Wow, the more I hear from Prince's unreleased catalogue the more I appreciate his judgment in his "officially released" output. I downloaded the Vault a few years ago, and just heard a couple dozen more songs today along with the entire goldnigga album and SIGH, for me its been largely underwhelming.(All Day, All Night, Baby Go Go, Purple Music, Extraloveable, Wonderful Ass, Possessed, Electric Intercourse, Traffic Jam, etc have a few dozen "clunkers" to offset them).

Yes he's had some uneven "official" releases, post peak (but who hasn't) but I'll take widely dissed PE, 20Ten, MPLSound and Plectrum over "classic era" vault stuff. I'm hard pressed to believe that anything compiled from the massive vault would be amount to a remotely cohesive "must have" project (not counting "reconfigurations that include songs released outside of their "original albums") Goldnigga effectively supplanted NPS as his worst album IMO. This track record makes me gunshy to continue diggin' and reluctant to give The Chocolate Invasion and The Slaughterhouse, and Xpectation a real listen.

I really hope he entrusts his estate to somehow who can properly curate his material into cohesive projects, because either listening to "random tracks" from The Vault doesn't do the songs justice, or they really just aren't that good and remain(ed) in the vault for a reason

[Edited 1/11/15 20:56pm]

Underneath the Cream, Radical Man and Avalanche are all released songs, (on The Chocolate Invasion, The Slaughter House, and One Nite Alone)... plus Avalanche is actually pretty good in my own opinion. Granted, there's a lot of fluff in the vault - but from what I've listened to there's a whole lot of music that is as good and often much better than what he releases. He releases songs like 'Dady Pop' and leaves 'I Wonder' in the vault... doesn't make sense. Even this year, the songs previewed on the Yahoo thing were stronger that most of the AOA/Plec material. But then, keeping a tight lock on the vault door is sheilding the world at large from 'Work That Fat', so it isn't all bad.

your point is well taken about the "released" tracks I mentioned (and then deleted) but i think you echo my sentiment, sure there are some gems, but I think they're in less abundance than we think. i think the newer tracks u mentioned from the Yahoo piece WILL see the light of day.

I guess the idea of "curating" a release makes me understand why some songs are just "stand alone" singles w/o an album "context" and should be judged as such

Yes, you're right. I'm so happy I have Wedding Feast, Jughead, Daddy Pop, Mr Goodnight, We March, I Rock Therefore I Am, Right The Wrong, Dear Mr Man, Life O The Party, Graffiti Bridge, The 1990's recording of Old Friends 4 Sale, etc.

It would be torture if he had released HORRIBLE songs like the original version of Old Friends 4 Sale, Moonbeam Levels, Witness 4 The Prosecution, the original Data Bank, Open Book, Wonderful Ass, Train, The Sex Of It...

yeah, them some horrible songs there.

stillwaiting said:

Yes, you're right. I'm so happy I have Wedding Feast, Jughead, Daddy Pop, Mr Goodnight, We March, I Rock Therefore I Am, Right The Wrong, Dear Mr Man, Life O The Party, Graffiti Bridge, The 1990's recording of Old Friends 4 Sale, etc.

It would be torture if he had released HORRIBLE songs like the original version of Old Friends 4 Sale, Moonbeam Levels, Witness 4 The Prosecution, the original Data Bank, Open Book, Wonderful Ass, Train, The Sex Of It...

yeah, them some horrible songs there.

Errr.... I actually like "I Rock Therefore I Am" and "Dear Mr. Man" a lot!

teoalcantara said:

Errr.... I actually like "I Rock Therefore I Am" and "Dear Mr. Man" a lot!

Yes and Goldnigga is better than anything released in this century.

We don't really know much about what's lying in the vault since 1996 so I think this discussion is only relevant when it comes to earlier eras.

We all have our favorites and we've all thought stuff such as "why did We March make the cut instead of Ripopgodazipa" or "why was Free selected in place of Moonbeam Levels" but in the end I think all of Prince's albums have a strong internal logic. All My Dreams is an absolute gem but when you hear the final configuration of Parade it obviously was better to leave it out. Same with Crystal Ball: it may be the best track from the whole Crystal Ball set but once it became a double album it didn't really belong anymore.

I mean all the albums from 1980-88 if not 78-95 have been critically acclaimed overall and are now considered classics by most people on this forum, so I guess the selection wasn't so bad after all.

Now I agree, all those floating outtakes... I hardly ever listen to them at all anymore, the same way I hardly ever listen to all the non-album tracks that were released online over the course of the past few years... I need ALBUMS. Cohesive collections of outtakes would help me pay more attention to them.

databank said:

We don't really know much about what's lying in the vault since 1996 so I think this discussion is only relevant when it comes to earlier eras.

We all have our favorites and we've all thought stuff such as "why did We March make the cut instead of Ripopgodazipa" or "why was Free selected in place of Moonbeam Levels" but in the end I think all of Prince's albums have a strong internal logic. All My Dreams is an absolute gem but when you hear the final configuration of Parade it obviously was better to leave it out. Same with Crystal Ball: it may be the best track from the whole Crystal Ball set but once it became a double album it didn't really belong anymore.

I mean all the albums from 1980-88 if not 78-95 have been critically acclaimed overall and are now considered classics by most people on this forum, so I guess the selection wasn't so bad after all.

Now I agree, all those floating outtakes... I hardly ever listen to them at all anymore, the same way I hardly ever listen to all the non-album tracks that were released online over the course of the past few years... I need ALBUMS. Cohesive collections of outtakes would help me pay more attention to them.

I've always thought Crystal Ball could have replaced the It's Gonna Be a Beautiful Night.

thisisreece said:

databank said:

We don't really know much about what's lying in the vault since 1996 so I think this discussion is only relevant when it comes to earlier eras.

We all have our favorites and we've all thought stuff such as "why did We March make the cut instead of Ripopgodazipa" or "why was Free selected in place of Moonbeam Levels" but in the end I think all of Prince's albums have a strong internal logic. All My Dreams is an absolute gem but when you hear the final configuration of Parade it obviously was better to leave it out. Same with Crystal Ball: it may be the best track from the whole Crystal Ball set but once it became a double album it didn't really belong anymore.

I mean all the albums from 1980-88 if not 78-95 have been critically acclaimed overall and are now considered classics by most people on this forum, so I guess the selection wasn't so bad after all.

Now I agree, all those floating outtakes... I hardly ever listen to them at all anymore, the same way I hardly ever listen to all the non-album tracks that were released online over the course of the past few years... I need ALBUMS. Cohesive collections of outtakes would help me pay more attention to them.

I've always thought Crystal Ball could have replaced the It's Gonna Be a Beautiful Night.

The narrative dynamic of the album would have been entirely different with such an ending. I don't think it would have worked as well as with IGBABN (a party song).

teoalcantara said:

stillwaiting said:

Yes, you're right. I'm so happy I have Wedding Feast, Jughead, Daddy Pop, Mr Goodnight, We March, I Rock Therefore I Am, Right The Wrong, Dear Mr Man, Life O The Party, Graffiti Bridge, The 1990's recording of Old Friends 4 Sale, etc.

It would be torture if he had released HORRIBLE songs like the original version of Old Friends 4 Sale, Moonbeam Levels, Witness 4 The Prosecution, the original Data Bank, Open Book, Wonderful Ass, Train, The Sex Of It...

yeah, them some horrible songs there.

Errr.... I actually like "I Rock Therefore I Am" and "Dear Mr. Man" a lot!

I hear u stillwaiting. I am with u on thse two and I will add Daddy Pop (minus Tony's rap), We March (political Prince is one of favorite versions of him, the content makes up what isn't the worst arrangement ppl try to claim), Mr. Goodnight (can the guy have some fun or naw), and OF4S (i haven't heard the others so...) and as wack as Graffiit Bridge and Wedding Feast are, they served a purpose on their albums (WF lesser perhaps LOL)

Teo put "etc" and I get that, as did I when I listed the GOOD vault songs. We can go tit for tat, but again, a good vault song on an album just because its a good song, doesn't make sense and I think that's why so much remains there. Again, curate them or release them Crystal Ball style with era, origins and let them stand alone.

datdude said:

teoalcantara said:

Errr.... I actually like "I Rock Therefore I Am" and "Dear Mr. Man" a lot!

I hear u stillwaiting. I am with u on thse two and I will add Daddy Pop (minus Tony's rap), We March (political Prince is one of favorite versions of him, the content makes up what isn't the worst arrangement ppl try to claim), Mr. Goodnight (can the guy have some fun or naw), and OF4S (i haven't heard the others so...) and as wack as Graffiit Bridge and Wedding Feast are, they served a purpose on their albums (WF lesser perhaps LOL)

Teo put "etc" and I get that, as did I when I listed the GOOD vault songs. We can go tit for tat, but again, a good vault song on an album just because its a good song, doesn't make sense and I think that's why so much remains there. Again, curate them or release them Crystal Ball style with era, origins and let them stand alone.

I don't understand the hate for Wedding Feast. Well, I kinda get it, but not the intensity of it. It's pretty much a segue and works in the context of the album. Maybe I let it off some because TRC is becoming one of my very favourite P albums the more I listen to it. On the other hand, as cool as I think the title is, Graffiti Bridge makes me want to poke barbecue skewers in my ears. The urge is so strong I don't dare listen to it.

datdude said:

Wow, the more I hear from Prince's unreleased catalogue the more I appreciate his judgment in his "officially released" output. I downloaded the Vault a few years ago, and just heard a couple dozen more songs today along with the entire goldnigga album and SIGH, for me its been largely underwhelming.(All Day, All Night, Baby Go Go, Purple Music, Extraloveable, Wonderful Ass, Possessed, Electric Intercourse, Traffic Jam, etc have a few dozen "clunkers" to offset them).

Yes he's had some uneven "official" releases, post peak (but who hasn't) but I'll take widely dissed PE, 20Ten, MPLSound and Plectrum over "classic era" vault stuff. I'm hard pressed to believe that anything compiled from the massive vault would be amount to a remotely cohesive "must have" project (not counting "reconfigurations that include songs released outside of their "original albums") Goldnigga effectively supplanted NPS as his worst album IMO. This track record makes me gunshy to continue diggin' and reluctant to give The Chocolate Invasion and The Slaughterhouse, and Xpectation a real listen.

I really hope he entrusts his estate to somehow who can properly curate his material into cohesive projects, because either listening to "random tracks" from The Vault doesn't do the songs justice, or they really just aren't that good and remain(ed) in the vault for a reason

[Edited 1/11/15 20:56pm]

Goldnigga is an official NPG release and has some great tracks on it (Duece and a Quarter, Call the Law, Johnny)

like i said for me, Goldnigga is worst than NPS and is now in LAST PLACE of P albums that i'm ranking. NPS has Wasted Kisses and The One, its only saving graces IMO and these destroy the two tracks u mentioned.

my theory on Goldnigga, Hip hop and its hypermasculinity was at a peak. And P was feeling the absence of real male friendship in his life (that's a real thing) and so he tries to bond with some "real bruhs" over the easiest thing men bond over, women. He tries to "blend in" and be one of the guys and the album just doesn't work. Now THIS is Prince-funk by the numbers!!

datdude said:

like i said for me, Goldnigga is worst than NPS and is now in LAST PLACE of P albums that i'm ranking. NPS has Wasted Kisses and The One, its only saving graces IMO and these destroy the two tracks u mentioned.

my theory on Goldnigga, Hip hop and its hypermasculinity was at a peak. And P was feeling the absence of real male friendship in his life (that's a real thing) and so he tries to bond with some "real bruhs" over the easiest thing men bond over, women. He tries to "blend in" and be one of the guys and the album just doesn't work. Now THIS is Prince-funk by the numbers!!

I can't believe u rank Carmen Electra above Gold Nigga

It's Gold Nigga not Goldnigga, BTW

datdude said:

my theory on Goldnigga, Hip hop and its hypermasculinity was at a peak. And P was feeling the absence of real male friendship in his life (that's a real thing) and so he tries to bond with some "real bruhs" over the easiest thing men bond over, women. He tries to "blend in" and be one of the guys and the album just doesn't work. Now THIS is Prince-funk by the numbers!!

Was hip-hop at it's peak in 1992?. Notorious BIG hadn't released his first album. Tupac made his debut in 1991 with 2pacalipse now. I'm aware hip-hop was around before those two names but you can't possibly claim hip-hop peaked before Tupac and BIG.

Arguably outside of the USA Prince was probably one of the first major pop stars to embrace hiphop. Bob George aside, Jackson had tried to project a hip-hop-esque image with the "Bad" and "Dangerous" videos. But IIRC the only rap on either album is a verse in "Black Or White". That was '91. In 1990 Prince had flirted with rap on Graffiti Bridge, and in '91 successfully used elements of hiphop on "Gett Off" and had a huge hit with it. In'92 Prince had another huge album with in which rap is featured throughout.. Jackson didn't really use hip-hop until '95, and Madonna until 20something. Prince came to hiphop earlier than most people think, but rather than reaching out to hiphop artists he wanted everything to be inhouse.

I agree the album is 90% unremarkable.

databank said:

datdude said:

like i said for me, Goldnigga is worst than NPS and is now in LAST PLACE of P albums that i'm ranking. NPS has Wasted Kisses and The One, its only saving graces IMO and these destroy the two tracks u mentioned.

my theory on Goldnigga, Hip hop and its hypermasculinity was at a peak. And P was feeling the absence of real male friendship in his life (that's a real thing) and so he tries to bond with some "real bruhs" over the easiest thing men bond over, women. He tries to "blend in" and be one of the guys and the album just doesn't work. Now THIS is Prince-funk by the numbers!!

I can't believe u rank Carmen Electra above Gold Nigga

It's Gold Nigga not Goldnigga, BTW

Carmen Electra is a protege album, so it doesn't get "ranked" with P's albums. Carmen would be last in the protege categoy though.

and Noodle, your point is well taken, perhaps my chronology is off, but i still think P's attempts were forced and represented the worst sentiments of hip hop's misogyny and hypermasculinity. and u didn't mention the "male relationship need" aspect, perhaps because its speculative, but its a real need for real men

datdude said:

databank said:

I can't believe u rank Carmen Electra above Gold Nigga

It's Gold Nigga not Goldnigga, BTW

Carmen Electra is a protege album, so it doesn't get "ranked" with P's albums. Carmen would be last in the protege categoy though.

and Noodle, your point is well taken, perhaps my chronology is off, but i still think P's attempts were forced and represented the worst sentiments of hip hop's misogyny and hypermasculinity. and u didn't mention the "male relationship need" aspect, perhaps because its speculative, but its a real need for real men

Gold Nigga is just as much a protégé album as Carmen Electra: officially it isn't a "Prince" or a "" album. U can't rule one out and the other in

Gold Nigga/Goldnigga is like a jazzy rap album, that's why it's so great*. And there is no misogyny or hypermasculinity on the album...

*and some of it carries over to Carmen Electra.

Wasted Kisses/The One: both are great arrangements but oversung.

Pentacle said:

Gold Nigga/Goldnigga is like a jazzy rap album, that's why it's so great*. And there is no misogyny or hypermasculinity on the album...

*and some of it carries over to Carmen Electra.

Wasted Kisses/The One: both are great arrangements but oversung.

It was clearly P's "hip-hop phase" between D&P and Gold Nigga. Carmen Electra's lyrics are basically just her bragging about how she is the sexiest, hottest woman on the planet. How more stupid can it get? I mean P bragging about how hot he is in The Continental and some stuff like that, it's funny, but a whole album about why we oughta worship Carmen, this is just plain gross.

Incidentally I've been listening to the first 2 configurations of her album lately and I find them somewhat better than the final, released one.

SuperSoulFighter said:

I like the Carmen album a whole lot better than Gold Nigga: it has no segues, no instrumentals, no Tony talking blabla, no annoying "oh oh oh oh oh oh" and much stronger melodies. And with a body like that, she's allowed to do some braggin'. [Edited 1/13/15 7:11am]

I never though I'd ever read "I like the Carmen album a whole lot better than Gold Nigga" in my life

I mean I'm cool, that's your feeling and I respect that but I'm genuinely surprised (+ Carmen Electra is a guilty pleasure for me anyway, I mean if a few tracks that made the final cut had been replaced by some that didn't, it could have been so great musically that I could have forgotten about Carmen's lame rapping and the lame lyrics Prince wrote for her, but I mean seriously no matter what I say I've listened to that album hundreds of times in 21 years and I still come back to it regularly).

There's a lot of Tony M on Carmen Electra (ehhhh) and I love every minute of it.

I agree that Power From Above and especially Carmen On Top should have never been taken off. This goes right back to the topic of this thread. Prince a great editor and leaving the two best tracks off....??? Insane.

Carmen On Top is so good you can ignore all the stupid lyrics.

Pentacle said:

There's a lot of Tony M on Carmen Electra (ehhhh) and I love every minute of it.

I agree that Power From Above and especially Carmen On Top should have never been taken off. This goes right back to the topic of this thread. Prince a great editor and leaving the two best tracks off....??? Insane.

Carmen On Top is so good you can ignore all the stupid lyrics.

I can't tell if you're joking or not

paulludvig said:

Pentacle said:

There's a lot of Tony M on Carmen Electra (ehhhh) and I love every minute of it.

I agree that Power From Above and especially Carmen On Top should have never been taken off. This goes right back to the topic of this thread. Prince a great editor and leaving the two best tracks off....??? Insane.

Carmen On Top is so good you can ignore all the stupid lyrics.

I can't tell if you're joking or not

For once, I'm not joking. People talk about guilty pleasures, well, that's my Prince one. That and My Pony. And Number One (Robin Power) when I'm drunk.

Oh, and Horny Pony