I was thinking the other night about Prince, his latest output and whether or not he still had the ability to drop that album that sets us all back on our ass. For the longest time I thought he could, but now I am doubtful given the following self-imposed constraints that I feel negatively effect his music.

DISCLAIMER: Just my opinions/thoughts based on observations of a long time fan.

1) JW: I love and respect that Prince is on a spiritual journey, however running every song and lyric through the JW approval filter has to impose limitations to the creative process. In stark contrast to the younger Prince the surfacing of what could be interpreted as judgement in his post JW works has, for me, a chilling, alienating effect on his music. Granted lately that seems to have been toned down.

2) Fixation with cash and control: While I understand that as an african american artist Prince is sensitive to insuring he gets paid, for some time now he seems to be obsessed with squeezing every single, dime out of his work. Extraordinarily cheap packaging completely unworthy of his art, badly shot live video releases and the endless Internet policing/lawyering, IMHO creates tons of negative, distracting energy which can interfere with the creative process

3) Ego, Vanity and Aging: Pure speculation as I have never met the man, but Prince has to be one of the vainest men on earth right?. He is now facing the spectre of heading into his 60's and while the brother looks incredible for his age, he can't keep looking 25 forever. No matter how much photoshop you use, and how strict your no photo policy is, every day he wakes up he is going to see himself getting older which must weigh on him, even subconciously, given his obsession with beauty. Additionally we all know that P's ego probably does not allow for anyone to help filter and question the quality of his work.

4) Relevance: Prince has been a rock star for the vast majority of his life. He lives in a different universe from the masses and therefore may increasingly have a difficult time connecting with the glut of younger (20-40) music consumers. It seems part of him still wants to be a pop star whose music gets played on the radio and not fade away into obscurity as a nostalgia act with an increasingly shrinking, aging, hardcore fan base. This desire to create relevant, mass appeal music could be yet another restrictive box as he second guesses himself and attempts to write music for people he has no hope of having anything in common with.

Without a doubt Prince is at the very top of his game as a musician, especially on guitar. However the exhilerating "I don't give an F" attitude that permeated so much of his best earlier work is likely gone and replaced with the baggage, self-doubt and even crotchiness that comes with getting older combined with the distractions mentioned above.

All that aside, every album still brings big smiles to my face, and I would never miss him when he comes to town. At this point in his career perhaps that is good enough.

#1 I agree with.

#2. ? How does charing $11.99 for a 3 disk set (Lotus Flower) indicate squeezing every dime?

How does have some of the lowest concerts prices around indicate such?

#4. If Prince wanted what u claim, wouldn't he allow his work on Youtube and the like?

I really believe that the single biggest issue with Prince music in 2015 is his JW filter. In some ways it has choked the life out of his work. I still enjoy his output........but I can feel the JW slant in almost every track.

Graycap23 said:

#1 I agree with.

#2. ? How does charing $11.99 for a 3 disk set (Lotus Flower) indicate squeezing every dime?

How does have some of the lowest concerts prices around indicate such?

#4. If Prince wanted what u claim, wouldn't he allow his work on Youtube and the like?

I really believe that the single biggest issue with Prince music in 2015 is his JW filter. In some ways it has choked the life out of his work. I still enjoy his output........but I can feel the JW slant in almost every track.

#2 I think Prince mentioned he made more money on that deal than most of his biggest albuyms as there was no record company in the middle. There are many examples of Prince cutting corners (LotusFlower Tshirts, Artwork on just about everything) and obsessing on the maximization of profits. Youtube is all about money, the Internet policing is all about money, suing fansites is all about money.

#4. Yes, but his obsession with #2 precludes him from putting his music out there to the masses if he has to share revenue.

It's all about #1.

Prince is best as a leader, not a follower. He was way more insightful, and coherent earlier on in his career when he was unfettered by guilt.

Religion has always permeated his music, but his intellect was able to masterfully infuse it without it becoming the stifling bummer it is now.

If the new song is a christian rock thing as some are saying, I think it will be a sad sad day.

2funkE said:

Graycap23 said:

#1 I agree with.

#2. ? How does charing $11.99 for a 3 disk set (Lotus Flower) indicate squeezing every dime?

How does have some of the lowest concerts prices around indicate such?

#4. If Prince wanted what u claim, wouldn't he allow his work on Youtube and the like?

I really believe that the single biggest issue with Prince music in 2015 is his JW filter. In some ways it has choked the life out of his work. I still enjoy his output........but I can feel the JW slant in almost every track.

#2 I think Prince mentioned he made more money on that deal than most of his biggest albuyms as there was no record company in the middle. There are many examples of Prince cutting corners (LotusFlower Tshirts, Artwork on just about everything) and obsessing on the maximization of profits. Youtube is all about money, the Internet policing is all about money, suing fansites is all about money.

#4. Yes, but his obsession with #2 precludes him from putting his music out there to the masses if he has to share revenue.

Prince could have charged more than $11.99 for a 3 disk set if what u say is true. As for the rest, what business man do u know that doesn't want 2 maximize profits?

Graycap23 said:

2funkE said:

#2 I think Prince mentioned he made more money on that deal than most of his biggest albuyms as there was no record company in the middle. There are many examples of Prince cutting corners (LotusFlower Tshirts, Artwork on just about everything) and obsessing on the maximization of profits. Youtube is all about money, the Internet policing is all about money, suing fansites is all about money.

#4. Yes, but his obsession with #2 precludes him from putting his music out there to the masses if he has to share revenue.

Prince could have charged more than $11.99 for a 3 disk set if what u say is true. As for the rest, what business man do u know that doesn't want 2 maximize profits?

U2, Pearl Jam, Rolling Stones, Bruce Springsteen provide all sorts of access to their fan base for free that they could charge for and there is none of the lawyering up because you have a fansite with 50 views per month. Making a healthy profit is one thing, alienating your fan base to squeeze every last drop out is counter productive in the long term from a business sense. If Prince provided an ongoing alternative to Youtube where his art could be viewed to his financial benefit then great. However removing it completely from the public arena seems to be bad business to me. My guess is there is no perfect solution yet for "princemusic.com" that insures zero sharing so he would rather have nothing than put it out there and risk losing a % of revenue.

2funkE said:

4) Relevance: Prince has been a rock star for the vast majority of his life. He lives in a different universe from the masses and therefore may increasingly have a difficult time connecting with the glut of younger (20-40) music consumers. It seems part of him still wants to be a pop star whose music gets played on the radio and not fade away into obscurity as a nostalgia act with an increasingly shrinking, aging, hardcore fan base. This desire to create relevant, mass appeal music could be yet another restrictive box as he second guesses himself and attempts to write music for people he has no hope of having anything in common with.

Agreed!

I almost agree with your post 2funkE but on this one I have to slightly disagree. In my eyes I dont find disharmony with anything in Prince's world. I don't know why everyone is always worried about his supposed obsession with financial domination and his musical decline because of his spiritual journey or his paranoia of getting older?

How does anyone put all of these opinion together? Purely conjecture in my eyes.

#1 most people become more spiritual as they get older. It comes from experience and lessons learned. So yeah he's not gonna be the super hungry creative force that fueled him in the early 80's. So what? People around here act as he is declining musically because of his faith. I just don't see it that way. I saw him in concert dec 2013 and he was as funky as ever. It wasn't preaching or watered down funk. It was on point. And so what if his music has mellowed out a little. It's still funky to my ears. Let him experiment with 3EG all he wants. He gave us UKnow and the Gold Standared and Time and FunknRoll. Let him broaden his horizons. I don't mind at all.

#2 I admire Prince's sense of financial control. So many people here act as if he's looking for change in his couch or something. How many musicians retire broke and in debt? Plenty. Not our boy P. Plus he has what most musicians lack for the long term, a real identity as a musician. He lives and breathes music. He records constantly and has studied the music business for a long time. So he wants to be in control of his artistic output and the money it generates. So what? I would be too if I was him. I dont think it's obsessive at all? I think it's the wave of the future for recording artists, especially those who are very sucessful.

#3 I agree that your statement about his ego is pure speculation. Yes he likes nice thing and attractive things. Me too. I tend to have around attractive people myself. I do have a few uglies around too btw. But as much as prince is supposed to be obsessed with vanity he also has a long track record of working with people that just have talent. Like Tevin Campbell or Chaka Kahn or Rosie Gaines or Mavis Staples and of course Larry Graham who tips the ugly meter in my eyes. Yes he growing older and he is making every attempt to compensate for that. Again so what? I meet tons of people just like him dong the exact same thing, woman and men alike. This point is very moot to me.

#4 Who is more relevant than Prince today. He is rock royalty with a huge crown. Everyone in the music business knows this. He is household name and has 40+ years to back him up. In my eyes he is above the charts. Been there done that. Would he like it if he had a huge hit? Sure. But is he chasing it? Not from the way I see it. I seem him as being very comfortable right where he is. He is doing things as he wants to and how he wants to. He has mastered his craft from every angle and he knows it and anyone that is smart knows it too! So no I don't share your view on this. He is in a very happy place as far I can tell.

In the end I love the music he is making and I consider it a gift that he shares it with us. I love seeing him in concert. And I am so happy he has reached this place in his career. I am just happy to say that his music is still 2funkE 2 me!

..when you start with the "real music by real musicians" nonsense, you know he has already straightjacked himself into a tight corner. Art is art, it doesnt matter if it's by a kid with a computer or someone with a banjo. Add religious dogma on top of that, and you can literally feel him asphixiating himself on AOC. He is not just out of new ideas, he has taken a lot of them off the table and he is repeating himself in a heavily watered down less dynamic, less original way. He has created this bubble for himself where the stale stays in, and fresh air cannot.

The great thing is we still have all of his genius music from a more passionate more creative younger time to enjoy.

vinaysfunk said:

I almost agree with your post 2funkE but on this one I have to slightly disagree. In my eyes I dont find disharmony with anything in Prince's world. I don't know why everyone is always worried about his supposed obsession with financial domination and his musical decline because of his spiritual journey or his paranoia of getting older?

How does anyone put all of these opinion together? Purely conjecture in my eyes.

#1 most people become more spiritual as they get older. It comes from experience and lessons learned. So yeah he's not gonna be the super hungry creative force that fueled him in the early 80's. So what? People around here act as he is declining musically because of his faith. I just don't see it that way. I saw him in concert dec 2013 and he was as funky as ever. It wasn't preaching or watered down funk. It was on point. And so what if his music has mellowed out a little. It's still funky to my ears. Let him experiment with 3EG all he wants. He gave us UKnow and the Gold Standared and Time and FunknRoll. Let him broaden his horizons. I don't mind at all.

>>
I agree he is still funky, I just feel that as a JW his lyrics and subject matter are constrained. Prince was never about being constrained. Nothing wrong with that personally, but I do believe it may prohibit him from being completely free when it comes to songwriting.

#2 I admire Prince's sense of financial control. So many people here act as if he's looking for change in his couch or something. How many musicians retire broke and in debt? Plenty. Not our boy P. Plus he has what most musicians lack for the long term, a real identity as a musician. He lives and breathes music. He records constantly and has studied the music business for a long time. So he wants to be in control of his artistic output and the money it generates. So what? I would be too if I was him. I dont think it's obsessive at all? I think it's the wave of the future for recording artists, especially those who are very sucessful.

>>
There are many artists of similar status to Prince who have more money than God that share far more with their fan bases. Nothing wrong with making money, but I really get this feeling that profit plays a very large part in every decision he makes. I think if you ask any great artist, the second money starts dictating your art it is over.

#3 I agree that your statement about his ego is pure speculation. Yes he likes nice thing and attractive things. Me too. I tend to have around attractive people myself. I do have a few uglies around too btw. But as much as prince is supposed to be obsessed with vanity he also has a long track record of working with people that just have talent. Like Tevin Campbell or Chaka Kahn or Rosie Gaines or Mavis Staples and of course Larry Graham who tips the ugly meter in my eyes. Yes he growing older and he is making every attempt to compensate for that. Again so what? I meet tons of people just like him dong the exact same thing, woman and men alike. This point is very moot to me.

>>
Nothing wrong at all with the way Prince is aging, I just think for someone who has been so obsessed with appearance and control, that as beauty fades his spirit, confidence and creativity may take a hit. Completely normal for us mortals but this is just a discussion of factors that may inhibit Prince from unleashing his true creative ability at this point.


#4 Who is more relevant than Prince today. He is rock royalty with a huge crown. Everyone in the music business knows this. He is household name and has 40+ years to back him up. In my eyes he is above the charts. Been there done that. Would he like it if he had a huge hit? Sure. But is he chasing it? Not from the way I see it. I seem him as being very comfortable right where he is. He is doing things as he wants to and how he wants to. He has mastered his craft from every angle and he knows it and anyone that is smart knows it too! So no I don't share your view on this. He is in a very happy place as far I can tell.

>>

I agree with you here mostly. I think Prince is finally getting the respect he deserves. I can't say though that I agree that nobody is more relevant than Prince at this point. Revered yes, relevant no.

In the end I love the music he is making and I consider it a gift that he shares it with us. I love seeing him in concert. And I am so happy he has reached this place in his career. I am just happy to say that his music is still 2funkE 2 me!

>>
Absolutely!

[Edited 3/12/15 8:22am]

Listen 2funkE I still love your posts. There are about a dozen people on this org site that I always look for. This dozen to me make a lot of sense and I admire and respect their opinions. Your one of them on my list. I just disagree with you on this thread. No biggie. I think the tone of your thread is just pure speculation and guessing. Like he says in face down he "never respected the root of all evil and I still don't to this day!" I believe that. Even now. I believe he wants to be in control of his life and his artistic output.

I feel the same way about my life. I know what it's like to want to have complete control over one's own life. It's not about ego and vainity or being ocd. It's a stage in life that often people get to.

So we can agree to disagree on this point. I will still look forward to your posts. This one I gotta slightly disagree with you. Prince is not in creative prision imo, he's the most open and creative he has been in a long time.

2funkE said:

I was thinking the other night about Prince, his latest output and whether or not he still had the ability to drop that album that sets us all back on our ass.

I don't think that happens. Not just with Prince but with anyone. There's never a universal concensus on albums. When you read reviews of any album on Amazon or any other site there's never anything that doesn't have people that don't get it or appreciate it. The media plays up albums each year that gives that impression, but the reality is that when you look back at any canonical album, there were always tons of people who derided them as trash. When an established artist releases a good album these days, unless it receives super media attention, there will always be those that say, well it doesn't compare to their "Ziggy Stardust & the Spiders from Mars" or their "Joshua Tree" or their "Like a Prayer" etc etc. No Prince album has never not had people calling it shit and there never will be. We look back retrospectively as if PR and SOTT were universal concensuses of greatness but that's a reinterpretation of history, not an accurate representation of what happened.

[Edited 3/12/15 9:11am]

2funkE said:

However the exhilerating "I don't give an F" attitude that permeated so much of his best earlier work is likely gone and replaced with the baggage, self-doubt and even crotchiness that comes with getting older combined with the distractions mentioned above.

Could you give an example of self-doubt? I still see a man with little filter and little desire to have one. Where do you see him second guessing himself? Or do you mean on the business end?

lezama said:

2funkE said:

However the exhilerating "I don't give an F" attitude that permeated so much of his best earlier work is likely gone and replaced with the baggage, self-doubt and even crotchiness that comes with getting older combined with the distractions mentioned above.

Could you give an example of self-doubt? I still see a man with little filter and little desire to have one. Where do you see him second guessing himself? Or do you mean on the business end?

Yes I agree with lezama (another favorite poster on my list). I see Prince being supremely confident with little self doubt. He is still making moves and doing this his way. Give specifice examples if you can.

Outside of the relgion, I think people forget that Prince is running a multi-million dollar corporation at. the. same. time.

When you run the business and don't just work in it, of course you are obsessed with profits/expenses because when you RUN a business every day you are losing $$ or making $$. It's not a grey area. Win or lose. Everyday.
He deserves t osqueeze every dime out of his work in the way that suits him. He doesn't owe anyone anything and he has the right to be paid for what he does offer. How dare he expect to profit? C'mon now...thats some lame thinking - it doesn't matter if you're rich your work is your work and you deserve as much profit as is legally possible!

ART is BUSINESS. Like it or not. Earlier on in the old structure the record company handled the business, and that let Prince run free as an artist. He can't do that anymore, and what he's doing right now is superhuman.

Alot of his energy gets expended in running the business, and he's shown himself to be very creative that way too.

All the other stuff about his obsession w beauty etc etc...meh that's kind of silly, he's in the public eye - he has to think about it but he's also been smartly transitioning over the years from less athletic displays of showmanship to focus more on musicianship as the sole focus....

If he didnt have to think about running the business first - his creative output would benefit but thats the way it is right now and its alot to handle.

[Edited 3/12/15 10:57am]

lezama said:

2funkE said:

However the exhilerating "I don't give an F" attitude that permeated so much of his best earlier work is likely gone and replaced with the baggage, self-doubt and even crotchiness that comes with getting older combined with the distractions mentioned above.

Could you give an example of self-doubt? I still see a man with little filter and little desire to have one. Where do you see him second guessing himself? Or do you mean on the business end?

I would say much of it on the biz end which then effects his music. So much about Prince these days is not about the music. It's the money, the record company, jw filter, the distribution challenges, the endless fight against unauthorized presentation of his music on an uncontrollable medium, concert promotion etc.

IMHO, I see a man who is trying to control everything in his universe, often in areas where he does not have the expertise to do so. Prince Emancipated himself from Warner Bros but as a result, took on all those responsibilities himself often with mixed results.

Certainly it his perogative at this stage in life and business to want to control his empire, but I cannot help but think it is must overwhelm what was once his sole priority - making great music.

All just my perception of course based on observations over the years and the feeling that his recent releases, while special, only touch on his capabilities.

vinaysfunk said:

terrig said:Outside of the relgion, I think people forget that Prince is running a multi-million dollar corporation at. the. same. time. When you run the business and don't just work in it, of course you are obsessed with profits/expenses because when you RUN a business every day you are losing $$ or making $$. It's not a grey area. Win or lose. Everyday.He deserves t osqueeze every dime out of his work in the way that suits him. He doesn't owe anyone anything and he has the right to be paid for what he does offer. How dare he expect to profit? C'mon now...thats some lame thinking - it doesn't matter if you're rich your work is your work and you deserve as much profit as is legally possible! ART is BUSINESS. Like it or not. Earlier on in the old structure the record company handled the business, and that let Prince run free as an artist. He can't do that anymore, and what he's doing right now is superhuman. Alot of his energy gets expended in running the business, and he's shown himself to be very creative that way too. All the other stuff about his obsession w beauty etc etc...meh that's kind of silly, he's in the public eye - he has to think about it but he's also been smartly transitioning over the years from less athletic displays of showmanship to focus more on musicianship as the sole focus.... If he didnt have to think about running the business first - his creative output would benefit but thats the way it is right now and its alot to handle.

Very good points indeed terriq. Your on my list of favorite posters too!

[Edited 3/12/15 10:57am]

likewise vinaysfunk! xo

2funkE said:

lezama said:

Could you give an example of self-doubt? I still see a man with little filter and little desire to have one. Where do you see him second guessing himself? Or do you mean on the business end?

I would say much of it on the biz end which then effects his music. So much about Prince these days is not about the music. It's the money, the record company, jw filter, the distribution challenges, the endless fight against unauthorized presentation of his music on an uncontrollable medium, concert promotion etc.

IMHO, I see a man who is trying to control everything in his universe, often in areas where he does not have the expertise to do so. Prince Emancipated himself from Warner Bros but as a result, took on all those responsibilities himself often with mixed results.

Certainly it his perogative at this stage in life and business to want to control his empire, but I cannot help but think it is must overwhelm what was once his sole priority - making great music.

All just my perception of course based on observations over the years and the feeling that his recent releases, while special, only touch on his capabilities.

Good points. I don't disagree with anything here. The controlling I don't think is new though. He's always wanted to control aspects of his work and life that others freely let others do for them, but I think the difference is that through time, as he became competent in some areas he felt the need to take it a step further and a step further, perhaps because he likes challenge and taking risks. His trajectory in this business throughout all of its ups and down has been guided by that same desire for control and taking risk. Thats why I questioned the "second-guessing" thing. To me, insofar as he does it it's last minute or sporadic. Most people don't have near as much confidence in things that may be such long-shots as Prince. But entrepreneurs often need that confidence to take the necessary risks to succeed. That personality trait is also one of the things that make Prince & Madonna very similar. They love risk and they don't really have filters. And thats both brought them to the stars and also in part caused many of their faults. Madonna though is better than Prince on the trust issue. She has great management that Prince could use but he probably doesn't truly trust others too much.

I think if Prince is in any prison, its a prison created by his "fans".

Instead of taking the music for what it is, his current expression of art, every note and lyric has to be compared to his hey day and/or compared to every other musician, living or dead.

He expresses his beliefs in his music. He's always done that. He expressed his religious, societal, and political beliefs in his music in the so-called early days, it just wasn't given a particular name (i.e. JW). When there was so much hedonism along with his music in the early days, it was great; but, when the hedonism left, maybe his music wasn't so great... Many "fans" repeatedly wish for him to return to his hedonistic style, and they just won't let it go. If he doesn't want to curse or be raunchy, thats his choice. If he goes back to that, thats his choice.

It appears his "fans" don't want him to choose anything but what they want. That's his prison.

[Edited 3/12/15 13:08pm]

Paisley Park?