Hi fellow orgers.

Be interested in views on this. See http://cocoadiaries.com/ for more.

Prince in the 90s part 3 - free the music.

T

http://cocoadiaries.com/m...the-music/ - Clickable. Nice write up but...

I hate the "he was chasing trends with D&P because Tony M". Argument. Also as time went on, it became obvious that rap wasn't a trend, it was a genre. So he'd have been foolish to ignore it.

I'm also not sure I believe Prince was SO stupid that he genuinely thought "hey if I get Tony to rap on some of these tracks the NPG will be the new NWA". - It's much more a case IMO of him bringing rap to pop. As opposed to trying to sound like a rapper himself. There is very little on that sounds like rap music circa 1992. Not until KirkyJ's PopLife remix and "18 & Over" do you really hear the west coast hiphop influence with those Dr Dre synths.

As much as people talk about being rap influenced. There are quite a few songs that have a dance music influence to them. I also love the production on this album. It carries over the live-band sound of D&P but it sounds a little dirtier.

MNIP I'm convinced is his answer to MJ's "Bad"... or maybe more acurately, his response to MJ convincing MTV to refer to him as "The King Of Pop". During the song:

"My Name Is Prince/I don't wan't to be king"
"You must become a Prince before a King anyway"..
Then on the B-Side "2 Whomever it may concern, you must come to your senses/There are no kings on this earth/Only Princes...

So it sounds like he did the only thing he could do "King of pop? I'm PRINCE motherfucker" and just so everyone is on the same page, he then proceeds to shout his name at you for 6 minutes over a thumping beat.

[Edited 11/27/16 8:14am]

MNIP is absolutely stellar, in EVERY way. It helps me drive better, too!

I think by 93/94 Prince was really getting into european dance music at the time. Between songs like MNIP Hardcore mix, Loose!, The Ryde Divine, Beautiful, (Not to mention Carman Electra & Maytes album + some of the maxi Single remixes from D&P.

I think is as much influenced by dance music of the time as it is by rap. Maybe moreso.

Tokyo said:

I've never heard My Name Is Prince being held up as Princes answer to MJs Bad...that's a new perspective. My view on that track is that it's got a fantastic rumble to it. Got to be honest though I just think that one has aged poorly...track and instrumentation is tight - as you say thumping beat - but all the vocals just feel like they're not hitting it. Bass on Sacrifice of Victor is great too...love the Sonny T years. So funky. T

The rivalry between the two (though emanating primarily from Prince) was real.

To go deeper, When Prince released D&P he included "Daddy Pop" - a song designed to position Prince as "the godfather of POP". Who's Prince? He's "He's the Pop Daddy/Daddy Pop" etc.

Shortly after the albums release MJ has MTV agree to refer to him as "The King Of Pop". King one-uping a Prince.

The first song on Prince's new album "My Name is Prince". Contains 2 blatant swipes at "Kings" and the singles B-side contains yet another swipe at "Kings"... 3 jabs on one single makes the entire effort a borderline diss track... The verse where he says he doesn't want to be "King" also contains the line "...Will save your face but it won't save your soul" - which again could have been another swipe.

One song is "I'm Bad". The other is "I'm Prince & I'm Funky"

Both songs were each artists "hardest" sounding song to date. Both attempt to project a much harder image than was truly representative of their character. Both are delivered by shouting the lyrics at the listener... the songs themselves may not have much in common but they're certainly in the same vein as bragging tracks.

[Edited 11/27/16 10:17am]

He was clearly chasing trends, look at the 2 Whom It May Concern video. It wasn't that he using rap per se, it was that he got the first guy he came across and didn't much care if he was the best rapper or not - he wanted another toy to mould just like Vanity, Morris et all. Prince wanted to incorporate rap because it was seeing success on the charts, and it was a new colour of paint to dip his brush in to. He was a showman and he wanted to add rap to his revue. Tony M/NPG would be his new Time and Carmen would be his new Vanity for the 90210 generation.

.

Prince had a misunderstanding of rap like he had a misunderstanding of the other genre blossoming commercially at the time: house music. Most of his attempts to incorporate house (including all it's sub-genres) fell just as flat as his attempts to incorporate rap. It was plastic and transparent, and always WAY behind the curve.

.

Not to say all his attempts at either were off the mark, they weren't - but it took a few years to achieve anything decent. And really he'd already done something akin to both rap and house/techno earlier with much better results, it just wasn't particularly labelled as such because he wasn't going in so hard at emulating what he thought would give him a hit.

NouveauDance said:

He was clearly chasing trends, look at the 2 Whom It May Concern video. It wasn't that he using rap per se, it was that he got the first guy he came across and didn't much care if he was the best rapper or not - he wanted another toy to mould just like Vanity, Morris et all. Prince wanted to incorporate rap because it was seeing success on the charts, and it was a new colour of paint to dip his brush in to. He was a showman and he wanted to add rap to his revue. Tony M/NPG would be his new Time and Carmen would be his new Vanity for the 90210 generation.

.
I I don't see that at all. I mean how is that any different to him adopting a more Rock sound and hiring a mixed race/mixed gender band for Purple Rain. It was all thought out. It's the nature of Pop.

He definitely made the concious decision to have a rapper in the group. No question. But once he brought Tony M in (as a rapper though he'd been around since Purple Rain - Peach & Black Podcast) Prince didn't then try to make a rap album (under his own name). "Damn U" - on a rap album?

Prince had a misunderstanding of rap like he had a misunderstanding of the other genre blossoming commercially at the time: house music. Most of his attempts to incorporate house (including all it's sub-genres) fell just as flat as his attempts to incorporate rap. It was plastic and transparent, and always WAY behind the curve.

.

Not to say all his attempts at either were off the mark, they weren't - but it took a few years to achieve anything decent. And really he'd already done something akin to both rap and house/techno earlier with much better results, it just wasn't particularly labelled as such because he wasn't going in so hard at emulating what he thought would give him a hit.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. But in Europe he was still hitting the top 10 regularly. Nighclubs would spin his dance mixes, and some of them were huge.

As for being way behind the curve - Tony M was featured on at least 3 international hit singles which I don't think many rappers could say as of 1992. LL Cool J hit #47 on the UK charts with Mama Said Knock You Out. Gett Off hit #4.

I mean...

Noodled24 said:

I mean how is that any different to him adopting a more Rock sound and hiring a mixed race/mixed gender band for Purple Rain.

I never said it was any different.

NouveauDance said:

He was clearly chasing trends, look at the 2 Whom It May Concern video. It wasn't that he using rap per se, it was that he got the first guy he came across and didn't much care if he was the best rapper or not - he wanted another toy to mould just like Vanity, Morris et all. Prince wanted to incorporate rap because it was seeing success on the charts, and it was a new colour of paint to dip his brush in to. He was a showman and he wanted to add rap to his revue. Tony M/NPG would be his new Time and Carmen would be his new Vanity for the 90210 generation.

.

Prince had a misunderstanding of rap like he had a misunderstanding of the other genre blossoming commercially at the time: house music. Most of his attempts to incorporate house (including all it's sub-genres) fell just as flat as his attempts to incorporate rap. It was plastic and transparent, and always WAY behind the curve.

.

Not to say all his attempts at either were off the mark, they weren't - but it took a few years to achieve anything decent. And really he'd already done something akin to both rap and house/techno earlier with much better results, it just wasn't particularly labelled as such because he wasn't going in so hard at emulating what he thought would give him a hit.

For anyone who's not yet had a chance to read:

www.cocoadiaries.com/musi...the-music/

Nouveau I think you make a lot of good points here. I actually think Prince understood rap, but in the 80s he clearly just didn't like it much. His own quirky takes on it, getting Cat to rap and then him basically doing it himself were when it worked best IMHO.

Good point also being made in this thread about Tony M appearing on a lot of big hits at the time. Also enjoyed the further insight into the Prince/MJ rivalry too.

Will recordings like the Undertaker and The Exodus Has Begun just fade out of the public domain now? The article is v positive on those, and with the hits being re-packaged again (along with a Purple Rain re-issue on the way) - it does make you think that some of this great music will either be incredibly hard to find in the future or worse just disappear into the ether forever.

Thoughts?

[Edited 11/28/16 2:28am]

Ingela said:

He was chasing trends and making dumbed down throw away music. The outtakes from the sender answer equally atrocious.

Which trends was he chasing... specifically? Are you saying he thought the NPG were going to be the new NWA? Because D&P nor sounds anything like a rap album... rap had made very little impact on the POP charts.

Yes there were gems spread out over that era. But were truly rare. The quality of his music from 87-onwards dropped son dramatically, as fast as an on and off switch on your wall, that I ALWAYS felt that drugs had to be the reason for his music to fall off the cliff so dramatically. He certainly looked like he was druggie compared to the 80's, Its such a shame. But it looks like he hit rock bottom by the time he met Larry Graham and just as quickly recharged his career. I'm glad his career had that arch, from genius, to drugged out and then redemption. I will always give Larry for picking him up and cleaning him and the triumphant renaissance of his career. Maybe not as a songwriter, but as the greatest live performer of all time.

Each to their own. But you're ignoring the fact the 90s produced some of his biggest international singles.

All I'm hearing is a regurgitated fallacy from lazy music journalists from the early 90s. Who genuinely thought rap was a fad, and wouldn't be around in 5 years time. Prince was scoring international hits with a rapper before there had ever been a #1 Billboard rap single. That's not chasing trends. It's being on the cutting edge of pop.

[Edited 11/28/16 8:19am]

Tokyo said:

Good point also being made in this thread about Tony M appearing on a lot of big hits at the time. Also enjoyed the further insight into the Prince/MJ rivalry too.

Will recordings like the Undertaker and The Exodus Has Begun just fade out of the public domain now? The article is v positive on those, and with the hits being re-packaged again (along with a Purple Rain re-issue on the way) - it does make you think that some of this great music will either be incredibly hard to find in the future or worse just disappear into the ether forever.

I think Exodus deserves a re-release. I'm not sure it needs the whole remaster + bonus tracks. I think the best songs (I've heard) made the album. (Though I'd love to hear "The Exodus Has Begun" without the cheesy sounding scratching... or at least buried in the mix rather than right up front).

The Undertaker kind of became the new "Black Album". I think keeping it semi-rare adds to the records mystique - the same applied to The Black Album itself until WB released it and the legend was retired in favor of reality.

[Edited 11/28/16 11:14am]

same response anytime 90's is discussed...the 2nd gold era '92-'96

Noodled24 said:

Ingela said:

Noodled24 said:

Ingela said:

Each to their own. But you're ignoring the fact the 90s produced some of his biggest international singles.

All I'm hearing is a regurgitated fallacy from lazy music journalists from the early 90s. Who genuinely thought rap was a fad, and wouldn't be around in 5 years time. Prince was scoring international hits with a rapper before there had ever been a #1 Billboard rap single. That's not chasing trends. It's being on the cutting edge of pop.

[Edited 11/28/16 8:19am]

No anyone critic or not that tells you he as an ARTIST fell off the cliff is not only telling it like it is, but also the majority of music listeners. Anyone with ears and a hint of taste, will and have said the same thing.

No, the record buying public gave it the thumbs up. Thats why D&P is one of his best selling albums. outsold SOTT. I'm not saying it's a better album, but the general public was into it. The 90s produced some of his biggest international hits. Thats just a fact.

The only thing that's speculation and yet to be fully leveled and admitted by someone in his organization is his drug problem. I say it was drugs because I can't think of any other explanation.

I see.. and do you also feel drugs were responsible for the change in sound between 1999 & Purple Rain? Or Purple Rain & ATWIAD?.

It's the way coworkers who fall of a cliff right before people notice their work suffering. And it's stereotypical that they go over the top into a new accepting religion when they finally clean up. So he fits that drugs to redemption to relapse arch to the T.

Right... So just to be clear... after several low selling (albeit classic) albums. Prince starts writing hit songs again, and you put that down to drugs?

Noodled24 said:

Ingela said:

Noodled24 said:

Right... So just to be clear... after several low selling (albeit classic) albums. Prince starts writing hit songs again, and you put that down to drugs?

So your entire argument is that because one sorry album, in one year over a span of decade (one critically panned by the way) represents the entire customer satisfaction over entire decades. I surely hope you can see the folly of.your entire argument. Otherwise I would spend some time on logic exercises.

Which is the one sorry album? None of his 80s albums after Purple Rain sold massive numbers. That's not to say they performed badly, they all had hit singles, but Batman was his best selling album since Purple Rain.

Which album are you saying was critically panned? Certainly not it got great reviews overall.

Noodled24 said:

Ingela said:

Noodled24 said:

Which is the one sorry album? None of his 80s albums after Purple Rain sold massive numbers. That's not to say they performed badly, they all had hit singles, but Batman was his best selling album since Purple Rain.

Which album are you saying was critically panned? Certainly not it got great reviews overall.

Symbol and Batman are not great albums. Now you are going back to saying sales equals good. It can't be both.

Of course it can be both. Sales don't mean something is good. But selling big numbers doesn't automatically make something bad.

You can have a critically aclaimed album which also sells well. Case in point Purple Rain.

You can also have a critically aclaimed album which sells not so great. Case in point SOTT.

You can also have a "meh" album which sells massive numbers. Case in point Batman.

You either way his 90's albums are not good because in aggregate they did not sell, or say that sales does not matter hence SOTT and Parade which you mentioned earlier as bad selling 80's album.

I said it didn't sell massive numbers,. Didn't say they sold bad.

Your argument is all over the place instead of just admitting that his 90's (as a whole) suck.

You're entitled to your opinion. But the FACT, is that his albums were selling, his singles were selling & his tours were selling, and he was still getting great reviews.

You're saying the fans, the public & the critics were wrong... that's fine, You're entitled to your opinion. But by any metric you could use to "prove" an artists popularity (ie the number of people buying their records) in the early 90s. Prince was doing fine.

Noodled24 said:

Ingela said:

. No the opposite. I'm saying the critics and public is right and you're wrong. You're conflating things in your imagination.

Tell me one more time how much the critics hated the album...

Professional ratings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Symbol_Album#Critical_reception

[Edited 11/28/16 19:46pm]

Noodled24 said:

Ingela said:

. No the opposite. I'm saying the critics and public is right and you're wrong. You're conflating things in your imagination.

Tell me one more time how much the critics hated the album...

Professional ratings

Review scores
Source Rating
AllMusic
[1]
Chicago Tribune
[7]
Christgau's Consumer Guide
A−[8]
Entertainment Weekly
A−[9]
The Guardian
[10]
Los Angeles Times
[11]
Q
[12]
Rolling Stone
[12]
The Rolling Stone Album Guide
[13]
Spin Alternative Record Guide
7/10[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Symbol_Album#Critical_reception

[Edited 11/28/16 19:43pm]

[Edited 11/28/16 19:45pm]

Ingela said:

Noodled24 said:

Tell me one more time how much the critics hated the album...

Professional ratings

Review scores Source Rating AllMusic [1] Chicago Tribune [7] Christgau's Consumer Guide A−[8] Entertainment Weekly A−[9] The Guardian [10] Los Angeles Times [11] Q [12] Rolling Stone [12] The Rolling Stone Album Guide [13] Spin Alternative Record Guide 7/10[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Symbol_Album#Critical_reception

[Edited 11/28/16 19:43pm]

[Edited 11/28/16 19:45pm]

You're still conflating things. First of all none of his 90's albums have held up and sound corny as hell. Critics and listeners will have a different opinion on this album to is my best gues, but I'll give this to you. I tried to find it on Metacritic to be fair but it wasn't there. So I'll give you this. But the question is still how does one album, equate the entire 90's? We're going in circles, you have your opinion and I'll respect it, were not going to change each other's minds.

That's why I posted NINE different reviews. You were repeating things you'd heard other people say, without bothering to go and check for yourself. You were telling me critics hated the album and you hadn't even bothered to look.

What you've learned here is to check your facts.

Noodled24 said:

NorthC said:

I tried a few of those links, but they led to wikipedia articles about the magazines, not reviews of the album. What I remember is that reviews were mixed, like most Prince albums in the 1990s.

Allmusic gave it 4.5 stars out of 5. The user rating is also 4.5 out of 5. If the link doesn't work just go to allmusic.com. The reviews for were vastly positive. If you go to the wikipedia page for the album it made the US critics top 20 albums of that year.

Ingela surely has a point: critics and fans weren't going over Prince's albums like they did in the 80s. Reviews of his tours were also mixed. Especially in 1995, he was heavily criticized for playing only new songs. It wasn't really until the end of the decade that he got his reputation as a stunning live performer back.

If you can point to me some bad reviews... I'll look.

But IIRC the only real bad reviews he got in the 90s were for "Come" & "Chaos". Even then, both are hailed as fan favorites.

EDIT: I found the Star Tribune review of http://prince.org/msg/7/328609

However, it''s not really an album review. It's 6 paragraphs about how Prince shouldn't waste his time with rap, then they gush about the album. Then give it a low rating. Regardless the majority of the music media was very positive.

[Edited 11/29/16 8:00am]