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Thread started 01/21/18 11:05am

MotownSubdivis
ion

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Why wasn't Ice Cream Castle a bigger success?

The album peaked at #24 on the pop charts and it's highest-scoring single ("Jungle Love") just made the Top 20.

Obviously the album wasn't going to have the runaway success that Purple Rain enjoyed but it feels as though Ice Cream Castle underachieved. That said, the album was successful on the black charts (peaking at a much higher #3 with "Ice Cream Castles" and "Jungle Love" hitting #11 and #6, respectively) which was always the Time's core audience but am I the only one who feels that it should've had more crossover appeal?

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Reply #1 posted 01/21/18 11:07am

2freaky4church
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SNIP - bait

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #2 posted 01/21/18 11:24am

PeteSilas

MotownSubdivision said:

The album peaked at #24 on the pop charts and it's highest-scoring single ("Jungle Love") just made the Top 20.

Obviously the album wasn't going to have the runaway success that Purple Rain enjoyed but it feels as though Ice Cream Castle underachieved. That said, the album was successful on the black charts (peaking at a much higher #3 with "Ice Cream Castles" and "Jungle Love" hitting #11 and #6, respectively) which was always the Time's core audience but am I the only one who feels that it should've had more crossover appeal?

i loved the album, i think it was about as good, maybe not quite as good as the debut but close. Probably Morris' drug problems and the Time's internecine issues had something to do with it. I do remember Jungle Love being a huge hit, Ice Cream Castles was one that I could have seen crossing over better with it's less funky sound. The band was done by the end of the filming for Purple Rain so there wasn't really any way to push anything. Most people say Morris' drug habits were the culprit, Prince has said that Jesse Johnson wanted to be a star (which was true) some people blamed Prince for the breakup which he denied, later he seems to have been relieved by them falling apart because he considered them real competition. I've heard something about jellbean Johnson having a near fight with Prince too, no one liked him back then but it does not sound like he was at fault for the band falling apart at that point, aside from the fact that he yanked jimmy and terry, (which he later denied doing and he seemed to mean as just a ploy to scare them but it backfired and they really left).

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Reply #3 posted 01/21/18 11:38am

SoulAlive

The interesting thing is,when this album came out,The Time had already broken up.I like this album,but it didn't impress me the way the two previous Time albums did.Something was missing.I think most of us will agree that the second album,What Time Is It?,is the best Time album.

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Reply #4 posted 01/21/18 11:54am

PeteSilas

SoulAlive said:

The interesting thing is,when this album came out,The Time had already broken up.I like this album,but it didn't impress me the way the two previous Time albums did.Something was missing.I think most of us will agree that the second album,What Time Is It?,is the best Time album.

i understand that people love the second album, i never got into it though. I would put the first one up with just about any funk album ever but the second one just didn't get me.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #5 posted 01/21/18 1:10pm

SoulAlive

PeteSilas said:

SoulAlive said:

The interesting thing is,when this album came out,The Time had already broken up.I like this album,but it didn't impress me the way the two previous Time albums did.Something was missing.I think most of us will agree that the second album,What Time Is It?,is the best Time album.

i understand that people love the second album, i never got into it though.

eek how could you not get into songs like "777-9311" and "The Walk"? That album is a masterpiece.

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Reply #6 posted 01/21/18 1:30pm

PeteSilas

SoulAlive said:

PeteSilas said:

i understand that people love the second album, i never got into it though.

eek how could you not get into songs like "777-9311" and "The Walk"? That album is a masterpiece.

well, i didn't, i know how highly regarded it is. i thought the first one was near perfect.

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Reply #7 posted 01/21/18 2:08pm

Rhastus

Frankely its not that good compared to the rest of their albums. The lead off single was the worst song on there. That being said, it did piggy back off of Purple Rain's sucess. It was a plantnium album which in todays market would have been a huge sucess, but back then was much more common place. Jungle Love and The Bird got the shit played out of them on the top 40 station I listened to when I was a kid. They had some battle of the songs thing every night and Jungle Love held the record for being on there the longest. Later when the Bird was on there and nothing could beat it, they had to bring Jungle Love out of retirement to defeat it.

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Reply #8 posted 01/21/18 2:23pm

PeteSilas

Rhastus said:

Frankely its not that good compared to the rest of their albums. The lead off single was the worst song on there. That being said, it did piggy back off of Purple Rain's sucess. It was a plantnium album which in todays market would have been a huge sucess, but back then was much more common place. Jungle Love and The Bird got the shit played out of them on the top 40 station I listened to when I was a kid. They had some battle of the songs thing every night and Jungle Love held the record for being on there the longest. Later when the Bird was on there and nothing could beat it, they had to bring Jungle Love out of retirement to defeat it.

my drawers was pretty good, the song with the chinese guy (Prince) was pretty funny, it was abbreviated, but i loved that album. It might have been a little more band originated than the first one or two, i think jesse johnson did jungle love.

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Reply #9 posted 01/21/18 2:31pm

SoulAlive

Rhastus said:

Frankly its not that good compared to the rest of their albums.

I agree."Jungle Love" is a good song,but it's kinda repetitive."Chili Sauce" is obvious filler and the slow jam "If The Kid Can't Make You Come" is only slightly amusing.The album's best song is "My Drawers" imo.

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Reply #10 posted 01/21/18 2:39pm

Rhastus

My Drawers is one of the most underated songs in their catalog. I love that song. Jungle Love is great too. The Bird is a fun song, but I've heard it way too much at this point. I really don't like Ice Cream Castles. The two skits really weigh it down. Sadly most people only know Jungle Love and the Bird when the majority of their catalog is better.

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Reply #11 posted 01/21/18 3:08pm

PeteSilas

Rhastus said:

My Drawers is one of the most underated songs in their catalog. I love that song. Jungle Love is great too. The Bird is a fun song, but I've heard it way too much at this point. I really don't like Ice Cream Castles. The two skits really weigh it down. Sadly most people only know Jungle Love and the Bird when the majority of their catalog is better.

ice cream castles didn't fit the time really, i think it might have fit some of P's other acts better, not really funky enough, the title was an ode to his biggest white influence, Joni Mitchell, who had the line "ice cream castles in the air" in the song both sides. the song if the kid can't make you come might seem like filler but it's still got some of the best piano vamping in the minneapolis sounding style that we love on wax.

[Edited 1/21/18 15:14pm]

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Reply #12 posted 01/21/18 3:12pm

PeteSilas

dupe

[Edited 1/21/18 15:13pm]

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Reply #13 posted 01/21/18 3:22pm

Rhastus

Ice Cream Castle was the first Time album I ever bought. I thought it was great....until I bought the other two albums. I like it, I just like the others better. I've always ment to ask Morris why he looks so pissed off in the Ice Cream Castles video, but I always forget.

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Reply #14 posted 01/21/18 5:19pm

woogiebear

Not the BEST Time Album (That would be What Time Is It), but most popular. Would've been funkier if "Chocolate" did indeed make the Album instead of Chili Sauce (shoulda been a B-Side). My Drawers is the BEST Song on the Album, as well as Jungle Love. And on The Bird, whoever mixed the Album (I'm gonna guess Jamie Starr) turned Jesse's Guitar solo DOWN!!! I have the 1st Avenue version WITH Jesse's solo!! But to tell the truth, I rocked the hell outta that Album!!!

cool cool cool cool cool cool cool

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Reply #15 posted 01/21/18 5:52pm

SoulAlive

woogiebear said:

Would've been funkier if "Chocolate" did indeed make the Album instead of Chili Sauce

I agree! I wonder why a strong,catchy song like "Chocoalte" didn't make the album,but a weak,filler track like "Chili Sauce" is on there.

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Reply #16 posted 01/21/18 7:20pm

SoulAlive

Jesse has said Prince wanted The Time to record "Do Yourself A Favor".Prince's demo was recorded in 1982 but since it wasn't used for What Time Is It,I think it would have fit perfectly on Ice Cream Castles.I would have liked the album better if the tracklist looked like this:

Side 1-

Ice Cream Castles

My Drawers

Chocolate

Side 2-

Jungle Love

Do Yourself A Favor

The Bird

no slow jams,but that's OK smile I don't think "If The Kid Can't Make You Come" is very good anyway

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Reply #17 posted 01/22/18 5:09am

laurarichardso
n

The band had broken up when the record came out and Morris was high as hell. Take a look at this horrible interview he did on David Lettermen.

Is he doing a bad job promoting the film as well as himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk7ru4vV9bw

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Reply #18 posted 01/22/18 8:11am

MotownSubdivis
ion

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Good answers being posted so far.

Still reading through the PR Sessions book and skipping ahead a bit, Prince himself said that the plan was for there to be a battle of the bands setup for the PR project. He and the Revolution would embark on the PR tour; they would be performing in some city one night while The Time and Apollonia 6 would be performing in another city somewhere else on their own respective tours. Had The Time not broken up, it would have been a spectacle to behold and no doubt a massive moneymaker.

As for Ice Cream Castle, the track list as short as it is shouldn't have any filler but it's got a pointless skit and an overly long slow song that drags it down. "Ice Cream Castles" isn't as funky as your average Time song but I think they still pulled it off and ahowed that they had a little bit of range as a group. Altogether, if Prince's original plan panned out then I think ICC would've performed more impressively; it would have at least landed higher in the Top 20 and riding the overall PR wave might have hit the Top 10.
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Reply #19 posted 01/22/18 8:15am

PeteSilas

MotownSubdivision said:

Good answers being posted so far. Still reading through the PR Sessions book and skipping ahead a bit, Prince himself said that the plan was for there to be a battle of the bands setup for the PR project. He and the Revolution would embark on the PR tour; they would be performing in some city one night while The Time and Apollonia 6 would be performing in another city somewhere else on their own respective tours. Had The Time not broken up, it would have been a spectacle to behold and no doubt a massive moneymaker. As for Ice Cream Castle, the track list as short as it is shouldn't have any filler but it's got a pointless skit and an overly long slow song that drags it down. "Ice Cream Castles" isn't as funky as your average Time song but I think they still pulled it off and ahowed that they had a little bit of range as a group. Altogether, if Prince's original plan panned out then I think ICC would've performed more impressively; it would have at least landed higher in the Top 20 and riding the overall PR wave might have hit the Top 10.

a tour with the time would have been epic, i wonder how prince would have handled it, he didn't like them opening for him on the 1999 tour very much.

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Reply #20 posted 01/22/18 8:17am

PeteSilas

laurarichardson said:

The band had broken up when the record came out and Morris was high as hell. Take a look at this horrible interview he did on David Lettermen.

Is he doing a bad job promoting the film as well as himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk7ru4vV9bw

I didn't think he looked high, i'll watch it again. Pepe Willie had said, some time, maybe a year or two later, when Morris was trying to sort his life out, that Morris' mom was still trying to run things and getting interviews on Letterman when Morris had problems paying the rent. How quickly things change.

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Reply #21 posted 01/22/18 8:34am

laurarichardso
n

PeteSilas said:

laurarichardson said:

The band had broken up when the record came out and Morris was high as hell. Take a look at this horrible interview he did on David Lettermen.

Is he doing a bad job promoting the film as well as himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk7ru4vV9bw

I didn't think he looked high, i'll watch it again. Pepe Willie had said, some time, maybe a year or two later, when Morris was trying to sort his life out, that Morris' mom was still trying to run things and getting interviews on Letterman when Morris had problems paying the rent. How quickly things change.

It is well known that he had a cocaine problem. In fact it was disucssed by the one and only Alan Leeds who has no problem putting people's business in the streets.

He said while PR was being made it was his job to bring Morris to the set everyday. He said he would often find him at this house were you could see that rightous partying had been going on.

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Reply #22 posted 01/22/18 8:36am

PeteSilas

laurarichardson said:

PeteSilas said:

I didn't think he looked high, i'll watch it again. Pepe Willie had said, some time, maybe a year or two later, when Morris was trying to sort his life out, that Morris' mom was still trying to run things and getting interviews on Letterman when Morris had problems paying the rent. How quickly things change.

It is well known that he had a cocaine problem. In fact it was disucssed by the one and only Alan Leeds who has no problem putting people's business in the streets.

He said while PR was being made it was his job to bring Morris to the set everyday. He said he would often find him at this house were you could see that rightous partying had been going on.

ya i know he had a problem, just never thought it came through on that particular interview. I'll have to watch it again though. i just thought he was just in character.

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Reply #23 posted 01/22/18 8:39am

PeteSilas

i always thought one of the more ironic things morris said was that he didn't like acting like a clown because it "wasn't the way black people acted". He was a pretty good comedien.

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Reply #24 posted 01/22/18 12:55pm

TrivialPursuit

Rhastus said:

Frankely its not that good compared to the rest of their albums. The lead off single was the worst song on there. That being said, it did piggy back off of Purple Rain's sucess. It was a plantnium album which in todays market would have been a huge sucess, but back then was much more common place. Jungle Love and The Bird got the shit played out of them on the top 40 station.


I totally second this. ICC just wasn't nearly as strong as anything off their first two records. It's a real snoozer. Frankly, if you took off Jesse's "Jungle Love", and "The Bird", people would have ignored it.

I'm really surprised Prince brushed off The Time & A6 during that time, especially with such a huge project coming out. You would think he would want every strong out there to support the overall scheme of the movie, album sales, etc. But A6 is lackluster at best, as is ICC. You could probably compile things from both records into one decent album based on the strongest songs off of both.

For me, the title track is lame as fuck. People can argue the contrary, and that is fine for them. I get that some folks dig it. I don't. It sounds like two or three ideas, and could have been whittled down to something more interesting and engaging.

"My Drawers" grew on me, and it's funky.

"Chili Sauce" while fun, it's a throwaway filler song. It's the movie on record. Save it for a B-side.

I don't get "If The Kid Can't Make You Come" because it sounds more like a song for Prince to sing, especially with the name The Kid.

You couldn't get away from the two singles anywhere. Every radio station was doing their own edits on how to trim down "The Bird", cut out cuss words on either, and keep folks engaged and listening without it droning into the brain. (Of course, radio is run by white folks, so....)

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Reply #25 posted 01/22/18 12:56pm

BEAUGARDE

They broke up because Morris wanted to be in control of The Time but it was Prince's bottom line, same as Vanity 6 & The Family. The lead singers wanted to their own thing that's all

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Reply #26 posted 01/22/18 1:37pm

Genesia

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hmmm

Because who wants to spend ten bucks on an album that only has four songs on it?

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Reply #27 posted 01/22/18 1:40pm

laurarichardso
n

Genesia said:

hmmm

Because who wants to spend ten bucks on an album that only has four songs on it?

I did and so did about 500,000 other people since it went Gold. This was a very popular RnB album and never really had a chance on the pop chart. Maybe some of you are too young to know this but no pop station is playing "If The Kid Can't Make You Come" or My Drawers"

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Reply #28 posted 01/22/18 2:04pm

PeteSilas

BEAUGARDE said:

They broke up because Morris wanted to be in control of The Time but it was Prince's bottom line, same as Vanity 6 & The Family. The lead singers wanted to their own thing that's all

several factors, morris was coked out, jesse wanted to be the star, jim and terry had been gone. I think it's same thing that many bands break up over, who gets what attention and how much money. I've heard that with all the problems the time had, with Prince, jesse johnson turned around and didn't pay his band when he went solo.

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Reply #29 posted 01/22/18 2:25pm

SoulAlive

TrivialPursuit said:


I totally second this. ICC just wasn't nearly as strong as anything off their first two records. It's a real snoozer. Frankly, if you took off Jesse's "Jungle Love", and "The Bird", people would have ignored it.


I agree.It's just not a strong album.Their second album What Time Is It is a classic....it's fun,extremely funky,playful and wild.It's everything that a Time album should be.Ice Cream Castles pales in comparison.

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