

While I'm fairly certain this is based on some idiotic anti-evolution concept - could someone please explain this line to me?

Colonized Mind is a great track, but I've always thought that was such a stupid line. That's not how rocks work.

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Reply #17 posted 03/13/17 5:36pm

morningsong

avatar

That has always confused me, but then it's Prince so I live in that space... I came to the conclusion of

static existance...
In the static view our whole universe – our past, present, and future are fixed parts of that reel of film, and the projector is our consciousness. But the 'happenings' of our consciousness have no objective significance – the objective universe does not happen, it simply exists in its entirety, albeit perceived from within as a world of changes.


As far as mothers and fathers, I'm thinking more mother-figures and father-figures as opposed to a biological figure. I didn't "have" my mother either from a very early age, pre-walking; not due to death or her being a irresponsible person but just the gambles of life, but I had many mother-figures involved in my life just as I had many father-figures in addition to my own biological father.

[Edited 3/13/17 17:40pm]

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #18 posted 03/13/17 6:16pm

purplerabbitho
le

Prince said he didn't believe in time and was a fan of the movie Lucy, a movie that expresses the notion that one can travel through 'time' by accessing the full capacities of one's mind. This notion is that existance isn't linear but layered and static and that everything is happening at the same time; that reality is a mind construct etc. Its almost like multiple dimensions. In both evolution and the creation myths, rocks don't exist for all of eternity. Maybe what Prince meant is the scientific notion that matter can not be created nor destroyed but can only change form' . He may not literally mean "rock". he may mean carbon/ existance. Prince's notion of the universe might be that God created physical existence (not in 7 days but in a period of time unmeasurable...thus his lack of believing in time as a concept) and that existance is like an elaborate multi-layered, multi-dimensional layer cake of different realities manipulated by God and accessed only by the imagination and a spiritual connection to God...He may not rule out evolution, he just may rule it out as the only explanation for things/existence... because he believes that a belief only in evolution that leaves out God/something bigger than us unfortunately makes us unappreciative of what "God" gave us. Prince's belief in a lack of time and his calling evolution a principle rather than a theory might mean his take on the subject is much more complicated and convoluted than that line would suggest. Prince also believed in environmentalism; most creationists do not believe in the need to protect the environment because they tend to think of humans as the center of the universe.

morningsong said:

That has always confused me, but then it's Prince so I live in that space... I came to the conclusion of

static existance...
In the static view our whole universe – our past, present, and future are fixed parts of that reel of film, and the projector is our consciousness. But the 'happenings' of our consciousness have no objective significance – the objective universe does not happen, it simply exists in its entirety, albeit perceived from within as a world of changes.


As far as mothers and fathers, I'm thinking more mother-figures and father-figures as opposed to a biological figure. I didn't "have" my mother either from a very early age, pre-walking; not due to death or her being a irresponsible person but just the gambles of life, but I had many mother-figures involved in my life just as I had many father-figures in addition to my own biological father.

[Edited 3/13/17 17:40pm]

[Edited 3/13/17 18:17pm]

[Edited 3/13/17 18:20pm]

[Edited 3/13/17 18:26pm]

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Reply #19 posted 03/13/17 6:24pm

morningsong

avatar

purplerabbithole said:

Prince said he didn't believe in time and was a fan of the movie Lucy, a movie that expresses the notion that one can travel through 'time' by accessing the full capacities of one's mind. This notion is that existance isn't linear but layered and static that everything is happening at the same time and that reality is a mind construct etc. Its almost like multiple dimensions. In both evolution and the creation myths, rocks don't exist for all of eternity. Maybe what Prince meant is the scientific notion that matter can not be created nor destroyed but can only change form' . He may not literally mean "rock". he may mean carbon, existance. Prince's notion of the universe might be that God created everything (not in 7 days but in a period of time unmeasurable...thus his lack of believing in time as a concept) and its like an elaborate multi-layered, multi-dimensional layer cake of different realities manipulated by God and accessed only by the imagination and a spiritual connection to God...He may not rule out evolution, he just may rule it out as the only explanation for things because he believes it leaves out God.

morningsong said:

That has always confused me, but then it's Prince so I live in that space... I came to the conclusion of

static existance...
In the static view our whole universe – our past, present, and future are fixed parts of that reel of film, and the projector is our consciousness. But the 'happenings' of our consciousness have no objective significance – the objective universe does not happen, it simply exists in its entirety, albeit perceived from within as a world of changes.


As far as mothers and fathers, I'm thinking more mother-figures and father-figures as opposed to a biological figure. I didn't "have" my mother either from a very early age, pre-walking; not due to death or her being a irresponsible person but just the gambles of life, but I had many mother-figures involved in my life just as I had many father-figures in addition to my own biological father.

[Edited 3/13/17 17:40pm]

[Edited 3/13/17 18:17pm]



He comments about time, his mentioning of Einstein along with other things he's said made me think he was talking about more than the theory of evolution since a rock always being there doesn't work with that.

Eternalism is a philosophical approach to the ontological nature of time, which takes the view that all points in time are equally real, as opposed to the presentist idea that only the present is real,

In his discussion with Albert Einstein, Karl Popper argued against determinism:

The main topic of our conversation was indeterminism. I tried to persuade him to give up his determinism, which amounted to the view that the world was a four-dimensional Parmenidean block universe in which change was a human illusion, or very nearly so.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #20 posted 03/13/17 7:57pm

PeteSilas

my interpretation of it is pretty simple, the line about the rock is just a metaphor, not something to take literally, just like the line about John Hammond in avalanche, which wasn't historically accurate but pointed to a greater truth. Of course a rock hasn't always been there and even a scientist would know that a rock would have been volcanic lava at some point. Prince is just making a general statement about all of creation, maybe he could have done it better but he didn't. the lines about the mother and father are fairly accurate too, it doesn't mean everyone without a mother and father end up like that but that it's very likely. Overall, the song is about not having any moral compass and having no sense of cause and effect to go along with that morality, thus, "the blind leading the blind".

Also, no one has mentioned yet but several on this board are aware that this song heavily plagiarizes a miriam makeba song.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #21 posted 03/13/17 8:04pm

PeteSilas

time is a deep issue, i've been reading einsteins ideas about it, recently i came across a statement of his about a friend dying and he said something like there wasn't any need to say he'd be there himself someday but that in a sense he already was. All kinds of wacky ideas out there, lately i ran across one that said we are all living in a virtual reality just like the movie the matrix, for the entertainment of superior beings.

morningsong said:

purplerabbithole said:

Prince said he didn't believe in time and was a fan of the movie Lucy, a movie that expresses the notion that one can travel through 'time' by accessing the full capacities of one's mind. This notion is that existance isn't linear but layered and static that everything is happening at the same time and that reality is a mind construct etc. Its almost like multiple dimensions. In both evolution and the creation myths, rocks don't exist for all of eternity. Maybe what Prince meant is the scientific notion that matter can not be created nor destroyed but can only change form' . He may not literally mean "rock". he may mean carbon, existance. Prince's notion of the universe might be that God created everything (not in 7 days but in a period of time unmeasurable...thus his lack of believing in time as a concept) and its like an elaborate multi-layered, multi-dimensional layer cake of different realities manipulated by God and accessed only by the imagination and a spiritual connection to God...He may not rule out evolution, he just may rule it out as the only explanation for things because he believes it leaves out God.



He comments about time, his mentioning of Einstein along with other things he's said made me think he was talking about more than the theory of evolution since a rock always being there doesn't work with that.

Eternalism is a philosophical approach to the ontological nature of time, which takes the view that all points in time are equally real, as opposed to the presentist idea that only the present is real,

In his discussion with Albert Einstein, Karl Popper argued against determinism:

The main topic of our conversation was indeterminism. I tried to persuade him to give up his determinism, which amounted to the view that the world was a four-dimensional Parmenidean block universe in which change was a human illusion, or very nearly so.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #22 posted 03/13/17 10:25pm

morningsong

avatar

PeteSilas said:

time is a deep issue, i've been reading einsteins ideas about it, recently i came across a statement of his about a friend dying and he said something like there wasn't any need to say he'd be there himself someday but that in a sense he already was. All kinds of wacky ideas out there, lately i ran across one that said we are all living in a virtual reality just like the movie the matrix, for the entertainment of superior beings.



morningsong said:




purplerabbithole said:


Prince said he didn't believe in time and was a fan of the movie Lucy, a movie that expresses the notion that one can travel through 'time' by accessing the full capacities of one's mind. This notion is that existance isn't linear but layered and static that everything is happening at the same time and that reality is a mind construct etc. Its almost like multiple dimensions. In both evolution and the creation myths, rocks don't exist for all of eternity. Maybe what Prince meant is the scientific notion that matter can not be created nor destroyed but can only change form' . He may not literally mean "rock". he may mean carbon, existance. Prince's notion of the universe might be that God created everything (not in 7 days but in a period of time unmeasurable...thus his lack of believing in time as a concept) and its like an elaborate multi-layered, multi-dimensional layer cake of different realities manipulated by God and accessed only by the imagination and a spiritual connection to God...He may not rule out evolution, he just may rule it out as the only explanation for things because he believes it leaves out God.






He comments about time, his mentioning of Einstein along with other things he's said made me think he was talking about more than the theory of evolution since a rock always being there doesn't work with that.

Eternalism is a philosophical approach to the ontological nature of time, which takes the view that all points in time are equally real, as opposed to the presentist idea that only the present is real,


In his discussion with Albert Einstein, Karl Popper argued against determinism:



The main topic of our conversation was indeterminism. I tried to persuade him to give up his determinism, which amounted to the view that the world was a four-dimensional Parmenidean block universe in which change was a human illusion, or very nearly so.









I get the impression he did read a variety of subjects, who knows, there are a lot of views out there.
“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #23 posted 03/14/17 5:32am

NouveauDance

avatar

Militant said:

Musically a fantastic song.

Lyrically questionable.

When he said "Upload ; a child with no mother. Download ; a hard time showing love" - I can't co-sign. I lost my mother when I was 5. I don't have a hard time showing love in any way shape or form.

I think a lot of his finger pointing in the later years was intenionally or unintentionally autobiographical.

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Reply #24 posted 03/14/17 5:50am

benni

I always felt Prince was saying that there was no meaning behind the Evolution Principle. Essentially, with no creator, if you were to see a rock on the shore, the idea is that it's always been there. A rock is just a rock on the shore and holds no mystery, no creation. Without a creator, a higher power, God, we are free to do whatever we want with no responsibility for our actions and no one to answer to. Thus no one cares what we do. Of course, we must follow the laws of the land, and we take on whatever responsibilty we want to take on, but there is nothing and no one guiding our actions. With evolution, at the end of the day, when our time comes, it holds no meaning, no significance, because it's just over.

If you believe in creation, in a higher power, than you must answer to that higher power for any actions you undertake. You have a responsibility to that higher power to act in keeping with the laws laid down to you by that higher power. And that higher power does care about what you do. You see the mystery in that rock on the shore and know it was created, in whatever manner, by that higher power. It wasn't always there and it's presence holds meaning and is signficant. And at the end of the day, when our time comes, there is meaning, significance, and we must answer to that higher power and take responsibility for our actions through life.

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Reply #25 posted 03/14/17 6:01am

lemoncrush19

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I think it’s quite simple and clear and yet significant if u want to make up ur mind.

colonized mind. as occupied by someone (in an absolutely not sophisticated way).
thinking what u were told to think. doing what all the others do. acting like u had no choice. … "it’s always been like that." "we’ve always done it like that." "it is as it is and was." "u can’t change that." "they have to …" ...
the rock is just an image for something u can’t move (resp. change) as individual (or at least believe u can’t). ur without any power as individual, u have no real choice therefore u have no responsibility.
that’s not was prince was thinking. that’s what most ppl think. that’s how this world goes round.
he just tried to open our mind for what’s going on. just think about it.
naive? idiotic? questionable? I don’t think so. but I can be totally wrong of course like all of us.
the only love there is is the love we make heart
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Reply #26 posted 03/14/17 6:03am

jcurley

From my take Prince has always been wrong this way. Evolutionists wouldn't think that rock had always been there. He argues incorrectly about science quite frequently.

I sit in neither camp. I believe in God but also evolution. This all comes down to whether one believes in biblical. " truth" or something broader.

The irony of Prince is he almost assumes people are as dogmatic as him. A trate that is very normal. Einstein believed in God and Evolution. The Catholic church has no issue with dismissing creationism. Evolution doesn't mean there's no God, it's more IMO a perception of time.

Prince should have done more homework or at least been less sweeping.

Still a brilliant sing though. Regardless of faith v secular where I do think he's right is minds can be colonized
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Reply #27 posted 03/14/17 6:59am

Musze

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FANTASTIC Thread. Wish we could have more civilized discourse like this on the Org. smile

I Love U, But I Don't Trust U Anymore...
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Reply #28 posted 03/14/17 8:13am

highcalonic

lemoncrush19 said:

I think it’s quite simple and clear and yet significant if u want to make up ur mind.

colonized mind. as occupied by someone (in an absolutely not sophisticated way).
thinking what u were told to think. doing what all the others do. acting like u had no choice. … "it’s always been like that." "we’ve always done it like that." "it is as it is and was." "u can’t change that." "they have to …" ...
the rock is just an image for something u can’t move (resp. change) as individual (or at least believe u can’t). ur without any power as individual, u have no real choice therefore u have no responsibility.
that’s not was prince was thinking. that’s what most ppl think. that’s how this world goes round.
he just tried to open our mind for what’s going on. just think about it.
naive? idiotic? questionable? I don’t think so. but I can be totally wrong of course like all of us.

What you say is exactly the meaning of this song for me too thumbs up!

"You can skate around the issue if you like,
But who's gonna get you high in the middle of the night?"
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Reply #29 posted 03/14/17 8:22am

PeteSilas

highcalonic said:

lemoncrush19 said:

I think it’s quite simple and clear and yet significant if u want to make up ur mind.

colonized mind. as occupied by someone (in an absolutely not sophisticated way).
thinking what u were told to think. doing what all the others do. acting like u had no choice. … "it’s always been like that." "we’ve always done it like that." "it is as it is and was." "u can’t change that." "they have to …" ...
the rock is just an image for something u can’t move (resp. change) as individual (or at least believe u can’t). ur without any power as individual, u have no real choice therefore u have no responsibility.
that’s not was prince was thinking. that’s what most ppl think. that’s how this world goes round.
he just tried to open our mind for what’s going on. just think about it.
naive? idiotic? questionable? I don’t think so. but I can be totally wrong of course like all of us.

What you say is exactly the meaning of this song for me too thumbs up!

ya, that's a real good interpretation. I just watched the tavis smiley interview where he says it wasn't racial but how everyone gets' brainwashed, i thought that was interesting. "colonized" conjures up images for me as a native american of having an entire history and culture forced down your throat. Prince said he didn't mean that.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Forums > Prince: Music and More > "See a rock on the shore and say it's always been there..."