EugeneKnight said:

KoolEaze said:

Not sure if you´re addressing me or some other orgers but I´m fully aware of inacurrate songwriting credits in Prince´s career, and Brownmark is one of my favorite bass players ever. However, he quit long after Kiss was released and could´ve voiced his dissatisfaction with how things went down a bit earlier, don´t you think? By the way, Princevault mentions David Z. and the bandmembers of Mazarati as possible uncredited contributors but I see no mention of Brownmark. (Yes, I know that he was behind the Mazarati project, but still....).

It wasn´t my intention to diss Brownmark here, I´m all for having an open discussion. It´s just that in my opinion, it´s often the same people who always have to say something negative in interviews, whereas other former associates who also contributed to certain songs don´t feel the need to do so. But maybe his word were taken out of context, considering it is the New York Post.

This isn't an inaccurate songwriting credit. This is about Prince lying.

Unfortunately this is/was the nature of the music business. I've been in a similar situation where an acclaimed artist hired musicians to record an album with the promise that any songwriting contribution would be fully credited and appropriately compensated. Needless to say, the band got screwed over. The guitarist quit as soon as the album was released. I hung around for a couple more tours on the understanding that management were trying to "sort things out".

We've all gone on to much bigger and, frankly, much better things, but years later we still talk about what we were cheated out of, not because it was a vast sum, but because of the agreement and the trust that were broken. There are some for whom expedience is more important than either being principled or ethics. Prince is one of them. He was happy to kick up dust and write "Slave" on his face to get what he thought he was owed, and yet happily f@%ked over anyone he needed to without the briefest glance in the rearview mirror.

I don't expect this to cut through the wilful ignorance on this board, but if you're a musician - or indeed anyone who doesn't genuflect whenever P's name is mentioned - you're on BM's side.

This was cogently explained and I hope Mark was able to read this.

Thank you.

Unfortunately, you are likely right...cutting through the willful ignorance is difficult. Many act as though they are under a spell. (they are)

[Edited 10/20/20 9:08am]

Am I missing something here.... what 22 Gold albums did he play on???????

Genesia said:

tab32792 said:

Genesia said:

Oh, honey. You were making $2,000/week in the early 80s. $104,000 a year, which is the equivalent of over $275,000/year today. You were in a band - an at-will employee working for someone else. In that kind of situation, you don't get a cut of the profits for everything you do. You agreed to work for a wage - and that's what you got. I'm guessing that $15,000 bonus for the tour was a percentage of your salary - probably 10%, which is pretty standard.

I worked for years as a copywriter for a large corporation. I wrote copy that sold - seriously - MILLIONS of dollars worth of products. Do you think I got a cut of that? No. Why? Because I was an at-will employee who got an annual salary - and a 10% bonus if the company met its goals for the year - for my work.

You had it great for awhile and then you didn't. If you were more talented and had worked to become flawless, rather than "rumbling" so no one could catch you in a mistake, you could have done more with your life. It's way too late to blame Prince for how it turned out.

Exactly!

Make certain to wipe out any nuance related to this situation.

Probably convinced 1 or 2.

[Edited 10/23/20 9:01am]

jackson35 said:

Genesia said:

Oh, honey. You were making $2,000/week in the early 80s. $104,000 a year, which is the equivalent of over $275,000/year today. You were in a band - an at-will employee working for someone else. In that kind of situation, you don't get a cut of the profits for everything you do. You agreed to work for a wage - and that's what you got. I'm guessing that $15,000 bonus for the tour was a percentage of your salary - probably 10%, which is pretty standard.

I worked for years as a copywriter for a large corporation. I wrote copy that sold - seriously - MILLIONS of dollars worth of products. Do you think I got a cut of that? No. Why? Because I was an at-will employee who got an annual salary - and a 10% bonus if the company met its goals for the year - for my work.

You had it great for awhile and then you didn't. If you were more talented and had worked to become flawless, rather than "rumbling" so no one could catch you in a mistake, you could have done more with your life. It's way too late to blame Prince for how it turned out.

you think 2,000 a week was good money at the time considering he had them playing all the time. these dudes never had a break with prince

And The Time was getting like, $125 a Week? F**k singing "Oak Tree". He was payin' Them like They WORKED @ Oak Tree!!! No wonder Jam & Lewis "branched out"!!!

woogiebear said:

jackson35 said:

you think 2,000 a week was good money at the time considering he had them playing all the time. these dudes never had a break with prince

And The Time was getting like, $125 a Week? F**k singing "Oak Tree". He was payin' Them like They WORKED @ Oak Tree!!! No wonder Jam & Lewis "branched out"!!!

LOL

tab32792 said:

Genesia said:

Oh, honey. You were making $2,000/week in the early 80s. $104,000 a year, which is the equivalent of over $275,000/year today. You were in a band - an at-will employee working for someone else. In that kind of situation, you don't get a cut of the profits for everything you do. You agreed to work for a wage - and that's what you got. I'm guessing that $15,000 bonus for the tour was a percentage of your salary - probably 10%, which is pretty standard.

I worked for years as a copywriter for a large corporation. I wrote copy that sold - seriously - MILLIONS of dollars worth of products. Do you think I got a cut of that? No. Why? Because I was an at-will employee who got an annual salary - and a 10% bonus if the company met its goals for the year - for my work.

You had it great for awhile and then you didn't. If you were more talented and had worked to become flawless, rather than "rumbling" so no one could catch you in a mistake, you could have done more with your life. It's way too late to blame Prince for how it turned out.

Exactly!

The other day, I noticed that the homepage of the company I used to work for features copy I wrote last year - before I was laid off due in May due to the COVID-related economic downturn. So they are STILL making money off my work. Think I should go back and ask for a cut?

Genesia said:

tab32792 said:

Genesia said: Exactly!

The other day, I noticed that the homepage of the company I used to work for features copy I wrote last year - before I was laid off due in May due to the COVID-related economic downturn. So they are STILL making money off my work. Think I should go back and ask for a cut?

does your work go on tour or collect royalties?.. or get booked for TV appearances?...is anyone streaming or downloading your work?... why are you comparing your job to the recording industry?.... comparing apples to watermelons

RJOrion said:

Genesia said:

The other day, I noticed that the homepage of the company I used to work for features copy I wrote last year - before I was laid off due in May due to the COVID-related economic downturn. So they are STILL making money off my work. Think I should go back and ask for a cut?

does your work go on tour or collect royalties?.. or get booked for TV appearances?...is anyone streaming or downloading your work?... why are you comparing your job to the recording industry?.... comparing apples to watermelons

Because Mark Brown was hired as an at will employee - the same as I was. Why didn't he negotiate a better deal if he was so great/indispensable? Short answer: Because he was neither.

Mark Brown did not write Kiss - in any way, shape or form. Have you ever heard the original Kiss with just Prince and a guitar? That song was all there from the beginning. Have you heard the Mazarati version? It sounds like ass. No wonder Prince took it back and stripped it down into something worth listening to.

Genesia said:

RJOrion said:

Genesia said:

Because Mark Brown was hired as an at will employee - the same as I was. Why didn't he negotiate a better deal if he was so great/indispensable? Short answer: Because he was neither.

Mark Brown did not write Kiss - in any way, shape or form. Have you ever heard the original Kiss with just Prince and a guitar? That song was all there from the beginning. Have you heard the Mazarati version? It sounds like ass. No wonder Prince took it back and stripped it down into something worth listening to.

i feel u... Mark was no virtuoso bassist and like tab32792 said, im not completely buying the "hustler from The Norfside" tough guy image ol' pouty mouth Mark is trying to portray, either...my original intent in the thread was to point out how quickly MarkBrown got dismissed as a liar, while W&L and Susan and Suzannah and Eric and Alan's tales are held up as gospel... if im keepin it 100, im not ridin for BrownMark against Prince at all...even if Prince did put his ladies size 5 boot heel up in Mark's ass... instead of crying to Lisa, and his Momma and Michael Dean about it, he shouldve handled his business like a man and kept his alleged Norfside dignity...i bet that shit wouldve had a different ending if P wouldve did that shit to Miko Weaver...or even Andre [Edited 10/23/20 14:28pm]

Prince did yell at Miko, told him to f-off and followed him while screaming (on tape, Nude tour) and wanted to 'take it outside'. Miko knew Prince had bodyguards and said so.

Just curious, how would Mark have handled his business under those circumstances? Worst case scenario, he would have been beat up, best case, fired. He likely did try to reason.

You either had to quit or take it, apparently.

He was only 23.

[Edited 10/23/20 19:21pm]

[Edited 10/23/20 19:26pm]

Many of the conversations about Prince's music are really interesting, nuanced and lively.

The sky is the limit. People listen and share. There is really no censoring or too much

heavy handedness.

However, I have noticed that when Prince, the man, is discussed, there is so much less freedom.

When some posters wish to discuss the nuances of Prince as a person, the conversations are kept quite narrow, constricted, harsh etc. by a vocal few. For example, Prince needs to be seen as perfect, always right, amazing in every way. (very one-dimensional)

I have noticed this type of phenomenon happening with Mark Brown. There is little nuance, shades of grey (like real life.) Mark is called a jerk, a-no talent, baby, liar, had nothing to do with the composition of Kiss, ad nauseum.

This type of thinking has been applied to Andre, Jesse, Bobby, Wendy, Lisa, Mark, Neal, Chaka, some members of 3EG, Barbarella, Susannah. It's the same rigid thinking that promotes Prince as a one-man music-making machine who never needed input from anyone.

Another pet peeve of mine: Anyone who had any type of conflict with Prince was wrong, period, ie. Levi Seacer, Miko, Rosie, Jill, Mark, Jam, Lewis, Vanity, Morris and more.

I am actually a fan but I find it so boring. I have to tip-toe around knowing exactly who is going to fly into a rage if Prince is portrayed as less than a demi-god. What does this rigidity do to others who might stop by to share their feelings, knowledge, insight on the Org? This kind of stuff causes people to drift away as most intelligent people do not wish to be told what and how to think by a vocal few.

The Org is not what was and I think it is a direct result of this behavior. It does not serve his memory or legacy.

There is another board who's name I won't divulge, with the same rigid following. You are allowed one speed; complete adoration only...cultish. They have dwindled to about 10-15 members. (not all are rigid, but the majority are)

Prince was a complex guy who deserves some real discussion, for God's sake.

[Edited 10/23/20 23:33pm]

I wanted to illustrate what I mean by what I considered excessive posting by the vocal few. It was the Neal Karlen thread. This person posted 68 times.

I fully support spirited conversation, but this amount of posting was an attempt to control the narrative. Anyone who could find some agreement with Neal was targeted by this person.

No one came close to this amount of posting. It felt like harrassment and many people took the time to re-explain the reasons for their stance to this person to no avail.

We all have a right to our opinions and if another poster wishes to disagree once, twice or three times, that is within normal limits. But to come at you every time you post with an argumentative tone is unacceptable.

KoolEaze said:

rednblue said:

I'm happy for all things music-related to be discussed. Sometimes the discussion brings out people's reflections that an occasion may not have been Prince's, or an associate's, best moment.

Always extra happy to hear about the flip side , so thanks for that, too.

Would you be willing to share some thoughts connected to your last sentence about newfound respect?

above th e

ee..I wanted to add something to my previous post but I think I deleted a long reply. it. I was thinking about friends and bandmembers such as André Cymone, Morris Hayes, Sonny, Jill Jones or even Apollonia , or certain celebrities or other musicians, for example Duff Mc Kagan. Always very respectful.

KoolEaze, thank you SO much! Am SO sorry, as I should have told you that I did see your first post rather late at night, before it got lost. LOVED your response, and really appreciated your generosity.

Been a bit discouraged about discussions about Prince and associates in past few days, so have turned away, but I should have thanked you right away. Your response is such a great counterbalance to all the frustration and anger that can come out in associate thread discussion.

I love reading and listening to vast majority of Prince's words. Same for associates. Such an amazing genius supported and furthered by such an amazing artistic enterprise.

Do appreciate your mention of SO MANY people. Not generally a big fan of over-the-top sparkles (asked my husband (been together for 32 years) to skip the engagement ring), but in the Prince world I love that so many people created so many facets that purple art has the most beautiful sparkle ever!

Regarding Andre Cymone and Morris Hayes, just the first two people you mentioned, I've been lucky to hear/read a lot from them. Both of those men put out so many down-to-earth thoughts, fun and funny stuff, and positive sentiments/projects out into the world. So grateful!

Margot said:

Many of the conversations about Prince's music are really interesting, nuanced and lively.

The sky is the limit. People listen and share. There is really no censoring or too much

heavy handedness.

However, I have noticed that when Prince, the man, is discussed, there is so much less freedom.

When some posters wish to discuss the nuances of Prince as a person, the conversations are kept quite narrow, constricted, harsh etc. by a vocal few. For example, Prince needs to be seen as perfect, always right, amazing in every way. (very one-dimensional)

I have noticed this type of phenomenon happening with Mark Brown. There is little nuance, shades of grey (like real life.) Mark is called a jerk, a-no talent, baby, liar, had nothing to do with the composition of Kiss, ad nauseum.

This type of thinking has been applied to Andre, Jesse, Bobby, Wendy, Lisa, Mark, Neal, Chaka, some members of 3EG, Barbarella, Susannah. It's the same rigid thinking that promotes Prince as a one-man music-making machine who never needed input from anyone.

Another pet peeve of mine: Anyone who had any type of conflict with Prince was wrong, period, ie. Levi Seacer, Miko, Rosie, Jill, Mark, Jam, Lewis, Vanity, Morris and more.

I am actually a fan but I find it so boring. I have to tip-toe around knowing exactly who is going to fly into a rage if Prince is portrayed as less than a demi-god. What does this rigidity do to others who might stop by to share their feelings, knowledge, insight on the Org? This kind of stuff causes people to drift away as most intelligent people do not wish to be told what and how to think by a vocal few.

The Org is not what was and I think it is a direct result of this behavior. It does not serve his memory or legacy.

There is another board who's name I won't divulge, with the same rigid following. You are allowed one speed; complete adoration only...cultish. They have dwindled to about 10-15 members. (not all are rigid, but the majority are)

Prince was a complex guy who deserves some real discussion, for God's sake.

[Edited 10/23/20 23:33pm]

This. All of this.

Way upthread, I pointed out that most or all of the people who posted as if to suggest they can 100 percent deny what Brownmark said about a promise of co-writing credit and royalties...they do not know what went down firsthand. Period. It is an unreasonable portrayal of what nearly all people know. Comparing apples to oranges to mangoes, etc, is totally OK for discussion, but the logic that such comparisons mean that most all people have 100 percent, direct knowledge of what went down regarding whether there was a promise of co-writing credit and royalties is false. That is an illogical and unreasonable stance toward Brownmark. Would have had more to say in this thread, but was discouraged because of experiences in other threads like those described by Margot.

Of course we all have to be careful about being too naive and realize that "associates" in our own lives may be near-evil. All the more so if there is money, brilliance, beauty, etc. that people may wish to "take" (from), in the various senses of the word. Sadly, we all know that youth is one of those things from which people can look to take. There are people who wish to take "youth" (taking in multiple senses of the word, and thinking both daughters and sons, FWIW), so I as a parent, and fellow parents, know what it's like to not only cultivate independence, but also be watchful.

IMO, power differentials are also very relevant in life. Power almost always makes exploitation easier. The exploitative music industry has a lot of power. One artist may have a lot more power than another artist. And so on.

Vast majority of human relationships are shades of gray. For example, the same two people can greatly honor one another at some times, and badly wrong one another at others. Plus all the in-betweens that don't rise to "greatly" or "badly."


IMO, portrayals like those described in the comment above, often offered by those who did not know Prince, were probably one of the more harmful, even dangerous, aspects of celebrity.

Especially for a feeling, thoughtful person like Prince.

Prince has himself described a tendency and striking ability/instances of completely turning away and not looking back on relationships that he had valued and were important in his life. Prince has wondered aloud more than once along the lines of "what if everyone else was gone and there was only me left." Prince has voiced this sentiment in connection with stark breaking of ties with people.

IMO, there is a healthy degree of human independence, but there is also a healthy degree of human interdependence. If (when picturing Prince's world), fans fixate on godlike or other cartoonish extremes with regard to these questions, what does that do to an artist?

[Edited 10/24/20 11:32am]

This is an interesting concept which I often see here.

Splitting is a term used in psychiatry to describe the inability to hold opposing thoughts, feelings, or beliefs. Some might say that a person who splits sees the world in terms of

black and white-all or nothing.

It is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together the dichotomy of both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole

On the other board (shall remain nameless), there is intense splitting re: Prince's ex-wives, (Esp. M1),

and girlfriends, (some are exempt). It's as though he needed protection from these powerful,

evil women. There is little/no acknowledgement of Prince's role in these relationships.

How can we talk about Prince without looking at nuance? In any relationship, there are contributions made by both parties.

I bet the truth about Prince and Mark lies somewhere in the middle, in the 'grey'.

Why don't we start there? It is where all of our relationships live.

I´m glad to know that you got to read it. I posted late at night and on a messy keyboard in the dark and later realized how much I had deleted while trying to edit, but I´m happy that you liked what I posted. I didn´t know how to bring back the paragraphs that got lost.

And thank you so much for your kind words. I´m especially happy because I see that you clearly understood what I was trying to say in my post.

Thank you.

rednblue said:

KoolEaze said:

above th e

ee..I wanted to add something to my previous post but I think I deleted a long reply. it. I was thinking about friends and bandmembers such as André Cymone, Morris Hayes, Sonny, Jill Jones or even Apollonia , or certain celebrities or other musicians, for example Duff Mc Kagan. Always very respectful.

KoolEaze, thank you SO much! Am SO sorry, as I should have told you that I did see your first post rather late at night, before it got lost. LOVED your response, and really appreciated your generosity.

Been a bit discouraged about discussions about Prince and associates in past few days, so have turned away, but I should have thanked you right away. Your response is such a great counterbalance to all the frustration and anger that can come out in associate thread discussion.

I love reading and listening to vast majority of Prince's words. Same for associates. Such an amazing genius supported and furthered by such an amazing artistic enterprise.

Do appreciate your mention of SO MANY people. Not generally a big fan of over-the-top sparkles (asked my husband (been together for 32 years) to skip the engagement ring), but in the Prince world I love that so many people created so many facets that purple art has the most beautiful sparkle ever!

Regarding Andre Cymone and Morris Hayes, just the first two people you mentioned, I've been lucky to hear/read a lot from them. Both of those men put out so many down-to-earth thoughts, fun and funny stuff, and positive sentiments/projects out into the world. So grateful!

Again, BM was a hired employee. He probably got more $$ then he deserved and he is STILL being paid. I have no sympathy for any of these ASSociates. None!