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TARGET/PRINCE: A Critical Thinker's Discussion Thread on Ethical Business See the title? Yea, that means people who are prone to go with Prince like the wind this thread isn't for you. It's for people like Wall,ColAngus,and whoever wants to join in a in depth critical thinking panel on the ethics of this chain store. What really humors me, is the backlash of anyone who offers a dissenting view to the usual.
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Shouldn't this be in the Politics and Religion forum? | |
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Dayclear said: Shouldn't this be in the Politics and Religion forum?
No,This is a on topic discussion regarding Prince's association with the chain store "Target". This is prince related because of the business nature that Prince has anchored himself to. In fact, I would say as soon as the promotion gets running on this, it's completely on topic. But thank you for your cordial response.  | |
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The problem is one of ownership and capitalism ....most of the largest companies in the world have at some point broken ethical laws in some country ..so unless Prince was not going to go down physical distrubution method he would not get his CD out in Physical form...
Da, Da, Da....Emancipation....Free..don't think I ain't..! London 21 Nights...Clap your hands...you know the rest..
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Trickology said: Of more than 1,400 Target stores employing more than 300,000 people nationwide, not one has a union. and prince should solve this problem for them how exactly? not everyting is within prince's power. if anything, all the bitching by people like you and others in the press are going to attract a lot of attention to the horrible practices going on and that's never a bad thing. it will start a discussion, perhaps. if people are not so shallow as to only use this to bitch about prince again but instead as a means of making a difference for the people suffering through target. i was born with the wrong sign, in the wrong house, with the wrong ascendancy | |
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So...anybody who works, but isn't a member of a union, is a slave? | |
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THis is with ANY business. It's not just about Target. If Prince had went to Best Buy or Wal*Mart it would be the same issues. Hell maybe worse. You can't get around it. And how you go and go on about what Prince should have done with HIS busines deal?
When we say that the purpose of life is to find God, surely that desire to find God is an escape from life -Conciouscontact
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I agree and disagree. I hate that Prince went this route with the album. He should swallow his pride and get back to a label and have it distrubuted everywhere.
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That was an interesting piece right there but to me, this is bigger than Prince. Nobody forces anyone to work anywhere, it's a choice, at least it is in America. Nobody is telling workers at Target once you are an employee of Target, then we got you till we say we're done, it's a choice for anyone who wants to work there and if they don't like it, they can go. I have a friend of mine that works in Target and I'm going to ask him how it is working there. I already know that he doesn't like his boss but as for anything else, I'll seek it out. What I know of unions is that they can be great and horrible in one shot. Unions protect workers but they also make it hard to get rid of workers who are shitty unless something really bad happens with them. I've never been in a union but my best friend is in one and that's what I've learned with them. As for Prince and selling his CD's, it's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The labels don't work, now big-chain stores don't work. I guess it's the lesser of 2 evils, when put in this way and with everything in general. Prince.org is a cemetery where folks mourn Prince instead of celebrate him and his music. Last time I checked, Prince isn't dead yet.
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LondonStyle said: The problem is one of ownership and capitalism ....most of the largest companies in the world have at some point broken ethical laws in some country ..so unless Prince was not going to go down physical distrubution method he would not get his CD out in Physical form...
Prince has by allowing his fan the means to download the CD has made a great stand for Ethical business pratice.. But business is business ...and with this in mind he still needs to sell to his customer based that A) do not have internet connection and B) still require an old type CD / Record purchase ...humans have since dawn have purchased physical objects ...that will not change ...music can be downloaded yes but it will still need to carried in some physical form, from place to place or media to media...for years to come. ...next... Unfortunately you didn't answer the allegations and the facts surrounding Target. How can you see this as a good partnership when there is an agreement for a Target commercial as well? Your basis of "you needing a cd" so Prince has to do a deal with Target isn't rational. There are plenty of other avenues of where Prince can sell his CD. That is a fact. You are also engaging in brushing off unethical practices that are across the board that have not been thorougly discussed or investigated due to the fact that Target is a powerful corporation with a cabal of legal counsel. But I assure you a small business could not partake in actions like this due to the unethical matters. My problem with this association stems with the common laissez faire attitude with regards on how chain stores should operate in our towns and cities. Usually what happens in the race to the bottom, the citizens do not start complaining til it effects them directly in a negative manner. That is why you should be weary of partnerships like this,Londonstyle. It's another sign of the festers in our society that will bring America to a standstill regarding Liberty. This is why it's important. And that's also why we as listeners of Prince should be more thoughtful in this manner. And not just blink and shrug it off. You got to start somewhere,LondonStyle. I appreciate your comments though. | |
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OP: I disagree with your assessment of Unions.
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So maybe you should write every non-union employer, and not just focus on Target. I work for a non-union company and I have some of the best benefits an employee can ever imagine. Great healthcare coverage/flex benefits, good salary, just to mention a few. I used to belong to a union when I lived in Florida for anther employer, and they didn't do jackisht for the employees, not to mention, some of the employees there mistreated others.
Education, the greatest weapon
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Genesia said: So...anybody who works, but isn't a member of a union, is a slave?
If I were compelled to join a union and forced to pay dues so that some union mucky-muck could live high on the hog while doing jack shit for me...then I might feel like a slave. (Why should a union get a cut of my pay? Won't I make less once they've taken theirs?) As it is, my employer pays me in a manner I agree is fair (my agreement indicated by the fact that I continue to work here). If I didn't think it was right, I'd work somewhere else - a choice people at Target (presumably) can make for themselves. Unfortunately, You are missing the whole point of this thread. So let me tell you why this looks bad for Bria Valente and Prince. (I will get into Unions in a second) What ethnic background is PRince? What ethnic Background is Bria valente? What you aren't connecting is of how it is perceived. Most likely the manufacturer workers are not white. Do you think a story like this if someone were to bring it up in the paper or press would go over well? How would Prince debate his direct association to Target if asked these questions in a interview? He and Bria would be embarrassed and rightfully so. That most of the workers are working under Slave labor conditions for lower prices. I don't know about you but I see a Orwellian moment right before our eyes. It's not a lower price. It's a higher price for society and the continuation of the race to the bottom which we are currently chugging along with every moment. This is not a way to do business. That is why business and ethics must coexist. Or it will only get worse. BTW, your definition of unions can be said the same for many corporation committees. Once again it's in the framing of the definition. Unions are everywhere in Corporations, know that. It's just defined as something else. It's a brilliant con and another reason why the middle class is getting eliminated. You just accepted the indoctrination of corporate culture. This has happened to alot of america. And a country can't sustain itself with this much apathy regarding Workers in America. I thank you for your response though. | |
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purplecam said: That was an interesting piece right there but to me, this is bigger than Prince. Nobody forces anyone to work anywhere, it's a choice, at least it is in America. Nobody is telling workers at Target once you are an employee of Target, then we got you till we say we're done, it's a choice for anyone who wants to work there and if they don't like it, they can go. I have a friend of mine that works in Target and I'm going to ask him how it is working there. I already know that he doesn't like his boss but as for anything else, I'll seek it out. What I know of unions is that they can be great and horrible in one shot. Unions protect workers but they also make it hard to get rid of workers who are shitty unless something really bad happens with them. I've never been in a union but my best friend is in one and that's what I've learned with them. As for Prince and selling his CD's, it's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The labels don't work, now big-chain stores don't work. I guess it's the lesser of 2 evils, when put in this way and with everything in general.
[Edited 3/3/09 11:42am] Absolutely. If you stay on any job, unionized or not, and you feel there are unfit working conditions or you are being mistreated, then why stay? You can always file a grievance with the EEO in your state once you leave. Target is retail, and there's a multitude of retail stores out there, that may offer better pay and have better working conditions and job growth. I don't condone unfit working conditions or mistreatment of employees by any employer, but no one forces an employee to stay. When these workers took the job, they knew there was no union. Abuse in the workplace happens at unionized companies, if people think it don't, then they are kidding themselves. Does Target force their employees to wear chains on their hands and feet? If they feel they are not paid fairly, then isn't it time to seek other employment? Are these employees not "limiting" themselves to the kind of pay they deserve? Job performance is based on yearly evaluations. Merit increases are based on job performance. I know people making over $50,000 and are having a hard time keeping up with bills on non-union jobs, so what makes a Target employee any different? If you limit yourself, then you limit how far you go in life. [Edited 3/3/09 12:09pm] Education, the greatest weapon
--- To know about humans, you first have to learn where they came from... http://www.youtube.com/wa...V6A8oGtPc4 http://www.youtube.com/wa...04FKo3adw8 | |
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From http://sites.target.com/s...P04-031696
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Dauphin said: OP: I disagree with your assessment of Unions.
A Union's purpose is to provide collective bargaining. When a Business chooses not to accept collective bargaining, then it's choosing to bargain with it's employee on a per person basis. This in reference to pay, promotion, conflict resolution, etc. It's provides a balance of an At-Will Employer and an At-Will Employee. In some cases, it is more efficient to engage in collective bargaining. It may come about because a majority of workers will strike, causing production loss, and more. It's possible to streamline an organization by using collective bargaining to standardize many levels of work flow, compensation, and protection from lawsuits by having consistent conflict resolution. A Union can only exist if the employer deems it necessary to survive. In that way, a business can only exist if the CUSTOMER encourages its existence. Obviously, Target's Non-Union model is sufficient to their bottom line. That allows Target to grow, expand into larger markets, create jobs, and provide competitive prices for products and services. 
When I came to work at the company I've been at for 17 years (first part-time, then full-time), they handed me the company handbook. There, on the very first page, it said (paraphrasing because I don't have it handy), "There are no unions here...and there will be no unions here. We want to deal with issues that employees have one-on-one - we don't need unions getting in the way." The company has always paid wages that are well above the scale for the rural area in which we're located. When I was working part-time, my hourly base wage was, IIRC, around $8.50. And I got a premium for working evenings (probably $.50 an hour) and Sundays (over $1/hr). I thought that was damn good for a part-time job - it's part of the reason I wanted to work here full-time. Since November of 1996, my pay has gone up (on average) 8%/year. That would never have happened if I were in a union - because they'd've taken the raises I earned on merit and spread them around to all the laggards. My sister, on the other hand, is a flight attendant. Her wages have gone down by about a third in the last few years...and she's still paying those union dues. (The flight attendant's union is part of Teamsters.) Yeah...that union membership's worked real well for her. | |
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CarrieMpls said: From http://sites.target.com/s...P04-031696
Corporate Recognition Awards Ethisphere Magazine ranks Target among the World’s Most Ethical Companies – 6/24/2008 BusinessWeek named Target among “Most Innovative Companies” – 4/22/2008 Black Collegian Magazine ranked Target 6th among Top 100 Employers – 3/12/2008 Fortune Magazine ranked Target one of “America’s Most Admired Companies” – 3/3/2008 BusinessWeek ranks Target 20th among top 50 Best Internships – 2008 BusinessWeek lists Target 24th in World’s Most Innovative Companies – 2008 Ethisphere Council names Target one of the World's Most Ethical Companies – 2008 Fortune ranks Target 31st in 500 Largest U.S. Corporations – 2008 Fortune places Target 11th in “America’s Most Admired Companies” – 2008 Fortune magazine names the Target Bullseye the champion in “Company Logo Smackdown,” beating out Apple, Nike, Google, McDonald’s and CBS – 2008 International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) recognized Target for Continued Support and Contributions – 9/1/2007 National Black MBA Association (NBMBAA) Twin Cities Chapter named Target Corporate Partner of the Year – 8/26/2007 Universum Communications listed Target in the Top-10 List of “Ideal Employers” – 8/9/2007 INROADS Corporate Plus Award – 7/19/2007 Chief Executive Magazine named Robert J. Ulrich “CEO of the Year” – 6/7/2007 Federal Bureau of Investigation recognized Target for Community Contributions with “Directors Community Leadership Award” – 6/7/2007 United Way “Operations United Way” earned the “Employee Engagement Award” – 5/17/2007 The Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption ranked Target among Best Adoption-Friendly Companies – 5/3/2007 DiversityBusiness.com recognized Target – 5/1/2007 Ethisphere Council names Target one of the World's Most Ethical Companies – 2007 INROADS 25 Year Commitment Recognition – 2007 International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) recognized Target for Continued Support and Contributions to IACP – 2007 Metropolitan Economic Development Association Corporation of the Year 2007 National Black MBA Association (NBMBAA) The Silver Torch Award – 2007 Corporate Citizenship Survey ranks Target second – 2006 DiversityBusiness.com "Top 50" Corporations for Supplier Diversity – 2006 Federal Bureau of Investigation “Director’s Community Leadership Award” – 2006 Fortune “Top 100 Employers for Women” list – 2006 INROADS Strategic Growth Award – 2006 International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) recognizes Target for continued support and contributions to the IACP – 2006 Metropolitan Economic Development Association Corporation of the Year – 2006 National Association of Minority Contractors Corporate Partner of the Year – 2006 National Business Group on Health “Best Employer for Healthy Lifestyle” – 2006 National White Collar Crime Center (NW3C) recognizes Target for continued dedication in support of state and local law enforcement and NW3C – 2006 Newsweek names Target the corporate recipient of the “Giving Back Awards” – 2006 U.S. Secret Service “Certificate of Appreciation” from Director W. Ralph Basham for efforts and superior contributions to the law enforcement responsibilities of the Secret Service – 2006 Women Business Development Center Minnesota (A chapter of Women Business Enterprise National Council), Corporate Partner of the Year – 2006 American Red Cross Good Neighbor Award – 2005 Americans for the Arts Corporate Citizenship in the Arts Award – 2005 Barron's magazine survey ranks Target 6th "Most Respected Company" – 2005 DiversityBusiness.com "Top 50" Corporations for Supplier Diversity – 2005 Forbes names Target "Most Charitable Company" – 2005 Keep America Beautiful awards 1st place National Award for Waste Reduction – 2005 National Association for Female Executives (NAFE) "Top 30 Companies for Executive Women" – 2005 “Literacy Campaign Award” for Reach Out and Read, presented by First Lady Laura Bush – 2004 American Red Cross Circle of Humanitarians Award – 2004 King Center "Salute to Greatness" Award, recognizing civic engagement and consistent commitment to community” – 2004 National Committee for Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve Washington State Chapter "Outstanding Employer" award – 2004 Working Mother "100 Best Companies for Working Mothers" – 2004 Forbes names Target "One of the Most Philanthropic Companies" – 2003 LOL | |
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2elijah said: So maybe you should write every non-union employer, and not just focus on Target. I work for a non-union company and I have some of the best benefits an employee can ever imagine. Great healthcare coverage/flex benefits, good salary, just to mention a few. I used to belong to a union when I lived in Florida for anther employer, and they didn't do jackisht for the employees, not to mention, some of the employees there mistreated others.
Secondly, if you're bringing home a paycheck, everyone is a slave to society. So what else ya got? About Target, I was happy they came to my neighborhood. Their prices are just right for the average family, seeing how my community is surrounded by 2 other major malls with very expensive stores, where the average family of 2 kids or more, may find it hard to purchase clothing and other basic items, due to high prices. Not to mention the mom and pop stores, that charge an arm and leg for their items. So if you have an issue with Target, then you should have have aired your opinion about it before 3/2 when the articles were posted about Prince doing business with them. All of a sudden now it becomes a concern to you. Not falling for your BS. [Edited 3/3/09 11:50am] It's not BS, first off. I don't shop at chain stores at all. I support my local businesses. It's a discussion regarding the association of Target and Prince. I am telling you that a corporation that engages in this fashion with this many unethical claims against it, isn't a good look for Prince or Bria Valente. The defense you bring that you have a company that is nonunion and it's wonderful, that isn't rational. That will change when times get rougher in the economic landscape. It's like me saying to a person who is dying for a glass of water "Well, I have water. I don't see a problem. Get yourself some water thirsty person " It's insane. Which is really myopic in the bigger picture. You can be happy as a clam that Target comes to your town. But know the price you are putting on our country regarding the growth and development. We can't live in a society based on lower prices for long. One of these days it's going to come back to haunt you. You are going to see the corporations have their own unions but you don't have any place to run to for protection. Then suddenly you will need that glass of water in that desert. Only thing is, there won't be. That's why it's vital,2elijah. It's a safeguard for society for the only last thing to grasp to. And then you will understand the necessity of community run stores. But not until you have that epiphany. Regarding Prince & Target, quite frankly it should be everything he is against,period. I thank you for your comments though. | |
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Trickology said: Genesia said: So...anybody who works, but isn't a member of a union, is a slave?
If I were compelled to join a union and forced to pay dues so that some union mucky-muck could live high on the hog while doing jack shit for me...then I might feel like a slave. (Why should a union get a cut of my pay? Won't I make less once they've taken theirs?) As it is, my employer pays me in a manner I agree is fair (my agreement indicated by the fact that I continue to work here). If I didn't think it was right, I'd work somewhere else - a choice people at Target (presumably) can make for themselves. Unfortunately, You are missing the whole point of this thread. So let me tell you why this looks bad for Bria Valente and Prince. (I will get into Unions in a second) What ethnic background is PRince? What ethnic Background is Bria valente? What you aren't connecting is of how it is perceived. Most likely the manufacturer workers are not white. Do you think a story like this if someone were to bring it up in the paper or press would go over well? How would Prince debate his direct association to Target if asked these questions in a interview? He and Bria would be embarrassed and rightfully so. That most of the workers are working under Slave labor conditions for lower prices. I don't know about you but I see a Orwellian moment right before our eyes. It's not a lower price. It's a higher price for society and the continuation of the race to the bottom which we are currently chugging along with every moment. This is not a way to do business. That is why business and ethics must coexist. Or it will only get worse. BTW, your definition of unions can be said the same for many corporation committees. Once again it's in the framing of the definition. Unions are everywhere in Corporations, know that. It's just defined as something else. It's a brilliant con and another reason why the middle class is getting eliminated. You just accepted the indoctrination of corporate culture. This has happened to alot of america. And a country can't sustain itself with this much apathy regarding Workers in America. I thank you for your response though. Ohhhhh. So this isn't really about unions (even though that's how you framed it). It's about race. (Isn't it always?) And Prince should be embarrassed to be associated with a company that provides jobs for non-white people because...? | |
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Trickology said: LondonStyle said: The problem is one of ownership and capitalism ....most of the largest companies in the world have at some point broken ethical laws in some country ..so unless Prince was not going to go down physical distrubution method he would not get his CD out in Physical form...
Prince has by allowing his fan the means to download the CD has made a great stand for Ethical business pratice.. But business is business ...and with this in mind he still needs to sell to his customer based that A) do not have internet connection and B) still require an old type CD / Record purchase ...humans have since dawn have purchased physical objects ...that will not change ...music can be downloaded yes but it will still need to carried in some physical form, from place to place or media to media...for years to come. ...next... Unfortunately you didn't answer the allegations and the facts surrounding Target. How can you see this as a good partnership when there is an agreement for a Target commercial as well? Your basis of "you needing a cd" so Prince has to do a deal with Target isn't rational. There are plenty of other avenues of where Prince can sell his CD. That is a fact. You are also engaging in brushing off unethical practices that are across the board that have not been thorougly discussed or investigated due to the fact that Target is a powerful corporation with a cabal of legal counsel. But I assure you a small business could not partake in actions like this due to the unethical matters. My problem with this association stems with the common laissez faire attitude with regards on how chain stores should operate in our towns and cities. Usually what happens in the race to the bottom, the citizens do not start complaining til it effects them directly in a negative manner. That is why you should be weary of partnerships like this,Londonstyle. It's another sign of the festers in our society that will bring America to a standstill regarding Liberty. This is why it's important. And that's also why we as listeners of Prince should be more thoughtful in this manner. And not just blink and shrug it off. You got to start somewhere,LondonStyle. I appreciate your comments though. Thanks you but i did , you just have not seen the bigger picture ...a business has one purpose only which is to make MONEY hence the opening line of my first reply to you ..please read it is very important... No the avenues you pretend to lead you down the same street ...you must understand that "REAL" ethical business is based on trade of goods ...i.e. Gold for Guns ....Guns for Slaves...Silk for Spices...etc...yes I have added Slaves as they built the world you and I live in ..and still do around the world. The modern global market does not allow for this "local" trade anymore, because of global markets TIME is now king i.e. TIME is MONEY ...this has been the case for 400 years.. This means that for effective Distrubution to work in these times the return needs to be instant and widespread....hence Prince taking money up front...and the Target Store selling the CD's ...with sole rights in their market... The other key to global markets and the reason we are all in so much trouble at the moment is PROFIT ... hence the reason for the deal ...Target offered the greater profit for Prince and the most creative freedom .... the trade off ...global business only do deals that make them money they do not care about creative freedom ... ...next... Da, Da, Da....Emancipation....Free..don't think I ain't..! London 21 Nights...Clap your hands...you know the rest..
James Brown & Michael Jackson RIP, your music still lives with us! | |
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Genesia said: Trickology said: Unfortunately, You are missing the whole point of this thread. So let me tell you why this looks bad for Bria Valente and Prince. (I will get into Unions in a second) What ethnic background is PRince? What ethnic Background is Bria valente? What you aren't connecting is of how it is perceived. Most likely the manufacturer workers are not white. Do you think a story like this if someone were to bring it up in the paper or press would go over well? How would Prince debate his direct association to Target if asked these questions in a interview? He and Bria would be embarrassed and rightfully so. That most of the workers are working under Slave labor conditions for lower prices. I don't know about you but I see a Orwellian moment right before our eyes. It's not a lower price. It's a higher price for society and the continuation of the race to the bottom which we are currently chugging along with every moment. This is not a way to do business. That is why business and ethics must coexist. Or it will only get worse. BTW, your definition of unions can be said the same for many corporation committees. Once again it's in the framing of the definition. Unions are everywhere in Corporations, know that. It's just defined as something else. It's a brilliant con and another reason why the middle class is getting eliminated. You just accepted the indoctrination of corporate culture. This has happened to alot of america. And a country can't sustain itself with this much apathy regarding Workers in America. I thank you for your response though. Ohhhhh. So this isn't really about unions (even though that's how you framed it). It's about race. (Isn't it always?) And Prince should be embarrassed to be associated with a company that provides jobs for non-white people because...? No, it's about alot of issues regarding this corporation. It doesn't look good from Prince's standpoint. That is what the discussion is about. You can argue the point all you want. But when the smoke clears it still doesn't look ethical. It's a company that relies on intimidation and Slave Labor. I don't know about you but that isn't a good road to traverse for any independent artist. | |
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2elijah said: purplecam said: That was an interesting piece right there but to me, this is bigger than Prince. Nobody forces anyone to work anywhere, it's a choice, at least it is in America. Nobody is telling workers at Target once you are an employee of Target, then we got you till we say we're done, it's a choice for anyone who wants to work there and if they don't like it, they can go. I have a friend of mine that works in Target and I'm going to ask him how it is working there. I already know that he doesn't like his boss but as for anything else, I'll seek it out. What I know of unions is that they can be great and horrible in one shot. Unions protect workers but they also make it hard to get rid of workers who are shitty unless something really bad happens with them. I've never been in a union but my best friend is in one and that's what I've learned with them. As for Prince and selling his CD's, it's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The labels don't work, now big-chain stores don't work. I guess it's the lesser of 2 evils, when put in this way and with everything in general.
[Edited 3/3/09 11:42am] Absolutely. If you stay on any job, unionized or not, and you feel there are unfit working conditions or you are being mistreated, then why stay? You can always file a grievance with the EEO in your state once you leave. Target is retail, and there's a multitude of retail stores out there, that may offer better pay and have better working conditions and job growth. I don't condone unfit working conditions or mistreatment of employees by any employer, but no one forces an employee to stay. When these workers took the job, they knew there was no union. Abuse in the workplace happens at unionized companies, if people think it don't, then they are kidding themselves. Does Target force their employees to wear chains on their hands and feet? If they feel they are not paid fairly, then isn't it time to seek other employment? Are these employees not "limiting" themselves to the kind of pay they deserve? Job performance is based on yearly evaluations. Merit increases are based on job performance. I know people making over $50,000 and are having a hard time keeping up with bills on non-union jobs, so what makes a Target employee any different? If you limit yourself, then you limit how far you go in life. [Edited 3/3/09 12:09pm] Another point to make, if you have a family and you are struggling to make ends meet, you won't care if you have to clean the dirtiest toilet on God's green earth, you are going to take that job because you want to keep a roof over your head and food on you table for you, your spouse and/or your child(ren). If Target is where you can go to provide, then go and do it. As long as it's not illegal, then go where it's right for you. Prince.org is a cemetery where folks mourn Prince instead of celebrate him and his music. Last time I checked, Prince isn't dead yet.
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Trickology said: Genesia said: Ohhhhh. So this isn't really about unions (even though that's how you framed it). It's about race. (Isn't it always?) And Prince should be embarrassed to be associated with a company that provides jobs for non-white people because...? No, it's about alot of issues regarding this corporation. It doesn't look good from Prince's standpoint. That is what the discussion is about. You can argue the point all you want. But when the smoke clears it still doesn't look ethical. It's a company that relies on intimidation and Slave Labor. I don't know about you but that isn't a good road to traverse for any independent artist. On the contrary - it looks great from Prince's standpoint - and to the public - because most people love Target. It's cool and hip and people feel good shopping there. Nobody (but you, apparently) thinks the people who work there are slaves. | |
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purplecam said: 2elijah said: Absolutely. If you stay on any job, unionized or not, and you feel there are unfit working conditions or you are being mistreated, then why stay? You can always file a grievance with the EEO in your state once you leave. Target is retail, and there's a multitude of retail stores out there, that may offer better pay and have better working conditions and job growth. I don't condone unfit working conditions or mistreatment of employees by any employer, but no one forces an employee to stay. When these workers took the job, they knew there was no union. Abuse in the workplace happens at unionized companies, if people think it don't, then they are kidding themselves. Does Target force their employees to wear chains on their hands and feet? If they feel they are not paid fairly, then isn't it time to seek other employment? Are these employees not "limiting" themselves to the kind of pay they deserve? Job performance is based on yearly evaluations. Merit increases are based on job performance. I know people making over $50,000 and are having a hard time keeping up with bills on non-union jobs, so what makes a Target employee any different? If you limit yourself, then you limit how far you go in life. [Edited 3/3/09 12:09pm] Another point to make, if you have a family and you are struggling to make ends meet, you won't care if you have to clean the dirtiest toilet on God's green earth, you are going to take that job because you want to keep a roof over your head and food on you table for you, your spouse and/or your child(ren). If Target is where you can go to provide, then go and do it. As long as it's not illegal, then go where it's right for you. This subject is going all over the place this is about business ethical business in a Global world with Global markets ...why do people think it's about unions ....they have not had any power since the 70's and will never have power again anywhere in the world....! Those who do not have a union get sacked ...those that do get sacked...it's the business that holds the cards....wake up people ...it's gone global... What the hell is illegal..????.."White Collar" crime is the most underhand crime in the world at the moment it's killing people all over the world ...you really think the bankers give a damn if a office cleaner can't feed the family....the answer is No ethical business is a joke....in a global world it does not work!! it just PR people...  Da, Da, Da....Emancipation....Free..don't think I ain't..! London 21 Nights...Clap your hands...you know the rest..
James Brown & Michael Jackson RIP, your music still lives with us! | |
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Trickology said: 2elijah said: So maybe you should write every non-union employer, and not just focus on Target. I work for a non-union company and I have some of the best benefits an employee can ever imagine. Great healthcare coverage/flex benefits, good salary, just to mention a few. I used to belong to a union when I lived in Florida for anther employer, and they didn't do jackisht for the employees, not to mention, some of the employees there mistreated others.
Secondly, if you're bringing home a paycheck, everyone is a slave to society. So what else ya got? About Target, I was happy they came to my neighborhood. Their prices are just right for the average family, seeing how my community is surrounded by 2 other major malls with very expensive stores, where the average family of 2 kids or more, may find it hard to purchase clothing and other basic items, due to high prices. Not to mention the mom and pop stores, that charge an arm and leg for their items. So if you have an issue with Target, then you should have have aired your opinion about it before 3/2 when the articles were posted about Prince doing business with them. All of a sudden now it becomes a concern to you. Not falling for your BS. [Edited 3/3/09 11:50am] It's not BS, first off. I don't shop at chain stores at all. I support my local businesses. It's a discussion regarding the association of Target and Prince. I am telling you that a corporation that engages in this fashion with this many unethical claims against it, isn't a good look for Prince or Bria Valente. The defense you bring that you have a company that is nonunion and it's wonderful, that isn't rational. That will change when times get rougher in the economic landscape. It's like me saying to a person who is dying for a glass of water "Well, I have water. I don't see a problem. Get yourself some water thirsty person " It's insane. Which is really myopic in the bigger picture. You can be happy as a clam that Target comes to your town. But know the price you are putting on our country regarding the growth and development. We can't live in a society based on lower prices for long. One of these days it's going to come back to haunt you. You are going to see the corporations have their own unions but you don't have any place to run to for protection. Then suddenly you will need that glass of water in that desert. Only thing is, there won't be. That's why it's vital,2elijah. It's a safeguard for society for the only last thing to grasp to. And then you will understand the necessity of community run stores. But not until you have that epiphany. Regarding Prince & Target, quite frankly it should be everything he is against,period. I thank you for your comments though. Well, from my current situation with my employer, it doesn't look like the well will be drying up anytime soon, and no it won't come back to haunt me. I have been employed with this company for over 12 years. Now there were times in between where I felt I deserved a higher raise, and didn't get it, but that higher raise came in time. I am not saying that I could never lose my job, as I am not blind to know that what you have today, you could lose tomorrow. But even with the slump of the economy, I was very lucky, as well as other employees on my job, who received a promotion and a raise in December, so I'm okay. Besides, if I was being mistreated, I would have never stayed with my employer. Anyway, about Target, there are hundreds of thousands of non-union employers and I just find it strange, that out of the blue, you chose to mention Target because you found out that Prince is doing business with them to get his music released. I think you have another agenda. I don't see what Prince or Bria's race have to do with it. If your anger is about low wages, bad working conditions and mistreatment of employees of Target, would that not include "all" the employees of Target and not just a specific group, which it seems you're trying to say in a roundabout way? . Your complaints about Targets ethics reminds me of what some UK orgers said about one of their newspapers, code of ethics, when Prince made an agreement with the Daily Mail on Sunday paper to have free cds of Planet Earth included in their paper. [Edited 3/3/09 18:25pm] Education, the greatest weapon
--- To know about humans, you first have to learn where they came from... http://www.youtube.com/wa...V6A8oGtPc4 http://www.youtube.com/wa...04FKo3adw8 | |
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purplecam said: 2elijah said: Absolutely. If you stay on any job, unionized or not, and you feel there are unfit working conditions or you are being mistreated, then why stay? You can always file a grievance with the EEO in your state once you leave. Target is retail, and there's a multitude of retail stores out there, that may offer better pay and have better working conditions and job growth. I don't condone unfit working conditions or mistreatment of employees by any employer, but no one forces an employee to stay. When these workers took the job, they knew there was no union. Abuse in the workplace happens at unionized companies, if people think it don't, then they are kidding themselves. Does Target force their employees to wear chains on their hands and feet? If they feel they are not paid fairly, then isn't it time to seek other employment? Are these employees not "limiting" themselves to the kind of pay they deserve? Job performance is based on yearly evaluations. Merit increases are based on job performance. I know people making over $50,000 and are having a hard time keeping up with bills on non-union jobs, so what makes a Target employee any different? If you limit yourself, then you limit how far you go in life. [Edited 3/3/09 12:09pm] Another point to make, if you have a family and you are struggling to make ends meet, you won't care if you have to clean the dirtiest toilet on God's green earth, you are going to take that job because you want to keep a roof over your head and food on you table for you, your spouse and/or your child(ren). If Target is where you can go to provide, then go and do it. As long as it's not illegal, then go where it's right for you. Fact is, if an employee feels their employer is not paying them enough or are mistreating them, then why would they stay there, when they can get up off their ass and find employment that pays a decent salary, and have better working conditions Now if Trickology states that Target has its products made in places like India, Indonesia, Guatemala, Mexico, Bangladesh, etc., and is no better than any other American chain store like Walmart that does, then I would need to do more research on my own to find proof. However, unless there was proof that Target is pressing these cds for P, in these counries where this is going on, then without proof, I cannot point fingers. [Edited 3/3/09 13:20pm] Education, the greatest weapon
--- To know about humans, you first have to learn where they came from... http://www.youtube.com/wa...V6A8oGtPc4 http://www.youtube.com/wa...04FKo3adw8 | |
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Dauphin said: OP: I disagree with your assessment of Unions.
A Union's purpose is to provide collective bargaining. When a Business chooses not to accept collective bargaining, then it's choosing to bargain with it's employee on a per person basis. This in reference to pay, promotion, conflict resolution, etc. It's provides a balance of an At-Will Employer and an At-Will Employee. In some cases, it is more efficient to engage in collective bargaining. It may come about because a majority of workers will strike, causing production loss, and more. It's possible to streamline an organization by using collective bargaining to standardize many levels of work flow, compensation, and protection from lawsuits by having consistent conflict resolution. A Union can only exist if the employer deems it necessary to survive. In that way, a business can only exist if the CUSTOMER encourages its existence. Obviously, Target's Non-Union model is sufficient to their bottom line. That allows Target to grow, expand into larger markets, create jobs, and provide competitive prices for products and services. Agreed. I would personally not choose the union option even if it was available to me. I would rather bargain one on one with my superior. In my eyes, who, besides myself, can get me better/more pay? [Edited 3/3/09 13:02pm] -you ain't funky at all, you just a little ol' prude!
Fun Fact: Race car spelled backwards is still Race car http://www.myspace.com/npggirl7 | |
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Trickology said: Genesia said: Ohhhhh. So this isn't really about unions (even though that's how you framed it). It's about race. (Isn't it always?) And Prince should be embarrassed to be associated with a company that provides jobs for non-white people because...? No, it's about alot of issues regarding this corporation. It doesn't look good from Prince's standpoint. That is what the discussion is about. You can argue the point all you want. But when the smoke clears it still doesn't look ethical. It's a company that relies on intimidation and Slave Labor. I don't know about you but that isn't a good road to traverse for any independent artist. I do not agree. My first part-time job as a waitress only paid 5.75 and hour. There are a lot of stores that pay minimum wage. A lot of times they pay that for jobs that are not all that challenging. I do not mean that to put anyone down but the more a person works and learns the more that person can move up in the world. If you owned a large business would you pay 11.00 or more an hour to your employees for pushing carts inside and bagging merchandise? Jobs like these are aimed more at the younger generation part-time employees to give them a starter type job. This is just my outlook on it. I already stated my opinion on the union issue (which to me is NOT an issue). If there is a particular Target store that does not 'recognize' its' employees than that particular store could simply be bad management...not 'bad chain'. And I do not feel that any of this makes it look bad on Prince or Bria. But again, my opinion. This again is not intended to put anyone down, however, honestly those minimum wage type jobs are targeted (I think) towards the newer worker. I never expected anymore than min. wage when I was started my career. I would have been happy making 8.40 or 7.75 an hour at my first job! [Edited 3/3/09 13:02pm] -you ain't funky at all, you just a little ol' prude!
Fun Fact: Race car spelled backwards is still Race car http://www.myspace.com/npggirl7 | |
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Trickology, go on with ya bad self you critical thinking son of a gun.
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