Okay, so from the information I've mentaly pieced together through various readings is that Prince was shipping his production to other artists in 1987. On this tape, featuresd 1987 reworks of Wonderful Ass, Traffic Jam and a few others.

1. Is this concept accurate, if so, please elaborate?

2. What other songs were reworked and on these tapes?

tab32792 said:

He sent miles Davis & guitarist Foley a tape of songs as well in late 87. So far I only know for sure Movie Star was on it and Chocolate. Miles band did movie star live for a year. Chocolate was never performed unfortunately.

Very interesting, thank you!

bluegangsta said:

Okay, so from the information I've mentaly pieced together through various readings is that Prince was shipping his production to other artists in 1987. On this tape, featuresd 1987 reworks of Wonderful Ass, Traffic Jam and a few others.

1. Is this concept accurate, if so, please elaborate?

2. What other songs were reworked and on these tapes?

I have no idea what tape u r talking about but I'd love to know more

Reportedly the one minute snippets that surfaced about a decade ago were from such a demo for other artists tape and edited to prevent leaks, but I always suspected this was a hoax and the songs had been edited by elite collectors to "share them without sharing them".

databank said:

bluegangsta said:

Okay, so from the information I've mentaly pieced together through various readings is that Prince was shipping his production to other artists in 1987. On this tape, featuresd 1987 reworks of Wonderful Ass, Traffic Jam and a few others.

1. Is this concept accurate, if so, please elaborate?

2. What other songs were reworked and on these tapes?

I have no idea what tape u r talking about but I'd love to know more

Reportedly the one minute snippets that surfaced about a decade ago were from such a demo for other artists tape and edited to prevent leaks, but I always suspected this was a hoax and the songs had been edited by elite collectors to "share them without sharing them".

I think you're right, because magically, two-minute snippets appeared, then suddenly, the full songs!

billymeade said:

databank said:

I have no idea what tape u r talking about but I'd love to know more

Reportedly the one minute snippets that surfaced about a decade ago were from such a demo for other artists tape and edited to prevent leaks, but I always suspected this was a hoax and the songs had been edited by elite collectors to "share them without sharing them".

I think you're right, because magically, two-minute snippets appeared, then suddenly, the full songs!

.

Regardless of whether that tape, which was said to include "snippets" or "teasers" of "Hard to Get" (1981), "Traffic Jam" (1984), "Adonis and Bathsheba" (1986), "Cosmic Day" (1986), "Everybody Wants What They Don't Got" (1986), and others, is legitimately a tape that was shopped around to other artists and their managers (an earlier rumor attributed the tape to late 1988 or early 1989), an ambition to rebrand, or expand the business reach of Prince as a venerable producer for other artists seems to have been something high on WB/P's management's list of priorities in the time period immediately following the UTCM/Parade/post-Revolution era ('solo again', after giving up any pretense of having at-all-times coequal bandmembers). The idea that Prince could be a sure-fire, go-to-hitmaker-- for other artists-- doesn't seem to have dissipated until ~1991, despite having limited chart showing after 1985 for his productions released by other artists (notwithstanding his composition role in 'Manic Monday' and NC2U).

.

I am undecided myself as to whether the tape is simply a "fake"--being only a provocative tasting of tracks that had been in the hands of elite traders for ages, or whether whoever leaked the snippets merely truncated the full length recordings on a legitimate "shop-around" tape. I don't believe the original "shop-around" tape, if in fact there truly was one, would have been only the excerpts (unless the excerpts together served as a preface to the full length tracks on the remainder of the tape).

.

The version of 'Traffic Jam' obtained through that leak has not yet surfaced in the broader collecting community in full length. It seems odd that, years after the fact, if this is the true origin of it, he would revert to an earlier (arguably superior but less polished) mix of the track when presenting it for others' consideration. Of course, these two versions of it (that we are currently aware of) may simply be alternate mixes from the same period, one happening to incorporate more of the mutlitracks from the original studio session.

.

For a tape alleged to have been compiled in 1988 or 1989, the choice of most the tracks would seem to be a rather odd selection of the range of material that could have been used for that purpose. He could have presented a more viable selection (for what was in favor in the late 1980s) of tracks that were good (but not too good for a non-high-profile or protege artist). The 1986 tracks are eccentric, I can't see them being very useful to another artist, and 'Hard to Get' and 'Traffic Jam' are simply too dated for an artist to plausibly consider for an album that might not receive release until as late as 1990.

.

The idea that they might re-record the material doesn't make perfect sense, given that 'Traffic Jam' is an instrumental that draws heavily on its own production for its chances for success. For non-VIP artists and artists not members of his Purple Kingdom/PP label, I am not certain that P would have fully accepted someone else's arrangement at this point in his career for previously unreleased material, especially if it entailed his having to heavily work with an artist relatively unfamiliar to him. At the same time, he might have lacked the full discretion to disapprove covers of his already released WB material.

.

.

[Edited 7/28/15 12:15pm]

imprimis said:

billymeade said:

I think you're right, because magically, two-minute snippets appeared, then suddenly, the full songs!

.

Regardless of whether that tape, which was said to include "snippets" or "teasers" of "Hard to Get" (1981), "Traffic Jam" (1984), "Adonis and Bathsheba" (1986), "Cosmic Day" (1986), "Everybody Wants What They Don't Got" (1986), and others, is legitimately a tape that was shopped around to other artists and their managers (an earlier rumor attributed the tape to late 1988 or early 1989), an ambition to rebrand, or expand the business reach of Prince as a venerable producer for other artists seems to have been something high on WB/P's management's list of priorities in the time period immediately following the UTCM/Parade/post-Revolution era ('solo again', after giving up any pretense of having at-all-times coequal bandmembers). The idea that Prince could be a sure-fire, go-to-hitmaker-- for other artists-- doesn't seem to have dissipated until ~1991, despite having limited chart showing after 1985 for his productions released by other artists (notwithstanding his composition role in 'Manic Monday' and NC2U).

.

I am undecided myself as to whether the tape is simply a "fake"--being only a provocative tasting of tracks that had been in the hands of elite traders for ages, or whether whoever leaked the snippets merely truncated the full length recordings on a legitimate "shop-around" tape. I don't believe the original "shop-around" tape, if in fact there truly was one, would have been only the excerpts (unless the excerpts together served as a preface to the full length tracks on the remainder of the tape).

.

The version of 'Traffic Jam' obtained through that leak has not yet surfaced in the broader collecting community in full length. It seems odd that, years after the fact, if this is the true origin of it, he would revert to an earlier (arguably superior but less polished) mix of the track when presenting it for others' consideration. Of course, these two versions of it (that we are currently aware of) may simply be alternate mixes from the same period, one happening to incorporate more of the mutlitracks from the original studio session.

.

For a tape alleged to have been compiled in 1988 or 1989, the choice of most the tracks would seem to be a rather odd selection of the range of material that could have been used for that purpose. He could have presented a more viable selection (for what was in favor in the late 1980s) of tracks that were good (but not too good for a non-high-profile or protege artist). The 1986 tracks are eccentric, I can't see them being very useful to another artist, and 'Hard to Get' and 'Traffic Jam' are simply too dated for an artist to plausibly consider for an album that might not receive release until as late as 1990.

.

The idea that they might re-record the material doesn't make perfect sense, given that 'Traffic Jam' is an instrumental that draws heavily on its own production for its chances for success. For non-VIP artists and artists not members of his Purple Kingdom/PP label, I am not certain that P would have fully accepted someone else's arrangement at this point in his career for previously unreleased material, especially if it entailed his having to heavily work with an artist relatively unfamiliar to him. At the same time, he might have lacked the full discretion to disapprove covers of his already released WB material.

.

.

[Edited 7/28/15 12:15pm]

I totally agree with everything u say here

Just regarding the last paragraph there are a few things I'm not sure I understand:

- With This Tear (1992) and Five Women (1991) were rerecorded so I don't think at any point Prince tried to force his version of a song on anyone.

- Prince hardly ever worked in the studio with any of the musicians he gave songs to, he'd send them the multitapes and they'd do whatever they wanted with them (vocal overdubs, instrumental overdubs, editing, or plain rerecording).

- Prince never had the discretion to approve or disapprove any cover of his already released material, as the law guarantees anyone the right to cover any song regardless of the original writers' consent.

[Edited 7/29/15 5:41am]

There is no tape, and there never was a tape.

Militant said:

There is no tape, and there never was a tape.

And there will never be a tape.

databank said:

imprimis said:

.

Regardless of whether that tape, which was said to include "snippets" or "teasers" of "Hard to Get" (1981), "Traffic Jam" (1984), "Adonis and Bathsheba" (1986), "Cosmic Day" (1986), "Everybody Wants What They Don't Got" (1986), and others, is legitimately a tape that was shopped around to other artists and their managers (an earlier rumor attributed the tape to late 1988 or early 1989), an ambition to rebrand, or expand the business reach of Prince as a venerable producer for other artists seems to have been something high on WB/P's management's list of priorities in the time period immediately following the UTCM/Parade/post-Revolution era ('solo again', after giving up any pretense of having at-all-times coequal bandmembers). The idea that Prince could be a sure-fire, go-to-hitmaker-- for other artists-- doesn't seem to have dissipated until ~1991, despite having limited chart showing after 1985 for his productions released by other artists (notwithstanding his composition role in 'Manic Monday' and NC2U).

.

I am undecided myself as to whether the tape is simply a "fake"--being only a provocative tasting of tracks that had been in the hands of elite traders for ages, or whether whoever leaked the snippets merely truncated the full length recordings on a legitimate "shop-around" tape. I don't believe the original "shop-around" tape, if in fact there truly was one, would have been only the excerpts (unless the excerpts together served as a preface to the full length tracks on the remainder of the tape).

.

The version of 'Traffic Jam' obtained through that leak has not yet surfaced in the broader collecting community in full length. It seems odd that, years after the fact, if this is the true origin of it, he would revert to an earlier (arguably superior but less polished) mix of the track when presenting it for others' consideration. Of course, these two versions of it (that we are currently aware of) may simply be alternate mixes from the same period, one happening to incorporate more of the mutlitracks from the original studio session.

.

For a tape alleged to have been compiled in 1988 or 1989, the choice of most the tracks would seem to be a rather odd selection of the range of material that could have been used for that purpose. He could have presented a more viable selection (for what was in favor in the late 1980s) of tracks that were good (but not too good for a non-high-profile or protege artist). The 1986 tracks are eccentric, I can't see them being very useful to another artist, and 'Hard to Get' and 'Traffic Jam' are simply too dated for an artist to plausibly consider for an album that might not receive release until as late as 1990.

.

The idea that they might re-record the material doesn't make perfect sense, given that 'Traffic Jam' is an instrumental that draws heavily on its own production for its chances for success. For non-VIP artists and artists not members of his Purple Kingdom/PP label, I am not certain that P would have fully accepted someone else's arrangement at this point in his career for previously unreleased material, especially if it entailed his having to heavily work with an artist relatively unfamiliar to him. At the same time, he might have lacked the full discretion to disapprove covers of his already released WB material.

.

.

[Edited 7/28/15 12:15pm]

I totally agree with everything u say here

Just regarding the last paragraph there are a few things I'm not sure I understand:

- With This Tear (1992) and Five Women (1991) were rerecorded so I don't think at any point Prince tried to force his version of a song on anyone.

- Prince hardly ever worked in the studio with any of the musicians he gave songs to, he'd send them the multitapes and they'd do whatever they wanted with them (vocal overdubs, instrumental overdubs, editing, or plain rerecording).

- Prince never had the discretion to approve or disapprove any cover of his already released material, as the law guarantees anyone the right to cover any song regardless of the original writers' consent.

[Edited 7/29/15 5:41am]

.

Thank you for your reply. Regarding re-recording, it is my inkling of a feeling that circa 1987-1989, despite the relative upsets of UTCM/Parade/LS, P still likely views himself as a commercial superstar of the absolute highest order (and in 1989, in particular, the general public seems almost overnight to have ranked P 'cool' again, seemingly independent of the Batman project, paving the way to the Nude Tour and D&P to capitalize on this; the SNL '89 performance intro summarizing P as being someone just right for the moment seems fitting here), and as such he would not likely be amenable to having his then-unreleased work fully re-recorded by another artist-- unless that artist were a relatively high profile one, or a protected member of his flock (whether on the PP Label, 'protege', former or current associate, or otherwise). In the case of 'Five Women' and 'With This Tear', I am certain he learned slightly more humility by 1991 or 1992, and that Celine Dion and Joe Cocker should certainly suffice to be deemed relatively 'high profile artists'. For the second response to my last paragraph, I was meaning to say that, if a [relatively unfamiliar] artist could not accept the track almost unconditionally [vocal overdubs and perhaps only small changes], so as to avoid approval requests or tapes being sent back and forth for changes and review, they were not likely going to be granted the permission, even if they expressed interest.

.

[Edited 7/29/15 8:38am]

No, such tape like that exists. What your referring to is just samples of outtakes someone had. No more. No less. I really don't know how that story started but its not true.

imprimis said:

databank said:

I totally agree with everything u say here

Just regarding the last paragraph there are a few things I'm not sure I understand:

- With This Tear (1992) and Five Women (1991) were rerecorded so I don't think at any point Prince tried to force his version of a song on anyone.

- Prince hardly ever worked in the studio with any of the musicians he gave songs to, he'd send them the multitapes and they'd do whatever they wanted with them (vocal overdubs, instrumental overdubs, editing, or plain rerecording).

- Prince never had the discretion to approve or disapprove any cover of his already released material, as the law guarantees anyone the right to cover any song regardless of the original writers' consent.

[Edited 7/29/15 5:41am]

.

Thank you for your reply. Regarding re-recording, it is my inkling of a feeling that circa 1987-1989, despite the relative upsets of UTCM/Parade/LS, P still likely views himself as a commercial superstar of the absolute highest order (and in 1989, in particular, the general public seems almost overnight to have ranked P 'cool' again, seemingly independent of the Batman project, paving the way to the Nude Tour and D&P to capitalize on this; the SNL '89 performance intro summarizing P as being someone just right for the moment seems fitting here), and as such he would not likely be amenable to having his then-unreleased work fully re-recorded by another artist-- unless that artist were a relatively high profile one, or a protected member of his flock (whether on the PP Label, 'protege', former or current associate, or otherwise). In the case of 'Five Women' and 'With This Tear', I am certain he learned slightly more humility by 1991 or 1992, and that Celine Dion and Joe Cocker should certainly suffice to be deemed relatively 'high profile artists'. For the second response to my last paragraph, I was meaning to say that, if a [relatively unfamiliar] artist could not accept the track almost unconditionally [vocal overdubs and perhaps only small changes], so as to avoid approval requests or tapes being sent back and forth for changes and review, they were not likely going to be granted the permission, even if they expressed interest.

.

[Edited 7/29/15 8:38am]

For one thing we have some factual research and interviews regarding this, there are loads of stories about some artists declining using a Prince composition but none, as far as I know, of Prince refusing a composition to an artist. And every story we have about a song he gave says the artist received the multi-track and was absolutely free to do whatever they wanted with it, or rerecord the song altogether. The only time where Prince refused a song was after release, when he asked Ren Woods to remove IDWS from Azz Izz for reissues. I'd assume he was unexperienced (it was after all the first song he gave to another artist) and later realized that it wasn't the way it worked in the music industry.

.

Then there are the realities of the recording industry:

Prince gave those songs away for one reason above all and that's money, LOTS of money was made that way. In that sense he wasn't in a position to dictate label execs, producers and artists what to do with the songs.

Then there's the need to preserve the cohesiveness of an album. Most of the songs that were rerecorded were rerecorded because the demo just didn't belong among the rest, that's totally obvious when we listen to the demos we have, just try and imagine:

- P's untouched recording of Manic Monday on Different Light. Wouldn't work well.

- P's recording of Baby Go-Go on Female Trouble. Wouldn't work well.

- P's recording of Neon Telephone on Vermillon. Absolute disaster.

- P's recording of If I Love U 2Night on Contribution. Absolute disaster.

- P's recording of Girl O' My Dreams on True Confession. Beyond ridiculous.

- P's recording of 5 Women on Night Calls. Absolute disaster.

- P's recording of Allegience in the context of Allegience. Wouldn't work well.

From the sound of the albums they were on, we can assume it would have been the same with most, if not all the other rerecorded songs.

Just try and sequence the albums by replacing the song by P's demo and u'll see what I mean.

In those conditions I think Prince was just perfectly aware of the impossibility of him forcing any recording on an artist. Even if the artist would have been intimidated the producers would have said stop. There are some cases where the use of the Prince recording is already borderline: Telepathy and Eternity don't work so well alongside the other songs, they just sound a bit too different, much weirder than the rest of the albums

.

As for the fact that no songs were rerecorded in 89 and 90 (the only 2 years it didn't happen between 1985 and 1993) I think speculating it was anything but a coincidence is speculating waaaay beyond any reasonable doubt.

.

I like debating with u BTW, at least we're not arguing about BS like so often on this forum

databank said:

imprimis said:

.

Thank you for your reply. Regarding re-recording, it is my inkling of a feeling that circa 1987-1989, despite the relative upsets of UTCM/Parade/LS, P still likely views himself as a commercial superstar of the absolute highest order (and in 1989, in particular, the general public seems almost overnight to have ranked P 'cool' again, seemingly independent of the Batman project, paving the way to the Nude Tour and D&P to capitalize on this; the SNL '89 performance intro summarizing P as being someone just right for the moment seems fitting here), and as such he would not likely be amenable to having his then-unreleased work fully re-recorded by another artist-- unless that artist were a relatively high profile one, or a protected member of his flock (whether on the PP Label, 'protege', former or current associate, or otherwise). In the case of 'Five Women' and 'With This Tear', I am certain he learned slightly more humility by 1991 or 1992, and that Celine Dion and Joe Cocker should certainly suffice to be deemed relatively 'high profile artists'. For the second response to my last paragraph, I was meaning to say that, if a [relatively unfamiliar] artist could not accept the track almost unconditionally [vocal overdubs and perhaps only small changes], so as to avoid approval requests or tapes being sent back and forth for changes and review, they were not likely going to be granted the permission, even if they expressed interest.

.

[Edited 7/29/15 8:38am]

For one thing we have some factual research and interviews regarding this, there are loads of stories about some artists declining using a Prince composition but none, as far as I know, of Prince refusing a composition to an artist. And every story we have about a song he gave says the artist received the multi-track and was absolutely free to do whatever they wanted with it, or rerecord the song altogether. The only time where Prince refused a song was after release, when he asked Ren Woods to remove IDWS from Azz Izz for reissues. I'd assume he was unexperienced (it was after all the first song he gave to another artist) and later realized that it wasn't the way it worked in the music industry.

.

Then there are the realities of the recording industry:

Prince gave those songs away for one reason above all and that's money, LOTS of money was made that way. In that sense he wasn't in a position to dictate label execs, producers and artists what to do with the songs.

Then there's the need to preserve the cohesiveness of an album. Most of the songs that were rerecorded were rerecorded because the demo just didn't belong among the rest, that's totally obvious when we listen to the demos we have, just try and imagine:

- P's untouched recording of Manic Monday on Different Light. Wouldn't work well.

- P's recording of Baby Go-Go on Female Trouble. Wouldn't work well.

- P's recording of Neon Telephone on Vermillon. Absolute disaster.

- P's recording of If I Love U 2Night on Contribution. Absolute disaster.

- P's recording of Girl O' My Dreams on True Confession. Beyond ridiculous.

- P's recording of 5 Women on Night Calls. Absolute disaster.

- P's recording of Allegience in the context of Allegience. Wouldn't work well.

From the sound of the albums they were on, we can assume it would have been the same with most, if not all the other rerecorded songs.

Just try and sequence the albums by replacing the song by P's demo and u'll see what I mean.

In those conditions I think Prince was just perfectly aware of the impossibility of him forcing any recording on an artist. Even if the artist would have been intimidated the producers would have said stop. There are some cases where the use of the Prince recording is already borderline: Telepathy and Eternity don't work so well alongside the other songs, they just sound a bit too different, much weirder than the rest of the albums

.

As for the fact that no songs were rerecorded in 89 and 90 (the only 2 years it didn't happen between 1985 and 1993) I think speculating it was anything but a coincidence is speculating waaaay beyond any reasonable doubt.

.

I like debating with u BTW, at least we're not arguing about BS like so often on this forum

In perfect fairness, I believe all of the above, save for the last two, on that list technically use, to varying degrees, parts of P's original multitracks, even if the use is limited and buried underneath layers upon layers of others' work. Mica's sounds like it was recorded as more or less the original product, and then overdubbed/given the 'remix treatment' by her own production team later on, to match the styling of the rest of the 'Contribution' album.

.

Much more speculatively, to my ears, is that it might be based on a more polished/reworked version (perhaps ~1990 by P for her eventual use, that is, nothing like the final released version, but a slightly cleaned up/overdubbed version of the 'final' 1987 take we are familiar with from the vinyl mispressing of her single; think of something bringing it to the general production standard of 'Open Book').

.

And 'Girl of My Dreams' likely being based on proper studio take thereof (not the live-musical-esque take questionably attributed to DF), updated varyingly from 1986-1990.

.

[Edited 7/29/15 18:03pm]

This is obviously a different issue--but on the subject of whether Prince has sent out truncated or incomplete tracks to people/collaborators as samples of work, David Henry Hwang mentions a tape of unreleased tracks in his description of the exchanges that led to "Solo" (http://youoffendmeyouoffendmyfamily.com/working-with-prince/)

.

Specifically, he says this:

.

I return to LA and a couple of days later, an envelope shows up. From Paisley Park. With cassette tapes. Of new Prince songs for the show. This is the ultimate bootleg. Wait, it’s not even technically a bootleg. They’re just … unreleased songs. That I’m hearing before the rest of the world. Why? Oh yeah. Because I’m Working With Prince.

Interestingly, all the songs include a middle section that fades out. Then the song comes back in. Oh, I get it! That’s so they can’t be Bootlegged. More Inside Information, Baby!

So, that's a tape, direct from Prince, that's all messed up and incomplete to protect the songs, but still intended to give the general idea of the songs. It doesn't mean anything with regard to any other particular tape, except to suggest that he might have circulated such things from time to time.

imprimis said:

databank said:

For one thing we have some factual research and interviews regarding this, there are loads of stories about some artists declining using a Prince composition but none, as far as I know, of Prince refusing a composition to an artist. And every story we have about a song he gave says the artist received the multi-track and was absolutely free to do whatever they wanted with it, or rerecord the song altogether. The only time where Prince refused a song was after release, when he asked Ren Woods to remove IDWS from Azz Izz for reissues. I'd assume he was unexperienced (it was after all the first song he gave to another artist) and later realized that it wasn't the way it worked in the music industry.

.

Then there are the realities of the recording industry:

Prince gave those songs away for one reason above all and that's money, LOTS of money was made that way. In that sense he wasn't in a position to dictate label execs, producers and artists what to do with the songs.

Then there's the need to preserve the cohesiveness of an album. Most of the songs that were rerecorded were rerecorded because the demo just didn't belong among the rest, that's totally obvious when we listen to the demos we have, just try and imagine:

- P's untouched recording of Manic Monday on Different Light. Wouldn't work well.

- P's recording of Baby Go-Go on Female Trouble. Wouldn't work well.

- P's recording of Neon Telephone on Vermillon. Absolute disaster.

- P's recording of If I Love U 2Night on Contribution. Absolute disaster.

- P's recording of Girl O' My Dreams on True Confession. Beyond ridiculous.

- P's recording of 5 Women on Night Calls. Absolute disaster.

- P's recording of Allegience in the context of Allegience. Wouldn't work well.

From the sound of the albums they were on, we can assume it would have been the same with most, if not all the other rerecorded songs.

Just try and sequence the albums by replacing the song by P's demo and u'll see what I mean.

In those conditions I think Prince was just perfectly aware of the impossibility of him forcing any recording on an artist. Even if the artist would have been intimidated the producers would have said stop. There are some cases where the use of the Prince recording is already borderline: Telepathy and Eternity don't work so well alongside the other songs, they just sound a bit too different, much weirder than the rest of the albums

.

As for the fact that no songs were rerecorded in 89 and 90 (the only 2 years it didn't happen between 1985 and 1993) I think speculating it was anything but a coincidence is speculating waaaay beyond any reasonable doubt.

.

I like debating with u BTW, at least we're not arguing about BS like so often on this forum

In perfect fairness, I believe all of the above, save for the last two, on that list technically use, to varying degrees, parts of P's original multitracks, even if the use is limited and buried underneath layers upon layers of others' work. Mica's sounds like it was recorded as more or less the original product, and then overdubbed/given the 'remix treatment' by her own production team later on, to match the styling of the rest of the 'Contribution' album.

.

Much more speculatively, to my ears, is that it might be based on a more polished/reworked version (perhaps ~1990 by P for her eventual use, that is, nothing like the final released version, but a slightly cleaned up/overdubbed version of the 'final' 1987 take we are familiar with from the vinyl mispressing of her single; think of something bringing it to the general production standard of 'Open Book').

.

And 'Girl of My Dreams' likely being based on proper studio take thereof (not the live-musical-esque take questionably attributed to DF), updated varyingly from 1986-1990.

.

[Edited 7/29/15 18:03pm]

I would say the irreconciliable difference between us is that you allow your mind to speculate way beyond what factual data establishes or suggests, a mental exercise I strictly forgive myself because the exact same pattern of thoughts also leads to conspirationism as well as political and religious fanatism and all sorts of dangerous patterns of thoughts.

.

I see no reason whatsoever to assume any of those songs contain any elements from p's original tapes. Per Nilsen's research refutes that and there is no contradictory information available that supports the notion, and it's not even like some of those songs contained very distinctive, typical Prince production sounds. I see no reason to assume Levi wouldn't have rerecorded GOMD entirely for example, as I can't hear any distinctive 1999 era sounds in it that may come from the 82 recording.

.

Regarding If I Love U 2Night there is an obvious logical contradiction in your reasoning. Since you are aware of the existence of the single with Prince's version, you acknowledge the fact that Mica Paris and her label were in possession of this track, so basically what you are suggesting is that Prince would have sent her BOTH his 1987 rework and an updated version? I fail to see why he'd do that, to my knowledge there is no evidence of P ever sending 2 versions of a song to an artist for them to pick one. Besides, Mica's version of IILU2N has exactly the same sound as the rest of the record, it was obviously arranged, produced and recorded by the same people.

.

In the end it might happen that ONE of your intuitions is revealed to be true, I ain't sayin', it's happened before with other orgers making wild guesses, but there are too many speculations in too many of your posts for all of them to possibly be true. However as I said your knowledge of facts and some other very insightful analysis of known facts make me enjoy reading most of your post and debate with you

EddieC said:

This is obviously a different issue--but on the subject of whether Prince has sent out truncated or incomplete tracks to people/collaborators as samples of work, David Henry Hwang mentions a tape of unreleased tracks in his description of the exchanges that led to "Solo" (http://youoffendmeyouoffendmyfamily.com/working-with-prince/)

.

Specifically, he says this:

.

I return to LA and a couple of days later, an envelope shows up. From Paisley Park. With cassette tapes. Of new Prince songs for the show. This is the ultimate bootleg. Wait, it’s not even technically a bootleg. They’re just … unreleased songs. That I’m hearing before the rest of the world. Why? Oh yeah. Because I’m Working With Prince.

Interestingly, all the songs include a middle section that fades out. Then the song comes back in. Oh, I get it! That’s so they can’t be Bootlegged. More Inside Information, Baby!

So, that's a tape, direct from Prince, that's all messed up and incomplete to protect the songs, but still intended to give the general idea of the songs. It doesn't mean anything with regard to any other particular tape, except to suggest that he might have circulated such things from time to time.

I remember reading this, thx for posting it here

databank said:

imprimis said:

In perfect fairness, I believe all of the above, save for the last two, on that list technically use, to varying degrees, parts of P's original multitracks, even if the use is limited and buried underneath layers upon layers of others' work. Mica's sounds like it was recorded as more or less the original product, and then overdubbed/given the 'remix treatment' by her own production team later on, to match the styling of the rest of the 'Contribution' album.

.

Much more speculatively, to my ears, is that it might be based on a more polished/reworked version (perhaps ~1990 by P for her eventual use, that is, nothing like the final released version, but a slightly cleaned up/overdubbed version of the 'final' 1987 take we are familiar with from the vinyl mispressing of her single; think of something bringing it to the general production standard of 'Open Book').

.

And 'Girl of My Dreams' likely being based on proper studio take thereof (not the live-musical-esque take questionably attributed to DF), updated varyingly from 1986-1990.

.

[Edited 7/29/15 18:03pm]

I would say the irreconciliable difference between us is that you allow your mind to speculate way beyond what factual data establishes or suggests, a mental exercise I strictly forgive myself because the exact same pattern of thoughts also leads to conspirationism as well as political and religious fanatism and all sorts of dangerous patterns of thoughts.

.

I see no reason whatsoever to assume any of those songs contain any elements from p's original tapes. Per Nilsen's research refutes that and there is no contradictory information available that supports the notion, and it's not even like some of those songs contained very distinctive, typical Prince production sounds. I see no reason to assume Levi wouldn't have rerecorded GOMD entirely for example, as I can't hear any distinctive 1999 era sounds in it that may come from the 82 recording.

.

Regarding If I Love U 2Night there is an obvious logical contradiction in your reasoning. Since you are aware of the existence of the single with Prince's version, you acknowledge the fact that Mica Paris and her label were in possession of this track, so basically what you are suggesting is that Prince would have sent her BOTH his 1987 rework and an updated version? I fail to see why he'd do that, to my knowledge there is no evidence of P ever sending 2 versions of a song to an artist for them to pick one. Besides, Mica's version of IILU2N has exactly the same sound as the rest of the record, it was obviously arranged, produced and recorded by the same people.

.

In the end it might happen that ONE of your intuitions is revealed to be true, I ain't sayin', it's happened before with other orgers making wild guesses, but there are too many speculations in too many of your posts for all of them to possibly be true. However as I said your knowledge of facts and some other very insightful analysis of known facts make me enjoy reading most of your post and debate with you

.

So, for instance, Wendy and Lisa's backing vocals and Wendy's "woah-oh-oh's" on Three O'Clock's 'Neon Telephone' (they came back onto the scene just to help out this relatively nameless outfit?), and containing some of the exact same 'kaleidoscopic' synth parts (among others), and, very identifiably, almost the same ending as the more recently leaked version of P's 'Neon Telephone', or Roy Bennet's interview about recognizing Brenda's vocal work still in the Bangles' version of 'Manic Monday', are not evidence of an original multitrack being used? (Three O'Clock's version here: https://www.youtube.com/w...sIWjI499A)

.

Three O'Clock's version of 'Neon Telephone' isn't hugely removed from P's later versions of it, at all. Princevault, that vaunted and unerring source of truth, on the other hand, curiously tells us that the track was merely offered for consideration, and re-recorded "with no Prince input". While I cannot be certain as to specifically how they meant that, I suspect it is congruent with how they use that expression on their other articles, to mean neither Prince nor musicians under Prince's direction appear on the eventual recording. Their inability to recognize the obvious raises doubts as to their status as an authority to cite when discussing P's discography. Since the editors at Princevault are purported to have a more intimate interaction with the private dealings and access to materials that are/were not at all times available to the average collector/researcher, one would think they would demonstrate greater conviction in ferreting out the finer details of these things.

.

GOMD sounds quite 1986 to me, ala 'It Ain't Over ('Til The Fat Lady Sings)', or parts of the 'Soul Psychedelicide' soundcheck rehearsal/jam, or some of the Madhouse 8 work, behind some ~1990 era updating. I am not certain that I can accept current explanations for this song, and what versions of it might exist, as orthodoxy. I've read that this song was flagged at one point for possible use on the album that became Eric Leeds' 'Times Squared', but I wouldn't say that should diminish my belief that the recording has origins in 1986. If there is a 1982 version of the song, I would imagine that the relationship between it and any later version would be akin to the 1981/1982 version of 'Baby, I'm a Star' and the PR album version (and probably nowhere near as faithful as that; the musical relationship between WDC and 'Susannah's Pajamas' is probably a better point of comparison). A 1982 version of the song I would expect to be rockabilly, like 'Horny Toad' or 'No Call U', or perhaps more piano-driven and old-fashioned like 'Broken'. The production in the T.C. Ellis release doesn't seem particularly "Levi Seacer, Jr." to me (The Flash, 'Good Man' or 'Your Love is So Hard' are probably better examples of Levi's sensibilities). Even though he may have been assigned to help complete the track, I don't believe it was entirely re-recorded under his direction. My belief right now is that there is a 1986 (or even late 1985) jazzstrumentalish (but still vocal) recording of the song, perhaps "based on" but not reworked from any earlier version, and different from the 1986 'live' musical-style take, that T.C. Ellis' version *partially* borrows the multitrack from. To be entirely frank, however, GOMD isn't much of a song, in any of its currently known versions, to get too worked up over.

.

(In T.C. Ellis' own words: 'Really, I like all the songs, they just weren't produced in the manner that I would have liked—except for “Girl o' my Dreams” and “Bambi (Rap).” Those were Prince's songs and they were produced the way they should have been, because, he was involved with it. He did it and he knew what he was trying to do. I was really the “voice.”')

.

MP's IILU2N version, sounds [to me] like it was recorded (laid down) in a more conventional format, closer to the original arrangement (even if that version was itself fully re-recorded by other musicians), and then later further parts added and "remixed" (remix in the Shep Pettibone sense of the term) to bring it up to the feel and styling of the tracks on the rest of the album. While it doesn't prove or disprove anything, some of the layered backing vocals are so specifically in line with P's arrangement, to the point of being at the level of Paul Peterson's being forced to do endless takes to recreate P's vocals on 'The Family' album. That seems an odd decision if, from the very outset, P's gratuity of a track was simply something to inspect and liberally base one's own version of it on. And that "remix" style of things certainly isn't unique to Mica Paris, it was extraordinarily popular 1988-1991, if you are suggesting that I am conflating MP's own musical shibboleths with that faddish musical practice. I am familiar enough with her body of work. My ruminations on whether P updated it further between 1987-1990 before giving it to another recording artist were given the caveat of "speculative" from the beginning, which should have signalled its being a less-serious diversion from the rest of the discussion. I am not going to comment on a logical contradiction of that speculation vs the appearance of the 1987 take on the early 12" single release; that any version of P's own was pressed to the record doesn't make much sense, and no explanation from an official source has been offered.

.

NH's 'Baby Go-Go', listening to just a brief excerpt at ~0:12-0:21 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxd1s7SVvFE), to offer as *remotely possible* counterevidence, sounds suspiciously like Eric Leeds (calls to mind the segue between 'The Ball' and JIR), different to Arno Hecht's work, and the synth organ at that same spot distinctively Princely (compared to the more serviceable but more "generic" late-80s keys dotting most of the track). I am not disputing her own musicians "make or break" her version of the song. But at the same time, although clearly I wouldn't be suggesting any later version would sound anything in total like Nona's version, is there any reason we should necessarily assume P's 1986 take is, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the last time he worked on it? Some parts of NH's version sound as though she is mimicking (parrotting?) P in some proto-Lovesexy way (and the proto-LS/LS-era sound is a rather unique mark on the musical landscape). Could he have updated it further ~early 1987, and NH is 'basing' her version partially on this, even assuming there is not a single track held over from P's tapes?

.

I am not meaning to be arrogant, or to give the impression that what I am posting should be construed as the equivalent of fact; I am only exploring (hypothesizing) in the interest of encouraging more research into the materials under scrutiny. Per Nilsen, I believe, has abused his status as an authority in this 'field', or, at least, been dead wrong a number of times. I don't believe we have all the facts, or fact at all in some cases, on certain much-revisited eras in Prince's musical development. Saying 'that's all we have right now', and taking that as a final token of faith, simply isn't good enough.

.

As another aside, wasn't the first (non-"full length") BGG circulating a partially faked version made by someone with apparent access to the separate instrumental tracks (like "Make Your Mama Happy", repeating the first part of it with its instrumental).

.

[Edited 7/30/15 11:39am]

imprimis said:

databank said:

I would say the irreconciliable difference between us is that you allow your mind to speculate way beyond what factual data establishes or suggests, a mental exercise I strictly forgive myself because the exact same pattern of thoughts also leads to conspirationism as well as political and religious fanatism and all sorts of dangerous patterns of thoughts.

.

I see no reason whatsoever to assume any of those songs contain any elements from p's original tapes. Per Nilsen's research refutes that and there is no contradictory information available that supports the notion, and it's not even like some of those songs contained very distinctive, typical Prince production sounds. I see no reason to assume Levi wouldn't have rerecorded GOMD entirely for example, as I can't hear any distinctive 1999 era sounds in it that may come from the 82 recording.

.

Regarding If I Love U 2Night there is an obvious logical contradiction in your reasoning. Since you are aware of the existence of the single with Prince's version, you acknowledge the fact that Mica Paris and her label were in possession of this track, so basically what you are suggesting is that Prince would have sent her BOTH his 1987 rework and an updated version? I fail to see why he'd do that, to my knowledge there is no evidence of P ever sending 2 versions of a song to an artist for them to pick one. Besides, Mica's version of IILU2N has exactly the same sound as the rest of the record, it was obviously arranged, produced and recorded by the same people.

.

In the end it might happen that ONE of your intuitions is revealed to be true, I ain't sayin', it's happened before with other orgers making wild guesses, but there are too many speculations in too many of your posts for all of them to possibly be true. However as I said your knowledge of facts and some other very insightful analysis of known facts make me enjoy reading most of your post and debate with you

.

So, for instance, Wendy and Lisa's backing vocals and Wendy's "woah-oh-oh's" on Three O'Clock's 'Neon Telephone' (they came back onto the scene just to help out this relatively nameless outfit?), I was aware of their vocals having been used, I should have mentioned it for the sake of clarity. and containing some of the exact same 'kaleidoscopic' synth parts (among others), and, very identifiably, almost the same ending as the more recently leaked version of P's 'Neon Telephone' The one from Perfect Unreleased or has there been another one since? Comparing that one at laest to the TOC version I can't find anything that's in both, somethings have been replayed in a relatively similar manner but direct sounds, no. I mighta missed something, though. or Roy Bennet's interview about recognizing Brenda's vocal work still in the Bangles' version of 'Manic Monday', are not evidence of an original multitrack being used? There is no doubt about the multitrack being used, it's an acknowledged fact, I should have said that too sorry, I was just making a point that the song couldn't have been used as such and it went through a major reworking (Three O'Clock's version here: https://www.youtube.com/w...sIWjI499A) I have all that stuff, u know

.

Three O'Clock's version of 'Neon Telephone' isn't hugely removed from P's later versions of it, at all. Not dramatically but nevertheless the production is quite different, I couldn't see the original in the middle of the rest of the album, at all, it would have sounded too different. Princevault, that vaunted and unerring source of truth, on the other hand, curiously tells us that the track was merely offered for consideration, and re-recorded "with no Prince input". While I cannot be certain as to specifically how they meant that, I suspect it is congruent with how they use that expression on their other articles, to mean neither Prince nor musicians under Prince's direction appear on the eventual recording. Their inability to recognize the obvious raises doubts as to their status as an authority to cite when discussing P's discography. Since the editors at Princevault are purported to have a more intimate interaction with the private dealings and access to materials that are/were not at all times available to the average collector/researcher, one would think they would demonstrate greater conviction in ferreting out the finer details of these things. I do not and will never condone someone "hearing" something as "the obvious". I've read people here convinced that they were "hearing" Prince in anything from Pharrel songs to whatever else. I don't wanna start a row or anything but I have to tell you, in a friendly manner, that think you are showing great disrespect for people who are doing a lot of hard work, for free. They commit mistakes but I know for a fact (both from interacting with some of them and from third parties who have interacted with them) that they are commited and that they just don't "make" data. They put what research has revealed, they correct it when new research reveals new data, but they can't possibly put Prince as a musician just because they believe they "hear" him or the whole site would soon becaome a joke. There is no such thing as "the obvious". There is what we know or believe to know and what we don't know. But as a discographer myself I am a bit shocked by how you speak of them, I'm doing more or less what they're doing, it's a lot of hard work, starting with crosschecking data, and we don't get a paycheck for doing it, basically we're doing it for YOU and for FREE, so please show a little gratitude

.

GOMD sounds quite 1986 to me, ala 'It Ain't Over ('Til The Fat Lady Sings)', or parts of the 'Soul Psychedelicide' soundcheck rehearsal/jam, or some of the Madhouse 8 work, behind some ~1990 era updating. I am not certain that I can accept current explanations for this song, and what versions of it might exist, as orthodoxy. I've read that this song was flagged at one point for possible use on the album that became Eric Leeds' 'Times Squared', but I wouldn't say that should diminish my belief that the recording has origins in 1986. If there is a 1982 version of the song, I would imagine that the relationship between it and any later version would be akin to the 1981/1982 version of 'Baby, I'm a Star' and the PR album version (and probably nowhere near as faithful as that; the musical relationship between WDC and 'Susannah's Pajamas' is probably a better point of comparison). A 1982 version of the song I would expect to be rockabilly, like 'Horny Toad' or 'No Call U', or perhaps more piano-driven and old-fashioned like 'Broken'. The production in the T.C. Ellis release doesn't seem particularly "Levi Seacer, Jr." to me (The Flash, 'Good Man' or 'Your Love is So Hard' are probably better examples of Levi's sensibilities). Even though he may have been assigned to help complete the track, I don't believe it was entirely re-recorded under his direction. My belief right now is that there is a 1986 (or even late 1985) jazzstrumentalish (but still vocal) recording of the song, perhaps "based on" but not reworked from any earlier version, and different from the 1986 'live' musical-style take, that T.C. Ellis' version *partially* borrows the multitrack from. To be entirely frank, however, GOMD isn't much of a song, in any of its currently known versions, to get too worked up over.

.

(In T.C. Ellis' own words: 'Really, I like all the songs, they just weren't produced in the manner that I would have liked—except for “Girl o' my Dreams” and “Bambi (Rap).” Those were Prince's songs and they were produced the way they should have been, because, he was involved with it. He did it and he knew what he was trying to do. I was really the “voice.”') I read this at the time and it puzzled me too, I wish Dye had asked him more details. It's possible though that TC wasn't present when the instrumental tracks were recorded and assumed that P was behind them, but I admit this is disturbing.

.

MP's IILU2N version, sounds [to me] like it was recorded (laid down) in a more conventional format, closer to the original arrangement (even if that version was itself fully re-recorded by other musicians), and then later further parts added and "remixed" (remix in the Shep Pettibone sense of the term) to bring it up to the feel and styling of the tracks on the rest of the album. While it doesn't prove or disprove anything, some of the layered backing vocals are so specifically in line with P's arrangement, to the point of being at the level of Paul Peterson's being forced to do endless takes to recreate P's vocals on 'The Family' album. That seems an odd decision if, from the very outset, P's gratuity of a track was simply something to inspect and liberally base one's own version of it on. And that "remix" style of things certainly isn't unique to Mica Paris, it was extraordinarily popular 1988-1991, if you are suggesting that I am conflating MP's own musical shibboleths with that faddish musical practice. I am familiar enough with her body of work. My ruminations on whether P updated it further between 1987-1990 before giving it to another recording artist were given the caveat of "speculative" from the beginning, which should have signalled its being a less-serious diversion from the rest of the discussion. I am not going to comment on a logical contradiction of that speculation vs the appearance of the 1987 take on the early 12" single release; that any version of P's own was pressed to the record doesn't make much sense, and no explanation from an official source has been offered. The "official" release of P's version is definitely one of the biggest mysteries of his career and I really hope one day we get to know what happened. I see where you're coming from about the whole updated version thing, I'm not too convinced but OK, u made a valid point.

.

NH's 'Baby Go-Go', listening to just a brief excerpt at ~0:12-0:21 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxd1s7SVvFE), to offer as *remotely possible* counterevidence, sounds suspiciously like Eric Leeds (calls to mind the segue between 'The Ball' and JIR), different to Arno Hecht's work, and the synth organ at that same spot distinctively Princely (compared to the more serviceable but more "generic" late-80s keys dotting most of the track). I am not disputing her own musicians "make or break" her version of the song. But at the same time, although clearly I wouldn't be suggesting any later version would sound anything in total like Nona's version, is there any reason we should necessarily assume P's 1986 take is, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the last time he worked on it? Some parts of NH's version sound as though she is mimicking (parrotting?) P in some proto-Lovesexy way (and the proto-LS/LS-era sound is a rather unique mark on the musical landscape). Could he have updated it further ~early 1987, and NH is 'basing' her version partially on this, even assuming there is not a single track held over from P's tapes? I've also wondered if it was possible that the version we have in rehearsals with the horns was in fact based on an arrangement sent to Nona or if P, oppositely, did it based on Nona's version (he was reportedly very happy with it). I just assumed that since Eric Leeds was interviewed by Nilsen and seemed to keep good diaries of his recording sessions it wasn't the case because it seemed odd that this could have been overlooked. However Leeds' testimony (in an interview) regarding the genesis of The Sex Of It doesn't add up with Pvault's/Nilsen's informations, so IDK, you may be right after all but once again we'd rather ask people in the know that speculate in vain.

.

I am not meaning to be arrogant, or to give the impression that what I am posting should be construed as the equivalent of fact; I am only exploring (hypothesizing) in the interest of encouraging more research into the materials under scrutiny. Per Nilsen, I believe, has abused his status as an authority in this 'field', or, at least, been dead wrong a number of times. I don't believe we have all the facts, or fact at all in some cases, on certain much-revisited eras in Prince's musical development. Saying 'that's all we have right now', and taking that as a final token of faith, simply isn't good enough.

I never thought of u as arrogant, I respect your dedication and I understand your approach, it's just not mine.

I don't think Nilsen has "abused" anything, I don't recall himself ever going on an ego-trip. If anyone glorified him and his friends it's us fans but how not to do that when we ow SO MUCH to those people. Just imagine how little we'd know if not for their effort. We would be virtually ignorant of almost everything we currently know aboiut P's recording sessions.

There are definitely things to be revealed: for example I know from a reliable inner source that Prince was present during the Ricky Peterson-produced session of Mavis' The Undertaker (something Nilsen and Pvault haven't found out yet): he didn't play on it but it seems he definitely supervised the full band session anbd possibly even the arrangements. So yes, there are things that are still to be revealed (I know a few others that haven't been made public yet, I definitely need to drop a mail to Pvault).

As for "encouraging" more research, the problem is who's gonna do it? However there's Madhouseman, who has been doing extensive research for years alongisde Nilsen and others and who hopes to release a first book about just recording sessions from 83-84 (if we eventually get a book for every 2 years that's gonna be a hell of an encyclopedia), and who has revealed in arecent thread that indeed some info he has found contradicts previously "established" research (or, as you say, makes Nilsen "dead wrong"). If we're lucky enough to see Madhouseman being alloowed to cover p's whole career, I think most of the questions we're asking here will be answered and that'd be great. In the meantime let's keep asking ex-Prince collaborators when given the opportunity, like u did with W&L and I did with my aforementioned source.

.

As another aside, wasn't the first (non-"full length") BGG circulating a partially faked version made by someone with apparent access to the separate instrumental tracks (like "Make Your Mama Happy", repeating the first part of it with its instrumental). Was it? It's the first time I hear about that and I have no idea but hell weirder things have happened in the world of bootlegs. What's your source?

.

[Edited 7/30/15 11:39am]

wait wait wait, hold up, so prince's version of If I Love U 2Nite was actually released,

somewhat official, although by mistake - is that right?

is it circulating? i mean, is it one of those takes that we have? i can't recall right now
how many versions of this songs i have or from what year.

and is it the full version with vocals, or an instrumental version?

never heard about this before until now

..

[Edited 7/31/15 10:47am]

IstenSzek said:

wait wait wait, hold up, so prince's version of If I Love U 2Nite was actually released,

somewhat official, although by mistake - is that right?

It was released on a fairly rare promo single (vinyl) at some point in 1991, yes. Whether this was an "accident" or intentional, whether the label execs and/or Mica herself were aware of it, all this is entirely unknown. We can safely assume that this was unauthorized by WB and likely by Prince, too, but the circumstances behind that incident remain shrouded in mystery. Fact is, however, that this makes P's rendition of the song a song that's been officially released on a promo.

is it circulating? i mean, is it one of those takes that we have? i can't recall right now
how many versions of this songs i have or from what year.

I've asked that same question here a few years back and was told that it's the fairly good sounding 4:10 (or 4:15 depending on your bootleg) version that you certainly have.

and is it the full version with vocals, or an instrumental version?

It is, of course, the full version with vocals, as explained above.

never heard about this before until now
Funnily enough I think I knew about it from fellow fans even before the internet days, but it took me years to figure out what version it was for sure.
..

[Edited 7/31/15 10:47am]

databank said:

IstenSzek said:

wait wait wait, hold up, so prince's version of If I Love U 2Nite was actually released,

somewhat official, although by mistake - is that right?

It was released on a fairly rare promo single (vinyl) at some point in 1991, yes. Whether this was an "accident" or intentional, whether the label execs and/or Mica herself were aware of it, all this is entirely unknown. We can safely assume that this was unauthorized by WB and likely by Prince, too, but the circumstances behind that incident remain shrouded in mystery. Fact is, however, that this makes P's rendition of the song a song that's been officially released on a promo.

is it circulating? i mean, is it one of those takes that we have? i can't recall right now
how many versions of this songs i have or from what year.

I've asked that same question here a few years back and was told that it's the fairly good sounding 4:10 (or 4:15 depending on your bootleg) version that you certainly have.

and is it the full version with vocals, or an instrumental version?

It is, of course, the full version with vocals, as explained above.

never heard about this before until now
Funnily enough I think I knew about it from fellow fans even before the internet days, but it took me years to figure out what version it was for sure.
..

[Edited 7/31/15 10:47am]

thank you i continue to be surprised by the depth of people's knowledge

on this site. well some people anyway great information (also on the rest of this
thread).

time to dust off the old bootleg collection this weekend.

IstenSzek said:

databank said:

thank you i continue to be surprised by the depth of people's knowledge

on this site. well some people anyway great information (also on the rest of this
thread).

time to dust off the old bootleg collection this weekend.

Anytime

My knowledge only comes from years reading books and articles and innerviews and posts on the org and being good at memorizing what I'm interested in. U'll probably know as much as I do over time

.

Has it actually been shown that the alternate side of the promo single contained exactly P's "more polished" 1987 take (along with perhaps the other official mixes for MP's version)? Or is this just the consensus presumption based on rumor?

.

I am just wondering whether the promo record might possibly contain something entirely different from that version (that we mere mortals currently lack access to), or whether it might be a "cover story" for some form of short-lived bootlegged or "DJ" vinyl release (or just altogether greatly misremembered).

.

I seem to recall the "more polished" 1987 take as circulating (along with the 1987 early demo of the same, not to be confused with The Rebels session one) in the tape trading community as early as 1989, if the claim is that bootleggers/traders didn't have that version until after MP's "erroneously pressed" single was released, or aired on radio, in 1991. My memory could be faulty here, however.

.

.

[Edited 7/31/15 16:50pm]

imprimis said:

.

Has it actually been shown that the alternate side of the promo single contained exactly P's "more polished" 1987 take (along with perhaps the other official mixes for MP's version)? Or is this just the consensus presumption based on rumor?

.

I am just wondering whether the promo record might possibly contain something entirely different from that version (that we mere mortals currently lack access to), or whether it might be a "cover story" for some form of short-lived bootlegged or "DJ" vinyl release (or just altogether greatly misremembered).

.

I seem to recall the "more polished" 1987 take as circulating (along with the 1987 early demo of the same, not to be confused with The Rebels session one) in the tape trading community as early as 1989, if the claim is that bootleggers/traders didn't have that version until after MP's "erroneously pressed" single was released, or aired on radio, in 1991. My memory could be faulty here, however.

.

.

[Edited 7/31/15 16:50pm]

I can't say for sure really but it was for sale on ebay once (http://prince.org/msg/9/167283?pr). The legitimacy of it has never been disputed as far as I could read. The post linked says it was a mispressing, later recalled. However I fail to understand how such a mistake could happen by accident. I wonder if someone here has it, a picture would be nice. It's possible and even likely that it leaked before that anyway, but IDK what version: at this time I don't remember hearing anything that sounded as good as the version I now have, all the outtakes boots I bought prior to 1994 sounded like absolute shit, and there's another version circulating that sounds like shit.

It's like this reported release of the Undertaker video in 1993 that no one has ever seen nor taken a picture of, it's legitimate to doubt its existence but IDK, contrarely to that Undertaker vid that no one ever acknowledged exist outside of the Vault book, the IILU2N "mispressing" has been acknowledged to be genuine by more people overthe years.