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Thread started 07/05/03 4:01pm

IceNine

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Since my other christian questions are kind of hard to answer, here is a new question for christians...

Since my other christian questions are kind of hard to answer... here is a new question for christians...

...I might have asked this one before, but it needs to be a new topic.

If god loves everyone and god is just and merciful, how can you reconcile the fact that many children die of horrible diseases? These children have never sinned, nor could they have done anything to anger god, so why do they have to die so horribly?

Would you allow innocent children to die horrible, painful deaths if you were god and loved your creations?

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Reply #1 posted 07/05/03 4:23pm

REDFEATHERS

No, if I was God (as I only know on this earth, I wouldnt) but God sent his son Jesus Christ onto this earth for a reason, and Jesus suffered a terrible death.

We do not know the meaning of life nor understand it, only the higher being than ourselves does, and until we fully understand that (if we ever do) nobody can really answer that question truly.

Hopefully, all these children are taken to a better life and they life in peace and calm in Heaven.

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Reply #2 posted 07/05/03 5:08pm

4jamiestarr

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[Snip. Flame removed. Ian]

4jamiestarr
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Reply #3 posted 07/05/03 6:47pm

IceNine

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Sending Jesus to earth does not answer the question and only proves that god would want to allow people to die horribly.

How can you allow someone that you love to die a horrible death?

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Reply #4 posted 07/05/03 7:00pm

savoirfaire

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REDFEATHERS said:

No, if I was God (as I only know on this earth, I wouldnt) but God sent his son Jesus Christ onto this earth for a reason, and Jesus suffered a terrible death.

We do not know the meaning of life nor understand it, only the higher being than ourselves does, and until we fully understand that (if we ever do) nobody can really answer that question truly.

Hopefully, all these children are taken to a better life and they life in peace and calm in Heaven.


To add to this Redfeathers, don't you think saying "God knows and we don't, because we're not God" is a cop-out of an answer?

Doesn't this just avoid answering any question that doesn't want to be answered? Is this truly a justifiable way of defending counter-arguments to you? Because, I think it solves nothing, and just means that those who say it have a blind and un-questioning faith in something, which in and of itself does not offer explanation, motivation, or proof of anything, which therefore makes it unresolved. And, if this is the case, where do theists draw the line between what should be offered as explanation for things, and what things don't need to be explained?

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins
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Reply #5 posted 07/05/03 7:16pm

DORA

IceNine said:

Since my other christian questions are kind of hard to answer... here is a new question for christians...

...I might have asked this one before, but it needs to be a new topic.

If god loves everyone and god is just and merciful, how can you reconcile the fact that many children die of horrible diseases? These children have never sinned, nor could they have done anything to anger god, so why do they have to die so horribly?

Would you allow innocent children to die horrible, painful deaths if you were god and loved your creations?




rolleyes


i know why i avoid this forum...

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Reply #6 posted 07/05/03 7:27pm

SexGod

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DORA said:




rolleyes


i know why i avoid this forum...

It's O.K...you probobly just clicked the wrong button.
Click on "General Discussion"

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Reply #7 posted 07/05/03 8:50pm

markusmom

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Okay, here's my attempt...God 'allows' certain things to happen and for seemingly innocent people to die for reasons we cannot or may never understand. The Bible says that there are generational curses, and that children will suffer because of the actions of their parents. Maybe the parents were sinful, and the death of the child is a consequence. In the Bible, David slept with another man's wife, she became pregnant, and God told David that the child would not live because of his sin. Children may die because of God preventing them from something more horrible down the line, or preventing them from living a life as a vegetable. There may be something that God wants to 'teach' that parent, or maybe the child's death is a blessing for another to be born. The Bible says that God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways, therefore, our limited mental capacities may never understand, and we cannot see the future or the 'whole' picture as God sees it. We are only seeing a portion of the plan. And yes, children are born sinners, or born with a sinful nature. The Bible also says that a parent's faith will 'cover' their children. So, be very careful with the gifts that God has given us and the way we live, for He that giveth, also taketh away. Some parents often make false idols of their children, putting them on pedastals, and God does not like this, so He chooses to correct it in His own way. I hope this helps pray.

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Reply #8 posted 07/05/03 9:34pm

vgallo6

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We don't know the reasons why God allows these things to happen. The question is not answered in the Bible. We trust God because He works out all things for good. Even if we don't understand. Aborted, miscarried babies, small children who arent old enough to understand and make a decision about Christ are immedietly ushered into the presence of God. We believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord for the believer and thats better than living in the world the way it is now. The children that pass im sure don't have a problem with it. The believer will be reunited with there loved ones. I do understand its a hard thing to grasp because children are so innocent and precious. I lost two of my own before i became a christian.
[This message was edited Sat Jul 5 21:35:19 PDT 2003 by vgallo6]

Peace and Love!
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Reply #9 posted 07/05/03 10:30pm

IceNine

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markusmom said:

Okay, here's my attempt...God 'allows' certain things to happen and for seemingly innocent people to die for reasons we cannot or may never understand. The Bible says that there are generational curses, and that children will suffer because of the actions of their parents. Maybe the parents were sinful, and the death of the child is a consequence. In the Bible, David slept with another man's wife, she became pregnant, and God told David that the child would not live because of his sin. Children may die because of God preventing them from something more horrible down the line, or preventing them from living a life as a vegetable. There may be something that God wants to 'teach' that parent, or maybe the child's death is a blessing for another to be born. The Bible says that God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways, therefore, our limited mental capacities may never understand, and we cannot see the future or the 'whole' picture as God sees it. We are only seeing a portion of the plan. And yes, children are born sinners, or born with a sinful nature. The Bible also says that a parent's faith will 'cover' their children. So, be very careful with the gifts that God has given us and the way we live, for He that giveth, also taketh away. Some parents often make false idols of their children, putting them on pedastals, and God does not like this, so He chooses to correct it in His own way. I hope this helps pray.


...but the bible also says:

Deuteronomy 24
16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

The bible is contradictory in many places. This passage clearly says that children will not be punished for the sins of their fathers.

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Reply #10 posted 07/05/03 10:31pm

IceNine

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vgallo6 said:

I lost two of my own before i became a christian.


I'm sorry to hear that, my friend.

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Reply #11 posted 07/05/03 10:32pm

IceNine

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This "scripture" is for 4jamiestarr:

Matthew 5
22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, `Raca,' shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, `Thou fool,' shall be in danger of hell fire.

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Reply #12 posted 07/05/03 11:37pm

4jamiestarr

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[Snip. Flame removed. Ian]

4jamiestarr
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Reply #13 posted 07/06/03 12:20am

Janfriend

markusmom said:

Okay, here's my attempt...God 'allows' certain things to happen and for seemingly innocent people to die for reasons we cannot or may never understand. The Bible says that there are generational curses, and that children will suffer because of the actions of their parents. Maybe the parents were sinful, and the death of the child is a consequence. In the Bible, David slept with another man's wife, she became pregnant, and God told David that the child would not live because of his sin. Children may die because of God preventing them from something more horrible down the line, or preventing them from living a life as a vegetable. There may be something that God wants to 'teach' that parent, or maybe the child's death is a blessing for another to be born. The Bible says that God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways, therefore, our limited mental capacities may never understand, and we cannot see the future or the 'whole' picture as God sees it. We are only seeing a portion of the plan. And yes, children are born sinners, or born with a sinful nature. The Bible also says that a parent's faith will 'cover' their children. So, be very careful with the gifts that God has given us and the way we live, for He that giveth, also taketh away. Some parents often make false idols of their children, putting them on pedastals, and God does not like this, so He chooses to correct it in His own way. I hope this helps pray.


I always thought God was a big practical joker and merciless

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Reply #14 posted 07/06/03 5:21am

AprilMichelle

Janfriend said:

markusmom said:

Okay, here's my attempt...God 'allows' certain things to happen and for seemingly innocent people to die for reasons we cannot or may never understand. The Bible says that there are generational curses, and that children will suffer because of the actions of their parents. Maybe the parents were sinful, and the death of the child is a consequence. In the Bible, David slept with another man's wife, she became pregnant, and God told David that the child would not live because of his sin. Children may die because of God preventing them from something more horrible down the line, or preventing them from living a life as a vegetable. There may be something that God wants to 'teach' that parent, or maybe the child's death is a blessing for another to be born. The Bible says that God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways, therefore, our limited mental capacities may never understand, and we cannot see the future or the 'whole' picture as God sees it. We are only seeing a portion of the plan. And yes, children are born sinners, or born with a sinful nature. The Bible also says that a parent's faith will 'cover' their children. So, be very careful with the gifts that God has given us and the way we live, for He that giveth, also taketh away. Some parents often make false idols of their children, putting them on pedastals, and God does not like this, so He chooses to correct it in His own way. I hope this helps pray.


I always thought God was a big practical joker and merciless

I always thought god was about equal to Santa and the tooth fairy, fun to pretend about but obviously non existant due to lack of proof or logic.

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Reply #15 posted 07/06/03 6:36am

IceNine

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4jamiestarr said:

[Snip. Flame removed. Ian]

There is no need to argue, but you were attempting to call me a "fool" by virtue of your comments and you know this to be true. I would say that god detests a liar, but the bible is full of so many lies that it would condemn all who preach its word if this were the case, so god must not have a problem with lies. You cannot defend your comments with a lame retort such as the one you have posted here and you have yet to provide any reasonable argument concerning god's lack of compassion for humanity, therefore you might do well to stay out of the discussion until you can either make intelligent comments or keep your baseless condescension to yourself.

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Reply #16 posted 07/06/03 9:05am

4jamiestarr

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again, this is 4 icenine:

eye am not arguing with U. eye am sharing...conversing. but here is another one 2 think about:

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;



PEACE N B WILD!!!

4jamiestarr
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Reply #17 posted 07/06/03 9:15am

IceNine

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4jamiestarr said:

again, this is 4 icenine:

eye am not arguing with U. eye am sharing...conversing. but here is another one 2 think about:

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;



PEACE N B WILD!!!

I am glad that you are not trying to argue, but that still doesn't make the horrible suffering of children any more acceptable to me. It seems to me that any god worth anything would reserve horrible punishment, torment, suffering and death for those who do evil things, not for those who are totally innocent.

My argument is about compassion, love and caring. How can anyone believe that god is caring, loving, forgiving or compassionate when the innocent suffer and are offered no assistance from the one who is allegedly all-powerful and who could remove all suffering?

My question is along the lines of this statement by Walter Kaufmann:

"Faith in immortality, like belief in Satan, leaves unanswered the ancient question: is God unable to prevent suffering and thus not omnipotent? or is he able but not willing to prevent it and thus not merciful? And is he just?"

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Reply #18 posted 07/06/03 10:32am

imnotsayinthis
just2bnasty

this all goes back to free will and the first humans. people are quick to blame God for the bad things in this world meanwhile letting humans off the hook for past bad decisions. when God first created Earth and Adam & Eve, it was a perfect world. no disease, no death, no stress...just happiness and joy. man has since made bad decisions. those bad decisions have long lasting repercussions, disease being one of them. hopefully that answers the question.

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Reply #19 posted 07/06/03 10:42am

theSpark

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Then what about the animals? Why would god let animals feel horrible pain and suffering? Or did the animals eat the apple core that adam threw to the ground?

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Reply #20 posted 07/06/03 10:50am

imnotsayinthis
just2bnasty

theSpark said:

Then what about the animals? Why would god let animals feel horrible pain and suffering? Or did the animals eat the apple core that adam threw to the ground?

well, i just don't know. that is the wonderful thing about faith. i don't need all the answers or tons of tangible proof. just being here, by some greater design, is enough for me. i would think that since man had domain over the animals that (maybe?) they changed the fate of animals too when they ate from that tree. that's just a stab, though, and only a random guess. perhaps someone a little more learned in the bible can answer that one for you.

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Reply #21 posted 07/06/03 10:52am

MaryD

I dont think that God either allows or disallows these things to go on.
They just are.

The whole point of FAITH is just that - accepting things. Yeh you might say its a cop-out but think about it, It is far more scary placing your faith in something you dont see and dont know for sure..

That is where the strength can be found, The individual who can do this can be strong for those who suffer. If you have a lack of faith in God, you should try and accept that others have a strength of faith.

It is good to question faith but there comes a point where acknowledging and accepting, that as an individual, it is not possible to know everything.

Every day, people accept things they know nothing of - they put their faith in machines and other people. Their lives in that other person's hands. When something goes wrong, God is often blamed - what of the person or machine that went wrong? Do they hold no blame?

***Love, understanding and respect for others... its the only way forward.***
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Reply #22 posted 07/06/03 10:59am

IceNine

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imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

this all goes back to free will and the first humans. people are quick to blame God for the bad things in this world meanwhile letting humans off the hook for past bad decisions. when God first created Earth and Adam & Eve, it was a perfect world. no disease, no death, no stress...just happiness and joy. man has since made bad decisions. those bad decisions have long lasting repercussions, disease being one of them. hopefully that answers the question.


I know that you did provide a christian response and I appreciate that, but do you feel that a just god would punish EVERY human forever for the "sins" of Adam and Eve? What kind of monster tortures thousands of generations of his creations for the actions of two?

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Reply #23 posted 07/06/03 11:20am

imnotsayinthis
just2bnasty

IceNine said:

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

this all goes back to free will and the first humans. people are quick to blame God for the bad things in this world meanwhile letting humans off the hook for past bad decisions. when God first created Earth and Adam & Eve, it was a perfect world. no disease, no death, no stress...just happiness and joy. man has since made bad decisions. those bad decisions have long lasting repercussions, disease being one of them. hopefully that answers the question.


I know that you did provide a christian response and I appreciate that, but do you feel that a just god would punish EVERY human forever for the "sins" of Adam and Eve? What kind of monster tortures thousands of generations of his creations for the actions of two?

the only response i could give is this. when we question God we use the only kind of logic that we know, which is human logic. If God created the entire universe then He certainly has something deeper than human logic. questions like "do i think its just" or "do i think its fair" or "do i think its reasonable" are irrelevant. i can only answer that to my own, human, capabilities. i feel that if God was smart enough to make the whole universe then He probably knows what's best, too.

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Reply #24 posted 07/06/03 11:22am

imnotsayinthis
just2bnasty

oh yeah...plus, that is still putting the blame back on God after He told A & E not to eat from that tree. if he told them not and they did are the repercussions God's fault or A & E's fault? They were told in advance.

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Reply #25 posted 07/06/03 11:25am

IceNine

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imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

IceNine said:

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

this all goes back to free will and the first humans. people are quick to blame God for the bad things in this world meanwhile letting humans off the hook for past bad decisions. when God first created Earth and Adam & Eve, it was a perfect world. no disease, no death, no stress...just happiness and joy. man has since made bad decisions. those bad decisions have long lasting repercussions, disease being one of them. hopefully that answers the question.


I know that you did provide a christian response and I appreciate that, but do you feel that a just god would punish EVERY human forever for the "sins" of Adam and Eve? What kind of monster tortures thousands of generations of his creations for the actions of two?

the only response i could give is this. when we question God we use the only kind of logic that we know, which is human logic. If God created the entire universe then He certainly has something deeper than human logic. questions like "do i think its just" or "do i think its fair" or "do i think its reasonable" are irrelevant. i can only answer that to my own, human, capabilities. i feel that if God was smart enough to make the whole universe then He probably knows what's best, too.

I can appreciate your viewpoint, but I can never accept that it is "best" to allow unimaginable suffering if you have the capability to stop it.

The fundamental problems with the cruelty that is inherent in the very idea that god would allow horrible suffering are enough to make me an atheist, not to mention the countless problems with mankind's formulations of religions based upon their concept of this god.

"If God made the world, I would not be that God, for the misery of the world would break my heart." - Arthur Schopenhauer

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Reply #26 posted 07/06/03 11:27am

IceNine

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imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

oh yeah...plus, that is still putting the blame back on God after He told A & E not to eat from that tree. if he told them not and they did are the repercussions God's fault or A & E's fault? They were told in advance.

The fault is and always will be god's. It takes a bully and a sadist to purposely tempt your creations and then punish EVERYONE else in the world forever for their actions.

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Reply #27 posted 07/06/03 11:32am

imnotsayinthis
just2bnasty

IceNine said:


I can appreciate your viewpoint, but I can never accept that it is "best" to allow unimaginable suffering if you have the capability to stop it.

The fundamental problems with the cruelty that is inherent in the very idea that god would allow horrible suffering are enough to make me an atheist, not to mention the countless problems with mankind's formulations of religions based upon their concept of this god.


once again, though, you are comparing your own logic to God's. and also, once again, you are blaming man's actions on God. it is hard not to do it but it is a very important part of spirituality. we must not consider ourselves as intelligent as our creator.

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Reply #28 posted 07/06/03 11:37am

IceNine

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imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

IceNine said:


I can appreciate your viewpoint, but I can never accept that it is "best" to allow unimaginable suffering if you have the capability to stop it.

The fundamental problems with the cruelty that is inherent in the very idea that god would allow horrible suffering are enough to make me an atheist, not to mention the countless problems with mankind's formulations of religions based upon their concept of this god.


once again, though, you are comparing your own logic to God's. and also, once again, you are blaming man's actions on God. it is hard not to do it but it is a very important part of spirituality. we must not consider ourselves as intelligent as our creator.

My only creators were my parents, therefore I don't have to think that I am not as intelligent as them.

I look at human suffering and see that there is no reason for it if there is a god... If god is the architect of all things, then one must admit that he created good and evil, happiness and misery, love and hate, lust, greed, racism, insanity, disease and everything else in the world. EVERYTHING is the fault of a god who does not care... Killing a million people is the same to god as making a flower bloom.

OR there is another option: There is no god and everything is human.

...
[This message was edited Sun Jul 6 11:38:04 PDT 2003 by IceNine]

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Reply #29 posted 07/06/03 11:44am

imnotsayinthis
just2bnasty

IceNine said:

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

IceNine said:


I can appreciate your viewpoint, but I can never accept that it is "best" to allow unimaginable suffering if you have the capability to stop it.

The fundamental problems with the cruelty that is inherent in the very idea that god would allow horrible suffering are enough to make me an atheist, not to mention the countless problems with mankind's formulations of religions based upon their concept of this god.


once again, though, you are comparing your own logic to God's. and also, once again, you are blaming man's actions on God. it is hard not to do it but it is a very important part of spirituality. we must not consider ourselves as intelligent as our creator.

My only creators were my parents, therefore I don't have to think that I am not as intelligent as them.

I look at human suffering and see that there is no reason for it if there is a god... If god is the architect of all things, then one must admit that he created good and evil, happiness and misery, love and hate, lust, greed, racism, insanity, disease and everything else in the world. EVERYTHING is the fault of a god who does not care... Killing a million people is the same to god as making a flower bloom.

OR there is another option: There is no god and everything is human.

...
[This message was edited Sun Jul 6 11:38:04 PDT 2003 by IceNine]

well, i honestly tried to help you out with some possible answers. the only other thing i can suggest is to read the bible. i know you don't believe in God. just because you don't believe in Him doesn't mean he doesn't believe in you. yeah, yeah, corny but true. i respectfully bow out of the conversation here, though, because you don't really want to know the answers to your questions as you already think you have them. peace.

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