mattpierson said:

beatz01 said:

Matt Pierson (who is this guy ??) apparently thinks he's qualified and already has some very BAD ideas (bad as in bad, not good):

https://www.facebook.com/...5061180218

EDIT: He's edited his original post, which in the last paragraph included the suggestion to "destroy anything which is not of historical interest".He kinda still defends that idea in his responses to comments to his original post.

[Edited 4/26/16 19:59pm]

"This guy" worked at WB for 12 years, most of which I served as Exec. VP/GM, Jazz. I have also worked on many catalog reissues, including the release of preivously unavailable material from legendary artists (Miles Davis, Jaco Pastorius, Bill Evans, Count Basie, etc.). I simply told a story about one of my experiences with Prince. In terms of my position about the release of material, I feel strongly that if an artist isn't clear about wanting stuff released, it's very important to tread lightly and rely on those with the most direct knowledge of the artist's wishes. For example, Prince was very clear to me that the track "Can I Play With You" was not to be released. Yet many people continue to share bootlegs of it and share videos and SoundCloud streams of it. If Prince were alive, it is VERY safe to say that he would send out takedown notices. His legacy needs to be based on HIS vision, respecting his wishes as much as possible.

I totally agree - that's why I can't believe he didn't leave instructions on how to handle the music in the Vault. Now it seems his heirs will just use it to make $$$$.

eyewishuheaven said:

yasetshego said:

Sheila. W. assistance from JJ, TL AND MD.

Sheila has said what's in the vault should not be released.

I vote susan Rogers & Jimmy Jam.

[Edited 5/20/16 15:14pm]

Why didn't Sheila want the music in the vault released?

Lizzypoo said:

eyewishuheaven said:

Sheila has said what's in the vault should not be released.

I vote susan Rogers & Jimmy Jam.

[Edited 5/20/16 15:14pm]

Why didn't Sheila want the music in the vault released?

She feels that if P wanted any of it released, he'd have released it.

I don't share this feeling, and would point to Crystal Ball '87 as 'Exhibit A'.

eyewishuheaven said:

Lizzypoo said:

Why didn't Sheila want the music in the vault released?

She feels that if P wanted any of it released, he'd have released it.

I don't share this feeling, and would point to Crystal Ball '87 as 'Exhibit A'.

Sheila and all others who frequently come up with this argument should know well that Prince changed his mind about releases constantly! In other words: even Prince himself didn't know (wasn't sure) what he wanted to do with the vault. He most probably was still far too more focused on creating new stuff than to make plans for his back catalog.

He was an artist so creative that he has often lost interest in what he did the day before because of new ideas coming to him all the time. People who know him (and I think we, having followed his every step for decades can safely claim we knew him to a certain extent too) shoud not have expected him to have clear, final release plans and decisions in regards to thousands of tapes he's done ages ago.

He must've thought he had several decades ahead of him, thus plenty of time to sort all that stuff out later and make decisions. Decisions he still would've changed the next day.


So in my view everything should be released (except for the real insignificant stuff), even if it goes against something he might have said in an interview. He has often talked bs just to stir controversy anyway.

[Edited 5/22/16 11:52am]

If I wasnt a Prince fan and I owned the label that purchased his catalogue, my first instinct would be to find a way to maximise profits. I would release some of the vault stuff as Prince, but I would also consider giving songs to my big stars of the day. My shareholders would be very happy if I was making millions by giving songs to the Beyonce's, Taylor Swifts, Katy Perrys and Justin Biebers of this world rather than making less releasing it as Prince.

In order for the vault material to not get raped liked that, it would need someone who cares about the legacy and wants to be true to Prince. Im not sure a label would have those best intentions, and, depending on how much money is owed in taxes, Im not sure the family would be in a financial position to either.

I find it very difficult to see how someone who really cares would end up being in control of the vault. It is clearly a very valuable asset and the industry vultures are circling. With so many songs in there, it would be a record labels dream aquisition. All those songs, written and compiled. No need to hire songwriters for years, they would have a production line of music and the high profile stars to deliver it.

Rebeljuice said:

If I wasnt a Prince fan and I owned the label that purchased his catalogue, my first instinct would be to find a way to maximise profits. I would release some of the vault stuff as Prince, but I would also consider giving songs to my big stars of the day. My shareholders would be very happy if I was making millions by giving songs to the Beyonce's, Taylor Swifts, Katy Perrys and Justin Biebers of this world rather than making less releasing it as Prince.

In order for the vault material to not get raped liked that, it would need someone who cares about the legacy and wants to be true to Prince. Im not sure a label would have those best intentions, and, depending on how much money is owed in taxes, Im not sure the family would be in a financial position to either.

I find it very difficult to see how someone who really cares would end up being in control of the vault. It is clearly a very valuable asset and the industry vultures are circling. With so many songs in there, it would be a record labels dream aquisition. All those songs, written and compiled. No need to hire songwriters for years, they would have a production line of music and the high profile stars to deliver it.

Unreleased compositions can't be recorded/performed by someone else without appropriate permissions. I believe the estate could sell the rights to release his recordings and only those rights.

Eileen said:

Rebeljuice said:

If I wasnt a Prince fan and I owned the label that purchased his catalogue, my first instinct would be to find a way to maximise profits. I would release some of the vault stuff as Prince, but I would also consider giving songs to my big stars of the day. My shareholders would be very happy if I was making millions by giving songs to the Beyonce's, Taylor Swifts, Katy Perrys and Justin Biebers of this world rather than making less releasing it as Prince.

In order for the vault material to not get raped liked that, it would need someone who cares about the legacy and wants to be true to Prince. Im not sure a label would have those best intentions, and, depending on how much money is owed in taxes, Im not sure the family would be in a financial position to either.

I find it very difficult to see how someone who really cares would end up being in control of the vault. It is clearly a very valuable asset and the industry vultures are circling. With so many songs in there, it would be a record labels dream aquisition. All those songs, written and compiled. No need to hire songwriters for years, they would have a production line of music and the high profile stars to deliver it.

Unreleased compositions can't be recorded/performed by someone else without appropriate permissions. I believe the estate could sell the rights to release his recordings and only those rights.

By definition whomever inherits Prince's estate will enjoy the same rights as he did regarding everything he composed and recorded.

KaresB said:

eyewishuheaven said:

She feels that if P wanted any of it released, he'd have released it.

I don't share this feeling, and would point to Crystal Ball '87 as 'Exhibit A'.

Sheila and all others who frequently come up with this argument should know well that Prince changed his mind about releases constantly! In other words: even Prince himself didn't know (wasn't sure) what he wanted to do with the vault. He most probably was still far too more focused on creating new stuff than to make plans for his back catalog.

He was an artist so creative that he has often lost interest in what he did the day before because of new ideas coming to him all the time. People who know him (and I think we, having followed his every step for decades can safely claim we knew him to a certain extent too) shoud not have expected him to have clear, final release plans and decisions in regards to thousands of tapes he's done ages ago.

He must've thought he had several decades ahead of him, thus plenty of time to sort all that stuff out later and make decisions. Decisions he still would've changed the next day.


So in my view everything should be released (except for the real insignificant stuff), even if it goes against something he might have said in an interview. He has often talked bs just to stir controversy anyway.

[Edited 5/22/16 11:52am]

Prince didnt have the time to mix his own material now (he was involved with too many things to do), his recent re-recording and choices of mixes, he doesn't realize his music as is, PERFECTLY FINE. He thought he had the best ideas for that, when clearly people who have this one focus/vision will do better with his recorded material, than he could ever be doing in his final years on earth.

Release ALL OF THE VAULT. No one is going to care except some fidgety OCD fan in bumblefuck nowheresville and Sheila E & a handful of mad engineers.

Prince's legacy is fine whatever they release. Rehearsals, tapes with Nixon, Sex orgy tapes,

They could release every scrap of tape, it isn't the end of the world. That's reality, folks.

There is so much recorded music on the planet now in circulation, boat loads of out of print,bootlegs,rare, private presses, (thanks to streaming technology) that Prince will be that exclamation point on the sentence of recorded music. But music moves too fucking fast for anyone to even give him more than a "OMG dont do that, this is a travesty"

Just too much material coming out that is so daunting in terms of keeping track, let the music just be dumped on the world. If you are going to get mad at that, understand with that level of material no one is going to go through it. One person's "meh" is another listeners "whoa this is amazing" That's why NO ONE is in any jurisdiction to say "No no no dont let anyone hear it" Truthfully that's some whiny b.s. I can't endorse.

IT ISNT GOING TO MATTER ONE BLIP if ITS SONGS WE LOVE OR SONGS WE WISH NEVER CAME OUT.

Trust me, fellow orgers. No one is going to give a shit except your irate cousin, unless you are that irate cousin. And if you are mad, you will only be mad for a day and find a new outrage to latch on to. But life is too precious to even spend time & energy debating on something that is inevitable. Let's hear it ALL... whatever's there.

There will always be a prince vault, you could never access. It's called his mind. Maybe when we pass on there will be akashic record of everything Prince thought up musically we can access at random. "Hello, you've accessed Prince's complete Akashic Sound & Visual Record Experience, Prince isn't here right now, he's swimming in the seas of Venus, that's what dolphins love to do. Would you like to start now? Please say *If you can describe it, it probably isn't funky* Thank you The first note you will hear is Prince as a fetus, please skip ahead if time constraints are an issue"

Rebeljuice said:

If I wasnt a Prince fan and I owned the label that purchased his catalogue, my first instinct would be to find a way to maximise profits. I would release some of the vault stuff as Prince, but I would also consider giving songs to my big stars of the day. My shareholders would be very happy if I was making millions by giving songs to the Beyonce's, Taylor Swifts, Katy Perrys and Justin Biebers of this world rather than making less releasing it as Prince.

In order for the vault material to not get raped liked that, it would need someone who cares about the legacy and wants to be true to Prince. Im not sure a label would have those best intentions, and, depending on how much money is owed in taxes, Im not sure the family would be in a financial position to either.

I find it very difficult to see how someone who really cares would end up being in control of the vault. It is clearly a very valuable asset and the industry vultures are circling. With so many songs in there, it would be a record labels dream aquisition. All those songs, written and compiled. No need to hire songwriters for years, they would have a production line of music and the high profile stars to deliver it.

RELEASE IT ALL...

Our time is finite. If it's on tape, put it out. Put out all the rehearsals,jams,click tracks, ... I dont care who makes money off it, don't give it to anybody. Just release it, put a price on it & keep it moving.

ladycat said:

Databank, it seems to be a little more complicated than that. Apparently Prince had changed some terms in order to release other works, but the terms of the act don't include siblings, only the executor. I don't know much about US copyright, but the article below explains more. Apologies if it's posted on the PRINCE Act thread. https://paynebritton.word...nsfer/amp/

Very interesting and informative article. It will be a long time before there is any resolution in regards to his works (if I read the article correctly).

eyewishuheaven said:

Lizzypoo said:

Why didn't Sheila want the music in the vault released?

She feels that if P wanted any of it released, he'd have released it.

I don't share this feeling, and would point to Crystal Ball '87 as 'Exhibit A'.

(This is, in part, a repeat of my previous post on this thread.)

These are PRINCE'S WORDS regarding his unreleased music in his Vault>> "Someday, SOMEONE will release them - I don't know that I will get to release them." These are his exact words, and they are taped - this was during an episode of The View. I don't know the date of this episode of The View. But I do know the date this was published on YouTube: Sept. 17, 2012.

Watch it for yourself: Title - "Prince on His Music The View".
https://www.youtube.com/w..._U2p4Peo6U
At no time, during this episode, did Prince give any indication that he didn't want his music released. In fact, he gave me the impression that he expected someone else would be releasing his music from his Vault in the future. But this was just my impression.

I don't personally know Sheila, but I don't trust her. I think she can be too self-serving at times. Then again, I don't personally know Sheila. I don't think this is her decision to make.

ladycat said:

Databank, it seems to be a little more complicated than that. Apparently Prince had changed some terms in order to release other works, but the terms of the act don't include siblings, only the executor. I don't know much about US copyright, but the article below explains more. Apologies if it's posted on the PRINCE Act thread. https://paynebritton.word...nsfer/amp/

I'm a little confused: I skimmed the whole thing ans it seems to me the only issue is about the transfer of masters rights according to the 35 years law, only now Prince has got his own WB catalogue back, + most of Paisley Park, + everything post 1996, + every single thing in the vault. The only things that eluded him at the time he passed are the Jaimie Starr productions and a few later Paisley Park releases (which I'm sure he wanted to reclaim eventually), as well as the songs he gave to other artists that featured his own background recordings (which I don't think he could have reclaimed, at least not easily). I doubt his estate will fight WB for The Time, the 6's or Sheila E, let alone other labels for various random songs.

Correct me if I've missed something important in the article but my impression is that P's siblings are just prevented from reclaiming any further masters from a label, and I don't think it's a big deal for them. It is possible though, in that case, that they'd have to find an agreement with WB to release some unreleased songs by The Time, the 6's and Sheila, and to release Prince's version of songs that have been released with someone else's vocals, it's a pity but I don't think it's gonna be their priority when it comes to reissues.

Trickology said:

Rebeljuice said:

If I wasnt a Prince fan and I owned the label that purchased his catalogue, my first instinct would be to find a way to maximise profits. I would release some of the vault stuff as Prince, but I would also consider giving songs to my big stars of the day. My shareholders would be very happy if I was making millions by giving songs to the Beyonce's, Taylor Swifts, Katy Perrys and Justin Biebers of this world rather than making less releasing it as Prince.

In order for the vault material to not get raped liked that, it would need someone who cares about the legacy and wants to be true to Prince. Im not sure a label would have those best intentions, and, depending on how much money is owed in taxes, Im not sure the family would be in a financial position to either.

I find it very difficult to see how someone who really cares would end up being in control of the vault. It is clearly a very valuable asset and the industry vultures are circling. With so many songs in there, it would be a record labels dream aquisition. All those songs, written and compiled. No need to hire songwriters for years, they would have a production line of music and the high profile stars to deliver it.

RELEASE IT ALL...

Our time is finite. If it's on tape, put it out. Put out all the rehearsals,jams,click tracks, ... I dont care who makes money off it, don't give it to anybody. Just release it, put a price on it & keep it moving.

u mad....there wouldnt be enough time to "absorb" it all....i get that way when new boots come out and overlap..there needs to be reasonable time between releases

ladycat said:

Databank, it seems to be a little more complicated than that. Apparently Prince had changed some terms in order to release other works, but the terms of the act don't include siblings, only the executor. I don't know much about US copyright, but the article below explains more. Apologies if it's posted on the PRINCE Act thread. https://paynebritton.word...nsfer/amp/

Thank you for this link. We are hoping for a separate sticky to be created for estate/rights/who controls Prince's legacy, especially if no will is found. Your linked article was written well enough that non-lawyers could follow it. Thank you.

IstenSzek said:

On his unreleased music:

I've never said this before, but I didn't always give the record companies the best song. There are songs in the vault that no one's ever heard. There are several vaults; it's not just one vault.

Are there full unreleased albums?

Yeah, I like time capsule stuff. I have a couple Revolution albums in the vault and two Time albums, one Vanity 6 album … and tons of stuff recorded in different periods. But so much gets recorded that you don't have time to compile everything. In the future you could put all the best stuff from one particular time period together and then you can release it. It'd just be like if we found a Sly and the Family Stone album and they saved their best stuff. If that's even possible!



from the 2014 rolling stone interview:

http://www.rollingstone.c...e-20160422

"but I didnt always give the record companies the best song."

Thats insane. The idea that theres music thats better than what was released is absolutley insane. And I hope they find a way to release it and not destroy it like some people are suggesting.

databank said:

ladycat said:

Databank, it seems to be a little more complicated than that. Apparently Prince had changed some terms in order to release other works, but the terms of the act don't include siblings, only the executor. I don't know much about US copyright, but the article below explains more. Apologies if it's posted on the PRINCE Act thread. https://paynebritton.word...nsfer/amp/

I'm a little confused: I skimmed the whole thing ans it seems to me the only issue is about the transfer of masters rights according to the 35 years law, only now Prince has got his own WB catalogue back, + most of Paisley Park, + everything post 1996, + every single thing in the vault. The only things that eluded him at the time he passed are the Jaimie Starr productions and a few later Paisley Park releases (which I'm sure he wanted to reclaim eventually), as well as the songs he gave to other artists that featured his own background recordings (which I don't think he could have reclaimed, at least not easily). I doubt his estate will fight WB for The Time, the 6's or Sheila E, let alone other labels for various random songs.

Correct me if I've missed something important in the article but my impression is that P's siblings are just prevented from reclaiming any further masters from a label, and I don't think it's a big deal for them. It is possible though, in that case, that they'd have to find an agreement with WB to release some unreleased songs by The Time, the 6's and Sheila, and to release Prince's version of songs that have been released with someone else's vocals, it's a pity but I don't think it's gonna be their priority when it comes to reissues.

This was a good article. Seemed to clear a lot of things up for me.

Basically what the article is saying is that Prince was approaching the 35 year mark for his most lucrative albums and had the right to terminate the rights to WB as the 35 year approached. What WB and Prince did instead was renegotiate the deal essentially resetting the 35 year clock. WB retained the rights to distribute the music and gave Prince back his masters. On the face of it, it looks like Prince got the better part of the deal. But the truth is WB did. Instead of WB losing ALL rights to his albums over time (as each album reached the 35 year mark) they got another 35 years of distribution rights for all his albums recorded under WB. Giving back Prince his masters seems to be more of a carrot to entice Prince into signing the deal. Prince took the carrot because he wanted his masters and could show the world he "won". It seems WB were happy to let Prince think this and shout it from the rooftops. The truth is, WB still have a firm grip on his WB catalogue and, it seems, were in no rush to do anything with it (no PR reissue) implying they had made a deal with a long term view. And now with Prince gone, they may well have made one of the best deals in their history. They signed the deal in 2014 so they have the rights for For You for another 33 years, and even then Prince's siblings do not have the right to terminate the deal, only parents, children, grandchildren or the administrator of the estate have the right of termination.

So whilst WB may have given up a percentage of what they get for any rerelease by giving up the masters, they still hold the biggest asset - the exclusive right to distribute, and they have those rights for at least another 35 years. I think they may now need permission from the estate to release anything though as the estate owns the masters. I presume WB knew Prince in many cases would have refused a rerelease, but they were playing the long game and knew Prince wouldnt live forever. It seems in his obsession to get back from WB what he rightly thought was his to own, Prince ended up extending WB's grip on his music.

If Prince was to live another 15 years (2031 is when he could have been able to terminate the rights to C&D) he would then have owned everything under his WB contract, and WB would have nothing, and I would have said this new WB deal he signed in 2014 was a very stupid thing to have signed. But because he has died, maybe it was the best thing he did. I dunno.... All I know is, whenever any of his WB catalogue is to be released in the future, whilst it will have the NPG Records logo on it, it will also have the WB logo on it.

The question I have with all of this is, what does this mean for all of the unreleased music created whilst still with WB? Because if they still retain any rights to that, then WB have a big say on what Vault material, including unreleased Revolution albums gets released, no matter who ends up owning the vault.

Rebeljuice said:

databank said:

I'm a little confused: I skimmed the whole thing ans it seems to me the only issue is about the transfer of masters rights according to the 35 years law, only now Prince has got his own WB catalogue back, + most of Paisley Park, + everything post 1996, + every single thing in the vault. The only things that eluded him at the time he passed are the Jaimie Starr productions and a few later Paisley Park releases (which I'm sure he wanted to reclaim eventually), as well as the songs he gave to other artists that featured his own background recordings (which I don't think he could have reclaimed, at least not easily). I doubt his estate will fight WB for The Time, the 6's or Sheila E, let alone other labels for various random songs.

Correct me if I've missed something important in the article but my impression is that P's siblings are just prevented from reclaiming any further masters from a label, and I don't think it's a big deal for them. It is possible though, in that case, that they'd have to find an agreement with WB to release some unreleased songs by The Time, the 6's and Sheila, and to release Prince's version of songs that have been released with someone else's vocals, it's a pity but I don't think it's gonna be their priority when it comes to reissues.

This was a good article. Seemed to clear a lot of things up for me.

Basically what the article is saying is that Prince was approaching the 35 year mark for his most lucrative albums and had the right to terminate the rights to WB as the 35 year approached. What WB and Prince did instead was renegotiate the deal essentially resetting the 35 year clock. WB retained the rights to distribute the music and gave Prince back his masters. On the face of it, it looks like Prince got the better part of the deal. But the truth is WB did. Instead of WB losing ALL rights to his albums over time (as each album reached the 35 year mark) they got another 35 years of distribution rights for all his albums recorded under WB. Giving back Prince his masters seems to be more of a carrot to entice Prince into signing the deal. Prince took the carrot because he wanted his masters and could show the world he "won". It seems WB were happy to let Prince think this and shout it from the rooftops. The truth is, WB still have a firm grip on his WB catalogue and, it seems, were in no rush to do anything with it (no PR reissue) implying they had made a deal with a long term view. And now with Prince gone, they may well have made one of the best deals in their history. They signed the deal in 2014 so they have the rights for For You for another 33 years, and even then Prince's siblings do not have the right to terminate the deal, only parents, children, grandchildren or the administrator of the estate have the right of termination.

So whilst WB may have given up a percentage of what they get for any rerelease by giving up the masters, they still hold the biggest asset - the exclusive right to distribute, and they have those rights for at least another 35 years. I think they may now need permission from the estate to release anything though as the estate owns the masters. I presume WB knew Prince in many cases would have refused a rerelease, but they were playing the long game and knew Prince wouldnt live forever. It seems in his obsession to get back from WB what he rightly thought was his to own, Prince ended up extending WB's grip on his music.

If Prince was to live another 15 years (2031 is when he could have been able to terminate the rights to C&D) he would then have owned everything under his WB contract, and WB would have nothing, and I would have said this new WB deal he signed in 2014 was a very stupid thing to have signed. But because he has died, maybe it was the best thing he did. I dunno.... All I know is, whenever any of his WB catalogue is to be released in the future, whilst it will have the NPG Records logo on it, it will also have the WB logo on it.

The question I have with all of this is, what does this mean for all of the unreleased music created whilst still with WB? Because if they still retain any rights to that, then WB have a big say on what Vault material, including unreleased Revolution albums gets released, no matter who ends up owning the vault.

Everything he recorded during the term of his WB contracts (1978-1996) is Warner's to release, even if they don't own the masters anymore. This could have been one of the reasons why he didn't give them more unreleased stuff, most probably he didn't want to create more and more WB releases that would be theirs for at least 35 years. (The recent AOA and PE releases have nothing to do with this as they were simply licensed to WB in a distribution-only deal.)

Now the masters will be owned by the estate, but they will only be able to license them for release to WB – unless WB grants them the right to put out something on another label, as they allowed Prince to do this for one single in the past (TMBGITW), but I think that's highly unlikely to happen again.

Surely there will be some legal arguments too in regards to material that was originally recorded between '78 and '96, but it was reworked after '96. WB will claim it's theirs to release, the estate will claim it has been reworked significantly after 1996, so they're free to licence it to whomever they want to.


The bottom line is: we are in for a VERY long wait before any vault releases would start appearing...

[Edited 5/26/16 4:17am]

Rebeljuice said:

databank said:

I'm a little confused: I skimmed the whole thing ans it seems to me the only issue is about the transfer of masters rights according to the 35 years law, only now Prince has got his own WB catalogue back, + most of Paisley Park, + everything post 1996, + every single thing in the vault. The only things that eluded him at the time he passed are the Jaimie Starr productions and a few later Paisley Park releases (which I'm sure he wanted to reclaim eventually), as well as the songs he gave to other artists that featured his own background recordings (which I don't think he could have reclaimed, at least not easily). I doubt his estate will fight WB for The Time, the 6's or Sheila E, let alone other labels for various random songs.

Correct me if I've missed something important in the article but my impression is that P's siblings are just prevented from reclaiming any further masters from a label, and I don't think it's a big deal for them. It is possible though, in that case, that they'd have to find an agreement with WB to release some unreleased songs by The Time, the 6's and Sheila, and to release Prince's version of songs that have been released with someone else's vocals, it's a pity but I don't think it's gonna be their priority when it comes to reissues.

This was a good article. Seemed to clear a lot of things up for me.

Basically what the article is saying is that Prince was approaching the 35 year mark for his most lucrative albums and had the right to terminate the rights to WB as the 35 year approached. What WB and Prince did instead was renegotiate the deal essentially resetting the 35 year clock. WB retained the rights to distribute the music and gave Prince back his masters. On the face of it, it looks like Prince got the better part of the deal. But the truth is WB did. Instead of WB losing ALL rights to his albums over time (as each album reached the 35 year mark) they got another 35 years of distribution rights for all his albums recorded under WB. Giving back Prince his masters seems to be more of a carrot to entice Prince into signing the deal. Prince took the carrot because he wanted his masters and could show the world he "won". It seems WB were happy to let Prince think this and shout it from the rooftops. The truth is, WB still have a firm grip on his WB catalogue and, it seems, were in no rush to do anything with it (no PR reissue) implying they had made a deal with a long term view. And now with Prince gone, they may well have made one of the best deals in their history. They signed the deal in 2014 so they have the rights for For You for another 33 years, and even then Prince's siblings do not have the right to terminate the deal, only parents, children, grandchildren or the administrator of the estate have the right of termination.

So whilst WB may have given up a percentage of what they get for any rerelease by giving up the masters, they still hold the biggest asset - the exclusive right to distribute, and they have those rights for at least another 35 years. I think they may now need permission from the estate to release anything though as the estate owns the masters. I presume WB knew Prince in many cases would have refused a rerelease, but they were playing the long game and knew Prince wouldnt live forever. It seems in his obsession to get back from WB what he rightly thought was his to own, Prince ended up extending WB's grip on his music.

If Prince was to live another 15 years (2031 is when he could have been able to terminate the rights to C&D) he would then have owned everything under his WB contract, and WB would have nothing, and I would have said this new WB deal he signed in 2014 was a very stupid thing to have signed. But because he has died, maybe it was the best thing he did. I dunno.... All I know is, whenever any of his WB catalogue is to be released in the future, whilst it will have the NPG Records logo on it, it will also have the WB logo on it.

The question I have with all of this is, what does this mean for all of the unreleased music created whilst still with WB? Because if they still retain any rights to that, then WB have a big say on what Vault material, including unreleased Revolution albums gets released, no matter who ends up owning the vault.

Thanks for 4 clarifying but... wait a minute: do they actually reveal in the article that Prince signed a 35 years licencing deal with WB? If so I missed that line (but as I said I skimmed). AFAIK no one knows the specifics of the 2014 deal so far, for all we know WB only has distribution exclusivity for 5 years, or 2, or 10, or forever, but why 35 years???

KaresB said:

Rebeljuice said:

This was a good article. Seemed to clear a lot of things up for me.

Basically what the article is saying is that Prince was approaching the 35 year mark for his most lucrative albums and had the right to terminate the rights to WB as the 35 year approached. What WB and Prince did instead was renegotiate the deal essentially resetting the 35 year clock. WB retained the rights to distribute the music and gave Prince back his masters. On the face of it, it looks like Prince got the better part of the deal. But the truth is WB did. Instead of WB losing ALL rights to his albums over time (as each album reached the 35 year mark) they got another 35 years of distribution rights for all his albums recorded under WB. Giving back Prince his masters seems to be more of a carrot to entice Prince into signing the deal. Prince took the carrot because he wanted his masters and could show the world he "won". It seems WB were happy to let Prince think this and shout it from the rooftops. The truth is, WB still have a firm grip on his WB catalogue and, it seems, were in no rush to do anything with it (no PR reissue) implying they had made a deal with a long term view. And now with Prince gone, they may well have made one of the best deals in their history. They signed the deal in 2014 so they have the rights for For You for another 33 years, and even then Prince's siblings do not have the right to terminate the deal, only parents, children, grandchildren or the administrator of the estate have the right of termination.

So whilst WB may have given up a percentage of what they get for any rerelease by giving up the masters, they still hold the biggest asset - the exclusive right to distribute, and they have those rights for at least another 35 years. I think they may now need permission from the estate to release anything though as the estate owns the masters. I presume WB knew Prince in many cases would have refused a rerelease, but they were playing the long game and knew Prince wouldnt live forever. It seems in his obsession to get back from WB what he rightly thought was his to own, Prince ended up extending WB's grip on his music.

If Prince was to live another 15 years (2031 is when he could have been able to terminate the rights to C&D) he would then have owned everything under his WB contract, and WB would have nothing, and I would have said this new WB deal he signed in 2014 was a very stupid thing to have signed. But because he has died, maybe it was the best thing he did. I dunno.... All I know is, whenever any of his WB catalogue is to be released in the future, whilst it will have the NPG Records logo on it, it will also have the WB logo on it.

The question I have with all of this is, what does this mean for all of the unreleased music created whilst still with WB? Because if they still retain any rights to that, then WB have a big say on what Vault material, including unreleased Revolution albums gets released, no matter who ends up owning the vault.

Everything he recorded during the term of his WB contracts (1978-1996) is Warner's to release, even if they don't own the masters anymore. This could have been one of the reasons why he didn't give them more unreleased stuff, most probably he didn't want to create more and more WB releases that would be theirs for at least 35 years. (The recent AOA and PE releases have nothing to do with this as they were simply licensed to WB in a distribution-only deal.)

Now the masters will be owned by the estate, but they will only be able to license them for release to WB – unless WB grants them the right to put out something on another label, as they allowed Prince to do this for one single in the past (TMBGITW), but I think that's highly unlikely to happen again.

Surely there will be some legal arguments too in regards to material that was originally recorded between '78 and '96, but it was reworked after '96. WB will claim it's theirs to release, the estate will claim it has been reworked significantly after 1996, so they're free to licence it to whomever they want to.


The bottom line is: we are in for a VERY long wait before any vault releases would start appearing...

[Edited 5/26/16 4:17am]

A logical assupmtion is that any vault material from 1978-1995 falls under WB's exclusive licence, but as no one knows for a fact the details of the arrangement it's hard to say.

In fact now that Prince is gone it would be really nice if either WB or P's esate when it's determined would just TELL publicly what the implications of the 2014 deal is. Prince loved playing hide and seek but now that he's gone all this secrecy is nothing but irritating...

databank said:

Rebeljuice said:

This was a good article. Seemed to clear a lot of things up for me.

Basically what the article is saying is that Prince was approaching the 35 year mark for his most lucrative albums and had the right to terminate the rights to WB as the 35 year approached. What WB and Prince did instead was renegotiate the deal essentially resetting the 35 year clock. WB retained the rights to distribute the music and gave Prince back his masters. On the face of it, it looks like Prince got the better part of the deal. But the truth is WB did. Instead of WB losing ALL rights to his albums over time (as each album reached the 35 year mark) they got another 35 years of distribution rights for all his albums recorded under WB. Giving back Prince his masters seems to be more of a carrot to entice Prince into signing the deal. Prince took the carrot because he wanted his masters and could show the world he "won". It seems WB were happy to let Prince think this and shout it from the rooftops. The truth is, WB still have a firm grip on his WB catalogue and, it seems, were in no rush to do anything with it (no PR reissue) implying they had made a deal with a long term view. And now with Prince gone, they may well have made one of the best deals in their history. They signed the deal in 2014 so they have the rights for For You for another 33 years, and even then Prince's siblings do not have the right to terminate the deal, only parents, children, grandchildren or the administrator of the estate have the right of termination.

So whilst WB may have given up a percentage of what they get for any rerelease by giving up the masters, they still hold the biggest asset - the exclusive right to distribute, and they have those rights for at least another 35 years. I think they may now need permission from the estate to release anything though as the estate owns the masters. I presume WB knew Prince in many cases would have refused a rerelease, but they were playing the long game and knew Prince wouldnt live forever. It seems in his obsession to get back from WB what he rightly thought was his to own, Prince ended up extending WB's grip on his music.

If Prince was to live another 15 years (2031 is when he could have been able to terminate the rights to C&D) he would then have owned everything under his WB contract, and WB would have nothing, and I would have said this new WB deal he signed in 2014 was a very stupid thing to have signed. But because he has died, maybe it was the best thing he did. I dunno.... All I know is, whenever any of his WB catalogue is to be released in the future, whilst it will have the NPG Records logo on it, it will also have the WB logo on it.

The question I have with all of this is, what does this mean for all of the unreleased music created whilst still with WB? Because if they still retain any rights to that, then WB have a big say on what Vault material, including unreleased Revolution albums gets released, no matter who ends up owning the vault.

Thanks for 4 clarifying but... wait a minute: do they actually reveal in the article that Prince signed a 35 years licencing deal with WB? If so I missed that line (but as I said I skimmed). AFAIK no one knows the specifics of the 2014 deal so far, for all we know WB only has distribution exclusivity for 5 years, or 2, or 10, or forever, but why 35 years???

Well, the article says that by signing the new deal it essentially reset the clock so the 35 year cycle begins again. But you are right, there could have been a clause in the deal limiting the time. The only reason Im not sure there is such a clause is because it looked like such a win/win for Prince and WB got stung somewhat. I have always found it hard to understand how/why WB would agree to such a thing. But resetting the clock on the 35 year termination makes sense and actually gives WB the stronger side of the deal. The article says that record companies are actually being quite generous to their older artists when signing new deals and the reason is because they get to keep certain rights for another 35 years. I wonder how many artists avtually know that by signing a new agreement they are resetting the clock?

databank said:

In fact now that Prince is gone it would be really nice if either WB or P's esate when it's determined would just TELL publicly what the implications of the 2014 deal is. Prince loved playing hide and seek but now that he's gone all this secrecy is nothing but irritating...

Here's some speculative confusion:

Suppose that the estate needs to sell the vault to raise money for taxes etc, there is a bidding war, and Sony win!

Rebeljuice said:

databank said:

Thanks for 4 clarifying but... wait a minute: do they actually reveal in the article that Prince signed a 35 years licencing deal with WB? If so I missed that line (but as I said I skimmed). AFAIK no one knows the specifics of the 2014 deal so far, for all we know WB only has distribution exclusivity for 5 years, or 2, or 10, or forever, but why 35 years???

Well, the article says that by signing the new deal it essentially reset the clock so the 35 year cycle begins again. But you are right, there could have been a clause in the deal limiting the time. The only reason Im not sure there is such a clause is because it looked like such a win/win for Prince and WB got stung somewhat. I have always found it hard to understand how/why WB would agree to such a thing. But resetting the clock on the 35 year termination makes sense and actually gives WB the stronger side of the deal. The article says that record companies are actually being quite generous to their older artists when signing new deals and the reason is because they get to keep certain rights for another 35 years. I wonder how many artists avtually know that by signing a new agreement they are resetting the clock?

Whatever the conditions I think WB went for it because basically if not they were sure to lose every album year after year, after 35 years, and to "punish" them Prince would certainly NOT have allowed them to release any remaster with bonus unreleased material before or after the 35 years, meaning 2017: oops, Sony gets the 1999 remaster with Moonbeam Levels; 2019: oops, Universal gets the PR remaster with Electric Intercourse; 2026: oops: Virgin gets the D&P remaster with Schoolyard and so on. WB was better off keeping distribution and getting exclusive rereleases than keeping a catalogue that was selling quite little at this stage, and would keep selling less overtime, with one new album taken away from them every year. Of course Prince died and sales blew up, but WB couldn't know that in 2014.

http://www.rollingstone.c...mg00000063

[Edited 5/27/16 14:21pm]

hifidelity67 said:

databank said:

Rebeljuice said:

Well, the article says that by signing the new deal it essentially reset the clock so the 35 year cycle begins again. But you are right, there could have been a clause in the deal limiting the time. The only reason Im not sure there is such a clause is because it looked like such a win/win for Prince and WB got stung somewhat. I have always found it hard to understand how/why WB would agree to such a thing. But resetting the clock on the 35 year termination makes sense and actually gives WB the stronger side of the deal. The article says that record companies are actually being quite generous to their older artists when signing new deals and the reason is because they get to keep certain rights for another 35 years. I wonder how many artists avtually know that by signing a new agreement they are resetting the clock?

Whatever the conditions I think WB went for it because basically if not they were sure to lose every album year after year, after 35 years,

.

Again: nonsense. If that's the case there would be news about such cases and there simply isn't. Laws are interpreted by lawyers, and no record company would just hand over valuable assets like that without putting up a fight.

KaresB said:

Rebeljuice said:

This was a good article. Seemed to clear a lot of things up for me.

Basically what the article is saying is that Prince was approaching the 35 year mark for his most lucrative albums and had the right to terminate the rights to WB as the 35 year approached. What WB and Prince did instead was renegotiate the deal essentially resetting the 35 year clock. WB retained the rights to distribute the music and gave Prince back his masters. On the face of it, it looks like Prince got the better part of the deal. But the truth is WB did. Instead of WB losing ALL rights to his albums over time (as each album reached the 35 year mark) they got another 35 years of distribution rights for all his albums recorded under WB. Giving back Prince his masters seems to be more of a carrot to entice Prince into signing the deal. Prince took the carrot because he wanted his masters and could show the world he "won". It seems WB were happy to let Prince think this and shout it from the rooftops. The truth is, WB still have a firm grip on his WB catalogue and, it seems, were in no rush to do anything with it (no PR reissue) implying they had made a deal with a long term view. And now with Prince gone, they may well have made one of the best deals in their history. They signed the deal in 2014 so they have the rights for For You for another 33 years, and even then Prince's siblings do not have the right to terminate the deal, only parents, children, grandchildren or the administrator of the estate have the right of termination.

So whilst WB may have given up a percentage of what they get for any rerelease by giving up the masters, they still hold the biggest asset - the exclusive right to distribute, and they have those rights for at least another 35 years. I think they may now need permission from the estate to release anything though as the estate owns the masters. I presume WB knew Prince in many cases would have refused a rerelease, but they were playing the long game and knew Prince wouldnt live forever. It seems in his obsession to get back from WB what he rightly thought was his to own, Prince ended up extending WB's grip on his music.

If Prince was to live another 15 years (2031 is when he could have been able to terminate the rights to C&D) he would then have owned everything under his WB contract, and WB would have nothing, and I would have said this new WB deal he signed in 2014 was a very stupid thing to have signed. But because he has died, maybe it was the best thing he did. I dunno.... All I know is, whenever any of his WB catalogue is to be released in the future, whilst it will have the NPG Records logo on it, it will also have the WB logo on it.

The question I have with all of this is, what does this mean for all of the unreleased music created whilst still with WB? Because if they still retain any rights to that, then WB have a big say on what Vault material, including unreleased Revolution albums gets released, no matter who ends up owning the vault.

Everything he recorded during the term of his WB contracts (1978-1996) is Warner's to release, even if they don't own the masters anymore. This could have been one of the reasons why he didn't give them more unreleased stuff, most probably he didn't want to create more and more WB releases that would be theirs for at least 35 years. (The recent AOA and PE releases have nothing to do with this as they were simply licensed to WB in a distribution-only deal.)

Now the masters will be owned by the estate, but they will only be able to license them for release to WB – unless WB grants them the right to put out something on another label, as they allowed Prince to do this for one single in the past (TMBGITW), but I think that's highly unlikely to happen again.

Surely there will be some legal arguments too in regards to material that was originally recorded between '78 and '96, but it was reworked after '96. WB will claim it's theirs to release, the estate will claim it has been reworked significantly after 1996, so they're free to licence it to whomever they want to.


The bottom line is: we are in for a VERY long wait before any vault releases would start appearing...

[Edited 5/26/16 4:17am]

Some things will come out shortly, people have tapes sitting around. We don't need a cd on the shelf to get a vault release. Soundcloud & Mixcloud will take care of that. I'm betting on June 7th.

[Edited 5/28/16 11:42am]

Soundcloud & Mixcloud will take care of that. I'm betting on June 7th.

Woohoo .. ya baby bring it my pcs ready to be blasted again with rich sound of purple glory.