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Thread started 12/29/03 8:10am

FreeChild

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earthquakes, wars ...........

Anybody else getting the feeling that this show's almost over?


"Mt 24:3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?"
4 And in answer Jesus said to them: "Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.7 "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress."

"Mark 13:3 And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives with the temple in view, Peter and James and John and Andrew began to ask him privately: 4 "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion?" 5 So Jesus started to say to them: "Look out that nobody misleads YOU. 6 Many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am he,' and will mislead many. 7 Moreover, when YOU hear of wars and reports of wars, do not be terrified; [these things] must take place, but the end is not yet.
8 "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, there will be earthquakes in one place after another, there will be food shortages. These are a beginning of pangs of distress."

_______________________________________________
The truth sounds like a memory.
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Reply #1 posted 12/29/03 8:12am

2the9s

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Do you want me to help you find a new avatar before we blow?!

I would not want my ass to get caught at the apocalpyse with that shit! lol j/k

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Reply #2 posted 12/29/03 8:17am

FreeChild

avatar

2the9s said:

Do you want me to help you find a new avatar before we blow?!

I would not want my ass to get caught at the apocalpyse with that shit! lol j/k



aw, come on...Sandy's cool

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The truth sounds like a memory.
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Reply #3 posted 12/29/03 8:23am

Abrazo

People have been quoting revelations over and over when they did not know how to view this world's disasters. Wars and earthquakes have been here since mankind can remember.

You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security.
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Reply #4 posted 12/29/03 8:25am

stymie

Abrazo said:

People have been quoting revelations over and over when they did not know how to view this world's disasters. Wars and earthquakes have been here since mankind can remember.
Darn it, A. You stole my answer.

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Reply #5 posted 12/29/03 8:34am

FreeChild

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It is reasonable to say that, we were born into a world where these things are everyday news. But,even historians believe that there is something different about our time.
[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 8:34:47 PST 2003 by FreeChild]

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Reply #6 posted 12/29/03 8:54am

SensualMelody

Also interesting is at this same prophetic time, the scriptures say
that the "wild beast" (believed to be the UN) will turn on the "harlot"
and devastate her.
This "harlot" is believed to be the collective world religious empire.

In other words, The UN and its members will destroy organized religion as we know it.

I used to find that so hard to believe, but in my lifetime,
I have witnessed this "religious" empire fall from grace.

Now the governments are collectively poised to wipe her out.
Just look at recent events...especially in Paris.
Well, look here in the US...prayer outlawed in schools, churches lost tax exempt status
...ten commandment scandal...the uncovering of rampant child abuse
by the ones once considered most holy...
It goes on and on.

Watch and see...BABYLON THE GREAT continues to fall!!!
Revelation chapter 17: 15,16.

And this makes me believe we are in the time period that the
prophets refer to as the "time of the end".
This is not a frightening thing in itself.
Better times are prophecied as a result of these developments.
(Luke 21:28).

heart
Melody

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #7 posted 12/29/03 9:13am

stymie

Hi, Melody!!! hug

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Reply #8 posted 12/29/03 9:59am

Ardeo

SensualMelody said:

Also interesting is at this same prophetic time, the scriptures say
that the "wild beast" (believed to be the UN) will turn on the "harlot"
and devastate her.
This "harlot" is believed to be the collective world religious empire.

In other words, The UN and its members will destroy organized religion as we know it.

I used to find that so hard to believe, but in my lifetime,
I have witnessed this "religious" empire fall from grace.

Now the governments are collectively poised to wipe her out.
Just look at recent events...especially in Paris.
Well, look here in the US...prayer outlawed in schools, churches lost tax exempt status
...ten commandment scandal...the uncovering of rampant child abuse
by the ones once considered most holy...
It goes on and on.

Watch and see...BABYLON THE GREAT continues to fall!!!
Revelation chapter 17: 15,16.

And this makes me believe we are in the time period that the
prophets refer to as the "time of the end".
This is not a frightening thing in itself.
Better times are prophecied as a result of these developments.
(Luke 21:28).

heart
Melody



i sure hope the UN do wipe out religion, it's been nothing but trouble since some brightspark invented god and religion rolleyes

the French are on the right track wink

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Reply #9 posted 12/29/03 2:33pm

namepeace

No one knows the day or the hour.

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #10 posted 12/29/03 6:29pm

SensualMelody

Ardeo said:

SensualMelody said:

Also interesting is at this same prophetic time, the scriptures say
that the "wild beast" (believed to be the UN) will turn on the "harlot"
and devastate her.
This "harlot" is believed to be the collective world religious empire.

In other words, The UN and its members will destroy organized religion as we know it.

I used to find that so hard to believe, but in my lifetime,
I have witnessed this "religious" empire fall from grace.

Now the governments are collectively poised to wipe her out.
Just look at recent events...especially in Paris.
Well, look here in the US...prayer outlawed in schools, churches lost tax exempt status
...ten commandment scandal...the uncovering of rampant child abuse
by the ones once considered most holy...
It goes on and on.

Watch and see...BABYLON THE GREAT continues to fall!!!
Revelation chapter 17: 15,16.

And this makes me believe we are in the time period that the
prophets refer to as the "time of the end".
This is not a frightening thing in itself.
Better times are prophecied as a result of these developments.
(Luke 21:28).

heart
Melody



i sure hope the UN do wipe out religion, it's been nothing but trouble since some brightspark invented god and religion rolleyes

the French are on the right track wink


U and me both...Then the Kingdom of God will rule.
Daniel 2:44; Revelation 19:11-19
heart Melody

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #11 posted 12/29/03 6:36pm

SensualMelody

namepeace said:

No one knows the day or the hour.

Absolute truth...not the day...not the hour...
But it will be one of the 7 days of the week and one of the 24 hours of the day.
Incidentally, the time of the end is a "period" of time...

heart Melody

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #12 posted 12/30/03 12:00am

GRR

From what it sounds like your a JW

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Reply #13 posted 12/30/03 12:53am

Abrazo

stymie said:

Abrazo said:

People have been quoting revelations over and over when they did not know how to view this world's disasters. Wars and earthquakes have been here since mankind can remember.
Darn it, A. You stole my answer.

sign of the times... wink

You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security.
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Reply #14 posted 12/30/03 12:55am

Abrazo

FreeChild said:

It is reasonable to say that, we were born into a world where these things are everyday news. But,even historians believe that there is something different about our time.
[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 8:34:47 PST 2003 by FreeChild]

I don't know if is usefull for historians to believe, but... what do they believe then?

You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security.
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Reply #15 posted 12/30/03 1:15am

Abrazo

SensualMelody said:

Now the governments are collectively poised to wipe her out.
Just look at recent events...especially in Paris.
Well, look here in the US...prayer outlawed in schools, churches lost tax exempt status
...ten commandment scandal...the uncovering of rampant child abuse
by the ones once considered most holy...
It goes on and on.

Hi Mel smile

I'm going to ask you some questions if you don't mind...

How does this you wrote about "wipe out" religion?

The matter in France is of a political nature, it really doesn't have to do with wiping out religion, but with a government looking to keep control on how Islam penetrates its society. Controlling religion is different than wiping it out.

I don't know details on any "outlaw" of prayer in schools in the US, but I can only assume that this is the case in public schools and I believe it raises a lot of resistance from people who want to practice their religion at public schools. I think that keeping religious matters separated from government matters (which a public school is) is a healthy thing to do, instead of mixing it all up, which - by looking at the history of religion and state as one - consistently created the worst of the worst situations.

The constitutional system of separation of church and state balanced by freedom of religion creates a situation in which all religions can have their place (hence the religious melting pot that is the US). Without this system the religion with the most members would rule and then - as history shows- truly "outlaw" the other religions... up to the point of truly "wiping out" these other religions... Think about it.

If churches really "lost" tax exempt status you gonna have to back that up with some information, because I can't believe that would truly and fully be the case in the US. Perhabs you mean that churches have less benefits now than before. In any case, I feel that when churches make money they should pay taxes like every other citizen, company and institution that makes money does.

The ten commendmends "scandal" probably refers to the US judge who wouldn't remove the symbol from his court house. I wouldn't be surprised if this man truly depsises the separation of church and state balanced by freedom of religion and is a hardcore Christian with no tolerance of other religions or convictions, which makes him IMO a danger to society when he is a judge. Because he, of all people, should know how important it is that government institutions try to stay neutral in religious affairs at all times. The importance lies in the fact that this system breeds religious tolerance. A system where the two are not separated would not.

No doubt that the child abuse cases are a sad thing of all times. If any, IMO it is the current openess of society and the separation of church and state that makes the publication of these affairs possible. Before, when there was no separation, no one talked about it and nobody did anything about it. Now, after the churches have lost much of their moral superiority status and thanks to the separation of church and state these awfull cases can be brought into daylight where the so-called "holy men" who abuse children can be seen as what they are. Now what we also need to do is expose the statesmen who abuse children and women and we have moved a long way forward from our dark collective past.

--
[This message was edited Tue Dec 30 1:22:37 PST 2003 by Abrazo]

You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security.
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Reply #16 posted 12/30/03 9:07am

OdysseyMiles

FreeChild said:

It is reasonable to say that, we were born into a world where these things are everyday news. But,even historians believe that there is something different about our time.
[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 8:34:47 PST 2003 by FreeChild]


There are cetainly many things different about our time. Wars, earthquakes, famine, etc.; all these things have been taking place for quite some time now. What makes our time different is that these things are taking place worldwide on a daily basis.
There is however, a light at the end of the tunnel. Rev. 21:1-4. thumbs up!

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Reply #17 posted 12/30/03 12:18pm

SensualMelody

Hello Abrazo...Thank U for these wonderful questions! smile

Here we go...

(1)How does this you wrote about "wipe out" religion?

What I wrote were observations on the change in attitudes of authorities toward religion.
Once held as sacred, they are no longer held in such high regard as evidenced by the things I mentioned.
The church used to run the state. Therefore "in God we trust" on money
..."on nation under God" in pledge...not to mention references in most proclamations
...Declaration of Independence, Gettysburg address...etc.
The changes are well documented in the developments over the past few years.

In the US, prayer is not even allowed at football games. (public schools), nor are relogious celebrations.
So I am saying, the stance that is being taken by authorities make it much more believable
what the Bible says about the governments turning on religion to devastate her...

ok next...
heart

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #18 posted 12/30/03 12:21pm

2the9s

avatar

How's everybody doing on avatars on this thread?

Abrazo? You need some help?

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Reply #19 posted 12/30/03 12:46pm

SensualMelody

(2) If churches really "lost" tax exempt status you gonna have to back that up with some information, because I can't believe that would truly and fully be the case in the US. Perhabs you mean that churches have less benefits now than before. In any case, I feel that when churches make money they should pay taxes like every other citizen, company and institution that makes money does.

This is not really a question...but a request for evidence.
SO...I remember when salaried Ministers were no longer able to claim their salaries as tax exempt.
The churches themselves, as any other "non-profit" or
charitable organization still hold tax-exempt status...for now.

I totally agree that many churches are big business...and should probably
be taxed on their business ventures.

example It is no secret that the (denomination omitted) Church in America generates great wealth. In stocks alone, one market expert suggested that when you touch figures like $20,000,000,000 "maybe you'll be close." The land assets alone of this organization of New York are conservatively estimated at $55,000,000. Said author Kenneth G. Gross: "(denomination omitted), organizationally and clerically, reportedly realize major profits from Grace Lines, Moran Towing, dozens of food producers and packagers, the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, and various utilities. (denomination omitted) own large blocks of shares in defense industries (National Steel, Boeing, Lockheed, Douglas, Curtiss-Wright), as well as DiGiorgio Corp. and other firms. The Knights of Columbus, a tax-exempt lay group, includes the land under Yankee Stadium in a portfolio of half a billion dollars." A priest said: "The (denomination omitted) Church must either get back to helping its poorest members rather than cultivating its most influential parishioners, or else risk devastation."

so, no disagreement here.

heart

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #20 posted 12/30/03 12:48pm

SensualMelody

2the9s said:

How's everybody doing on avatars on this thread?

Abrazo? You need some help?


U know Abrazo needs no help...The man is a genius.
He just wants to know if I know what the heck I am talking about. biggrin

heart Melody


.
[This message was edited Tue Dec 30 19:28:45 PST 2003 by SensualMelody]

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #21 posted 12/30/03 12:58pm

SensualMelody

Christian with no tolerance of other religions or convictions, which makes him IMO a danger to society when he is a judge. Because he, of all people, should know how important it is that government institutions try to stay neutral in religious affairs ...

Total agreement here too.
Jesus was neutral to "state" affairs.
Christianity as instututed by Christ was neutral to political/state affairs.
Scripturally, Christians are told to be "no part of the world"
...meaning its political affairs. There was to be no mixing of church and state...
a stand still held to by at least one religion.

And yes...a judge should know...

heart Melody

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #22 posted 12/30/03 1:08pm

SensualMelody

Now, after the churches have lost much of their moral superiority status and thanks to the separation of church and state these awfull cases can be brought into daylight where the so-called "holy men" who abuse children can be seen as what they are.

Precisely!
This is what I am saying...there has been a definite change in attitude...
To quote U..."the churches have lost much of their moral superiority status..."

The churches are also losing their credibility among people all over the world
and they have failed miserably in carrying out the function they claim they have...
that is to help people.

So to restate...the position of states in reference to the religious harlot
is "Get off my back! I'm tired of your prostitional acts."

Revelation 18:9,10 show the ones who used to profit from her...mourning her demise.

heart Melody

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #23 posted 12/30/03 1:09pm

SensualMelody

OdysseyMiles said:

FreeChild said:

It is reasonable to say that, we were born into a world where these things are everyday news. But,even historians believe that there is something different about our time.
[This message was edited Mon Dec 29 8:34:47 PST 2003 by FreeChild]


There are cetainly many things different about our time. Wars, earthquakes, famine, etc.; all these things have been taking place for quite some time now. What makes our time different is that these things are taking place worldwide on a daily basis.
There is however, a light at the end of the tunnel. Rev. 21:1-4. thumbs up!

Hey Boo...
heart Melody

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #24 posted 12/30/03 1:15pm

SensualMelody

GRR said:

From what it sounds like your a JW


Is this a distinct sound?

heart Melody

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #25 posted 12/30/03 1:54pm

OdysseyMiles

SensualMelody said:

GRR said:

From what it sounds like your a JW


Is this a distinct sound?

heart Melody


Yeah, JWs make this distinct humming sound. The sound of harmony lol

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Reply #26 posted 12/30/03 3:02pm

CeeJay

Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to get people talking about "the state of the world" (as you can see from above) and lead the discussion in such a way that their religion will appear to be your only hope.

All of us are afraid of the unknown. What will happen tomorrow? Will I be fired? What if there's a nuclear war? What if I get sick? These 'what if' questions are the sparks that the Witnesses will fan into a flame.

The Witnesses have a purpose in mind: to convert you to their religion. If you ask them point-blank if that is their purpose, they will usually deny it. They will say that they are there to discuss "the state of the world" or "the Bible" or "a hope for the future". This evasiveness is understandable; if they blatantly told people they were there to convert them, they wouldn't get anybody to listen!

In building up your fear, Witnesses can cite countless statistics to 'prove' that the world is in a dire state. Some of their statements are true, some are out of date, and some are wrong.

Anybody can inadvertently deliver incorrect data. The Witnesses, however, deliver selective information designed to paint a woeful picture. While there are many things wrong with the world, there are many good things, too.

Alongside their bleak picture of the future, the Witnesses present an image of a glorious future, where you will live forever in a paradise. This is very appealing, and it is hard not to be tempted. We all yearn for a 'Garden of Eden', and many people take regular vacations in exotic locales such as Hawaii or Tahiti to sample a bit of the good life.

Even if you are well educated and articulate, you are probably not well versed in religious matters. Witnesses 'live, eat and breathe' their religion and can devastate most people in a debate. They know their doctrine very well, because they study it continuously. They've been taught answers to virtually every objection, which brings to mind the salesman's credo: "If you can answer every objection, you'll make the sale".

If you can answer every objection, it does not mean that you are right (or that the product you are selling is better than the rest). It means that you are better at debates than the other person. (What seems too good to be true is usually not true.)

For all their skill, Witnesses are not invincible debaters. It is possible to poke a hole in their rhetoric especially if you are familiar with their doctrine, or have a good background in the Bible, science, or history. In such cases, Witnesses will subtly sidestep the issue.

As with most religions, Witnesses derive great benefit from the intangible spirit of the group, rather than specific doctrines. As Witnesses, they regularly associate with good people who share the same ideas and values.

Moreover, all Witnesses look forward to the same thing: a world where pain and suffering have been erased. Who can not be moved by a dream of eternal joy?

You may have doubts that the Witnesses have 'the true religion' (whatever that means), but you should not doubt their sincerity. At the same time, do not confuse sincerity with truth. There are countless religions that believe just as strongly that they have the truth.

If you ask a Witness at the door if you must become a Witness in order to be 'saved' from the Day of Judgment (known to Witnesses as Armageddon), they will in most cases give you a vague answer. Witnesses learn that it is bad form to say that only Witnesses will be rescued, so they will say something like, "Only God can judge the human heart".

Some Witnesses do actually believe in a non-exclusive salvation, as they are never explicitly told otherwise. In practice, however, Witnesses are constantly told that their religion is the true religion, and that God despises all the rest. The implication is obvious enough.

While Witnesses pay lip service to the idea that God may possibly approve of some non-Witnesses, their attitude suggests that God favors them alone. This will not be immediately evident.

In general, Witnesses at your door will tell you what you want to hear. They want to avoid (to use their terminology) "stumbling" you. While their intentions seem good, this can lead them to misrepresentation.

Witnesses are careful when asked about controversial aspects of their religion, such as blood transfusions, disfellowshipping, or failed predictions. Most questions about these matters will be dismissed with a laugh and a wave: "Oh, no, you've heard wrong! It's not like that at all!"

This can happen even if you've got it precisely right. Witnesses are so careful about 'stumbling' people that they are willing to white-wash their beliefs (even in the presence of another Witness).

You might call such evasion "lying" or "false pretenses". To a Witness, though, you're simply not ready for the whole truth. They give you the simple version first, in order to save you from the clutches of Satan.

Let us not be too critical of this behavior. Who amongst us has not done something similar, bending the truth to get our point across?

While talking about how bad the world is, the Witnesses may ask you if you've had any problems of your own. If you have one, they have the cure. Has a relative passed away recently? You'll get to see them after the Resurrection. Have you been divorced? You can find solace and company with good people -- such as the Witnesses.

Even good things can be used as a basis for fear. Have you just been blessed with a baby? Aren't you worried about your child growing up with the world in the state it is in?

Incidentally, Witnesses do not express their invitation so bluntly as to say, "You should join the Witnesses". The invitation is implied (rather than stated) by offering their way as the ideal solution to any real, imagined or exaggerated problems.

In order to create a need for a 'solution', the Witnesses are experts at depressing people. They bemoan a perceived growth in evil and the general falling-apart of everything. They also highlight the flaws of "the governments of the world" (although they tend not to criticize specific governments, as they are theoretically non-political).

No matter how optimistic you are, they will try to get you to admit that things are worse than they ever were. You can speak enthusiastically about marvelous advances in science, medicine, tolerance and human rights, but they will rebuff you every time with a counter-example of rampant horror. At this stage in their presentation, they do not want you to be cheerful.

Another common target is other religions and their clergy. Some Witnesses can talk for hours about scandals involving men of the cloth. For example, they will take one story of a priest who molests a child and use that as evidence of how bad his entire religion must be. This kind of generalization is, of course, a cheap debating ploy, but many people don't instantly recognize it as such.

The Witnesses want you to see that all other religions are corrupt, and will cite various Bible verses to show that they -- and only they -- are living up to God's expectations.

Once again, you should be careful not to take their statements at face value. For example, Witnesses are fond of reminding us that they do not go to war, and some of them say (and believe) that there are no other religions with the same policy. (Besides the Witnesses, the Quakers are also well known as conscientious objectors.)

The Witnesses do not really expect you to 'see the light' on the basis of a single visit. If you show interest in their message, they will arrange to make a return visit.

If you continue to express interest, they will suggest that your questions could be answered more effectively through a more formal arrangement -- a free Bible study given on a weekly basis.

Since these seem like pleasant people, you may agree to these regular visits. It's nice to have company over, and just about everybody is interested in knowing more about the Bible.

The "Bible study" is in fact a book study. You will be introduced to a beginners' text. A Bible will be sitting on the table during the study, but most of the time will be spent on the study book. They will explain that the Bible is, after all, long and complex, so this is a more organized way to learn what the Bible really says.

Here are some of the things to look for when Jehovah's Witnesses visit you...

Enhancement of natural fears
Evasiveness about actual purpose of visit (discussion versus conversion)
Selective, unsupported statements about the state of the world
An attractive promise of paradise
Advantage taken of your politeness and relative lack of training
Skill in overcoming or derailing objections
Genuine belief in what they preach
Implication that their way is the only way
Misrepresentation and white-washing of sensitive doctrinal issues
Citing bad experiences as reasons to join them
Turning good experiences into reasons to join them
Pessimism about humanity's future (unless God intervenes)
Criticism of government and clergy
Arrangement of return visits and (eventually) a Bible study

Once you have agreed to participate in a free Bible study, you will be involved in a process that is designed to encourage you to go to Witness meetings and eventually get baptised. However, this long-range goal is not yet mentioned. The emphasis is on learning "what the Bible says".

Indeed, if you ask your teacher about her motivation (we'll assume here that your study conductor is female), she will say something like, "I'm just here to help you understand the Bible". If you ask, "Are you trying to get me to join your religion?" she will probably have a diplomatic answer, such as, "That's your decision, not mine".

Incidentally, the free Bible study is the only place where a woman can formally teach you about Witness doctrine. Witnesses do not permit women to speak from the podium at their Kingdom Hall (meeting place), although women are allowed to put on short plays to demonstrate some point of doctrine.

The study conductor will usually ask you to pre-read the material in the study book for the next lesson. In such case, you will probably be asked to underline the answers to the canned questions that appear at the bottom of each page. She will explain that this is for quick reference during the study, or in case a family member wants to know what you have learned. This pre-reading and underlining is an effective study technique, but it is also a subtle and powerful indoctrination method. This will be discussed in more detail later, in the section "Repetition and Emphasis".

The New World Translation

Unless you specifically request otherwise, your teacher will use the New World Translation of the Bible, which is the official version of the scriptures used by the Witnesses. It is a reasonably accurate translation of the Bible (as far as I am qualified to judge), but certain verses that seem to contradict Witness doctrine have been translated with their teachings in mind. If there are two possible translations, the New World Translation will always choose the one closest to Witness doctrine, even if the reasoning behind the rendering is somewhat shaky.

Your study conductor may explain that she likes to use the New World Translation because it is written in plain English. This is a fair statement; the NWT is quite readable. However, if you use the NWT as your only reference, you will never know when an alternative translation is at odds with what the Witnesses believe.

In one sense, the New World Translation of the Bible is superior to most other translations, but at the same time its strength becomes its worst affliction. This issue involves the use of the name "Jehovah".

Most translations replace God's name by "Lord" (usually in uppercase, i.e. "LORD"). This tradition derives from the Jewish rule against speaking God's name. (This no doubt relates to concerns about "taking God's name in vain" -- one of the Ten Commandments).

"Better safe than sorry" seems to be the attitude of most translators. So deeply ingrained is this avoidance of the Divine Name that one can not find any original texts that have the name spelled out in its entirety. As a result, the original pronunciation of God's name is not known for sure.

The original Hebrew did not use vowels, so God's name was rendered as YHVH. Eventually, the Masoretic translation of the Bible inserted special vowel symbols. However, when it came to the name YHVH, the translators used the vowels from "Adonai" (meaning "Lord") as a warning to the reader to say "Lord" instead of the Divine Name. Thus, YHVH became YaHoVaH.

Some scholars argue that the name should be pronounced Yahveh, while others prefer Yahweh. The matter is probably impossible to prove one way or the other.

For an example of this problem, compare the wording of John 1:1 in the NWT with the wording in almost any other Bible. The Witnesses are non-trinitarian -- they do not believe that God is 'three in one'. Their Bible has been produced with this in mind. There are arguments for and against the NWT's rendering of John 1:1, but few translators agree with the choice made by the Witnesses.

The Witnesses believe they are the only "true" religion, and your study conductor will bring up several points of contention to demonstrate that only the Witnesses have God's guidance.

For example, the Witnesses will attempt to prove to you that they are the only ones who are literally preaching "in God's name". They say that no other religion uses God's name so frequently, or with such passion. This seems like a compelling argument, though one must wonder what God would think of having his name mispronounced.

The "use of God's name" is very important to Witnesses, and your study conductor will make it into a major issue. Indeed, as your study progresses, you will find that your study conductor 'proves' the validity of her religion by focusing on issues that seem insignificant to most people.

The effect of receiving this 'information' can be profound. If you agree with the study conductor that these matters are of great significance, you will inevitably notice that only the Witnesses care about such things.

By such means do the Witnesses convince you that they are the only religion that is doing what God wants.

Selected Verses

Almost any book written about the Bible will support its assertions with a list of Bible verses that you are supposed to look up. While it is hard to imagine an alternative to this approach, it does mean that each verse is plucked from the stream of writing, so its relationship to the surrounding scripture is lost.

Witness books are no exception. In many cases, the verse is clear enough; "Thou shall not kill" can hardly be read two ways, and people already know that it comes from the Ten Commandments. However, in some cases the associated text can alter the meaning of a verse drastically.

For example, the Witnesses have a doctrine regarding "The Faithful and Discreet Slave" parable told by Jesus. By selecting certain verses, they can back up their idiosyncratic interpretation (which is that Jesus was pointing to the existence of special men of wisdom, particularly the Watchtower Society). However, if you read the parable (which on closer inspection turns out to be two parables), you will spot details that have not been fitted into the Witness doctrine. (To see for yourself, read Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25:30.)

By taking verses here and there, it is possible to make the Bible say anything. The Witnesses accuse other religions of doing this, and the other religions point their fingers right back at the Witnesses.

The study book you are using in the free Bible study will sometimes quote the actual verse it is talking about. This makes it impossible to see the scripture that accompanies it. Once again, this is a problem that affects all writings about the Bible -- not just the books of the Witnesses -- but it does lead one to ask if something called a "Bible study" should, in fact, use the Bible as its primary source material.

If you ask your teacher why you are using a book and not the Bible itself, she will probably repeat the argument that it is faster and easier to use a study book. Thus, the Bible does not get to speak for itself. It does not stand or fall on its own merits. Rather, it will be used to 'prove' the assertions made by the book.
Of course, one may ask a touchy question: is the Bible a perfect book, with the final say on all matters? The Witnesses believe that the Bible is to be read literally, except when it explicitly states that it is speaking figuratively.

If you do not share this belief, it is unlikely that the Witnesses will offer to study with you. Their unquestioned (and non-negotiable) belief is that the Bible contains no errors, legends, oral tradition or purely human opinions.

The Watchtower study books and magazines are powerful tools for indoctrination. They concentrate the mind on the teachings of the Governing Body (the men who set the doctrine for the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society). You are not encouraged to infer conclusions using only the Bible.

While these books and tracts (known by Witnesses as "the literature") frequently refer to the Bible, a typical Witness will read hundreds of words of "literature" for every word of Bible text. So even though they become well acquainted with the Bible, they become even more familiar with the interpretations of the Governing Body.

This is neither obvious nor evident to most Witnesses, because the literature can cover the same subjects repeatedly, using different words. The Bible's comments, on the other hand, are 'cast in stone'. So when Witnesses think about a particular issue, they will remember a few relevant Bible verses, and subconsciously recall reams of interpretation espoused by the Governing Body.

Repetition is a potent method used to drive home the interpretations of the Governing Body. Few people notice that the same questions and concepts are repeated over and over. Yet this constant emphasis on certain ideas serves as a kind of 'Witness Catechism'. Let us see how this works during the free Bible study.

A day or two before the study, each article or chapter being studied is first read through privately by the student. Questions appear at the bottom of each page, corresponding to each paragraph in the text. The student then underlines the answers. Almost invariably, each question has a one-sentence answer in the paragraph. Finding the answer means scanning the paragraph a second time. Underlining the sentence means reading it a third time.

During the study, your study conductor will read the paragraph out loud (or ask you to do it). This makes the fourth time you've heard each of the underlined sentences. She will then ask you for the answer, which you will read from the book.

Thus, you will have read the answer five times before you are done with it.

If you're an average reader, you will have memorized the sentence by the second or third read. Your attention will wander slightly during the fourth or fifth read. Herein lies the danger: you will not be paying attention to what is being said.

This is rote learning, such as you use to memorize the multiplication tables. By repeating the same answers over and over, you place them deeply into your memory. You actually become bored with the answer and wish to move on to something else. As a result, you do not question the answer.

The effect is almost hypnotic. When you are in a trance-like state, (brought on by boredom or repetition), your mind goes into 'automatic mode', and reactions are instinctive rather than critical.

Actually, the Watchtower literature is quite well written, given its purpose of informing a wide range of people at various levels of education.
This is an admirable accomplishment, except that once you have mastered the basic material, there is nothing deep for you to study. The heavy thinking takes place at Watchtower headquarters, and the rank-and-file members are strongly discouraged from exploring alternative interpretations. Indeed, they may be cast out of the congregation for doing so.

One could analyse Watchtower literature in many ways to show how it bends one's mind to accepting what is written without question, but that is outside the scope of this article. I will limit myself to describing one more technique.

Watchtower literature has a peculiar tendency to ask a question and then answer it immediately afterwards. It does this relentlessly, and the question/answer combination does not give you time to think about the answer you've been offered, since by the time you've read the answer, you're well into the next sentence.

Here is an example, taken at random by flipping open a copy of the September 1 1996 issue of The Watchtower. On page 14 it says:

What is the purpose of this covenant? It is to produce a nation of kings and priests to bless all mankind. (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 5:10) The Mosaic Law covenant never produced this nation in the fullest sense...
Ignore the actual text for a moment and notice how the question is asked, then answered, then followed by a string of verses to look up in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures. If you decide to look these up, you will be looking for proof that the statement just made was correct. More likely, you will do what most people do: "blip" over the verses, thinking, "I guess they apply or they wouldn't have listed them", and move on to the next sentence.

In neither case will you stop and say, "Wait a minute, was that assertion correct?" This is especially true if you encounter the statement during a bible study or meeting; nobody is going to wait for you to weigh the pros and cons.

Of course, all commentaries must make assertions and then back them up. But why does Watchtower literature use this particular question/answer style so frequently?

One possibility is that the Governing Body deliberately invented the question/answer techniques (i.e. "underlining" and "immediate answers") to hypnotize people and bend them to their will. I do not believe the Governing Body is that cynical.

A more credible reason is that these techniques reflect an element of Witness culture. Witnesses acquire the belief that for every question there is one "true" answer. If the Governing Body (speaking through the literature) poses a question, they are expected to provide an answer. Witnesses do not like "gray areas". One of the chief benefits of being a Witness is that you have answers for everything.

Many of the answers may not be true, but they are answers. In a life full of doubt and uncertainty, a Witness gains enormous peace of mind simply by believing that there are men who "know". They may occasionally have to live contrary to their nature, or ignore a nagging doubt, but the reward is a feeling of certainty.

In other words, the Governing Body is giving the Witnesses precisely what they want to have.

After a few months of free Bible study, your teacher will start to exert some pressure on you to "progress" to a "greater level of participation".

You may be invited to join her in the door-to-door preaching work, as an observer. "It's not as hard as you think," she may say (and indeed, it is much less stressful than most people imagine). Nevertheless, your first door-to-door escapade is a sort of initiation rite. Although you may hang back and not do any talking, you are out in the street with the Jehovah's Witnesses. Your mere presence is a statement to the world, and to yourself.

Moreover, as you encounter some nasty people at the door, you will inevitably form a bond of shared suffering (or persecution, to use the Witness term). This is the beginning of the "us and them" mentality, which is carefully cultivated by the Witnesses.

You may not feel ready to observe the door-to-door preaching work. There are other ways that your study conductor can influence your attitudes, bringing them into closer accord with those of the Witnesses.

If it is the right time of year, your teacher will almost certainly invite you to attend the "Memorial" This is an inoffensive, rather dry ritual which takes place once a year in the Witness's Kingdom Hall (meeting place). Your teacher will offer the invitation in the hope that you will be inspired by the Christian spirit of the people at the Kingdom Hall.

Once your study conductor feels you are ready, she will slowly introduce you to the restrictions placed upon Witnesses. She will approach this matter gently, though. She may explain that "These are the principles that a good Christian follows while cultivating a clean conscience".

For example, you will be discouraged (or "warned") against reading material that was not produced by the Watchtower Society. "These people do not have Jehovah's guidance," you will be told. At this point in the indoctrination process, you will probably take this advice to heart.

You will be given further advice about what television programs are "appropriate" (another code word, meaning "Acceptable to the Watchtower Society"). You may even receive advice on your attire, in which case your wardrobe may take a sharp turn towards the conservative. You don't want to give a bad witness to people by the way you dress, do you?

These seemingly well-intentioned tidbits of advice are the first steps in wresting away control of your life. It may not seem like much of a sacrifice at the time, but it is your introduction to a new mode of behavior, in which the Watchtower Society expresses its opinions on the smallest detail of your existence: what you read, what you wear, what you watch, what you eat, who you listen to, how you conduct your sex life, even how you should think.

Your friends and family will certainly notice these changes in your lifestyle and demeanor. They may applaud the positive changes (including your happier attitude, if you feel you have finally discovered the true religion). However, people resist change in themselves and their friends. Even the positive improvements may be criticized (not to mention the restrictions on your freedom and self-determination).

Your study conductor will warn you that this opposition comes directly from Satan, who does not want you to learn "the truth". This revelation may give you a certain sense of pride, as you suddenly seem to be embroiled in the ultimate struggle between good and evil. You may also be impressed by your teacher's apparent knowledge -- and ability to predict -- Satan's tricks.

At another level, though, something sinister is going on. You are being taught to see your friends and family as a means through which the Devil can "get you". If your dearest friends suggest that you think twice before joining the Witnesses, you may question their motives: are they really concerned about my welfare, or is this just another of Satan's tricks?

Once you start thinking this way, the world begins to separate into two sides: the good people (i.e. the Witnesses) and the bad people (i.e. non-Witnesses). This change in attitude is barely noticeable at first, but its very subtlety is what makes it so dangerous.

This, alas, is precisely what the Witnesses want. They need to drive a wedge between the "old" you and the "new" you. Once you have become immersed in their phantasmal view of the universe, you will see hidden motives and veiled perils everywhere. Satan is waiting just around the next corner! He's lurking in the walls!

You may find it hard to imagine that you could ever change so much. However, once the Witnesses have caused you to doubt the good intentions of your friends and family, you gradually move into an empty place. The only ones who can fill that emptiness are Jehovah's Witnesses.

When you progress from the free Bible study to attending regular meetings at the Kingdom Hall, it naturally makes everybody in the congregation happy. You will be accorded effusive special attention -- it's almost like a honeymoon!

This can be a moving experience. If you were previously in another church or organization, you may have found yourself in the background -- just one of many members. Now, though, helpful, smiling people surround you. You're on center stage!

You're also at somewhat of a disadvantage. This initial outpouring of affection may be genuine and heartfelt, but it can also be confusing and misleading.

The care you are shown when you first arrive at a Kingdom Hall may lead you to believe that you have found a place where there is "true love for everybody". However, it is easy to confuse a sudden outburst of infatuation for "the real thing". While the Witnesses are genuinely glad to see a potential convert, they have a mission to carry out: they must help "save" you by getting you to keep coming back to the meetings.

Witnesses will chat amiably with you, seeking common ground, smile, extend compliments, listen attentively, smile some more, and say virtually anything to keep you in a good mood. This is what is known as "giving a good witness". They want to impress you with sheer wonderfulness so that surely you will see that you have entered a House of God.

Just about every religion does the same thing.

During this honeymoon, congregational elders will pat you on the back (literally or figuratively) about your "excellent progress". You may receive dinner invitations. Somebody may happen to remember they have a suit they'd outgrown that would be just perfect for you. Who could help but be overwhelmed?

Alas, as the saying goes, "no honeymoon lasts forever". As with all relationships, you can not expect the original passion to continue unabated.

When you start attending the Kingdom Hall meetings, you will receive plenty of "uplifting encouragement". It is only natural that the Witnesses want you to see the good side of their religion, while playing down the less appealing parts (such as restrictions and judgments).

At first, the Witnesses will agree (albeit provisionally) with just about anything you say. Yes, I can see how you'd see it that way. This apparent tolerance for new ideas is, unfortunately, not going to last; it is just another example of the feigned reasonableness described earlier. As you will later discover, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses does not accept critical input.

At this point in your visit to the Kingdom Hall, the Witnesses might start asking you subtle questions about the Bible. Unless you are a Biblical scholar, you will not be able to answer these questions, but the Witnesses will. Whatever one might say about the Witnesses' interpretations about the Bible, their raw knowledge of the Bible is not in dispute.

By demonstrating their skill at Bible-wrangling, the Witnesses build up the impression that they can answer any question you could possibly ask. This is a critical part of the indoctrination, though it is poignantly ironic because the Witnesses do not know they are caught up in the same game.

What is sociologically interesting about Jehovah's Witnesses is that they derive psychological satisfaction from perceiving a coherent pattern in their beliefs regardless of possible inner inconsistencies, and that, even if they do notice inconsistencies, they can then abrogate personal responsibility for their own beliefs in the safe conviction that someone, somewhere in the Watchtower Society must be able to solve the problem.
It makes sense: every Witness who joined as an adult was given the impression that the answers are always out there somewhere. If they can't find an answer (they reason), they must not be looking hard enough. In any case, they can always fall back on the last-ditch solution mentioned in "The Trumpet of Prophecy" (same page):

An implicit premise in the argument is usually that, if the perceived inconsistencies were real, then the beliefs would not have gained widespread popularity.

This is the point at which the indoctrination moves away from assertions and proofs and enters into the realm of faith. The answers you sought are theoretically out there, but you may not be able to find them. Difficult questions may be dismissed as "pointless speculation". If some doctrinal point is really troubling you, you will usually be advised by your study conductor to "Wait upon Jehovah"

With this almost imperceptible change in emphasis, your allegiance is transferred from the Bible to the Watchtower Society. This will become the new theme for your conversion: the Watchtower Society is the source of all answers, and even if the answers are sometimes inconsistent or just plain wrong, they will be corrected "in due time".

As you move closer to becoming a full member of Jehovah's Witnesses, you will rely less on the Bible and more on the statements made by the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society. The aura of infallibility that surrounds the Bible starts to cast some of its glow upon the dozen men in Brooklyn who decide what the Witnesses will consider "The Truth".

These men do not explicitly claim to be infallible, of course. Their track record makes this claim impossible. Rather, they tone down their claim to authority by claiming to be God's spirit-directed representatives on Earth.

The longer you are a Witness, the more you will see these men as virtual prophets (although they avoid using the term "prophet"). You will tend to shrug off their errors as "human imperfection", while nevertheless granting them full authority over your life. This is a gradual process, picked up mostly by interactions with other Witnesses. As mentioned earlier, (see "Asked and Answered"), Witnesses crave certainty, and will cling to the illusion that they have found it, even if today's version of "The Truth" is slightly different from yesterday's.

As a regular visitor to the Kingdom Hall, you will be gently encouraged to participate in Witness activities, such as door-to-door preaching. If you go along, your path will be smooth, and you will be accepted as someone who is "progressing well". If you hold back, though, the gentleness will start to take on a bit of an edge. Don't you know that we are living in the Last Days? Don't you know that this is something Jesus prophesized that we would do?

With further resistance comes increased pressure. When you stand before God in judgment, would you want to be found lacking?

Your tender visions of paradise may start to fade a little, as you see that there's a "performance issue" at stake. You have not been "forgiven and reborn" (as many Christian religions believe), but will have to work every day for your salvation. You will never know if you are "saved" until Jehovah tells you.

You are now in a darker situation than before. You apparently have to do what the Watchtower Society says, or you will be destroyed.

Some people "bail out" of the indoctrination process at this point, but are left with a nagging feeling that they have turned their back on God. You may choose to follow the lead of the Watchtower Society. After all (you may reason), have they ever lied to you before?

At this point, your study conductor will mention "the logical next step" -- one that will improve your chances of being preserved from destruction. She will suggest that it's time for you to get baptised.

Baptism is a water-immersion ceremony that also involves making several vows -- including one to accept the guidance of the Watchtower Society. These baptisms are often conducted in large groups ("mass baptisms"). This delights the Witnesses by demonstrating the growth of their religion. A side-effect (if you harbor any remaining doubts) is that it is very difficult to change your mind at the last minute when you are surround by hundreds or thousands of Witnesses.

Once baptised, you are a Jehovah's Witness, and will be expected to follow all the rules and attend the numerous meetings. At the same time, the "love-fest" that greeted you when you first arrived will be substantially muted. Indeed, you will now be expected to show the same enthusiasm for newcomers that you found so thrilling. If you feel a bit hypocritical about doing so, you can always blame your bad feeling on Satan.

Here is a summary of what happens as Jehovah's Witnesses groom you to become baptised...

Avoidance of talk about "joining" the religion
Pre-reading and underlining the study text
Use of the New World Translation of the Bible
More time spent on the study book than the Bible
No encouragement to study the context of a quoted scripture
Elevation of arcane issues to matters of great importance
Insistence upon the inerrancy of the Bible
Giving "the" answer immediately after posing a question
Discouraging or postponing debate indefinitely
Intolerance of gray areas; things are thus and so
Holding out the lure of "certainty" -- answers for everything
Encouragement to participate in certain Witness activities
Gradual introduction of restrictions placed upon Witnesses
Enthusiastic support when you attend a Kingdom Hall
Reinforcing the impression that they have all the answers
Gradual transfer of allegiance to the Watchtower Society
Baptism
Door-to-door preaching, and regular attendance of meetings

The Watchtower indoctrination process never ends. There are several weekly meetings to attend, magazines and books to study, and you are also expected to do a minimum of 10 hours of door-to-door preaching each month.

As you move away from "worldly contacts" (i.e. your old friends and family) and get closer to the Witnesses, you will find that you are spending more and more time being exposed to their world-view. Since we are social animals, it is inevitable that our own views will slowly come into accord with the group.

All this leaves you with very little time to think critically about what you are being taught -- even assuming you want to think critically about such things.

You see, at this point you have made new friends and have changed your life. You have places to go, people to see, and there's always that "wondrous hope for the future". You'll hesitate to consider that some things about your new religion aren't quite right.

If you do ask if there might be another religion that is just as good or (heaven forbid) even better, you'll be asked, "Who taught you all the things you know now?" This is known by ex-Witnesses as the "To Whom Shall We Go?" argument, in reference to John 6:60-69.

In that particular scripture, Jesus asked his apostles if they would leave him because his preaching had become controversial. Simon Peter replied, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast words of eternal life. And we have believed and know that thou art the Holy One of God."

New Witnesses eventually end up thinking that way about the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. It is the one with "words of eternal life", and they "have believed". Moreover, they "know" that the Watchtower Society is divinely guided.

This belief becomes so strong that Witnesses sometimes blur the distinction between the Society and God. In their world-view, their religion is a "theocracy" (government by God), with the Watchtower Society as the earthly representative. Just as an ambassador speaks authoritatively for his government, so too does the Watchtower Society speak for theirs.

It's hard to pay homage (in action or in attitude) to something or someone that you can not see. The Watchtower Society, on the other hand, is a worldwide bureaucracy with a clear structure and a known geographic center (Brooklyn, New York). The Brooklyn headquarters are a kind of "Mecca" to Witnesses. While I don't want to push that analogy too far, I believe that visiting the headquarters is like a Muslim hajj for Witnesses. Some Witnesses plan their vacations around visiting "Bethel" (a term used for branch offices in general, and Brooklyn in particular).

Some have likened this to "bowing down before men". It's certainly human nature to want to have a tangible representation of something ineffable. Significantly, the Watchtower Society is often referred to as "God's visible organization". Consider this quote from page 22 of the January 15, 1983 issue of the Watchtower magazine:

How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization.
In just two sentences, the article describes what Witnesses perceive to be a danger to "right-thinking" Christians. Independent thinking may lead one to doubt the authority of the Watchtower Society.

In the long term, resistance against the Society is seen to be resistance against God. With such a lofty mission, the Society believes it is empowered to exert enormous control over the minds and hearts of its followers.

You might think that "contact with God by proxy" would upset the rank-and-file, but it rarely does. They have accepted the Society as God's channel of wisdom, just as devout Catholics see the Pope as their channel to God. The Witnesses certainly did not invent the idea of deferring to men, leaving the "heavy spiritual stuff" to those who are expected to be better qualified.

Nevertheless, some Witnesses do eventually rebel against this arrangement. The Watchtower Society has a way to prevent this kind of thinking from becoming a trend. The Elders' Guide ("Pay Attention to Yourselves and All the Flock") has this to say:

Apostasy includes action taken against true worship of Jehovah or his established order among his dedicated people. Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates.
You'll notice how Biblical truth is very nearly equated with that which is "taught by Jehovah's Witnesses".

People who persist in independent thinking are taken through several steps. First:

Those with sincere doubts should be helped, dealt with mercifully.
This is a reasoned attempt to gently divert someone from forming their own opinions about Biblical matters. If this does not work, a variety of options are available to the Elders, such as judicial committees, public reproof, figuratively "marking" the person, unilaterally disassociating someone (i.e. saying they've left), or disfellowshipping (i.e. excommunication).

Disfellowshipping -- essentially, throwing the person out of the worldwide Jehovah's Witnesses fellowship -- is the most devastating personal blow of the methods listed so far. Yet all of these techniques serve as object lessons to others who may harbor some doubts. They quickly learn to keep quiet. They do not wish to return to the outside world, which by now they perceive to be an evil, loveless place.

These tactics enforce consensus. One reason that Witnesses believe they have God's blessing is that everybody seems to agree on the same things. How could it be otherwise if those who raise objections get pushed away?

Even the fear of disfellowshipping pales in comparison to the prospect of being destroyed at Armageddon, and being deprived of eternal life in a paradise earth.

There's a final, deeper motivation to remain a Witness. Once you have identified the Watchtower Society as God's chosen channel to humanity, turning your back on them is tantamount to rejecting God.

This type of fear is so deeply rooted in our psyches that it is impossible to express in words. If you do leave the Witnesses, you will find yourself alone in the most profound sense imaginable. This can be made even worse if (as is often the case) you have family members in the Witnesses who completely cut you off, to avoid catching the plague that has apparently invaded you.

Witnesses are presented with an elite social milieu, a feeling of certainty, and a hope for better things. These are things that most people dearly want to find.

confuse

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Reply #27 posted 12/30/03 3:35pm

katt

cry so horrible what is happening around the world, so many people dieing, so upsetting. pray for everyone

Much Love 2 everyone hug

P.S I'm ignoring above boxed

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Reply #28 posted 12/30/03 3:36pm

jn2

disbelief the Bible was not written by Nostradamus

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Reply #29 posted 12/30/03 7:32pm

SensualMelody

Freechild, thanks for starting such a nice discussion.

heart Melody

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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