The other day, I happened upon some never-before-seen (by me, at least) footage in the form of a film made in conjunction with the first Madhouse album, and if my eyes didn't deceive me, John L. Nelson (Prince's father) was an extra in the film (playing pool). It got me thinking: what if the Madhouse project was Pince's way of paying homage to his father? Are the songs (on at least the first album) inspired by or borrowed from the Prince Nelson band for which he is named? Thoughts, anyone?

It is his father in the pool game scene from 'A Twisted Tale About Two Bums Living The Hard Life'.

I don't think there's any evidence of any more of a significant link between the album and his father.

langebleu said:

It is his father in the pool game scene from 'A Twisted Tale About Two Bums Living The Hard Life'.

I don't think there's any evidence of any more of a significant link between the album and his father.

Music aside, what's your opinion of the film itself? I think of films like this and the original Apollonia 6 Sex Shooter video, and almost get a stronger sense of his perspective than a lot of his catalogue.

jazzz said:

probably, the music on the Madhouse album was much more inspired by 70's jazz funk than by the straight ahead jazz Prince's father used to play. On the other hand, Prince may have want to show his father that he could play improvised music as well. Or did he want to make an impression on one of his musical fathers, Miles Davis, with who he had contact during the Madhouse period? Freud could have explained this to us...

Interesting. So if not his father directly, a father figure.

I don't think P recording 8 and 16 had anything to do with his dad or Miles or whatever really. The Loring Park Session from 1977 was already jazz-funk: it was in his blood.

.

On a side note I've never managed to see that Madhouse Hard Life film I remember it was on YT but removed b4 I could see or d/l it and ever since I've never seen it anywhere online again

I don't think there is any

the connections are the Family-Parade era Junk Music

databank said:

I don't think P recording 8 and 16 had anything to do with his dad or Miles or whatever really. The Loring Park Session from 1977 was already jazz-funk: it was in his blood.

.

On a side note I've never managed to see that Madhouse Hard Life film I remember it was on YT but removed b4 I could see or d/l it and ever since I've never seen it anywhere online again

Hi databank,

For a self-proclaimed MPLS archiver, you should do your homework a little better!

The history of Madhouse has been described in a number of sources, most recently the Wax Poetics article from 2012. Some quotes from that article:

"You can chase Prince’s jazz ambitions and the origins of Madhouse down several avenues. Son of jazz pianist John L. Nelson, Prince was born with improvisation, syncopation, and swing in his blood. ..."

"[Around 1985/1986] Prince began listening more closely to Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, and John Coltrane, and whatever he absorbed seeped its way into his music. “They would just turn the tape on and play,” he [Alan Leeds] continues. “It was really quite improvisational. Out of that came some riffs. Somebody would come up with a lead line or a melody, and Prince would say, ‘That’s good, keep playing that,’ and they’d improvise on it. Those were the Flesh sessions. The Flesh stuff was really hot, and I think the Madhouse idea grew out of that.”"

"If [Clarence] Clemons nudged Prince in the direction of adding Leeds to the Paisley Park family to begin with, none other than Miles Davis seems indirectly responsible for Madhouse and the steps that led up to the 8 album."

Of course, 70's jazz funk has always been in Prince blood, since that was the music he started playing as a kid. I had already stated that in my first post on this topic. However, I really tend to believe the vision of people like Eric and Alan Leeds regarding the origins of Madhouse (they were there when it happened!)... but please believe your in own version if you prefer to do that. There's always room for parallel truths in the P-universe (-:

Best regards,

jazzz (what's in a name...)

jazzz said:

databank said:

I don't think P recording 8 and 16 had anything to do with his dad or Miles or whatever really. The Loring Park Session from 1977 was already jazz-funk: it was in his blood.

.

On a side note I've never managed to see that Madhouse Hard Life film I remember it was on YT but removed b4 I could see or d/l it and ever since I've never seen it anywhere online again

Hi databank,

For a self-proclaimed MPLS archiver, you should do your homework a little better!

The history of Madhouse has been described in a number of sources, most recently the Wax Poetics article from 2012. Some quotes from that article:

"You can chase Prince’s jazz ambitions and the origins of Madhouse down several avenues. Son of jazz pianist John L. Nelson, Prince was born with improvisation, syncopation, and swing in his blood. ..."

"[Around 1985/1986] Prince began listening more closely to Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, and John Coltrane, and whatever he absorbed seeped its way into his music. “They would just turn the tape on and play,” he [Alan Leeds] continues. “It was really quite improvisational. Out of that came some riffs. Somebody would come up with a lead line or a melody, and Prince would say, ‘That’s good, keep playing that,’ and they’d improvise on it. Those were the Flesh sessions. The Flesh stuff was really hot, and I think the Madhouse idea grew out of that.”"

"If [Clarence] Clemons nudged Prince in the direction of adding Leeds to the Paisley Park family to begin with, none other than Miles Davis seems indirectly responsible for Madhouse and the steps that led up to the 8 album."

Of course, 70's jazz funk has always been in Prince blood, since that was the music he started playing as a kid. I had already stated that in my first post on this topic. However, I really tend to believe the vision of people like Eric and Alan Leeds regarding the origins of Madhouse (they were there when it happened!)... but please believe your in own version if you prefer to do that. There's always room for parallel truths in the P-universe (-:

Best regards,

jazzz (what's in a name...)

I don't know why you feel the need to be so passive-agressive while, as far as I can recollect, we've never been in a feud before on this website. I am certainly no such thing as a "self-proclaimed" anything, I have no contractual obligation to remember every little single fact even though I like to do research about things I'm passionate about such as Prince's music, and there is no such thing as "my own version" of anything either.

I had no recollection of that quote from the Wax article, even though I'd read it at the time.

However yes I was aware of the fact that Prince grew-up hearing jazz thru his folks and that Eric exposed him to more later. I intended to reply the OP and your first post, in the sense that I don't think prince wanted to "pay homage" or to "impress" either his father or Miles Davis when he recorded his instrumental albums. Obviously both were influencial and so, then, were Coltrane and Ellington and everything else he heard in his life and this is how I understand the quote above about Miles being "inderectly responsible", i.e. Prince tripped a lot on Miles' music and that inspired him. I think there's a world between creating a piece of art inspired by the work of another artist and creating it with the intention of paying homage to, or impressing said artists.

In the end no one knows what was going on in Prince's mind at the time. He likes to challenge other musicians so it is not extravagant to imagine that he may indeed have wanted to impress his dad or even Miles by showing them that "I, too, can do jazz", but I think he'd have come to recording jazz-funk regardless.

Now I don't know, it's nothing that can be factually verified so my feelings about it are just this, feelings, which is why I started my original sentence with "I don't think..." in the first place. Contrarely to many people, I differenciate sentences such as "Roses are beautiful" from sentences such as "I think roses are beautiful" and usually when I say "I think/don't think" I am not trying to disguise an opinion into a fact. It's just how I feel about things is all

Hi databank,

--

Sorry for being a little rude to you, my true apologies! I appreciate the great work you do in archiving the Prince legacy as well as your contributions to this forum.

--

To come back to the topic, here are some more quotes from another great interview with Alan Leeds

(http://thelastmiles.com/interviews-alan-leeds.php)

--

quote 1:

(about the influence of Davis on Prince):

"Eric joined the band in the middle of the Purple Rain tour and quickly became friends with [guitarist] Wendy Melvoin and [keyboardist] Lisa Coleman, who were familiar with jazz. Gradually they began turning Prince into this kind of music- he had little first hand knowledge of jazz. This was during 1984/85. They made it their own project of turning Prince onto different kinds of music. Eric would give him jazz records and turned Prince on to Sketches of Spain and Kind of Blue and other stuff."

--

quote 2:

(about Davis catalysing the Madhouse album):

"Prince had recently discovered Miles's music and his history and had a kind of falling in love with him as an icon to the same level as James Brown. He even began with Eric's help to rearrange some of the music, putting in jazz-based segues. There was actually a break between two of Prince's song where they would do 'Now Is The Time'. That led to Prince and Eric doing this Madhouse album [a jazz-influenced project]. So all of sudden Prince decided this was the music he should spend a little time on and thus began a second Madhouse album. So all of this was in the orbit when Miles intersects with the camp. The jazz radar was at its peak in the Prince camp when Miles intersected with the camp"

--

quote 3:

(about Prince's fascination with Davis):

"I think as Prince learnt more about Miles he started to see some of himself in Miles. He was fascinated with Miles and used to ask Eric about stories about Miles and he'd share recordings with him. He'd show him video recordings and Prince would be fascinated and say 'look at the way Miles is standing.' - he was just studying his moves or his posture. There was a real fascination with the iconic aspect of Miles."

---

quote 4:

(about the "special" relationship between Prince and Davis, where the two man were often trying to impress upon each other):

"Miles hung out for a few hours and Prince then had Miles over for dinner. Prince invited his father, who had been a local jazz pianist. He was an extremely eccentric player - I think he styled himself as a local wannabee Thelonius Monk! Prince also invited Sheila E, who was the drummer in his band and my brother. Eric says it was one of the oddest dinners he'd ever had! It wasn't exactly tense, but it wasn't exactly casual! There was so much tip-toeing. Eric says it was like two boxers feeling each other out."

--

quote 5:

(At some point, Madhouse 24 was even intended for Miles!):

"By now Madhouse 24 has been cancelled. In January 1991 Prince told Miles he could use the Madhouse stuff if he wanted to."

--

--

Also, around the time Prince came in contact with Miles Davis, he started to get more in touch with his father, even allowing him to contribute to some of his songs. By allowing his father in his life again, he might have been looking for a common ground they both had, namely their love for improvised, instrumental music? And by composing and recording improvised instrumental music (that clearly went beyond the one chord vamping of many 70's jazz funk), Prince might have wanted to show his father that he was capable of doing that kind music. In this respect, it's also indicative that Prince invited his father to join the dinner with Miles (see quote 4)...

jazzz said:

Hi databank,

--

Sorry for being a little rude to you, my true apologies! I appreciate the great work you do in archiving the Prince legacy as well as your contributions to this forum.

--

To come back to the topic, here are some more quotes from another great interview with Alan Leeds

(http://thelastmiles.com/interviews-alan-leeds.php)

--

quote 1:

(about the influence of Davis on Prince):

"Eric joined the band in the middle of the Purple Rain tour and quickly became friends with [guitarist] Wendy Melvoin and [keyboardist] Lisa Coleman, who were familiar with jazz. Gradually they began turning Prince into this kind of music- he had little first hand knowledge of jazz. This was during 1984/85. They made it their own project of turning Prince onto different kinds of music. Eric would give him jazz records and turned Prince on to Sketches of Spain and Kind of Blue and other stuff."

--

quote 2:

(about Davis catalysing the Madhouse album):

"Prince had recently discovered Miles's music and his history and had a kind of falling in love with him as an icon to the same level as James Brown. He even began with Eric's help to rearrange some of the music, putting in jazz-based segues. There was actually a break between two of Prince's song where they would do 'Now Is The Time'. That led to Prince and Eric doing this Madhouse album [a jazz-influenced project]. So all of sudden Prince decided this was the music he should spend a little time on and thus began a second Madhouse album. So all of this was in the orbit when Miles intersects with the camp. The jazz radar was at its peak in the Prince camp when Miles intersected with the camp"

--

quote 3:

(about Prince's fascination with Davis):

"I think as Prince learnt more about Miles he started to see some of himself in Miles. He was fascinated with Miles and used to ask Eric about stories about Miles and he'd share recordings with him. He'd show him video recordings and Prince would be fascinated and say 'look at the way Miles is standing.' - he was just studying his moves or his posture. There was a real fascination with the iconic aspect of Miles."

---

quote 4:

(about the "special" relationship between Prince and Davis, where the two man were often trying to impress upon each other):

"Miles hung out for a few hours and Prince then had Miles over for dinner. Prince invited his father, who had been a local jazz pianist. He was an extremely eccentric player - I think he styled himself as a local wannabee Thelonius Monk! Prince also invited Sheila E, who was the drummer in his band and my brother. Eric says it was one of the oddest dinners he'd ever had! It wasn't exactly tense, but it wasn't exactly casual! There was so much tip-toeing. Eric says it was like two boxers feeling each other out."

--

quote 5:

(At some point, Madhouse 24 was even intended for Miles!):

"By now Madhouse 24 has been cancelled. In January 1991 Prince told Miles he could use the Madhouse stuff if he wanted to."

--

--

Also, around the time Prince came in contact with Miles Davis, he started to get more in touch with his father, even allowing him to contribute to some of his songs. By allowing his father in his life again, he might have been looking for a common ground they both had, namely their love for improvised, instrumental music? And by composing and recording improvised instrumental music (that clearly went beyond the one chord vamping of many 70's jazz funk), Prince might have wanted to show his father that he was capable of doing that kind music. In this respect, it's also indicative that Prince invited his father to join the dinner with Miles (see quote 4)...

No offense taken

Another great interview I'd read back in the days. I see where you're coming from. Your perspective make complete sense. I just don't know but yeah, I may have been hasty in my original reply to the OP

On a side-note, many have doubted the fact that John L. actually contributed those songs he received credit for: those who were around said they had no idea when those 2 could have composed together. A possibility may be that John L. gave Prince tapes of melodies he'd composed, another is that Prince just gave him those credits to give him a source of regular income without having to humiliate him by handing him out money. We may never know. Funny thing is since he passed, I guess his royalties are being divided between his heirs, i.e. Prince's siblings and... Prince himself

[Edited 1/16/15 4:43am]

Hi databank, glad to hear that you're not offended anymore!

..

And yes, you may be right about Prince and John Nelson not actually composing together. I must have had a little too romantic view on that (both of them behind the same piano!).. you're probably right to state that Prince might have given his father credits to provide him with an income. If my memory serves me well, that info is also written down somewhere in some of the many books about Prince. But is you don't mind, I'm not going to search for those quotes again

..

Anyway, in the end, many of us are very happy with the Madhouse 8 cd. When it came out, I bought the LP and it took some listenings to really get into the music. Some years later, I was lucky enough to find the cd and by then I was really into the album. As today, I still think it's Prince's best instrumental record and one of my favourite side projects. No matter who inspired him or who he wanted to show his jazz chops to!

..

Have a nice weekend,

jazzz

jazzz said:

Hi databank, glad to hear that you're not offended anymore!

..

And yes, you may be right about Prince and John Nelson not actually composing together. I must have had a little too romantic view on that (both of them behind the same piano!).. you're probably right to state that Prince might have given his father credits to provide him with an income. If my memory serves me well, that info is also written down somewhere in some of the many books about Prince. But is you don't mind, I'm not going to search for those quotes again

..

Anyway, in the end, many of us are very happy with the Madhouse 8 cd. When it came out, I bought the LP and it took some listenings to really get into the music. Some years later, I was lucky enough to find the cd and by then I was really into the album. As today, I still think it's Prince's best instrumental record and one of my favourite side projects. No matter who inspired him or who he wanted to show his jazz chops to!

..

Have a nice weekend,

jazzz

The theory about John L. is also something I've read in a book (maybe D.M.D.R. or Possessed?).

8 is indeed a delicious album, I wasn't there yet in 87 and I originally acquired it on cassette in 92, when it was already quite hard to find: it became an instant favorite.

databank said:

jazzz said:

Hi databank, glad to hear that you're not offended anymore!

..

And yes, you may be right about Prince and John Nelson not actually composing together. I must have had a little too romantic view on that (both of them behind the same piano!).. you're probably right to state that Prince might have given his father credits to provide him with an income. If my memory serves me well, that info is also written down somewhere in some of the many books about Prince. But is you don't mind, I'm not going to search for those quotes again

..

Anyway, in the end, many of us are very happy with the Madhouse 8 cd. When it came out, I bought the LP and it took some listenings to really get into the music. Some years later, I was lucky enough to find the cd and by then I was really into the album. As today, I still think it's Prince's best instrumental record and one of my favourite side projects. No matter who inspired him or who he wanted to show his jazz chops to!

..

Have a nice weekend,

jazzz

The theory about John L. is also something I've read in a book (maybe D.M.D.R. or Possessed?).

8 is indeed a delicious album, I wasn't there yet in 87 and I originally acquired it on cassette in 92, when it was already quite hard to find: it became an instant favorite.

There seems to be more of an "all in the family" vibe in the mix, reading through some of these comments. I just know that when someone makes an appearance in a Prince view, sometimes it's not just a case of "the tree is just a tree." I suppose, also, that there is definitely a formalist way of looking at this, as well as a New Historicist way. I sure would like to find my way to a site or some place where I can hear the Prince Nelson trio, but I bet it would go for serious money.

TASKAE said:

databank said:

The theory about John L. is also something I've read in a book (maybe D.M.D.R. or Possessed?).

8 is indeed a delicious album, I wasn't there yet in 87 and I originally acquired it on cassette in 92, when it was already quite hard to find: it became an instant favorite.

There seems to be more of an "all in the family" vibe in the mix, reading through some of these comments. I just know that when someone makes an appearance in a Prince view, sometimes it's not just a case of "the tree is just a tree." I suppose, also, that there is definitely a formalist way of looking at this, as well as a New Historicist way. I sure would like to find my way to a site or some place where I can hear the Prince Nelson trio, but I bet it would go for serious money.

I've thought about that: John L. has been a musician all his life. I don't know, regardless of the alledged co-compositions with Prince, whether he composed tunes or he was just doing covers, but anyway all that's left of that man's musical career is a 4 tracks EP from 1994. Given how uneasy it was to record stuff on the fly before the mid-70's or so, I assume there exist no other recordings of him. If, however there are such recordings, even in poor quality, it would be quite amazing to be able to hear them. I actually have no idea what this guy actually played but he's Prince's father, so you know, historically at least it would be quite interesting...

Same with his mom BTW, who was a singer IIRC.

It's a funny thing, however, that according to the quotes above, Prince had such a little knowledge of hardbop and other classic forms of jazz before meeting Eric Leeds. It says a lot, I guess, to the distance there's always been between him and his parents :/