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Thread started 08/15/18 1:42pm

Graycap23

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Critics slam Vatican's 'disturbing' silence on abuse cover-ups

Can anyone please tell me how the Catholic Church continues to get away with this?

I really don't understand this.

Critics slam Vatican's 'disturbing' silence on abuse cover-ups

140926160723-daniel-burke-profile-image1-small-11.jpg

New report details horrific abuse by priests 02:55

(CNN)The Vatican has declined to respond to an explosive grand jury report detailing decades of sexual abuse and cover-ups by priests and bishops in Pennsylvania, refusing even to say whether church officials in Rome have read the damaging documents.

"We have no comment at this time," Paloma Ovejero, deputy director of the Vatican's press office, said Wednesday.
But in the United States and elsewhere, pressure is mounting on Pope Francis to address a rapidly escalating crisis that has spread across several continents, from Australia to Latin America.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/15/us/pennsylvania-catholic-sex-abuse-vatican/index.html

[Edited 8/15/18 14:29pm]

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #1 posted 08/15/18 2:29pm

EmmaMcG

They're scum. Absolute scum. The problem is that too many people are under their spell so there will never be any real consequences for the people at the top of this outdated, disgusting group of scam artists.
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Reply #2 posted 08/15/18 2:50pm

Silvertongue7

Nothing new...
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Reply #3 posted 08/15/18 2:53pm

Graycap23

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Silvertongue7 said:

Nothing new...

How are they allowed 2 get away with this?

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #4 posted 08/15/18 2:59pm

LadyLayla

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Silvertongue7 said:

Nothing new...

Sadly. Predators are not just men (or women) in a windowless van. So much for the good 'old' days. Though not Catholic myself I have admiration for Pope Francis. I want to see how he handles religious dogma vs his individual moral compass.

---

Style is the second cousin to class
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Reply #5 posted 08/15/18 3:05pm

onlyforaminute

Is there a way to legitemately boycott the Vatican if you're not Catholic?

"You want to know your biggest fault? You don’t keep true accounts: you put a high value on what you’ve given, a low value on what you’ve received."

- Seneca, On Anger 3.31.3
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Reply #6 posted 08/15/18 3:08pm

EmmaMcG

LadyLayla said:



Silvertongue7 said:


Nothing new...

Sadly. Predators are not just men (or women) in a windowless van. So much for the good 'old' days. Though not Catholic myself I have admiration for Pope Francis. I want to see how he handles religious dogma vs his individual moral compass.



---



He's no different from the previous Popes who covered up child abuse. The Catholic Church is nothing more than an organised crime syndicate. OK, so it's the biggest organised crime syndicate in the world but at the end of the day, they're still criminals.
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Reply #7 posted 08/15/18 3:45pm

RodeoSchro

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I'm a very committed Christian but I cannot say that I think much of Catholics because of this. And I've felt that way for a long time.

One of the things I want to do this year is study how different branches of Christianity came to be. And one of the specific things I want to understand is why Catholic priests have to be celebate.


Second Funkiest White Man in America

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Reply #8 posted 08/15/18 4:41pm

RodeoSchro

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Or I could just Google "Why are Catholic priests celebate?" - which I did.

As I suspected, there is nothing - NOTHING - in the Bible that commands priests to be celebate. Quite the opposite, actually.

I can't think of one good reason to support Catholicism. Maybe they meant well when they instituted those Draconian practices but clearly things should have changed a long time ago.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

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Reply #9 posted 08/15/18 6:17pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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RodeoSchro said:

Or I could just Google "Why are Catholic priests celebate?" - which I did.

As I suspected, there is nothing - NOTHING - in the Bible that commands priests to be celebate. Quite the opposite, actually.

I can't think of one good reason to support Catholicism. Maybe they meant well when they instituted those Draconian practices but clearly things should have changed a long time ago.


From what I know (being a cafeteria Catholic of sorts lol) as a priest or a nun you devote your life in the service of God and church, sacrificing all the trappings of marriage (having children) and abstaining from the sins of the skin (sexual relations) e.g. celibacy. The church has not evolved in recognizing that this draconian practice has become a breeding ground for sexual predators. It's heartbreaking that this has gone on for so long and that is was covered up by the ranking church leaders. I feel that having it come out in the open is an opportunity for things to CHANGE and for healing to take place over these horrific abuses. I am placing a lot of hope in Pope Francis - that he be the one church leader to recognize and put a stop to this BS.

However, this is not exclusive to the Catholic Church - as organized religions go, the Catholic Church is huge and therefore the likelihood of this happening on a larger scale is relative. I personally have a friend who was preyed upon by her Baptist pastor and gave birth to his child when she was 15 - only to be cast out of her community and parish deemed the evil one in the scenario - they might as well have given her a scarlet A to wear.




pray

[Edited 8/15/18 18:21pm]

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #10 posted 08/15/18 7:35pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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As with Trump, i am always surprised people still support something as vile as the Catholic Church and orginized religion in general.
Crooked Donnie. Lock him up!
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Reply #11 posted 08/15/18 7:59pm

LadyLayla

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However, this is not exclusive to the Catholic Church - as organized religions go, the Catholic Church is huge and therefore the likelihood of this happening on a larger scale is relative. I personally have a friend who was preyed upon by her Baptist pastor and gave birth to his child when she was 15 - only to be cast out of her community and parish deemed the evil one in the scenario - they might as well have given her a scarlet A to wear.

---------------------------------

I applaud you D Rocker! The crime itself is not limited to the Catholic Church. Most of the other pedophile religious abuses we are exposed to are on a smaller scale and limited to the cults like FLDS, Children of God, David Koresh, Jim Jones...etc. I don't think we need to demonize any religion per se, but here in the US, we are going to have to walk that fine line of rule of our laws and the rule of someone's religion. Maybe like we do with healthcare personnel....if you suspect child, spousal, or elder abuse you are required by law to report it. But now as I say that I'm wondering if the only way we can legally enforce it is to tax churches, religions, etc????


Style is the second cousin to class
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Reply #12 posted 08/15/18 8:31pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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It always comes down to bad parenting when you indoctrinate children in things base on the false romanticism of culture and tradition instead of reason that our children are abused.

As Stevie Wonder once wrote “ when you believe in things you don’t understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain’t the way”
Crooked Donnie. Lock him up!
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Reply #13 posted 08/15/18 8:54pm

IanRG

As a victim of childhood sexual abuse enabled by the Anglican Church (AKA Episcopal Church in the US) and a practicing Catholic, I am appalled that there are still people failing to respond the crime of covering up abuse within organisations including the Catholic Church.

.

I was personally involved with the Australian Royal Commission into the institutional responses to childhood sexual abuse last year. In this Archbishop's Wilson (Catholic), Holland and Herft (Anglican) were all found severally wanting and dishonest in their failure to prevent abuse. No charges have been laid against Holland (the Bishop that covered up my abuse and many, many others). The silence from the Anglican Church here is more complete and deafening than for either of the other Bishops. Herft stood aside as Archbishop of Perth but is not currently facing charges nor is the Anglican Church responding about him. In the meantime Wilson has been forced to resign, has been charged and found guilty. This involved comments by the Prime Minister of Australia who has been silent about the Anglican Bishops. IMHO, this has nothing to do with celebacy - Think about it this way - is the only thing preventing you from raping children the fact that you have normal sex with adult consensual partners whilst not having sex with everyone else?

.

It is absolutely critical to hold the Catholic Church fully and completely responsible for their failures in duty of care for the most vulnerable in their care and for allowing the vilest of crimes to continue, lest it look bad for the organisation. It is also absolutely critical that the same be done for all the other religions, cultural, youth, sporting, education, heath and child care organisations. The size and position of the Catholic Church, together with its criminal failures make it stand out but it should be born in mind that there are many other organisations (religious and non-religious) that did/do the same thing. To focus on one group is to allow the others to continue unabated.

.

With the sharp reduction in people going to churches or to organisations like the scouts etc., and the rise of the internet, especially the dark web, the future of paedophilia rings like the one allowed to run inside the Anglican Church in my area in the 1970s to 1990s is that they no longer need to rely on organisational failures - my message is eternal vigilance, monitor your children and believe them. This is what saved me from a lot of what was done to others in my area - my mother believed me even as Bishop Holland did nothing and, even perjured himself to the Royal Commission.

.

P.S. the person who abused me is in gaol and the Royal Commission stated Bishop Holland lied to the Commission - but we are still waiting for any action from the Anglican Church or the Australian legal system for any response. My mother helped me through the court case and I was able to return this by helping her through her testimony before the Royal Commission.

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Reply #14 posted 08/15/18 9:29pm

jjhunsecker

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RodeoSchro said:

Or I could just Google "Why are Catholic priests celebate?" - which I did.

As I suspected, there is nothing - NOTHING - in the Bible that commands priests to be celebate. Quite the opposite, actually.

I can't think of one good reason to support Catholicism. Maybe they meant well when they instituted those Draconian practices but clearly things should have changed a long time ago.

Some historians will say that one of the reasons that priests are celebate was so that priests would not have children who would lay claim to the fortunes of the Church.

I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic school. Sent my child to a Catholic school. I've moved away from the Church for a lot of reasons, including the abuse scandals, the handling of which was and is an absolute disgrace. However, to be fair, other religions have had scandals with clergy as well (remember Rev. Eddie Long ?). And it probably didn't make the national news, but in the New York area, there were several cases of Orthodox and Hassidic Jewish rabbis accused of molesting children. What was really fucked up in those cases was that those communities, instead of supporting the accusers, turned on them and ostracized them and supported the accused rabbis blindly.

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Reply #15 posted 08/15/18 9:44pm

IanRG

jjhunsecker said:

RodeoSchro said:

Or I could just Google "Why are Catholic priests celebate?" - which I did.

As I suspected, there is nothing - NOTHING - in the Bible that commands priests to be celebate. Quite the opposite, actually.

I can't think of one good reason to support Catholicism. Maybe they meant well when they instituted those Draconian practices but clearly things should have changed a long time ago.

Some historians will say that one of the reasons that priests are celebate was so that priests would not have children who would lay claim to the fortunes of the Church.

I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic school. Sent my child to a Catholic school. I've moved away from the Church for a lot of reasons, including the abuse scandals, the handling of which was and is an absolute disgrace. However, to be fair, other religions have had scandals with clergy as well (remember Rev. Eddie Long ?). And it probably didn't make the national news, but in the New York area, there were several cases of Orthodox and Hassidic Jewish rabbis accused of molesting children. What was really fucked up in those cases was that those communities, instead of supporting the accusers, turned on them and ostracized them and supported the accused rabbis blindly.

.

That is something I do not understand - the turning on the accusers and reformers by the community.

.

This happened in the Anglican Church where I live - The Bishop at the time of the Royal Commission, the person working within the Diocese to reform the church and the Police man who headed up the investigation into the children held as sex slaves at the St Alban's Orphanage etc. all suffered from personal and sometimes violent attacks (Not US violence, just rocks through windows etc.). Bishop Greg Thompson was, himself, a previous victim of abuse through the Anglican Church and resigned soon after the Royal Commission because too many in the community turned on him for making a stand against the handling of abuse by the church.

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Reply #16 posted 08/15/18 10:17pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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IanRG said:

jjhunsecker said:

Some historians will say that one of the reasons that priests are celebate was so that priests would not have children who would lay claim to the fortunes of the Church.

I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic school. Sent my child to a Catholic school. I've moved away from the Church for a lot of reasons, including the abuse scandals, the handling of which was and is an absolute disgrace. However, to be fair, other religions have had scandals with clergy as well (remember Rev. Eddie Long ?). And it probably didn't make the national news, but in the New York area, there were several cases of Orthodox and Hassidic Jewish rabbis accused of molesting children. What was really fucked up in those cases was that those communities, instead of supporting the accusers, turned on them and ostracized them and supported the accused rabbis blindly.

.

That is something I do not understand - the turning on the accusers and reformers by the community.

.

This happened in the Anglican Church where I live - The Bishop at the time of the Royal Commission, the person working within the Diocese to reform the church and the Police man who headed up the investigation into the children held as sex slaves at the St Alban's Orphanage etc. all suffered from personal and sometimes violent attacks (Not US violence, just rocks through windows etc.). Bishop Greg Thompson was, himself, a previous victim of abuse through the Anglican Church and resigned soon after the Royal Commission because too many in the community turned on him for making a stand against the handling of abuse by the church.

This is what happened to my friend - the church community that she and her family were very involved in turn on her - she was to blame. disbelief it's mortifying.

I am sorry that you were a victim of such abuse, IanRG. sad and I too am appalled and deeply saddened that churches engage in covering up these abuses and in doing so facillitate the abuse to continue.

sigh

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #17 posted 08/15/18 10:24pm

onlyforaminute

LadyLayla said:

However, this is not exclusive to the Catholic Church - as organized religions go, the Catholic Church is huge and therefore the likelihood of this happening on a larger scale is relative. I personally have a friend who was preyed upon by her Baptist pastor and gave birth to his child when she was 15 - only to be cast out of her community and parish deemed the evil one in the scenario - they might as well have given her a scarlet A to wear.



-----



I applaud you D Rocker! The crime itself is not limited to the Catholic Church. Most of the other pedophile religious abuses we are exposed to are on a smaller scale and limited to the cults like FLDS, Children of God, David Koresh, Jim Jones...etc. I don't think we need to demonize any religion per se, but here in the US, we are going to have to walk that fine line of rule of our laws and the rule of someone's religion. Maybe like we do with healthcare personnel....if you suspect child, spousal, or elder abuse you are required by law to report it. But now as I say that I'm wondering if the only way we can legally enforce it is to tax churches, religions, etc????





True it has happened across the board. And as with all positions of power excuses are made victims are ostracized. Some have responded by changing ordinances within their own organization even to losing whole congregations. I suppose some haven't. It's a serious uphill battle.
"You want to know your biggest fault? You don’t keep true accounts: you put a high value on what you’ve given, a low value on what you’ve received."

- Seneca, On Anger 3.31.3
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Reply #18 posted 08/16/18 7:13am

NorthC

RodeoSchro said:

I'm a very committed Christian but I cannot say that I think much of Catholics because of this. And I've felt that way for a long time.

One of the things I want to do this year is study how different branches of Christianity came to be. And one of the specific things I want to understand is why Catholic priests have to be celebate.



The site: www.livius.org specializes in the ancient world and has a lot of articles on early christianity.
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
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Reply #19 posted 08/16/18 7:28am

2freaky4church
1

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Some of the things they did! Like something from a book or bad movie. sick. So much for celebacy being moral.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #20 posted 08/16/18 7:30am

SuperFurryAnim
al

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RodeoSchro said:

I'm a very committed Christian but I cannot say that I think much of Catholics because of this. And I've felt that way for a long time.

One of the things I want to do this year is study how different branches of Christianity came to be. And one of the specific things I want to understand is why Catholic priests have to be celebate.


I think they should not be made to be celibate and allowed to have relationships.

Trump turns from 'humbling' grief to midterm fire and furry
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Reply #21 posted 08/16/18 7:32am

2freaky4church
1

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It's called sin.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #22 posted 08/16/18 8:23am

jjhunsecker

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IanRG said:

jjhunsecker said:

Some historians will say that one of the reasons that priests are celebate was so that priests would not have children who would lay claim to the fortunes of the Church.

I was raised Catholic. Went to Catholic school. Sent my child to a Catholic school. I've moved away from the Church for a lot of reasons, including the abuse scandals, the handling of which was and is an absolute disgrace. However, to be fair, other religions have had scandals with clergy as well (remember Rev. Eddie Long ?). And it probably didn't make the national news, but in the New York area, there were several cases of Orthodox and Hassidic Jewish rabbis accused of molesting children. What was really fucked up in those cases was that those communities, instead of supporting the accusers, turned on them and ostracized them and supported the accused rabbis blindly.

.

That is something I do not understand - the turning on the accusers and reformers by the community.

.

This happened in the Anglican Church where I live - The Bishop at the time of the Royal Commission, the person working within the Diocese to reform the church and the Police man who headed up the investigation into the children held as sex slaves at the St Alban's Orphanage etc. all suffered from personal and sometimes violent attacks (Not US violence, just rocks through windows etc.). Bishop Greg Thompson was, himself, a previous victim of abuse through the Anglican Church and resigned soon after the Royal Commission because too many in the community turned on him for making a stand against the handling of abuse by the church.

Absolutely disgraceful

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Reply #23 posted 08/16/18 8:51am

Graycap23

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Ok..........at what point is something going 2 be done about this?

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #24 posted 08/16/18 9:23am

2freaky4church
1

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Feds are afraid to go after Religion.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #25 posted 08/16/18 9:39am

Empress

Graycap23 said:

Ok..........at what point is something going 2 be done about this?

Very little will ever be done about this. It continues to this day and will always be there. I can only imagine what's going on in other religious groups. It sickens me to no end.

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Reply #26 posted 08/16/18 9:48am

Graycap23

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Empress said:

Graycap23 said:

Ok..........at what point is something going 2 be done about this?

Very little will ever be done about this. It continues to this day and will always be there. I can only imagine what's going on in other religious groups. It sickens me to no end.

It is mind blowing 2 me that humans allow this to happened to kids.

I don't understand human behavior.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #27 posted 08/16/18 10:42am

RodeoSchro

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Graycap23 said:

Empress said:

Very little will ever be done about this. It continues to this day and will always be there. I can only imagine what's going on in other religious groups. It sickens me to no end.

It is mind blowing 2 me that humans allow this to happened to kids.

I don't understand human behavior.



Can't disagree with that. So what are you doing about this?

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's paladin
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Reply #28 posted 08/16/18 12:35pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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Empress said:

Graycap23 said:

Ok..........at what point is something going 2 be done about this?

Very little will ever be done about this. It continues to this day and will always be there. I can only imagine what's going on in other religious groups. It sickens me to no end.


I hope you're wrong. I hope this horrific abuse sees a permanent end - it is beyond vile. sad

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #29 posted 08/16/18 3:12pm

IanRG

RodeoSchro said:

Graycap23 said:

It is mind blowing 2 me that humans allow this to happened to kids.

I don't understand human behavior.



Can't disagree with that. So what are you doing about this?

.

And that is the answer. We are ones who must stop it.

.

There will always be people who seek to defend the organisations rather than the abused.

.

There will always be people who simply cannot believe that their friend and colleague could do that to a fellow human being, especially a child.

.

There will always be people who will use the small number of false or revenge accusations to seek to question or deny the real accusations.

.

We need to bear this in mind in how we bring up our children - how we find the appropriate balance between teaching and allowing independence vs keeping them from unsafe environments. How we listen to them and build up their self confidence and openness to discuss things with us so they cannot be manipulated by abusers into blame themselves for being different. The process of abuse relies on isolating the child, the abuser placing themselves as necessary to the child - socially or in sport outcomes or position in the youth group/community. The abuser then seeks to make the child feel responsible for the abuse and so need to keep it quiet because it is their failing. We need to make sure they know it was never their fault and the difference they feel is caused by the abuser, not them.

.

We need to make the people in these organisations who have covered this up personally responsible for their failings. Whilstever we say it is the Catholics, the JWs, the swimming and gynmastic organisations etc. rather than Bishop X, Brother Y, Coach Z who covered this up, then the people covering this up have anonymity. The changes that have been made in schools, youth groups, hospitals, etc etc have been to make the people in positions able to prevent abuse or respond to accusations of abuse personally responcible for seeing that the prevention of abuse is more important that protection of the organisation - and when they don't they are charged and you get publice reports like the ones that inspired this post so we talk about it.

[Edited 8/16/18 15:14pm]

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