Firstly, I’d like to point out how great the London shows were, not just the performances, but to help remind those who attended what a great artist we all support.

However, the shows also brought out the worst element in some people, and the greed within many, in the name of fairness. The queues for the sound checks really showed this.

I think NPGMC is making a big mistake not allocating seats for the sound check. Those that attended will know where I’m coming from. We are all fans, and we’d all love to be in the front row, but that is not possible. So the question is, who should be in that front row (or nearby)?

I’ve only attended one US show, and the problem was not as severe, but in Europe, after a 4-year absence on concerts, big problems arose.

First of all, I think we need to address one question? What makes or who is a bigger Prince Fan?

The person willing to queue for 12 hours at the venue?

The person who has every record ever recorded?

The person who has been at the front a hundred times?

The answer is none of them. Simply, because you cannot quantify the “biggest” fan because we all have a different opinion. I have more vinyl and CD than 99% of the org, but someone with 1 CD maybe a bigger fan because of their desire to see the show. It cannot be judged.

So what am I getting at?

At the London shows, I saw favouritism, cheating, pushing in and many other ill treatments at the expense of others, all in the name of Prince.

What ended up happening was, many of the same faces appeared, each night, at the front. Even Prince made reference to this. Were these the bigger fans? Or greed, manufactured in the name of fairness.

On the org, much “props” have gone out to people at the front of the queue. Not just for their friendliness, but for “keeping them a space or seat”. What we are actually seeing is favouritism, in the same was the scalpers/touts let money do the talking. The whole idea of the General Admission (GA) was to be free for all. Yet I saw many seats being held, and worst still, queue “spaces” being kept for friends or associates.

I am certainly not racist, but I did wonder, why was so much of the front row taken by Dutch and Germans? Its not because they are bigger fans, but because, unlike the local population, they did not need to work that day, and therefore, were able to join the queue at 8.30am! (They told me).

This situation is based on circumstance, not fan loyalty. Yet, many were in row one and two, for all three nights. While the local population, who in many cases, could not afford to travel the continent found themselves pushed further back, by people who will enjoy front row “status” in England and their home country.

I honestly don’t mind what country any Prince fan comes from. But what I do mind is manufactured favouritism.

In the name of fairness, there was a very pleasant guy (Dutch I think) who helped control the queue. However, who benefited? He got in the second row on Thursday, and the front row on Friday and Saturday. He sat a lot of the time, making notes in his book, of the set list. His big pal actually fell asleep in the piano set, so tired from the day. Yet I saw new fans aching for a five minute dance that close.

The idea was simple. Everyone in the queue got a raffle ticket number, from him, and that was your place in the queue. But I was about one hundred people back in the queue, yet ended up with a ticket number 249. Why? Because the people at he front of the queue, kept spare ticket numbers for friends/associates who had not arrived. I was not the only person to notice this.

So, in effect, the people who’s circumstance allowed them to queue in the morning, not only got to control who got in the front block, but, through “thank you” loyalty to them, ensured they ended up in the front row with no hassle.

Now I expect many to disagree with me and defend those at the front of the line, but many of those defenders are those who directly benefited from the connection. To me, this is not different to scalping.

So, now that the NPGMC has helped beat the scalpers, we have in effect, created a new chain of command over seats. This is wrong, and against the whole ethos of the club.

Equally, I have benefited from this unfairness. Having been at he shows before, I got into the foyer and queued from the side. Within 5 minutes I was standing next to people with ticket number “80” while I had “249”.

But the funny thing is, I was ahead of the person in question BEFORE the raffle tickets were given out? Fair?

Inside the arena was not better. Prince wanted to strike up a conversation with his fans, and was confronted with the “Front row fans” asking kiss ass questions. Some tried to make their questions thought provoking and failed miserably. When Prince asked about where we got our musical influences from (TV or Radio), several familiar faces in the central block started shouting answers like “We only listen to you” and “Do you think we are influenced by the media?”

I’m sorry; you people are either sucking up, or in Princes words “need to get out more”.

So what would I like to see? Me in the front row? Once in a while, yes. But not all the time. We should share that experience. Isn’t that what being a Prince fan is about?

If the club allocated, at random, we could all have a turn.

I’m I bitter? No. Me, in 86? row 1, 3, and 8. In 87, row 10. In 88, row 1,2,1, and 46. The list goes on. This week, row 2, 4, and 6.

What would I like to see? Me, a bit further back, and a real fan, who has NEVER been down the front, in my place. Not the same old faces.

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. I will be at Manchester, and if end up in better seat than someone I know in the org, who hasn’t had the chance. I will swap. The view and sound is still great a few rows back.

The easy answer is the club to manage and allocate the seats, but in the unlikely event that they don’t, will the MPGMC members who are actually scalping fellow fans stop? Please?

Holding seats and tickets for “friends” is actually denying fans in the queue of their rights.

Now that sound deep, and I don’t want to get carried away. But if we shy away, then it will continue.

We should carry on enjoying the show, but can we begin, as a small group, to be fair or am I asking too much?

If GA is to continue, how about these simple rules for all?

1. First come, first served. No holding seats and “numbers”.
2. Club stick together. Bum rushers denied.
3. Take your place and enjoy! Stop trying to beat the others!
4. Marvel at Toto! The marvel dancer from Italy!
[This message was edited Sun Oct 6 18:26:51 PDT 2002 by Nate]

Nate, are you Prince's son?

bkw said:

ilegitimate...shhh

Nate said:

uhhh...you better email this to the npgmc thingie...i noticed the same types of things here in Oakland Ca...its rather frustrating to see the same ole people in the front section simply because they can take four days off of work just to sit up front...i liked it better when i was able to purchase tickets (or fight my way) to the front...

and its the same tired people with the tired way too flashy for their age clothes..or big hats who think they are being cute but are just blocking people's views.

or the tired men in fur coats :O honey, i did that when i was 19..when u are pushing 30, sell the damn coat *back* to the second hand store you bought it from..

In my experience, the general admission policy for NPGMC members seems to be the fairest solution. It combines a reward system for those who support Prince by joining the Club (assuring that ALL members will be in the closest seats) with a separate appropriate reward for those who stick it out in line the longest - show up early, you get to be in front.

The system breaks down when people cheat. It seems that your problems stem from a separate group of unfair fans who seized control of the line, performed favors for their friends, and started a bogus numbering system.

By contrast, at the ONA show that I attended in L.A., the line for NPGMC members was simply a first-come, first-served proposition. It was fairly supervised by JSeven and the L.A. Bumpsquad (thank you!). I took the day off from work, flew to L.A., showed up very early, and took my place in line. It netted me a fantastic 2nd row seat. In my opinion, I earned it.

The worst approach would be to blame the NPGMC for the rudeness of those who unfairly manipulated your line-up. In my opinion, the current system is the fairest of all. It was FAR WORSE when all seats were available from a central ticket source like Ticketmaster, and it get even uglier when ALL seating is General Admission.

Yes the system is a good one but many will abuse it for their own gain. Fairness is aslo a good thing and the situation in Toronto was handled pretty darn well by fellow Canadian. But even still, there were cheats at both Toronto & Hamilton and that's uncool. I fear ugliness in Rotterdam but not Hamburg (as I anticipate a smaller lineup). Hell I'll be so tired from my Oct 14 flight that they can bring me in on a stretcher and put me wherever they want. Will be awake by Antwerpen though. P

I agree that the ticket situation was far worse when members had to deal with Ticketmaster. When this tour first got underway, some bizarre things happened to club members who had to get their tickets through Ticketmaster. Some of the members ended up in row 20 and some even got balcony seats or in the last rows in the venue.

It was problems with passwords and complaints over the way Ticketmaster was handling the member tickets that led to the general admission policy for NPGMC.

The general admission system depends on the honor code. People have to be honest and not cheat in order for it to work.

Honor is the key and respecting others. Be happy in the second row one nite and the 3rd or 4th the next. Hec, you are in the primo spots in the facility. P

this is so sad.

i too think it should be allocated seating, i was in row 4,10, and 8. i had a great view and a fantastic time all 3 nites.

if someone is sad enough/has enough time on their hands to queue all day every day i guess thats up to them.

but dont you feel a little strange ? i mean even P commented on it.

but holding spots for people who cant q all day like you - nah, thats not good. and as for those who decide they are somehow "in charge" of the fans, excuse me, but who the fuck made you god ? any of you gonna come on here and try and justify your actions - i wont hold my breath.

all members got a good seat, so why not try acting your age not your shoe size.

I can now understand why I have got on your wick so much...

I agree with youre comments 100%, in fact I got tired of seeing the same old faces on the front row every night.

The list of names on Thursday (I believe taking christian names only - nice one) and the raffle tickets (which I knew nothing about) was a sham, in fact the Hammersmith Apollo staff would not let me in without the say so from one of these sad obsessed fans which obviously made me very angry, he knows who he is and I hope you feel ashamed at your greed and manipulation of the situation for your own benefit and listen up YOU DON'T WORK FOR PRINCE.

Do I want front row, do I hell, I want whats fair for everyone and for people not to abuse the system and give others a chance at being so close to Prince.

I really must say though I met some wonderful people, everyone was so friendly and chatty so maybe it was good that the pretentious one's were down the front after all.

OK - here's what happened in London with line places as I saw things unfold

1st night (Thursday) a paper system was used where each members name was taken by a prince.org member ( I won't list his name as some children actually threatend him for helping out). This worked really well and EVERYONE was really cool and got in line perfectly.

2nd night (Friday) - the Dutch guys took over the list. Instead of adding the names themselves, they left the list on the steps and this in turn enabled people to add more than one name to the list. A flawed system which was recognised and changed for the next night by the guys going and buying some raffle tickets.

3rd night (Saturday) - The raffle ticket system was ran again by the Dutch guys but monitored by several others. When someone showed up they were given ONE ticket per person WHO WAS THERE IN PERSON. No additional tickets were handed out for "friends who'll be here later".

Now there's arguments for and against STAYING in line when waiting and I appreciate both camps arguments however everyone who was in the front section had turned up early. Some went over to Weatherspoons for the arranged prince.org meet up and some went to get food but everyone checked back in regularly.

Out of 250 tickets issued, 4 people decided that a fairer system was to wait until the doors opened and then run into the queue at about position number 10 (1 girl and 3 guys from France who also did this on Friday night). Thankfully Apollo securtity took care of this and shifted them.

Myself I was given a ticket number over 120 and still made it to the front row, you just need to have a little persistance and be sensible about not just running down the center aisle.

oh boy! what a mess...

starbass said:

i agree with you 100%

A part of the problem also was with the Apollo Hammersmith itself. They were totally clueless on what was going on or how to handle it. The Dutch guy actually used to work concert security for years, so he was at least TRYING to help the situation.

It started to break down when after we got into the venue we were all queued up at a closed door! If we had been allowed in to the venue and to our seats immediately after we had been let in the door to pick up our wristbands--it may have helped.

The Dutch guy had told the Apollo not to let anyone in until the inner doors were opened. Obviously that didn't happen. He also suggested that they hand out the wrist bands OUTSIDE, this way we wouldn't be all queued up and/or delayed getting in since we also then had to wait in the appropriate box office line (by last name of the alphabet) to get the wristband and laminate.

All around there was a breakdown on communication between the NPGMC members needs/requirements, Apollo staff, and security. There really needs one (or more) central person(s) (in the Prince road crew itself) organzing it all; or at least coordinating with each venue. Why did it have to be left up to the fans to TRY and get things straigtened out?!?

Mikki

freakyfeet said:

No it was not cool, only the people that had been queing since the am had there name on the list, I got there at 2.30
and at 4.30ish when they called names out because I was not there earlier I had to go to the back of the que with a lot of other people.
who were the people doing that list ?
are you saying that they had NOTHING to do with Prince ?

Nate, you have a very good writing and argumenting style!

I fully agree with you and it is a shame that some fans have nothing better to do than ALWAYS be in front row and q for that the whole day.
Similar things happened at the Celebration...and while Minneapolis is such a lovely and nice city to discover, all they saw was the Paisley Park building.

And yes, the Dutch fans are terrible in respect to getting at front row. I know their faces and they are so full of themselves, only because they are Prince fans... but hey if that is all they know...fine with me

I am afraid next week in Rotterdam is going to be one big nightmare - all Dutch fans will be there. That is why I will not show my face in Rotterdam until 5.30 or so and stand back at the PA system - where the sound is the best

I don't need the sweat of Prince in my face, and I certainly don't need him to acknowledge my existence on earth. Nobody I know will like me more when or if he did...

robmikkid said:

Well said Mikki. A number of members, myself included, tried to talk to the Apollo staff about the organising but they said they were working under clear instructions from Prince's team.

The cock-up on Thursday with allocated / non allocated seats was purely done to a language barrier problem as the Apollo misunderstood the meaning of "ticketed" entry.

You're right though - someone from Prince's team needs to take ownership of queue management.


EROICA29 - why didn't you mention this to anyone ? I know the guy that managed the line and if anyone who's name was on the list showed up a bit later then their place in the queue was found and they were helped out !

roverlo said:

The ironic thing is the Dutch guys did not move, dance, sing, or look remotely alive when they were in the front row !

If someone is going to take ownership for the queuing system then they need to be honest about it. It seems a heavy coincidence that numbers 10-35 on the list all had dutch sounding names !! (this was on Friday night only - on saturday a couple of the English guys monitored their system to make sure it was fair)

freakyfeet said:

So I have heard from several reliable sources... I know them... always front row and only moving the little toe on their left foot and tapping their right foot. Oh how funky we are... I also heard that Prince was making fun of them on Saturday during the soundcheck... he is in for a treat though. These guys travel all over Europe to see his show. And every time they will be there, right in his face (while moving the little toe of their left foot while tapping their right foot)... If I was Prince I would take the first plane back home

Where are the defenders of their actions??

I'll tell you where.

Probably already in the bloody queue at Manachester!

I agree, allocation is the best way. The allocation system on Thursday WOULD have worked, but the confusion arose because we were told different things.

For those that wern't there, when you collected your laminate and wrist band, you were given your tickets in a sealed envelope.

Obviously, those that had queued for hours were pissed off (and ignored the ticket numbers), but had they been told in advance. it would have worked.

The people who were pissed off, took the front, and were there on Friday and Saturday too.

If the NPGMC were to announce that tickets will now be allocated, randomly to NPGMC members, we'd get...

1. No queueing for the whole day
2. No favouritism between fans
3. Relaxed NPGMC crowd.
4. Get a drink, read the programme and chill
5. Get to chat to more fans
6. No one can get upset.
7. No one can bum rush your seat.
8. You can go to the toilet without risking your seat
9. We all still get a good "members only" view
10. Prince gets to see different faces!

Everyone wins! Except those trying to ensure they stop anyone else being down the front.

I wanted to know the name of the guy on the door on Saturday and he said he was a "nobody" and should not worry, you weren't going to let me in without a raffle ticket you prick of course I'm worried!!.

freakyfeet said:

Not so. I got more that one ticket myself, and I was on my own. Plus saw some people with strips of tickets. I was simply asked, "How many?". I felt like I was dealing with a tout.

There was one poor guy, who didn't get a raffle ticket, because he joined the back of the queue, and didn't wonder up the front, therefore he could not know. Also, he'd come from Germany and didn't speak great English, so he couldn't pick up was was going on around him.

When the dutch guy started checking peoples numbers in the queue, and got to this guy without one, he had no more to give out, and told him he'd have to go to the back of the queue. An hour after he started queuing!

Funny thing is. The dutch guy was trying to enforce a rule, invented on the day (Sat). But when the venue tried to implement a rule invented on the day (allocation on Thur). He was one of the people who ignored it and took the second row seats.

Double standards anyone?

starbass said:

LOL! Thats how I felt!

And the Apollo staff were waiting on HIM to tell them whether I could go in or not...er...WAKE UP!!!

I caused a bit of a scene but after 3 days of frustration it got to me and I lost it

I still wanna know who this guy was, goatee beard..any ideas?

You are all pathetic, sorry.

Queueing is normal in The Netherlands and Germany. I remember queueing for 2 days (or even more) for a Prince concert, even for tickets before the internet tickets. If you're a fan you are queueing. If not, you're not a fan. What are the reasons people can not queue:

1. You cannot get off from work, etc. Bull, if you're a fan, you can. What you say? "I can be fired" So!?

I remember a (Dutch) woman who followed the whole European Lovesexy tour (or was it the Nude tour) and her boss said no, so she quit her job. After the tour her boss took her back

2. You have health problems? Please queue, we will take care of you, everyone is welcome.

3. People want to be relaxed. Just go in at 7PM and walk to the front row. Please?!!? This is Rock & Roll!!! You have to suffer for being a Prince fan

I proberly know those Dutch people at the front row and they know me and I should also be there if I was not broke. Yes they do not dance, they did that in 1988 for the last time They try to follow the concert.

Cheers,

J

jayenell said:[quote]You are all pathetic, sorry.

Thats nice...thanks

Were you there, you cannot believe how much of a fiasco the last 3 days have been and fortunately Prince blew us all away so we forgot how bad its been, hopefully the rest of Europe doesn't need to suffer in this way and things can be organised properly.

Very sad to see this type of activity by obsessive fans. I went to the show on Friday annd got an aisle seat on row 15. The sound and view was superb and the people around me were great. I could see a 'click' down in front holding seats and kissing ase when Prince came out. Sad thing is he thought it was silly to see 'all guys' up front and mentioned he can't sing ballads to a bunch of guys.
The whole thing reminded me of the time I took my niece to spice girls:)

Folks, dig deep into your mindset and ask what you want to get from the show. For me walking away having heard the very spiritual 'anna stasia' and asking the 'hard questions' in my head was the highlight.

Whether I was in row 1 or 15 was irrelevant.

Peace

The guy was just a fan who was trying to help out. He does post on here so I'll leave it to him if he choses to identify himself.

If you do still have a complaint, the person at the Apollo who ASKED the fans to setup a system was the security manager and his saftey manager named "JC".

No system is going to work 100% without allocated seating. EVERYONE who worked with the member list and the ticketing system BEGGED the Apollo staff to revert to allocated seating but PRINCE over-ruled them and said he wanted it GA.

I'd strongly suggest that anyone who's unhappy with the unallocated system emails NPGMC and tells them rather than complain about the volunteer on the door who was only trying to help out.

You must also remember that there were some who turned up at 4.30pm and just tried to go straight in, if it weren't for the ticketing system then it would have all gone a lot worse.

Hope this clears things up, sorry for not posting the name of the guy on the door but I think that's his choice and not mine or yours.

Gav

I remember this Dutch guy from the last-but-one show in Belgium (Vorst). Didn't like his raffle methods, neither did the guys from the venue. But hey, let's make this world a better place. Those dutch fellaz want to organize everything they can get their hands on. I leave them be. As long as they don't qualify for the Worldcup they are completely harmless