Someone mentioned something below about Princes' only competition being himself. I've been into Prince now for 20 years (i was 12 when i bought When Doves Cry...32 now), and i've only just come to an understanding with the back catalogue.
Prince said something recently about "not just pushing the envolope (back then), i pushed it right off the table", which i totally agree with. From around 1980 to 1989 there was not ONE bad song, the music/lyrics were always challenging and exciting.
The problem for me came in the 90's, when i started waiting for every next Prince album..."this one is gonna be the one", and although some of the stuff was good, i didn't find it to be nearly as challenging and exciting (or baaaad) as the 80's stuff.
But i don't think it really matters. All the stuff is there. It all exists. And he did it. So whatever he gets up to these days i listen to respectfully and thank the stars for ALL the Prince music that exists. I can't imagine music without him.
Just thought i'd share.

That's exactly the way I felt waiting for every new album after "Around The World In A Day". I kept thinking "OK, he's doing his little psychadelic thing, now he's done his little James Brown thing...the next album he is going to go back to being Prince."

As I awaited for the release of "Sign O' The Times", I read that he had fired The Revolution and the next album was going to be Prince doing it all by himself again. I couldn't wait for it's release. I blamed Wendy and Lisa's influence on him for doing retro stuff, and with them gone, I expected to hear Prince again and not The Beatles, James Brown, or Joni Mitchell. To my disappointment, The Revolution was gone, but the retro 1960s/1970s sound was not.

As I awaited "The Black Album", and hearing that Prince was making a return to his R&B roots, I expected it to be like a Prince album back when he was only known in the R&B world....he was Prince, with his own sound, not James Brown's. That album was pulled and "Lovesexy" was released instead. By then, I said "He's gone and he's never coming back". When I finally did hear "The Black Album", that was a real disappointment.

He's done enough good stuff to keep me around but he stopped being Prince in 1985 and started being his musical heros.

Interesting point! I always think "graffiti bridge" stands out as it is rnb but with so much else. A song like "tick tick bang" could only ever be done by Prince, but thats about it!

So my point is, his sexy uptempo's r pure Prince. Even "horny pony" could not be done by anyone else.

vainandy said:

Yeah, that is interesting actually.

vainandy said:

I completely disagree with all of this.
I'm wondering what in the world it means for him to "go back to being Prince".

True artists only compete with themselves.

Prince is absolutely wonderful ...sometimes.

OdysseyMiles said:

Yeah, i disagree with this assessment too. I just think this cat cannot handle artistic growth. If think Prince stopped being Prince after '85 then you are descrediting works like the jaw-dropping songs on Sign, the brilliance of Parade and the sonic spirtiual revelation that is Lovesexy. From Dirty Mind through Lovesexy Prince was on fire. I mean any artist would appreciate being able to come up with one disc as eclectic and forward thinking as Sign O The Times and Prince came up with two.
[Edited 12/16/04 13:23pm]

What is this crazytalk about Prince not being Prince? I must be the only one who loved much of the stuff that he did in the 90's up till today. Stop comparing eras all the time, and just listen to the music with an honest and objective ear. You haters might actually hear something from Prince that you really like, maybe even love.

Every song is different, which is what is great about Prince. In fact, the problem isn't Prince, it's some of you that can't move on. Your loss...

OdysseyMiles said:

vainandy has this thing about "prince from 1985 onwards is not REAL Prince".
I've argued with him that his view is very distorted. How is a guy gonna dismiss "sign O' the Times" "Parade" and "Lovesexy"? Those albums are not "retro" they don't sound like anything that came before.


"Delirous" "horny Toad" "Jack U Off" all sound "retro" by that definition. Totally rockabilly 1950's style. So is that not "Real Prince"? Whatever.....
[Edited 12/16/04 15:09pm]

audience1 said:

In the early years, especially from "Dirty Mind" through "Purple Rain", Prince had a style that was pretty much his own. If you were hearing a new song for the very first time, before the first note was ever sang, you knew it was Prince from the sound of the music alone.

Prince had his influences in those days, but they did not dominate his music. From 1985 till the present, you can hear Prince's musical heros dominating his music. Songs like "Housequake", "Girls and Boys", "La, La, La, He, He, Hee", "Love or $", etc. (don't get me wrong, they are great songs) are dominated by James Brown influence. Other than Prince's voice, these songs sound like James Brown himself trying to make a 1980s comeback. Prince lost his own style, he began copying his musical heros' styles.

On the album "Sign O' The Times", not only did he try to sound like his musical heros, he also tried to look like them. Look at the pictures from that album, the John Lennon glasses and the 1960s looking sweaters. Even before that, on the "Kiss" video...the hip hugger bellbottoms from the 1970s. Prince was no longer moving forward, he was going backwards.

In the early days, Prince was "Prince". He wasn't James Brown, Sly Stone, John Lennon, or Joni Mitchell. If these influences were in his music, they were so far in the background that they weren't noticed. Beginning in 1985, "Prince" was in the background and his influences were out in front.
[Edited 12/16/04 21:39pm]

Prince hasn't really moved on himself. Even in recent songs like "Musicology" and "The Work", these songs are pure James Brown. He was doing it in the late 1980s and he's still doing it. He tries something new with songs like "Loose", "New World", or "The Human Body". He even tries a little hip hop (which I don't like) but he did try something new. The bottom line is, he always goes right back to his retro sound he started in 1985.

Prince criticises his fans for wanting more of his old style. When you think about it, he didn't have it for very long, from "Dirty Mind" through "Purple Rain", that was only 4 years. His "musical heros" immitation has been going on for 19 years.

I'm all for artistic growth, which I saw from "Dirty Mind" through "Purple Rain". Everything afterwards, I have seen as Prince immitating his heros. As far as the "spiritual revelation" and all that jazz, I couldn't give a hill of beans about it...that's more about lyrics. Music and sound catch my ear first, the lyrics catch my ear later. If a song sounds good enough, I could care less if it even has any lyrics.
[Edited 12/16/04 22:21pm]
[Edited 12/16/04 22:23pm]

Today we are going to learn a new word. Can you say James Brown boys and girls?
[Edited 12/16/04 22:29pm]

vainandy said:

What are u talking about? Prince has always worn his influences on his sleeve. Your arguments could be applied to any album in that Dirty Mind to Purple Rain period.
[Edited 12/16/04 23:16pm]

Their influences may be there but they don't take over the record. Prince pretty much had his own style that screamed "Prince".

In songs like "Controversy", "Head", "Let's Work", "Lady Cab Driver", "Sexy Dancer", "Partyup", "Irresistable Bitch", "1999", "D.M.S.R." etc., the sound is distinctively Prince. You recognize it before he sings his first note. He might have been funky like James Brown but he was not trying to immitate him and sound just like him with the horns.

Songs like "Housequake", "La, La, La, He, He, Hee", "Love or $", "Girls and Boys", etc., sound exactly like a James Brown immitation, horns and all.

I've often wondered if Prince even liked what he was doing in the early years or if he was just using synths and modern instruments because he couldn't afford to pay other musicians to play horns, bring in an orchestra, and other things that he started after "Purple Rain" and never left. I've wondered if he was just going through the motions to get to the point to where he could do what he really wanted to do. If he was just going through the motions, he did a damned good job though.

On the other hand, I've wondered if he was just burned out with his own sound to the point that he didn't want to hear it any more. I've been there myself. In the early 1990s, I was heavy into house music and got burned out on it. I only play it now when I have friends over because that's what they want to hear.

But all this talk about Prince is always changing, I don't buy it. Prince tries a new trend for a couple of songs, then he always goes back to a 1960s/1970s sound but he never goes back to the sound he created. That's why I wonder if he even liked it himself or if he got burned out on it.

James Brown???? How exactly does the song Sign O The Times sound like JB? Is there a period of JB i missed? As for It, Ballad Of Dorothy Parker, Play In The Sunshine, If I Was Your Girlfriend, I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man, Strange Relationship....hang on, the WHOLE album.....!?!?
As for Parade....I Wonder U, Under The Cherry Moon, Anotherloverholeinyohead...(Kiss is so obviously a playful joke why even mention it)
Lovesexy....?

Sorry, i don't see JB in these at all. Maybe a bit of obvious influence in Kiss and a few others, but c'mon, to dismiss these as JB rip off's...

As for the earlier stuff...what synth parts are you referring to as horns? His drum and synth programming back then still has people scratching their heads (take another listen to Automatic or Something In The Water..). Do YOU actually like the stuff?
[Edited 12/17/04 6:36am]

No, the whole album was not influenced by James Brown, just tracks like "Housequake" and "It's Gonna Be A Beautiful Night" The rest of the majority of the albums sounds very 1960s influenced and a little 1970s...probably some of his childhood heros influenced it or someone Lisa and Wendy introduced him to. The only thing that sounds like "Prince" and only "Prince" is "It".



"Kiss" is the best thing off this album. "Girls And Boys" sounds like "James Brown Goes To France". Yeah, it's a good song but it's not Prince, it's "Prince's immitation of James Brown". As for the rest of the album, who the hell knows where the influence came for this one....probably Wendy and Lisa. I mean, please, the man had an orchestra and classical music of all things....complete turn-off when dealing with funk and rock!



This one actually is the best of the late 1980s albums. "I Know" sounds a little James Brownish but Prince had gotten a little bit better on this one but still...retro.




I love the synths and drum machines, that's what gave Prince his own sound that no one else could match. Why the hell do you think I'm bitching about the later stuff..."Prince" was gone. I was saying that I wondered if Prince would rather have been using horns instead of the synths back then because when he left them, he hardly ever used them again.
[Edited 12/17/04 7:19am]

vainandy said:

No they don't. That's just a very silly claim.

Vainaindy, I really don't get where you are coming from with these comparisons.
Dude, JB wishes he could have done some of the stuff on Parade and SOTT. "You Got The Look", "I Could Never Take The Place..." JB ain't messin' with that there. Sounds to me like you're attached to a certain period that touched you, and don't want to open your mind to anything else beyond that. You may also be forgetting one important thing: That Prince never intended to play one kind of music and stick to it. He's always wanted to play in different genres, and he's always played whatever he was "into" at the time.

vainandy said:

Could it also be that since everybody and their mama was copying the sound of those synths and drums, there was no point in going back to it? If something's played out, it's played out. I realize that you loved it, but what in the world would Prince look like using the same synth sounds today that he used in 1999? How can one move forward if he does that?

man: "sexy dancer" coulda been done by damn near any funk/disco/whatever group back in 1979...as much as i love "sd", it still needs to be said. it was more or less p tryin to prove that he could be commercial, as was the entire point of the prince album. it was his play on the typical rollerskating/jam-with-heavy-breathing-part joint that was popular back then.

Prince played several genres since the very beginning but he still had his own style in doing so until 1985. As each album was released between 1985 until around 1989, I swore each time that I was through with Prince and then listened to them more and started liking them but still hoped that "Prince" would come back on the next album. Finally, as I said earlier, I gave up and said "Hell, he's not coming back".

People think I am attacking or do not like those albums but I do like them. If I didn't like them, I would not still be buying the albums today. But when people say that Prince has a style all his own on those albums, I'm sorry but he doesn't. Those albums sound more like his influences rather than himself, which was not the case before.

vainandy said:

Well you have a right to your opinion, though I do think your arguments are very flawed. I think Prince actually found his sound from 80-88 and albums like Sign showed just how deep and creative he could be. I just cannot fathom how you can make generalizations about genre-straddling albums that created a new sonic blueprint. I have a very wide musical vocabulary and I'm familiar with all of Prince's influences. I just do not agree with your arguments. Then again, its your opinion so I will have to respect that. I wish I could listen to these so-called "Not the real Prince" albums with your ears.

I've wondered that myself also because everyone else definately was trying to immitate his sound. I just wish he would have kept that sound until around 1989 because it didn't play out until the 1990s came along.

He could never have a hit with that sound today for the same reason he can barely get a hit with the sound he has now...everyone else's music, in general, is dead and stations would never play it. As far "What would he look like still doing synths today", as I said earlier, I wish he had done them until around 1989. The same question could be asked though "What does he look like still doing a retro 1960s/1970s sound today after doing it since 1985?"

Vainandy-

like I said, your point of view is warped. Prince has ALWAYS displayed his influences in his sound, from the very 1st album onwards. He wasn't (as you claim) a lot more original before 1985 than he was afterwards . How many Elvis type rockabilly numbers did he do in the early 80's? Prince also ALWAYS gobbled old styles of music up and spat them out so they sound like "Prince music." So to claim that Prince "stopped being the REAL Prince after 1984 and everything since has been retro" is way off base. You talk about his style of dress during "Parade" and "Sign o The Times" as being retro ( the 70's hip huggers, the 60's John Lennon specs, the bell bottoms, etc) Purple Rain was straight out of some Jimi Hendrix Sgt. Pepper psychadelic dream. The ruffled shirt? You think that was Prince's invention???

Today vainandy is are going to learn a new word. Can you say "transcendence"?

James Brown deserves mad respect, but he doesn't have nearly the range of musical styles that Prince does. James Brown in his wildest dreams couldn't do "AWTWIAD" "Parade" "Sign O the Times" or "Lovesexy". Those albums (maybe more so than any other Prince records) are, contrary to what you claim, actually when Prince began to transcend his influences and musical heroes and when he began to take it to another level. Sure he wasn't doing the straight up the MPLS sound that he had pioneered, but by 1985 everyone else was trying to. Again, Prince went to another level.

*side note*

I said this to a person just yesterday. Prince never abandoned the MPLS sound. Listen to "1+1+1=3". Listen to the synths at the end of "Everlasting Now".

skywalker said:

Excellent Post and points.

[quote]

skywalker said:

Apparently millions of other people haved warped views also because they didn't stick around much longer after "Purple Rain".



Elvis? I certainly don't hear it.




James Brown was only one example of Prince's immitations. Prince basically immitated the music of the 1960s and 1970s as a whole.



You're right. The declining number of fans shows what level he went to...downwards.