French seek to ban religious symbols

INTERESTING TURN OF EVENTS IN FRANCE. ANY COMMENTS?


The Associated Press
Updated: 9:10 a.m. ET Dec. 11, 2003
PARIS - A French panel said Thursday that it favors banning Islamic head scarves and other religious symbols, including Jewish skullcaps, in schools.

Several girls have been expelled from public schools this year for wearing Islamic head scarves, fueling a debate on separation of church and state. Current rules forbid “ostentatious” symbols of religion in public schools and other public buildings.

The blue-ribbon panel agreed that France should impose a law banning “obvious” religious and political symbols from public schools.

Such a law would forbid students from wearing headscarves, yarmulkes or large-sized Christian crosses.

“Secularism is the separation of church and state, but it is also the respect of differences,” Bernard Stasi, head of the panel, told a news conference.

He said the law proposed by the commission was intended so people of all religions could “live together in public places.”

President Jacques Chirac, who appointed the panel, said he would address the nation next week with his own conclusions. He has made clear his opposition to blatant religious symbols in the classroom.

Christian and Jewish religious leaders have said they are opposed to a law banning head scarves from schools, instead expressing concern about better integrating the Muslim community.

Proponents of a law say that students who wear Muslim head scarves to school, just like civil servants who cover their heads on the job, are challenging France’s secular underpinnings.

France has an estimated 5 million Muslims, the most in Western Europe.

If this was the USA there'd be riots.

Please check the thread "Why can't Americans be tolerant": http://www.prince.org/msg/105/73166

I posted two rather detailed replies trying to explain the rationale behing this decision, in - I hope - a neutral and informative way. Feel free to comment on it.

Peace

It would not happen in the UK either, this is total madness, what are they afraid off, this world is going mad...

katt said:

If the scarf wasn't tied to the oppression of women, and let's face it folks there is no other valid reason other than forcing women to hide and be subjected to the edicts of men, then I might view it in a different light.

I support the separation of church and state all the way. I also support freedom of religion. It doesn't belong in schools and govermnent institutions.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

DaFunkFreak said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

katt said:

jn2 said:

As I said in the other thread, it is another attempt at destroying the individual in the name of the nation. America is headed in this direction and god help us all if we get there. It's another attempt at making everyone equal. The greatest tool of the Communists.

There is no reason for the government to forbid somebody from wearing a symbol of their own religion.

coqui said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

coqui said:

katt said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

It would not happen in the UK either, this is total madness, what are they afraid off, this world is going mad...

another ignorant statement - I'm too tired to explain

i wasnt rude 2 u!!

I see everyone has the right to beleive what they want and practice in a way that is acording there beleifs. Educating people about each others beleifs brings an understanding.

For an example:
In the school my children are in they teach every religion under the sun, they allow everyone to practice there way, others can join in if they want to, no seperation at all.

The children are very happy well ajusted and educated, they are not ignorant, they are incouraged to ask questions, all get along mighty fine without prejudice. No ignorance need be, now explain to me how this works mighty fine and everyone is happy about this..

I have 3 children that have been brought up this way and all there friends to ,they are all happy, well ajusted, loving, tollerant and understanding, children/adults.

Oh well all to there own, and sometimes ignorance is bliss, u said ur too tired to explain i am too or to argue over this, whats right for u might be wrong for me.

Peace

.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 18 15:23:02 PST 2003 by katt]

jn2 said:

katt said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

It would not happen in the UK either, this is total madness, what are they afraid off, this world is going mad...

another ignorant statement - I'm too tired to explain

i wasnt rude 2 u!!

I see everyone has the right to beleive what they want and practice in a way that is acording there beleifs. Educating people about each others beleifs brings an understanding.

For an example:
In the school my children are in they teach every religion under the sun, they allow everyone to practice there way, others can join in if they want to, no seperation at all.

The children are very happy well ajusted and educated, they are not ignorant, they are incouraged to ask questions, all get along mighty fine without prejudice. No ignorance need be, now explain to me how this works mighty fine and everyone is happy about this..

I have 3 children that have been brought up this way and all there friends to ,they are all happy, well ajusted, loving, tollerant and understanding, children/adults.

Oh well all to there own, and sometimes ignorance is bliss, u said ur too tired to explain i am too or to argue over this, whats right for u might be wrong for me.

Peace

.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 18 15:23:02 PST 2003 by katt]

sorry but don't you know what the Islamic head scarves is about (esp about women rights)?

katt said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

It would not happen in the UK either, this is total madness, what are they afraid off, this world is going mad...

another ignorant statement - I'm too tired to explain

i wasnt rude 2 u!!

I see everyone has the right to beleive what they want and practice in a way that is acording there beleifs. Educating people about each others beleifs brings an understanding.

For an example:
In the school my children are in they teach every religion under the sun, they allow everyone to practice there way, others can join in if they want to, no seperation at all.

The children are very happy well ajusted and educated, they are not ignorant, they are incouraged to ask questions, all get along mighty fine without prejudice. No ignorance need be, now explain to me how this works mighty fine and everyone is happy about this..

I have 3 children that have been brought up this way and all there friends to ,they are all happy, well ajusted, loving, tollerant and understanding, children/adults.

Oh well all to there own, and sometimes ignorance is bliss, u said ur too tired to explain i am too or to argue over this, whats right for u might be wrong for me.

Peace

.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 18 15:23:02 PST 2003 by katt]

muslims womens who aren't covered are considered as "bad muslims" and there are lots of pressure against them and many others bad things (forced marriages..

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

coqui said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I support the separation of church and state all the way. I also support freedom of religion. It doesn't belong in schools and govermnent institutions.

Come on now Supa. That is a silly statement.

"You can wear your religious garb anywhere you want... unless you are in a school or government building, then you have to take it off."

That is the opposite of "freedom of religion".

But it is the separation of church and state. Remember that ridiculous case in Florida where the woman wanted to take her ID picture with a veil covering her face? Separate the 2, that's how I feel. Worship how you want when you are in the place to worship. Leave it out of the school and leave it out of the government.

coqui said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

It would not happen in the UK either, this is total madness, what are they afraid off, this world is going mad...

another ignorant statement - I'm too tired to explain

i wasnt rude 2 u!!

I see everyone has the right to beleive what they want and practice in a way that is acording there beleifs. Educating people about each others beleifs brings an understanding.

For an example:
In the school my children are in they teach every religion under the sun, they allow everyone to practice there way, others can join in if they want to, no seperation at all.

The children are very happy well ajusted and educated, they are not ignorant, they are incouraged to ask questions, all get along mighty fine without prejudice. No ignorance need be, now explain to me how this works mighty fine and everyone is happy about this..

I have 3 children that have been brought up this way and all there friends to ,they are all happy, well ajusted, loving, tollerant and understanding, children/adults.

Oh well all to there own, and sometimes ignorance is bliss, u said ur too tired to explain i am too or to argue over this, whats right for u might be wrong for me.

Peace

.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 18 15:23:02 PST 2003 by katt]

sorry but don't you know what the Islamic head scarves is about (esp about women rights)?

Do tell us then. Why do women need to be covered?

DaFunkFreak said:

katt said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

It would not happen in the UK either, this is total madness, what are they afraid off, this world is going mad...

another ignorant statement - I'm too tired to explain

i wasnt rude 2 u!!

I see everyone has the right to beleive what they want and practice in a way that is acording there beleifs. Educating people about each others beleifs brings an understanding.

For an example:
In the school my children are in they teach every religion under the sun, they allow everyone to practice there way, others can join in if they want to, no seperation at all.

The children are very happy well ajusted and educated, they are not ignorant, they are incouraged to ask questions, all get along mighty fine without prejudice. No ignorance need be, now explain to me how this works mighty fine and everyone is happy about this..

I have 3 children that have been brought up this way and all there friends to ,they are all happy, well ajusted, loving, tollerant and understanding, children/adults.

Oh well all to there own, and sometimes ignorance is bliss, u said ur too tired to explain i am too or to argue over this, whats right for u might be wrong for me.

Peace

.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 18 15:23:02 PST 2003 by katt]

I'm well aware of how English schools deal with religions (my girlfriend's been brought up in Devon) and do also believe that children benefit from being taught "every religion under the sun" as you said. This will hopefully be the case soon in France as well, as this new bill provides precisely for mandatory courses about the history and principles of religions. However, banning veils and other conspicuous religious signs is based as I said on the willingness to favor secularity, so that France does not become a juxtaposition of secluded religious communities. (Favoring secularity has nothing to do with communism per se by the way.) In any case, I do believe that by banning conspicious symbols and organizing "religion courses" at the same time, France has come up with a well-balanced solution to this issue (as it is an issue given France's Republican traditions and values). I hope that this law, once enacted, will increase tolerance and respect among kids, no matter what their religious/ethnic background is.

Off to bed!

Peace.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 18 16:05:57 PST 2003 by DaFunkFreak]

katt said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

It would not happen in the UK either, this is total madness, what are they afraid off, this world is going mad...

another ignorant statement - I'm too tired to explain

i wasnt rude 2 u!!

I see everyone has the right to beleive what they want and practice in a way that is acording there beleifs. Educating people about each others beleifs brings an understanding.

For an example:
In the school my children are in they teach every religion under the sun, they allow everyone to practice there way, others can join in if they want to, no seperation at all.

The children are very happy well ajusted and educated, they are not ignorant, they are incouraged to ask questions, all get along mighty fine without prejudice. No ignorance need be, now explain to me how this works mighty fine and everyone is happy about this..

I have 3 children that have been brought up this way and all there friends to ,they are all happy, well ajusted, loving, tollerant and understanding, children/adults.

Oh well all to there own, and sometimes ignorance is bliss, u said ur too tired to explain i am too or to argue over this, whats right for u might be wrong for me.

Peace

.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 18 15:23:02 PST 2003 by katt]

sorry but don't you know what the Islamic head scarves is about (esp about women rights)?

Do tell us then. Why do women need to be covered?

Some women are more than happy to adeer to there beleifs some are not, there choice do do or not to do, i am all for pro choice on the matter.

I have been to Iran many times a country that woman cover up and i did the same out off repect for there beleifs.

I'm pro choice for all.

http://people.uncw.edu/be...France.htm

DaFunkFreak said:

katt said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

It would not happen in the UK either, this is total madness, what are they afraid off, this world is going mad...

another ignorant statement - I'm too tired to explain

i wasnt rude 2 u!!

I see everyone has the right to beleive what they want and practice in a way that is acording there beleifs. Educating people about each others beleifs brings an understanding.

For an example:
In the school my children are in they teach every religion under the sun, they allow everyone to practice there way, others can join in if they want to, no seperation at all.

The children are very happy well ajusted and educated, they are not ignorant, they are incouraged to ask questions, all get along mighty fine without prejudice. No ignorance need be, now explain to me how this works mighty fine and everyone is happy about this..

I have 3 children that have been brought up this way and all there friends to ,they are all happy, well ajusted, loving, tollerant and understanding, children/adults.

Oh well all to there own, and sometimes ignorance is bliss, u said ur too tired to explain i am too or to argue over this, whats right for u might be wrong for me.

Peace

.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 18 15:23:02 PST 2003 by katt]

sorry but don't you know what the Islamic head scarves is about (esp about women rights)?

Do tell us then. Why do women need to be covered?

Some women are more than happy to adeer to there beleifs some are not, there choice do do or not to do, i am all for pro choice on the matter.

I have been to Iran many times a country that woman cover up and i did the same out off repect for there beleifs.

I'm pro choice for all.

From a purely practical standpoint, do you think it's easy to determine whether a 14-year old girl is wearing a veil because she spiritually wants to or because she is told to do so? I think it's horribly difficult. Certain Muslim girls are under a huge pressure to wear veils, refuse to attend certain classes that contradict their beliefs (sports, science, etc.), to be seated near boys, etc. Don't you think it is up to the State to actually protect these girls? The only risk at stake here is that their parents will not budge and have their girls quit public school and enroll in private Muslims schools (which are scare in France for the time being). That's a real risk. But I guess one must draw a line in the end. The more I think of it, the more I held this subject as a very important and complex subject.

DaFunkFreak said:

katt said:

DaFunkFreak said:

katt said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

It would not happen in the UK either, this is total madness, what are they afraid off, this world is going mad...

another ignorant statement - I'm too tired to explain

i wasnt rude 2 u!!

I see everyone has the right to beleive what they want and practice in a way that is acording there beleifs. Educating people about each others beleifs brings an understanding.

For an example:
In the school my children are in they teach every religion under the sun, they allow everyone to practice there way, others can join in if they want to, no seperation at all.

The children are very happy well ajusted and educated, they are not ignorant, they are incouraged to ask questions, all get along mighty fine without prejudice. No ignorance need be, now explain to me how this works mighty fine and everyone is happy about this..

I have 3 children that have been brought up this way and all there friends to ,they are all happy, well ajusted, loving, tollerant and understanding, children/adults.

Oh well all to there own, and sometimes ignorance is bliss, u said ur too tired to explain i am too or to argue over this, whats right for u might be wrong for me.

Peace

.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 18 15:23:02 PST 2003 by katt]

sorry but don't you know what the Islamic head scarves is about (esp about women rights)?

Do tell us then. Why do women need to be covered?

Some women are more than happy to adeer to there beleifs some are not, there choice do do or not to do, i am all for pro choice on the matter.

I have been to Iran many times a country that woman cover up and i did the same out off repect for there beleifs.

I'm pro choice for all.

From a purely practical standpoint, do you think it's easy to determine whether a 14-year old girl is wearing a veil because she spiritually wants to or because she is told to do so? I think it's horribly difficult. Certain Muslim girls are under a huge pressure to wear veils, refuse to attend certain classes that contradict their beliefs (sports, science, etc.), to be seated near boys, etc. Don't you think it is up to the State to actually protect these girls? The only risk at stake here is that their parents will not budge and have their girls quit public school and enroll in private Muslims schools (which are scare in France for the time being). That's a real risk. But I guess one must draw a line in the end. The more I think of it, the more I held this subject as a very important and complex subject.

How i feel on this subject and what i have done with my own children is to educate them on everything they make there own minds up, i do not force them to do anything they do not want to. A child should be able to express themselfs in how they wish just like any adult and NO adult has a right to push there beleifs onto the child.
This is a very controversial subject and a no win one either. If the governments do not becareful they will come across as if opressing there own people.

jn2 said:

katt said:

jn2 said:

katt said:

It would not happen in the UK either, this is total madness, what are they afraid off, this world is going mad...

another ignorant statement - I'm too tired to explain

i wasnt rude 2 u!!

I see everyone has the right to beleive what they want and practice in a way that is acording there beleifs. Educating people about each others beleifs brings an understanding.

For an example:
In the school my children are in they teach every religion under the sun, they allow everyone to practice there way, others can join in if they want to, no seperation at all.

The children are very happy well ajusted and educated, they are not ignorant, they are incouraged to ask questions, all get along mighty fine without prejudice. No ignorance need be, now explain to me how this works mighty fine and everyone is happy about this..

I have 3 children that have been brought up this way and all there friends to ,they are all happy, well ajusted, loving, tollerant and understanding, children/adults.

Oh well all to there own, and sometimes ignorance is bliss, u said ur too tired to explain i am too or to argue over this, whats right for u might be wrong for me.

Peace

.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 18 15:23:02 PST 2003 by katt]

sorry but don't you know what the Islamic head scarves is about (esp about women rights)?

Would this mean that Sikhs would be forbidden from wearing a turban headdress in public schools in defiance of their beliefs?

Would the same standard apply to the adult teachers as it does to the younger people attending the schools?

I would imagine that such a ruling would at least be challenged ultimately through the European courts.