MattyJam said:

I can hear that much of Emancipation uses drum programming which today sounds very dated. I do not however hear this same problem on Rave, despite it being much-maligned for its supposed "plastic" production values. My question to you Rave-detractors is, what specifically is it about the albums production which bothers you?

I actually agree with you here. I think it suffers more from shitty sequencing and some, in my opinion, honest-to-god terrible songs. Everything from Hot wit U right up to and including Baby Knows is middling to awful for me.

[Edited 1/16/15 4:45am]

Too many of the songs don't groove at all.

The production on many of the tracks is just clunky and feels stiff.

I don't know what that drum sound used on tracks like "The Greatest Romance Ever Sold" and "Hot Wit U" really is. An acoustic kit with the individual hits dumped into a sampler and triggered from the keyboard? Not sure. The end result just doesn't work at all to my ears. I hated the sound on NPS and it's a bit of a mystery why he continued to use it on Rave as well.

It's a weird album in the sense that many of the songs you'd think would sound better with the Linn ("Hot Wit U", "Strange But True") use that "modern R&B kit" sound and then many of the songs you wouldn't expect the Linn to appear on actually have it on them ("Undisputed", "Wherever U Go"). I think "Hot Wit U" would have kicked ass with the Linn used on it.

I don't mind at all tracks like the title track, "The Sun, The Moon and Stars", "Baby Knows" or "Prettyman". They're at least just as good as the "lesser" tracks from the Batman / GB era. If people dismiss the album entirely they're obviously not listening.

[Edited 1/16/15 5:02am]

jaawwnn said:

MattyJam said:

jaawwnn said:

I actually agree with you here. I think it suffers more from shitty sequencing and some, in my opinion, honest-to-god terrible songs. Everything from Hot wit U right up to and including Baby Knows is middling to awful for me

Tangerine, The Sun The Moon & Stars and Man O War are all good tracks. And SFSP had hit written all over it, although is a little poppy for my tastes. I think Rave is criminally underrated on this board. [Edited 1/16/15 5:30am]

In all honesty i'm struggling to remember how Tangerine, The Sun The Moon & Stars and Man O War actually go. It's been a while since I gave the album a whirl, will have to give it another shot.

I think there's the guts of a good song in SFSP but it's recorded little too soft rock for me. Not bad production per se, just not production I like. Is it the the first in a long line of songs like this? Songs like The One U Wanna C, The Morning After and Rock'n'Roll Love Affair. Hard to dislike but hard (for me anyway) to get especially excited about.

I like the project. It's underrated in my book.

I love this album, I have nothing bad to say about it other than Every Day Is A Winding Road, it starts off amazing, then it progressively becomes hard to listen to, especially when Larry chimes in. Sorry Larry.

[Edited 1/16/15 7:47am]

i'm not a "detractor" of this album and I think the "plastic sound" the OP that I have seen posted here is just a lazy, undetailed description. i think its quite diverse sonically even if there are some less than great songs. I'm a huge Chuck D fan, so I like Undisputed, GRES suits my ears well also. Actually the ONLY tracks i skip are Baby Knows and Hot Wit U and the "hidden track". although the Crow cover is not stellar, its not "unlistenable" to me. Wrongly maligned album IMO

I love the Rave album. Always have and always will, it's a fantastic record.

datdude said:

i'm not a "detractor" of this album and I think the "plastic sound" the OP that I have seen posted here is just a lazy, undetailed description. i think its quite diverse sonically even if there are some less than great songs. I'm a huge Chuck D fan, so I like Undisputed, GRES suits my ears well also. Actually the ONLY tracks i skip are Baby Knows and Hot Wit U and the "hidden track". although the Crow cover is not stellar, its not "unlistenable" to me. Wrongly maligned album IMO

Couldn't agree more. People can't seem to get past the fact that Larry says the word 'god' on the album, which I think is insane.

kenkamken said:

It's most likely because of the "guest list" approach deployed, ala Santana. It's a formula that was working for Santana, but Prince fans want to hear him, not the latest pop star. I like the album, I generally like when he collaborates with other artists, and this album has interesting choices. I also bought the outtakes that cropped up on other albums, Providence on Ani's To The Teeth, Waiting Room on No Doubt's Rock Steady, Greatest Romance on Maceo's album, etc. The man is constantly recording, would love to hear more outtakes released.

If so, it's a superficial reason. The guest stars - Eve, Sheryl Crow, Gwen Stefani, Chuck D. - are barely in evidence.

"I Love U but I don't trust U anymore" has to be one of the greatest last lines to a song ever.

The "plastic" production isn't on every track.

The problem is when it sounds like an entire song was recorded on a single keyboard. Prince singing over a loop with the occasional digital instrumental flourish. There are a couple of tracks

"Everyday" "Man'o'War", "Silly Game", "Wherever you go", "Strange but true". All suffer the same fate. Nothing stands out, none of the instrumentation has any oomph to it. They all have a demo like feel to them. Even "I love you but I don't trust you" has some weird hiss on the track like it was a demo. Deliberate of course, but it has the impression of just being like that for effect.

Those songs run pretty much back to back over "side 2" of the album. It makes for a dull listening experience. By the time prettyman hits you it's hard to find the energy to care. There is a lack of dynamism in the music.

The guest stars bring very little to the table. Cheryl Crow and Ani DiFranco might as well not be on the record. Chuck D doesn't bring much to the table here. Eve's contribution is probably the most worthwhile. It can't be coincidence that she's on the two strongest tracks. Gwen Stefani sounds great singing next to Prince. Just a shame it was on such a throwaway song. (It's not a bad song by any means but it's nothing spectacular).

The album is manufactured pop from start to finish - By Prince and Clive Davis. It followed a fomula and it was Prince pandering, from the "I'm bringing back the linn" to "Produced by Prince because Prince was a great editor". The album and his attitude completely misjudged his audience. His attitude of the time didn't help either.

To end on a positive. "Rave IN2 the joy fantastic" is much better. The title track becomes something you could almost dance to. "Hot with you" gets the nastygirl treatment which makes it a banger. Two of the worst tracks are kicked in favour of "Beautiful Strange" making the second half of the album less of a chore. The rest of the remixes either liven up or open up the songs and make them more accessible.

Another positive - I think the video for TGRES is great. You can pause the video at any point and on your screen is a beautiful, striking or interesting photograph - likely due more to the director to be fair.. Even the song is decent. There is a great little hook in the melody, the lyrics aren't bad either.

Noodled24 said:

The "plastic" production isn't on every track.

The problem is when it sounds like an entire song was recorded on a single keyboard. Prince singing over a loop with the occasional digital instrumental flourish. There are a couple of tracks

"Everyday" "Man'o'War", "Silly Game", "Wherever you go", "Strange but true". All suffer the same fate. Nothing stands out, none of the instrumentation has any oomph to it. They all have a demo like feel to them. Even "I love you but I don't trust you" has some weird hiss on the track like it was a demo. Deliberate of course, but it has the impression of just being like that for effect.

Those songs run pretty much back to back over "side 2" of the album. It makes for a dull listening experience. By the time prettyman hits you it's hard to find the energy to care. There is a lack of dynamism in the music.

The guest stars bring very little to the table. Cheryl Crow and Ani DiFranco might as well not be on the record. Chuck D doesn't bring much to the table here. Eve's contribution is probably the most worthwhile. It can't be coincidence that she's on the two strongest tracks. Gwen Stefani sounds great singing next to Prince. Just a shame it was on such a throwaway song. (It's not a bad song by any means but it's nothing spectacular).

The album is manufactured pop from start to finish - By Prince and Clive Davis. It followed a fomula and it was Prince pandering, from the "I'm bringing back the linn" to "Produced by Prince because Prince was a great editor". The album and his attitude completely misjudged his audience. His attitude of the time didn't help either.

To end on a positive. "Rave IN2 the joy fantastic" is much better. The title track becomes something you could almost dance to. "Hot with you" gets the nastygirl treatment which makes it a banger. Two of the worst tracks are kicked in favour of "Beautiful Strange" making the second half of the album less of a chore. The rest of the remixes either liven up or open up the songs and make them more accessible.

Another positive - I think the video for TGRES is great. You can pause the video at any point and on your screen is a beautiful, striking or interesting photograph - likely due more to the director to be fair.. Even the song is decent. There is a great little hook in the melody, the lyrics aren't bad either.

Has Clive ever done anything that wasn't manufactured pop from start to finish?

Rave is amongst the worst Prince albums of all time, beside New Power Soul and Planet Earth.

feeluupp said:

SanMartin said:

I have no complaints about Rave's production values. What the album needed was some serious quality control with regards to which songs were included. Much like Graffiti Bridge, there is an album's worth of good tracks here, but they're sandwiched in between so much filler that slogging through the whole thing becomes a chore.

Sadly that is the epitome of almost every Prince album released after The Love Symbol album.

I never disliked a Prince album so much and for so long as I did Rave only to later prefer it, warts and all, to most of his other albums for some reason. I think at the time it came out, I didn't like the plastic sound compared to my favorite 80's Prince albums. And now I dislike the sound on some of the albums that came later to a point, that Rave is like a happy medium or something for me. Weird, I know.

There are some good songs on this album,but the whole thing just seems unfocused.As someone said,the sequencing is weird and I think there are too many slow songs.

..

[Edited 1/16/15 18:54pm]

My perfect configuration would probably be:

Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic

Undisputed (The Moneyapolis Mix)

The Greatest Romance Ever Been Sold (Extended Remix feat. Eve)

Hot Wit U (Nasty Girl Remix)

So Far So Pleased

The Sun, The Moon & Stars

Baby Knows

Wherever U Go, Whatever U Do

Beautiful Strange
Pretty Man (Extended Mix)

10 track album, 5 from Un2 and 5 from In2. Perfect.

feeluupp said:

SanMartin said:

I have no complaints about Rave's production values. What the album needed was some serious quality control with regards to which songs were included. Much like Graffiti Bridge, there is an album's worth of good tracks here, but they're sandwiched in between so much filler that slogging through the whole thing becomes a chore.

Sadly that is the epitome of almost every Prince album released after The Love Symbol album.

Not even close. Come, TGE, Exodus - the latter two are heavy on segues but the songs are more than strong enough to cope with that weight. Rave buckles at the second song and collapses by track 8. If you stick with it you eventually get "Prettyman" but it's just not worth the effort. I don't think the same can be said of any Prince album pre-Rave.

ufoclub said:

Personally I always thought The Greatest Romance song was very well produced and catchy. Even if it had a sample loop going through it. It is masterful melody-smithing and has very cool shifts in that almost eastern key. I also think that the Love U Don't Trust U song is one of his all time best. And then I do like "prettyman" quite a bit. That's three keepers for me! I do like listening to the title track as well, but it is so experimental in its minimal arrangement, slowed beat sedated, and then hyper energized vocal. It's not something that could hit. I think the flaw in production on other songs is not in what the beat was derived from but that the lead synths and embellishment noises often sound cheap or haphazard.

Agreed, except I prefer ILUDTU song has better production/sound live than on the album. I always liked the song, but couldn't stand the production. So, I now can play it, the way I imagine the song to be all along!

Noodled24 said:

feeluupp said:

Sadly that is the epitome of almost every Prince album released after The Love Symbol album.

Not even close. Come, TGE, Exodus - the latter two are heavy on segues but the songs are more than strong enough to cope with that weight. Rave buckles at the second song and collapses by track 8. If you stick with it you eventually get "Prettyman" but it's just not worth the effort. I don't think the same can be said of any Prince album pre-Rave.

and that's why i said... ALMOST...

^ I know. That's why I pointed out you were using it in a very broad sense. Since the album was released in 92, and it was 1999 when we saw the first underwhelming Prince album.