Strawberrylova123 said:

Vashtix said:

Strawberrylova123 said:

Prince gave his heart to many women that he loved, he loved jill, sheila, susan, susannah and vanity for different reasons. People forget that sheila had a connection for decades also.

I they have been mentioned but none were Vanity. NO one can forget about Sheila she has been riding that Prince was my man train full force since he transitioned.

And it doesn't look like Sheila will be getting off that purple train anytime soon.

[Edited 2/23/17 15:39pm]

TOB said:

Anyone, again, becoming frustrated over the loss of the Vanity and Morris Day thread?

Having to re-post, re-argue and re-answer... everything I'd say would now be out of context... frustrating.

I have been given no reason why the thread was removed so I have to blindly edit myself, second guess and have to think about being careful what I say or post so no one has a reason to complain.

Was it images of the unpublished pages? Was it the image of her and Prince in heaven with the words "Find the Angels" picture that Denise created and published in her book? Was it the magazine articles, the picture from Actors as Artist?

With out specifics to understand the complaint anything and everything I post could prove to be offensive or controversial.

Plus, I'm beginning to get some grief from unexpected places that want to see and or approve my post before I post (not going to happen, not in this life).

Something is up...

Hi TOB As I mentioned before there are many people who are interested in Prince's source of inspiration - he's a musical wonder and will be studied for years to come and quite frankly, history will tell the story of who the important sources of his inspiration were. I'm awaiting his book, hopefully it will clarify a few things or maybe it will continue the mystery.

But in the meantime, the Vanity story is very powerful as there are so many parallels between them (timelines, artistically, creatively etc) so many things that it's very difficult to be written off as coincidence. And you know you're onto a story and a pretty massive audience when Beyonce promoted Vanity and Prince after he died throughout her tour. Just look at the size of the Vanity threads when Prince died (every other thread paled in comparison). Honestly, if Prince.org doesn't value you and what you have to share (for free and first hand I might add) I'd find another forum. There's plenty of people who are interested in this story (primarily because it's so hidden but at the same time it seems so obvious). Why not pursue a film deal or a book? I'm sure the dedicated Vanity followers here will help you with anything they've found that jumps out that's of interest.

SunnyGirl8 said:

TOB said:

Anyone, again, becoming frustrated over the loss of the Vanity and Morris Day thread?

Having to re-post, re-argue and re-answer... everything I'd say would now be out of context... frustrating.

I have been given no reason why the thread was removed so I have to blindly edit myself, second guess and have to think about being careful what I say or post so no one has a reason to complain.

Was it images of the unpublished pages? Was it the image of her and Prince in heaven with the words "Find the Angels" picture that Denise created and published in her book? Was it the magazine articles, the picture from Actors as Artist?

With out specifics to understand the complaint anything and everything I post could prove to be offensive or controversial.

Plus, I'm beginning to get some grief from unexpected places that want to see and or approve my post before I post (not going to happen, not in this life).

Something is up...

Hi TOB As I mentioned before there are many people who are interested in Prince's source of inspiration - he's a musical wonder and will be studied for years to come and quite frankly, history will tell the story of who the important sources of his inspiration were. I'm awaiting his book, hopefully it will clarify a few things or maybe it will continue the mystery.

But in the meantime, the Vanity story is very powerful as there are so many parallels between them (timelines, artistically, creatively etc) so many things that it's very difficult to be written off as coincidence. And you know you're onto a story and a pretty massive audience when Beyonce promoted Vanity and Prince after he died throughout her tour. Just look at the size of the Vanity threads when Prince died (every other thread paled in comparison). Honestly, if Prince.org doesn't value you and what you have to share (for free and first hand I might add) I'd find another forum. There's plenty of people who are interested in this story (primarily because it's so hidden but at the same time it seems so obvious). Why not pursue a film deal or a book? I'm sure the dedicated Vanity followers here will help you with anything they've found that jumps out that's of interest.

Sunnygirl! Co-signing to everything you've said.

purplegirl00 said:

SunnyGirl8 said:

Hi TOB As I mentioned before there are many people who are interested in Prince's source of inspiration - he's a musical wonder and will be studied for years to come and quite frankly, history will tell the story of who the important sources of his inspiration were. I'm awaiting his book, hopefully it will clarify a few things or maybe it will continue the mystery.

But in the meantime, the Vanity story is very powerful as there are so many parallels between them (timelines, artistically, creatively etc) so many things that it's very difficult to be written off as coincidence. And you know you're onto a story and a pretty massive audience when Beyonce promoted Vanity and Prince after he died throughout her tour. Just look at the size of the Vanity threads when Prince died (every other thread paled in comparison). Honestly, if Prince.org doesn't value you and what you have to share (for free and first hand I might add) I'd find another forum. There's plenty of people who are interested in this story (primarily because it's so hidden but at the same time it seems so obvious). Why not pursue a film deal or a book? I'm sure the dedicated Vanity followers here will help you with anything they've found that jumps out that's of interest.

Sunnygirl! Co-signing to everything you've said.

Hey Purplegirl! Hope all's good in your world! Sunny

luvgirl said:

NotACleverName said:

Thank you tigerlilyluv....I appreciate your explanation. I agree that each woman in Prince's life should be allowed the opportunity to celebrate and share all aspects of their relationship. For the record, I don't wish to argue.

One more thing....Susannah left Prince. He did not kick her out. She moved out in December of 1986 (I believe) for good due to his "indiscretions". There might have been a few previous break ups/make ups. The following links will provide some insight on the break up/"Wally"/music inspired by Susannah.

https://books.google.com/...mp;f=false

https://books.google.com/...mp;f=false


Excerpts from "I Would Die 4 U" by Toure and "Prince: The Man and His Music" by Matt Thorne (I own this book, interesting info!).

EDIT: revised links to book excerpts
[Edited 2/22/17 15:15pm]

Hi NotAClevername. Not trying to start a Susannah verses Vanity war, and hope it doesn't come off that way. I respect the relationship Susannah had with Prince. I just wanted to point out to you, that the most fan popular book Possessed, and the most respected DMSR, states that Prince did indeed asked Susannah to move out, and Susan Rogers was actually one of the person to confirm it.

Page 111 Possessed-

Prince relationship with Susannah continued to be poisoned by his voracious appetite for other women. His callous treatment of Susannah was also upsetting to Karen Krattinger. Who by now had become general manager of Prince's production company. Susannah was one of her best friends and still Krattinger was ordered to perform odious task like installing her in an apartment after Prince banished her from his home. "Prince put me in the middle of his relationship way too much. I saw him throwing away and hurting the most wonderful women I felt he would ever know." Prince made little secret with his dalliance of numerous other women. While one night stands were a frequent occurrence steady companions were Jill Jones and Sheila E.

Page 196 DMSR-

He was also living with Susannah. She was wearing his ring. He loved her and didn't want to lose her but he didn't think he could carry out his commitment. Prince rented a condo in the Lake Calhoun district of Minneapolis and persuaded Susannah to live there. "He decided he couldn't live with Susannah" said Rogers. "He wasn't ready for a full term committed relationship. It sounds like such a simple way to describe such a complex thing, the truth is that he just wasn't ready. And he realized that at the time. He wanted her at the time. He wanted her in his life, but he didn't want her at his elbow, right beside him all the time. He couldn't go to sleep and wake up with the same person every day and share everything on that level. Susannah was very unhappy about it." After she moved out Prince started going out with other women and it was obvious that his relationship with Susannah would not survive. Without being discreet, he dated aspiring actress Troy Beyer and Sherilyn Flynn, Jackie ST Clair and Carol Davis.

In regards to your other post to show the discrepancy with some of the songs that SM suspects are written about her in the article you linked, it has been known among some fans and it also states in the vault, that Prince was inspired to write Nothing Compares To You about Sandy Scipioni, his personal assistant in 1980, who had to leave suddenly after her father's death. http://www.princevault.co...mpares_2_U
And Strange Relationship was initially recorded in 1982, http://www.princevault.co...The_Times, so Susannah Melvoin, who hadn't started dating Prince Until around Vanity's departure in August of 83 couldn't have been the original inspiration. Although I do believe Prince could have resurrected and dedicated it to her as well. People get things wrong about his songs, just like Prince says, and even Susan Rogers can also attest to that by getting The Beautiful Ones wrong. I'm sure Prince wrote many songs for SM as he did for Vanity, but the only time I think we can honestly say it's a fact, is when we hear it from the masters mouth, as in The Beautiful Ones about Vanity, and Forever In My Life, about Susannah Melvoin. I think all other songs are debatable and fair game...
[Edited 2/23/17 6:29am]

anangellooksdown said:

NotACleverName said:

luvgirl said:

Hi NotAClevername. Not trying to start a Susannah verses Vanity war, and hope it doesn't come off that way. I respect the relationship Susannah had with Prince. I just wanted to point out to you, that the most fan popular book Possessed, and the most respected DMSR, states that Prince did indeed asked Susannah to move out, and Susan Rogers was actually one of the person to confirm it.

Page 111 Possessed-

Prince relationship with Susannah continued to be poisoned by his voracious appetite for other women. His callous treatment of Susannah was also upsetting to Karen Krattinger. Who by now had become general manager of Prince's production company. Susannah was one of her best friends and still Krattinger was ordered to perform odious task like installing her in an apartment after Prince banished her from his home. "Prince put me in the middle of his relationship way too much. I saw him throwing away and hurting the most wonderful women I felt he would ever know." Prince made little secret with his dalliance of numerous other women. While one night stands were a frequent occurrence steady companions were Jill Jones and Sheila E.

Page 196 DMSR-

He was also living with Susannah. She was wearing his ring. He loved her and didn't want to lose her but he didn't think he could carry out his commitment. Prince rented a condo in the Lake Calhoun district of Minneapolis and persuaded Susannah to live there. "He decided he couldn't live with Susannah" said Rogers. "He wasn't ready for a full term committed relationship. It sounds like such a simple way to describe such a complex thing, the truth is that he just wasn't ready. And he realized that at the time. He wanted her at the time. He wanted her in his life, but he didn't want her at his elbow, right beside him all the time. He couldn't go to sleep and wake up with the same person every day and share everything on that level. Susannah was very unhappy about it." After she moved out Prince started going out with other women and it was obvious that his relationship with Susannah would not survive. Without being discreet, he dated aspiring actress Troy Beyer and Sherilyn Flynn, Jackie ST Clair and Carol Davis.

In regards to your other post to show the discrepancy with some of the songs that SM suspects are written about her in the article you linked, it has been known among some fans and it also states in the vault, that Prince was inspired to write Nothing Compares To You about Sandy Scipioni, his personal assistant in 1980, who had to leave suddenly after her father's death. http://www.princevault.co...mpares_2_U
And Strange Relationship was initially recorded in 1982, http://www.princevault.co...The_Times, so Susannah Melvoin, who hadn't started dating Prince Until around Vanity's departure in August of 83 couldn't have been the original inspiration. Although I do believe Prince could have resurrected and dedicated it to her as well. People get things wrong about his songs, just like Prince says, and even Susan Rogers can also attest to that by getting The Beautiful Ones wrong. I'm sure Prince wrote many songs for SM as he did for Vanity, but the only time I think we can honestly say it's a fact, is when we hear it from the masters mouth, as in The Beautiful Ones about Vanity, and Forever In My Life, about Susannah Melvoin. I think all other songs are debatable and fair game...
[Edited 2/23/17 6:29am]

Thanks for the insight luvgirl....I, too, do not wish to begin a "Susannah vs. Vanity" debate.

But, just to be clear, she, in fact, left him. Regardless of their cohabitation status, they were still a couple and she unequivocally ended the relationship in December of 1986 by leaving MN and moving back to LA. See the following from Posessed: The Rise and Fall of Prince; Chapter 9 Alone: Wally:

The dispute over "Crystal Ball" left Prince frustrated and depressed, and to make matters worse, his relationship with Susannah Melvoin was spinning out of control for the last time. In the months since the couple had concluded their brief attempt at cohabitation in Prince's Chanhassen [Minn.] home, their fighting had continued, taking an emotional toll on both of them.

In December 1986, Susannah finally decided she had had enough; she packed her things and returned to Los Angeles' San Fernando Valley, joining Wendy and Lisa. "You can only subject yourself to so much, unless you're self-abusive, and she had a lot of respect for herself," observed [tour manager] Karen Krattinger. "He probably would have kept her back and forth on a yo-yo forever."

Also, I was only referencing the fact that Prince wrote "If I was Your Girlfriend" for Susannah....I did not debate whether or not he wrote TBO or even NC2U for her. I believe tigerlilyluv brought those songs into the conversation. As far as those two, who knows? Although, I do believe he wrote others, such as Forever In My Life, for/about her. Again, referencing the book "Prince: The Man and His Music by Matt Thorne.

Hope this clears things up regarding my pov on the break up of Prince and Susannah and songs related to their relationship.

tigerlilyluv said:

anangellooksdown said:

Y'all...I've been reading this past 24 hours a transcript a friend sent me of a not-yet-published book written by someone who was extremely close to our man...basically he was a hopeless romantic

How could you have not shared this with me ? shhesh

Reciprocity said:

NotACleverName said:

tigerlilyluv said: If this is your viewpoint, then ALL the information about Prince and Vanity/Denise in the four (or five) threads on this forum, that has not been confirmed by Prince himself (only relayed by TOB), is speculation. How do we know Prince gave her $2,500 to purchase a clutch? And does anyone truly think that because Vanity's favorite color was lavender that somehow influenced Prince's choice of purple? I am beginning to see a pattern on these Vanity/Denise threads. If someone presents a differing opinion, as it relates to the consensus of the "core" posters' opinion, they are challenged to the nth degree....why is that? There were other women in Prince's life. A few were very long-term, 10 years, in fact! And he wrote songs about these women. Why is that challenged so vehemently?

Nothing was challenged. Just discussion. We can discuss- it is not that big a deal

It's fine to talk about the lyrics and songs and influences. I also notice that arguments are attempted where there are none. There is no ill will on my part. We can discuss like adult people.

All things are subjective aren't they?

None of our discussions are set in stone and that is the fun of it.

I do not take offense to Prince buying a purse for Vanity nor if he wrote songs with Sussanah. I believe Prince lived with and was engaged to Susannah. That does not take away from him buying a purse for Vanity.

Prince had MANY women. I was just stating that he probably used aspects of his harem to get his lyrics. That is not a challenge. It is just discussing what may have been the case. It is a simple differing of thought and there has been no pattern except for tension to attempt to start arguments when there are none.

As I said his actions with one woman should not be an affront to the other. It is how it was.

Vanity is allowed to have her memories not trashed and the Sussanah is allowed to have hers and all the others are allowed to have theirs too and I am not pissing on any of them. The memories are theirs.

Exactly... and exactly my point of frustration.

Our discussion had moved passed the childish issue of who is The Most Important Woman In Prince Life.

The only challenged is in defense of my intent, as the other thread reveals an evolution in my understanding of what and how much was not known about Denise and Vanity.

Specific questions of my intent have been ask and answered in great detail. In which I also spelling out my initial of sharing what I have and know about Denise, and wanting to learn more about "Vanity;" a person I thought I never met and didn't know.

I have shared letters, poetry, photographs, unpublished portions of books, many personal stories that I have witness, or were told to me by DeBorah or Denise.

The more I understood and realized what was not known about Denise my intent (admitted agenda) increasingly morphed towards revealing Denise as a creative artist, painter, lyricist, poet, inventor, writer, etc... and that she was a rising Star, having worked (paid) as a lyricist, as an artist/painter, as an international model, and as an actor in 3 films and was being considered for a part in Ron Howard's movie "Cocoon."

All before meeting Prince.

When she met Prince was also a major part of the discussion.

The initial question of the Vanity and Morris Day thread ask who was "Him" with regard a line in The Beautiful Ones.

I offered my opinion, suggesting that it was Adam Ant, and gave my reasons for this opinion based upon both something Denise wrote and something she told me. Not bothering to mention DeBorah having mentioned something about it over twenty 20 years ago regarding a white fur jacket with black spots that had belonged to Adam Ant.

My response also included that Prince knew about a prior relationship, that Denise traveled with a portrait she had painted, that Prince accused and believed it to be of that person (which it was), and that I believed Denise did it for a specific reason.

Discussing their Love Hate relationship and how it all started... so on and so forth...

Now here we are, back to me explaining that my intent isn't to elevate Vanity as Prince's most important relationship or that he was hers.

As her brother most of what I read angers me, having to come to terms with things that happened 30 years ago (10 years before I knew her), and wanting to invite others to know her, wishing they could remember her as I did.

I can't change or erase the impact Prince has had on Denise's life, his significance to her is blatantly clear.

However, the other thread seemed to linger and remain fixed, orbiting around what was happening in their lives soon before and after they met as being significant and the catalysis for what influenced their discisions and the trajectory of their lives. Her significance to his beginning became a mystery worth analyzing.

As to say:

What would the movie Purple Rain have been about if they had never met?

What would have happen if he had found other woman he'd named "Vagina" to lead a sexy girl group called the "Hookers" at that point in his career?

After this point he was established... and she was part of it.

If they remained in touch throughout the years would be understandable.

Now, to the question initial questions posed to Tigerlilyluv:

How do we know Prince gave her $2,500 to purchase a clutch? And does anyone truly think that because Vanity's favorite color was lavender that somehow influenced Prince's choice of purple?

Is this questioning me or Denise? If you are question Denise I have no response for you, that's your option.

In my defense I would normally I say, I can only tell you what Denise wrote or told me, but there happens to be a video of her telling my sons about that purse in that picture.

TOB,

Vashtix said:

Vashtix said:

TOB,

You have spoken my frustration when discussing anything remotely related to Denise/Vanity . It appears that it is always seen as an offense and something that must be removed and definitely not discussed.

I never knew about her artwork being sold in shows and reading the articles giving legit receipts that she was well on her come up before she met Prince.She had her own style, talent and drive way before she met Mr. Nelson. The information you shared gave credence to who she was as a total artist and not just a pretty face with a sexy figure who could grind it out onstage. It gets old when peeps lump Vanity in the same pile as the other protogees. She was the total package and smart.
Thank you for that.

Once any real discussion gets underway someone will chime in to derail ,to assure the thread gets pulled. No one in this thread was discussing any book but Denise's. It is nice for others to write their books but a thread can be started for their endeavors. The mention of these transcripts/books in this thread is clearly to have this pulled as the other thread was pulled.

The mere existence of the things you have shared coupled with what happened last year at the Piano and Mic Tours and Prince attending Denise's funeral casts doubt on the soulmate aspectof his relationship with some of his old mates. They are trying to sell this soulmate stuff since his death. Denise never to my knowledge never went down that path of soulmate status. However, things shared here ( Please note I am just explaining the simplistic reasoning, imo) clearly threaten that soulmate status some want to hone and sell to the public since Prince's transition.

It is as simple as that to me and yes it is silly to me. You cannot trash someone else's reality or memories because they get in the way of how you wish to market or present something to the masses. You cannot rewrite history; eventually it falls apart when you try. There needs to be a level of acceptance of Denise as a real woman who wrote of her real life and not some make believe ideal. She was not writing her transcripts thinking it would get in the way of what others wanted to market decades later. Sweet soul she was, good and bad , deserves to be respected in death and let her story be told. It is getting tiresome the way people try to hush it and discount it for it getting in the way of a narrative they want to hock.

Hi Vashtix - I completely agree.

One gets the impression though, that if TOB was commercialising her story he would not be encountering the problems he is on prince.org as that would take time (to write/shoot a film etc) and it would mean that the other players would not have their stories/marketing messed with in the way that it is now by him openly sharing things. It doesn't make it right, he should be able to share her story as he sees fit, but you can understand the other sides concern.

[Edited 2/27/17 5:24am]

SunnyGirl8 said:

Hi Vashtix - I completely agree.

One gets the impression though, that if TOB was commercialising her story he would not be encountering the problems he is on prince.org as that would take time (to write/shoot a film etc) and it would mean that the other players would not have their stories/marketing messed with in the way that it is now by him openly sharing things. It doesn't make it right, he should be able to share her story as he sees fit, but you can understand the other sides concern.

[Edited 2/27/17 5:24am]

I will never understand censorship in any form. And there really wasn't anything to be censored.

PennyPurple said:

SunnyGirl8 said:

Hi Vashtix - I completely agree.

One gets the impression though, that if TOB was commercialising her story he would not be encountering the problems he is on prince.org as that would take time (to write/shoot a film etc) and it would mean that the other players would not have their stories/marketing messed with in the way that it is now by him openly sharing things. It doesn't make it right, he should be able to share her story as he sees fit, but you can understand the other sides concern.

[Edited 2/27/17 5:24am]

I will never understand censorship in any form. And there really wasn't anything to be censored.

I agree. Vanity threads have been shut before TOB's. When someone wants to moderate what TOB is saying all it does is show the weight/importance of what is being discussed and the desire to block that being aired.

SunnyGirl8 said:

PennyPurple said:

I will never understand censorship in any form. And there really wasn't anything to be censored.

I agree. Vanity threads have been shut before TOB's. When someone wants to moderate what TOB is saying all it does is show the weight/importance of what is being discussed and the desire to block that being aired.

Yep, I agree.

Not to veer off topic but just wanted to mention today is one year since her Homegoing Service.

Reciprocity said:

luvgirl said:

Tigerlilyluv said: Tigerlilyluv: You are correct, In the books below it states as you've said from Susan Rogers. PNV: I've read DMSR and Possessed and I agree that both books look favorable on SM and are belittling to Vanity. You can tell just from the highlighted statement below by her best friend and Prince general manager Karen Krattinger, that the contributors to the book held SM in high regards as many of them befriended her. I didn't mind that they spoke highly of Susannah. She seems like a decent person and seemed to have loved Prince very much. I'm not surprised her friends would gush about her. It's the fact that the contributors tore Vanity down without a kind word towards her that bugs me. I don't Blame Susannah though, I blame the authors for not finding better research where Vanity was concerned. I read these books because I like to have the knowledge of what's being said, but I always weigh the fields, and take everything with a grain of salt. Page 111 Possessed- Prince relationship with Susannah continued to be poisoned by his voracious appetite for other women. His callous treatment of Susannah was also upsetting to Karen Krattinger. Who by now had become general manager of Prince's production company. Susannah was one of her best friends and still Krattinger was ordered to perform odious task like installing her in an apartment after Prince banished her from his home. "Prince put me in the middle of his relationship way too much. I saw him throwing away and hurting the most wonderful women I felt he would ever know." Prince made little secret with his dalliance of numerous other women. While one night stands were a frequent occurrence steady companions were Jill Jones and Sheila E. A tense and unpleasant dynamics was emerging between Susannah and Sheila who encountered each other not infrequently as a result of their intersecting musical and personal relationship with Prince. Page 196 DMSR- He was also living with Susannah. She was wearing his ring. He loved her and didn't want to lose her but he didn't think he could carry out his commitment. Prince rented a condo in the Lake Calhoun district of Minneapolis and persuaded Susannah to live there. "He decided he couldn't live with Susannah said Rogers. He wasn't ready for a full term committed relationship. It sounds like such a simple way to describe such a complex thing, the truth is that he just wasn't ready. And he realized that at the time. He wanted her at the time. He wanted her in his life, but he didn't want her at his elbow, right beside him all the time. He couldn't go to sleep and wake up with the same person every day and share everything on that level. Susannah was very unhappy about it." After she moved out Prince started going out with other women and it was obvious that his relationship with Suspected would not survive. Without being discreet, he dated women aspiring actress Troy Beyer and Sherilyn, Jackie ST Clair and Carol Davis. [Edited 2/23/17 5:56am]

I get the feeling they felt Vantiy was not good enough for Prince. She was this pretty Black girl (I know she was mixed) but to them it comes across as if they felt Vanity was just an annoyance and not "good" in contrast to Sussannah. Vanity however was more like Prince than the others and was his true mirror and we saw that over the decades.

You can hear that same sentiment with people wanting to discuss nothing but drug use, men she had sex with while with Prince even, and witchcraft.

They can try to minimize her to that but her life was so much more and when those discussions begin they are abruptly ended.

She had a career in acting and modeling prior to Prince, ,during and after Prince. She was not to be denied. Their dislike for her is evident to this day when they discuss Vanity. They will remain jealous of a ghost because their dear, sweet Prince is with Vanity. God allowed them to finally have time alone without the army of haters. She got her supernatural hook up. Who gets the last say?

Listen, no one is "minimizing" her to ANYTHING! I, for one, had a question(s) that I was curious about concerning Denise Katrina Matthews. And this thread happens to be about her, and since I (we) have TOB right here with us in our midst, I thought I'd shoot the question to him concerning something SHE HERSELF talked about on the Joan Rivers show. He answered the question. I commented on it and that was THAT! Sorry if that wasn't something that YOU wanted to hear/know about. The only thing I can suggest is let it go in one ear and out the other. It is what it is.

TOB said:

Reciprocity said:

Nothing was challenged. Just discussion. We can discuss- it is not that big a deal

It's fine to talk about the lyrics and songs and influences. I also notice that arguments are attempted where there are none. There is no ill will on my part. We can discuss like adult people.

All things are subjective aren't they?

None of our discussions are set in stone and that is the fun of it.

I do not take offense to Prince buying a purse for Vanity nor if he wrote songs with Sussanah. I believe Prince lived with and was engaged to Susannah. That does not take away from him buying a purse for Vanity.

Prince had MANY women. I was just stating that he probably used aspects of his harem to get his lyrics. That is not a challenge. It is just discussing what may have been the case. It is a simple differing of thought and there has been no pattern except for tension to attempt to start arguments when there are none.

As I said his actions with one woman should not be an affront to the other. It is how it was.

Vanity is allowed to have her memories not trashed and the Sussanah is allowed to have hers and all the others are allowed to have theirs too and I am not pissing on any of them. The memories are theirs.

Exactly... and exactly my point of frustration.

Our discussion had moved passed the childish issue of who is The Most Important Woman In Prince Life.

The only challenged is in defense of my intent, as the other thread reveals an evolution in my understanding of what and how much was not known about Denise and Vanity.

Specific questions of my intent have been ask and answered in great detail. In which I also spelling out my initial of sharing what I have and know about Denise, and wanting to learn more about "Vanity;" a person I thought I never met and didn't know.

I have shared letters, poetry, photographs, unpublished portions of books, many personal stories that I have witness, or were told to me by DeBorah or Denise.

The more I understood and realized what was not known about Denise my intent (admitted agenda) increasingly morphed towards revealing Denise as a creative artist, painter, lyricist, poet, inventor, writer, etc... and that she was a rising Star, having worked (paid) as a lyricist, as an artist/painter, as an international model, and as an actor in 3 films and was being considered for a part in Ron Howard's movie "Cocoon."

All before meeting Prince.

When she met Prince was also a major part of the discussion.

The initial question of the Vanity and Morris Day thread ask who was "Him" with regard a line in The Beautiful Ones.

I offered my opinion, suggesting that it was Adam Ant, and gave my reasons for this opinion based upon both something Denise wrote and something she told me. Not bothering to mention DeBorah having mentioned something about it over twenty 20 years ago regarding a white fur jacket with black spots that had belonged to Adam Ant.

My response also included that Prince knew about a prior relationship, that Denise traveled with a portrait she had painted, that Prince accused and believed it to be of that person (which it was), and that I believed Denise did it for a specific reason.

Discussing their Love Hate relationship and how it all started... so on and so forth...

Now here we are, back to me explaining that my intent isn't to elevate Vanity as Prince's most important relationship or that he was hers.

As her brother most of what I read angers me, having to come to terms with things that happened 30 years ago (10 years before I knew her), and wanting to invite others to know her, wishing they could remember her as I did.

I can't change or erase the impact Prince has had on Denise's life, his significance to her is blatantly clear.

However, the other thread seemed to linger and remain fixed, orbiting around what was happening in their lives soon before and after they met as being significant and the catalysis for what influenced their discisions and the trajectory of their lives. Her significance to his beginning became a mystery worth analyzing.

As to say:

What would the movie Purple Rain have been about if they had never met?

What would have happen if he had found other woman he'd named "Vagina" to lead a sexy girl group called the "Hookers" at that point in his career?

After this point he was established... and she was part of it.

If they remained in touch throughout the years would be understandable.

Now, to the question initial questions posed to Tigerlilyluv:

How do we know Prince gave her $2,500 to purchase a clutch? And does anyone truly think that because Vanity's favorite color was lavender that somehow influenced Prince's choice of purple?

Is this questioning me or Denise? If you are question Denise I have no response for you, that's your option.

In my defense I would normally I say, I can only tell you what Denise wrote or told me, but there happens to be a video of her telling my sons about that purse in that picture.

It’s ridiculous that people want you to recant your intent over and over when you’ve already said and explained your evolution in it.

Also, we all know that Prince had many women with a revolving door; easy come and easy go.

Who knows who was the most important? It’s a question that everyone fights over, it's dumb.

I’m good for an engaging, meaty conversation with debate, exploration. I like to rule situations and people in/ out depending on evidence.

When someone poses an idea or theory, I like to test it.

For example, you posed an interesting question to ponder about Prince’s like for purple in relation to what Denise said about what the purple hews on the purse and what it represented.

When I think of art, I want to know what or who inspired the pieces of work. Knowing whether Prince’s love of purple was from the beginning of his career or inspired later by someone or something is important since it became one of his motifs for his iconic movie and rest of his career. Did Prince like purple before meeting Denise? If so, is there evidence in songs, dress, something he said in an interview, etc.?

You mentioned the movie. Purple Rain was said to be semi-autobiographical, IF that’s the case, what parts or elements of it were true? Did Prince have the idea for it BEFORE he met Denise?

Was the storyline of the relationship crafted and Prince played it out with Denise or vice versa? Or did it evolve with her leaving him?

It was also said that she was involved in scripting- which may or may not be true. The launch of Purple Rain was a pivotal moment in Prince’s career. It’s what put him on the map so to speak and these questions are pertinent.

SunnyGirl8 said:

Vashtix said:

TOB,

You have spoken my frustration when discussing anything remotely related to Denise/Vanity . It appears that it is always seen as an offense and something that must be removed and definitely not discussed.

I never knew about her artwork being sold in shows and reading the articles giving legit receipts that she was well on her come up before she met Prince.She had her own style, talent and drive way before she met Mr. Nelson. The information you shared gave credence to who she was as a total artist and not just a pretty face with a sexy figure who could grind it out onstage. It gets old when peeps lump Vanity in the same pile as the other protogees. She was the total package and smart.
Thank you for that.

Once any real discussion gets underway someone will chime in to derail ,to assure the thread gets pulled. No one in this thread was discussing any book but Denise's. It is nice for others to write their books but a thread can be started for their endeavors. The mention of these transcripts/books in this thread is clearly to have this pulled as the other thread was pulled.

The mere existence of the things you have shared coupled with what happened last year at the Piano and Mic Tours and Prince attending Denise's funeral casts doubt on the soulmate aspectof his relationship with some of his old mates. They are trying to sell this soulmate stuff since his death. Denise never to my knowledge never went down that path of soulmate status. However, things shared here ( Please note I am just explaining the simplistic reasoning, imo) clearly threaten that soulmate status some want to hone and sell to the public since Prince's transition.

It is as simple as that to me and yes it is silly to me. You cannot trash someone else's reality or memories because they get in the way of how you wish to market or present something to the masses. You cannot rewrite history; eventually it falls apart when you try. There needs to be a level of acceptance of Denise as a real woman who wrote of her real life and not some make believe ideal. She was not writing her transcripts thinking it would get in the way of what others wanted to market decades later. Sweet soul she was, good and bad , deserves to be respected in death and let her story be told. It is getting tiresome the way people try to hush it and discount it for it getting in the way of a narrative they want to hock.

Hi Vashtix - I completely agree.

One gets the impression though, that if TOB was commercialising her story he would not be encountering the problems he is on prince.org as that would take time (to write/shoot a film etc) and it would mean that the other players would not have their stories/marketing messed with in the way that it is now by him openly sharing things. It doesn't make it right, he should be able to share her story as he sees fit, but you can understand the other sides concern.

[Edited 2/27/17 5:24am]

Truth. Recent proteges are promoting projects, ex-lovers, and other ex's are launching love story books. Everyone is in marketing mode "selling" their products. Here's TOB telling this story and somehow it threatens all of the aformentioned. If there is truth, no one should worry. Keep it moving.

purplegirl00 said:

SunnyGirl8 said:

Hi Vashtix - I completely agree.

One gets the impression though, that if TOB was commercialising her story he would not be encountering the problems he is on prince.org as that would take time (to write/shoot a film etc) and it would mean that the other players would not have their stories/marketing messed with in the way that it is now by him openly sharing things. It doesn't make it right, he should be able to share her story as he sees fit, but you can understand the other sides concern.

[Edited 2/27/17 5:24am]

Truth. Recent proteges are promoting projects, ex-lovers, and other ex's are launching love story books. Everyone is in marketing mode "selling" their products. Here's TOB telling this story and somehow it threatens all of the aformentioned. If there is truth, no one should worry. Keep it moving.

Of course they are.....the 1 year aniversary is approaching and this is the first time in years that some are gonna use this golden opportunity to bask in Prince's shine and make $$$$$$ at the same time.

Goddess4Real said:

luvgirl said:

NotACleverName said:

Thanks for the insight luvgirl....I, too, do not wish to begin a "Susannah vs. Vanity" debate. But, just to be clear, she, in fact, left him. Regardless of their cohabitation status, they were still a couple and she unequivocally ended the relationship in December of 1986 by leaving MN and moving back to LA. See the following from Posessed: The Rise and Fall of Prince; Chapter 9 Alone: Wally: The dispute over "Crystal Ball" left Prince frustrated and depressed, and to make matters worse, his relationship with Susannah Melvoin was spinning out of control for the last time. In the months since the couple had concluded their brief attempt at cohabitation in Prince's Chanhassen [Minn.] home, their fighting had continued, taking an emotional toll on both of them. In December 1986, Susannah finally decided she had had enough; she packed her things and returned to Los Angeles' San Fernando Valley, joining Wendy and Lisa. "You can only subject yourself to so much, unless you're self-abusive, and she had a lot of respect for herself," observed [tour manager] Karen Krattinger. "He probably would have kept her back and forth on a yo-yo forever." Also, I was only referencing the fact that Prince wrote "If I was Your Girlfriend" for Susannah....I did not debate whether or not he wrote TBO or even NC2U for her. I believe tigerlilyluv brought those songs into the conversation. As far as those two, who knows? Although, I do believe he wrote others, such as Forever In My Life, for/about her. Again, referencing the book "Prince: The Man and His Music by Matt Thorne. Hope this clears things up regarding my pov on the break up of Prince and Susannah and songs related to their relationship.

Yes, I agree that she eventually ended the relationship. I was referring to when he broke the engagement and moved her out, deciding that he did not want to go through with the commitment of marriage or live together anymore, and had Karen Kattinger find her someplace else to live. I know Susannah did continue to see him after that, but by that time Prince didn't seem to be trying anymore, openly seeing other women without even being discreet. But yes, she did end up leaving him in the very end. All of this is according to the books only, obviously not by my own knowledge. I know nothing for certain... And neither does all the books we read. I'm sure, there are a lot of things we don't know about, that went down between Prince, Susannah/Vanity, and all his women... He didn't necessarily make it easy for any of them. [Edited 2/25/17 5:41am]

Breaking off an engagement, moving her out and openly dating other women. That is Prince saying by by Susannah.

luvgirl said:

Goddess4Real said:

Of course they are.....the 1 year aniversary is approaching and this is the first time in years that some are gonna use this golden opportunity to bask in Prince's shine and make $$$$$$ at the same time.

If it's anyone's story I want to hear, Its DENISE'S... (The good and the bad...) And with the amount of traffic her threads receives, it appears that a lot of other people do too! Her story from TOB point of view doesn't come off like some of the sleaze that is out there. This was an account from her heart. Through all the good and the bad, she still loved and respected Prince, and that's what makes it all the more meaningful. TOB is telling her story without even trying to make a profit off of us. It feels right, and what I think Denise would have wanted... TOB should be commended.. [Edited 3/2/17 18:07pm]

Luvgirl - I am in that boat with you. I want to know more about Denise. She is such an important part of Pop Culture and I want to know about her. I appreciated TOB bringing to us Denise as DD Summes, as a sibling, as a true artist who was more than someone who could create a character and ride it it fame. I like hearing of her as the Evangelist too. I want to know where she preached in the world, testimonies from people she helped. I do not want the tit for tat stuff prompted because peeps do not like she had a life long friendship with Prince on a deeper level than originally thought.

I am hoping the conversation about Denise can continue. I do not want it censored or deleted again.

We are not alone. We are just a few who post.