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Thread started 07/07/18 10:06am

benni

Is it possible the GOP is being blackmailed?




https://politicsmaven.io/...AKPZE2M1w/



“I think what concerns me most is that they seem afraid ... They lack all dignity." -Sarah Kendzior

1. In a December 2017 interview with Joy Reid, authoritarian expert Sarah Kendzior reminds audiences that Russia hacked the RNC but never publicized the contents they pilfered from it.

2. Kendzior suggests that Republican lawmakers are being blackmailed and this explains why they are so solicitous to both Trump and Russia.


Link to the Raw story:


https://www.rawstory.com/...iling-him/


Writer and expert on authoritarian regimes Sarah Kendzior appeared on MSNBC Thursday and blasted Republicans for their submissiveness to President Donald Trump.

She and host Joy Reid discussed the bizarre turn-around of Sen. Lindsey Graham who went from calling Trump a “kook” to attacking the media for trying to “label the guy some kind of kook not fit to be president.”


The uncomfortably effusive praise of Trump by Vice President Mike Pence and members of the cabinet, as well as an unctuous speech by long-serving Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) led Kendzior to speculate that Trump might even be blackmailing some officials.

“The RNC was hacked,” Kendzior said. “We don’t know what happened with those e-mails. We know that Lindsey Graham’s personal e-mails were also hacked and we know that Trump has a long track record of blackmailing and threatening those who he sees as his political opponents. That goes back throughout his entire career.”

Kendzior reminded Reid that many Republicans benefitted in 2016 from millions of dollars of dark money donated by Kremlin-aligned Russian nationals living in the U.S. and that Graham is one of those politicians.

[Edited 7/7/18 10:10am]

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Reply #1 posted 07/08/18 5:19am

herb4

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Hghly possible I think.

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Reply #2 posted 07/08/18 7:04am

13cjk13

On top of their monumental corruption and obscene hypocrisy, sure!

"Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost".
-Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #3 posted 07/08/18 7:30am

RodeoSchro

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It's a logical if somewhat incredible explanation for the GOP's behavior towards Trump, and Trump's behavior towards Russia.

I have little doubt Trump is being blackmailed by Russia. There is no other explanation for his actions/inactions towards Russia. He has literally sold out the United States' interests in favor of Russian interests.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's paladin
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Reply #4 posted 07/08/18 9:54am

herb4

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RodeoSchro said:

It's a logical if somewhat incredible explanation for the GOP's behavior towards Trump, and Trump's behavior towards Russia.

I have little doubt Trump is being blackmailed by Russia. There is no other explanation for his actions/inactions towards Russia. He has literally sold out the United States' interests in favor of Russian interests.


With Trump, I strongly suspect it's money laundering (hence, no tax returns released) and not outirght collusion. With the rest of the GOP, it's probably dirty campaign money. There's no other way to explain who the party of "fuck the dirty commie Russians" and slavish worship of law enforcement and warrantless wiretaps has suddenly morphed into "The FBI is totally corrupt", "let's wrap this up, shall we?" and all of a sudden giving two shits about the 4th ammendment.

All you have to do with Republicans to know what they're guilty of doing is to listen to what they accuse Democrats of. It's textbook Rovian politics and, sadly, roughly 40% of the country believes this bullshit. You'd think we would have learned a few things from GW Bush but Republicans have very selective and highly short memories.

I still can't believe this asshole got elected.


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Reply #5 posted 07/08/18 10:09am

13cjk13

herb4 said:

RodeoSchro said:

It's a logical if somewhat incredible explanation for the GOP's behavior towards Trump, and Trump's behavior towards Russia.

I have little doubt Trump is being blackmailed by Russia. There is no other explanation for his actions/inactions towards Russia. He has literally sold out the United States' interests in favor of Russian interests.


With Trump, I strongly suspect it's money laundering (hence, no tax returns released) and not outirght collusion. With the rest of the GOP, it's probably dirty campaign money. There's no other way to explain who the party of "fuck the dirty commie Russians" and slavish worship of law enforcement and warrantless wiretaps has suddenly morphed into "The FBI is totally corrupt", "let's wrap this up, shall we?" and all of a sudden giving two shits about the 4th ammendment.

All you have to do with Republicans to know what they're guilty of doing is to listen to what they accuse Democrats of. It's textbook Rovian politics and, sadly, roughly 40% of the country believes this bullshit. You'd think we would have learned a few things from GW Bush but Republicans have very selective and highly short memories.

I still can't believe this asshole got elected.


Im right there with you. This is EXACTLY what is happening and it is unbelievable.

"Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost".
-Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #6 posted 07/08/18 10:49am

herb4

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RodeoSchro said:

It's a logical if somewhat incredible explanation for the GOP's behavior towards Trump, and Trump's behavior towards Russia.

I have little doubt Trump is being blackmailed by Russia. There is no other explanation for his actions/inactions towards Russia. He has literally sold out the United States' interests in favor of Russian interests.


Blackmailed through and by what do you think?

I suspect a lot of dirty money and strong ties to the Russian mob, especially with his business dealings and the way they would inevitably cross over into his campaign finance. That seems to fit in nicely with the indictments Mueller has gotten so far and the charges therein. It ALL looks like money laundering and shady campaign financing, which probably extends to more of the GOP then we thought, thier quick 180 on Trump and also explains thier general non interest in the mattter - for some anyway. Trump has been VERY defensive about anyone investigating his finances so that's obviously where the Russian's leverage and the crimes are. To me anyway..

It can't be something as innocuous as Russian hookers peeing on a bed since his supportes either wouldn't even give a shit and those that did would just excuse it away as "fake" or "made up".

I honestly don't think Trump expected to win and, when he DID, found himself in Shit Town. I think his plan was to lose and then, working in tandem with what teh Russians are doing, deligitimize the election results, sow chaos in the media and public discourse, and enrich himself in the process via TV Channels and shit.

No Presidential candidate in my lifetime hasd refused to disclose their tax returns. DJT once famously bragged during a debate about how "smart" he was with tax procedure and the loopholes he took advantage of. Knowing what we know about Trump - his arrogance, his need to be the center of attention, seen as a savvy businessman and his insatiable desire to be lauded as smart about money (and smart in general) - it seems REALLY strange to me that he wouldn't openly demonstrate these things he brags about.

Then again, he just says shit with nothing to back it up all the time so maybe he's not as rich as he says and the refusal to release the returns is just par for the course?

"Just say shit"

Trump supporters: Why do YOU think he refuses to release his returns? Honest question. And, no, I do not expect an answer.


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Reply #7 posted 07/08/18 11:08am

2freaky4church
1

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Their too corrupt.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #8 posted 07/08/18 11:10am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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Like a healthy immune system, I would like to see that our system of democracy is strong enough that it can vomit him out like any pathogen that enters our system to save us from harm.

CROOKED TRUMP. LOCK HIM UP!
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Reply #9 posted 07/08/18 11:31am

2freaky4church
1

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U sound like a GOP member. You and Rodeo.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #10 posted 07/08/18 11:38am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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2freaky4church1 said:

U sound like a GOP member. You and Rodeo.



Some have recently called me far-left, others part of the GOP. I'm cool with that. That means I'm not too far gone in either direction like some of you. There is something called common sense.

CROOKED TRUMP. LOCK HIM UP!
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Reply #11 posted 07/08/18 11:54am

herb4

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Ugot2shakesumthin said:

Like a healthy immune system, I would like to see that our system of democracy is strong enough that it can vomit him out like any pathogen that enters our system to save us from harm.


I hate to break it to you but it's not. Trump is going to get away with all of it. We haven't lived under a democracy in a good long while.

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Reply #12 posted 07/08/18 12:13pm

herb4

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Ugot2shakesumthin said:

2freaky4church1 said:

U sound like a GOP member. You and Rodeo.



Some have recently called me far-left, others part of the GOP. I'm cool with that. That means I'm not too far gone in either direction like some of you. There is something called common sense.


Go on. Can you elaborate please?.

We passed "the truth is in the middle" and "both sides do it" as a "common sense" stance and a reasonable view to hold and assert about 15 - 20 years ago by my count. To my eyes, asserting that is a cop out of sorts for people too wishy washy and intillectually lazy to face horrible truths and a somewhat lame attempt to pass themselves off as reasonable and logical. Probably due to the fact that certain friends and family members you have espouse conservative views and talking points on the regular and you love them to much to conclude that they are, in fact, misinformed, mean idiots, racists and apologists for all the things any rational person would realize are detrimental to free deomcratic and fair society.

Or having "common sense", such as it is.

I have common sense and I know the start of and a push for a theocratic dictatorship when I see it. The U.S, the world's beacon and loudest champion of "freedom" is, per capita, the world's largest jailer; and now we have moved to locking children in cages. Emboldened nazis run over people with cars and shoot up newspaper offices. We have a a 24/7 literal State Propaganda news network. Churches and pastors enjoy tax exempt status and preach politics from the pulpit, often inviting office seekers to politic from the dais.

We elected a 4x bankrupt reality TV star with a "small loan" million dollar head start form his dad under the auspice that he as a smart, self made business man who speaks of pardoning himself for his own crimes, hiding his finances, abandoning Jurice Prudence entirely, siding with white supremacists and who is on record as having comitted sexual assault. He lies demonstrably every day; citing easily refuted "alternative facts" that not only fly in the face of reality but are often contradicted by his OWN STATEMENTS, which he Tweets from teh Oval Office like a 13 year old girl.

I'm far past "but....but HER E-MAILS!!" and trying to pretend that what FOX NEws and AM Radio do is on the same level as CNN or WAPO. Bullshit.

Again, why no tax returns?

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Reply #13 posted 07/08/18 2:27pm

PennyPurple

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herb4 said:


I hate to break it to you but it's not. Trump is going to get away with all of it. We haven't lived under a democracy in a good long while.

We won't get rid of him til 2020. The thing we have to do, is get everyone out to vote or we'll have hi another 4 years. Something has got to be done to make sure he doesn't get back in office.

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Reply #14 posted 07/08/18 4:38pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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herb4 said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


Like a healthy immune system, I would like to see that our system of democracy is strong enough that it can vomit him out like any pathogen that enters our system to save us from harm.




I hate to break it to you but it's not. Trump is going to get away with all of it. We haven't lived under a democracy in a good long while.



That’s far to cynical even for a cynic like me. Democracy is fluid and I doubt very different that in the past. It’s always been a challenging thing being held together precariously. And as for Trump, it’s not over. Like I said, I hope that our system of government is strong enough to vomit him out like any good defense mechanism of any immune system. There is still time for that to happen. I’d love to see it happen. Nothing is decided yet. And even if he did stay for the remainder of his term. I highly doubt the nation would give him a second chance. He is a known commodity.
[Edited 7/8/18 18:02pm]
CROOKED TRUMP. LOCK HIM UP!
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Reply #15 posted 07/08/18 5:16pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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herb4 said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:




2freaky4church1 said:


U sound like a GOP member. You and Rodeo.





Some have recently called me far-left, others part of the GOP. I'm cool with that. That means I'm not too far gone in either direction like some of you. There is something called common sense.




Go on. Can you elaborate please?.

We passed "the truth is in the middle" and "both sides do it" as a "common sense" stance and a reasonable view to hold and assert about 15 - 20 years ago by my count. To my eyes, asserting that is a cop out of sorts for people too wishy washy and intillectually lazy to face horrible truths and a somewhat lame attempt to pass themselves off as reasonable and logical. Probably due to the fact that certain friends and family members you have espouse conservative views and talking points on the regular and you love them to much to conclude that they are, in fact, misinformed, mean idiots, racists and apologists for all the things any rational person would realize are detrimental to free deomcratic and fair society.

Or having "common sense", such as it is.

I have common sense and I know the start of and a push for a theocratic dictatorship when I see it. The U.S, the world's beacon and loudest champion of "freedom" is, per capita, the world's largest jailer; and now we have moved to locking children in cages. Emboldened nazis run over people with cars and shoot up newspaper offices. We have a a 24/7 literal State Propaganda news network. Churches and pastors enjoy tax exempt status and preach politics from the pulpit, often inviting office seekers to politic from the dais.

We elected a 4x bankrupt reality TV star with a "small loan" million dollar head start form his dad under the auspice that he as a smart, self made business man who speaks of pardoning himself for his own crimes, hiding his finances, abandoning Jurice Prudence entirely, siding with white supremacists and who is on record as having comitted sexual assault. He lies demonstrably every day; citing easily refuted "alternative facts" that not only fly in the face of reality but are often contradicted by his OWN STATEMENTS, which he Tweets from teh Oval Office like a 13 year old girl.

I'm far past "but....but HER E-MAILS!!" and trying to pretend that what FOX NEws and AM Radio do is on the same level as CNN or WAPO. Bullshit.

Again, why no tax returns?



I have no idea what you’re trying to say here. I agree win general with what you posted as I’ve been saying the same thing all along since before he was elected. The topic was about putting the blame Obama for Trump and believing that he could magically solve all the problems that have existed since before he became president as if he or anybody has that sort of power. Common sense says that’s batshit crazy.
CROOKED TRUMP. LOCK HIM UP!
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Reply #16 posted 07/09/18 8:21am

RodeoSchro

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Ugot2shakesumthin said:

2freaky4church1 said:

U sound like a GOP member. You and Rodeo.



Some have recently called me far-left, others part of the GOP. I'm cool with that. That means I'm not too far gone in either direction like some of you. There is something called common sense.




Any club that you and I are in together is automatically a cool club.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's paladin
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Reply #17 posted 07/09/18 8:38am

RodeoSchro

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herb4 said:

RodeoSchro said:

It's a logical if somewhat incredible explanation for the GOP's behavior towards Trump, and Trump's behavior towards Russia.

I have little doubt Trump is being blackmailed by Russia. There is no other explanation for his actions/inactions towards Russia. He has literally sold out the United States' interests in favor of Russian interests.


Blackmailed through and by what do you think?

I suspect a lot of dirty money and strong ties to the Russian mob, especially with his business dealings and the way they would inevitably cross over into his campaign finance. That seems to fit in nicely with the indictments Mueller has gotten so far and the charges therein. It ALL looks like money laundering and shady campaign financing, which probably extends to more of the GOP then we thought, thier quick 180 on Trump and also explains thier general non interest in the mattter - for some anyway. Trump has been VERY defensive about anyone investigating his finances so that's obviously where the Russian's leverage and the crimes are. To me anyway..

It can't be something as innocuous as Russian hookers peeing on a bed since his supportes either wouldn't even give a shit and those that did would just excuse it away as "fake" or "made up".

I honestly don't think Trump expected to win and, when he DID, found himself in Shit Town. I think his plan was to lose and then, working in tandem with what teh Russians are doing, deligitimize the election results, sow chaos in the media and public discourse, and enrich himself in the process via TV Channels and shit.

No Presidential candidate in my lifetime hasd refused to disclose their tax returns. DJT once famously bragged during a debate about how "smart" he was with tax procedure and the loopholes he took advantage of. Knowing what we know about Trump - his arrogance, his need to be the center of attention, seen as a savvy businessman and his insatiable desire to be lauded as smart about money (and smart in general) - it seems REALLY strange to me that he wouldn't openly demonstrate these things he brags about.

Then again, he just says shit with nothing to back it up all the time so maybe he's not as rich as he says and the refusal to release the returns is just par for the course?

"Just say shit"

Trump supporters: Why do YOU think he refuses to release his returns? Honest question. And, no, I do not expect an answer.




Blackmailed by money and sex.

We know for a fact that Trump is a grifter and that not too long ago, no one and I mean NO ONE would lend him money. Then magically a Russian buys his Florida home for a 100% profit, and he starts building stuff again. You don't have to have 20/20 vision to see what happened there. He got financed by shady criminals. And that's what's in his tax returns. Which is why he won't release them.

The only questions are whether or not what he's done is illegal, and is there enough information in his tax returns to prompt a criminal investigation? I have no idea if the IRS checks returns for that kind of thing. It would seem that if they did, and the returns indicated something illegal, then the Treasury Department would have referred that to the FBI some time ago. But maybe the IRS doesn't or can't look for stuff like that.

I don't know, but I do know the reason Trump won't release his tax returns is that he would suffer some kind of penalty if he did - either legal, criminal, or in the court of public opinion. And whatever that penalty might be, it's potentially strong enough that Trump refuses to do what every single presidential candidate since Richard M. Nixon has done.

We also know for a dead-solid certain fact that Trump is, and has always been, an adulterer. That's not even up for debate. But do not forget - it was alleged that he bedded an under-age girl against her will at a party hosted by a convicted pedophile. Who knows what pervisions this adulterer did in Russia? And of course, you can be assured the Russians have whatever he did on video and audio. No doubt about that.

So now he is the president of the United States of America and Russia's got the ultimate bargaining chips at its disposal. Trump's actions and non-actions towards Russia can only be explained by the fact that Russia has him under their thumb.

Of all the things happening in America, this Russian Roll-Over is the most appalling, disgusting, infuriating thing I've seen. Now or ever.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's paladin
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Reply #18 posted 07/09/18 9:37am

deebee

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I've no idea about GOP obsequiousness. I do find it hard to fathom the Trump-Putin collusion yarn, though. At the level of foreign policy, it doesn't wash at all.

Here are a few highlights of US geostrategic opposition to Russia under Trump:


1. Arming the Ukrainian government in its conflict with separatists backed by Russia, and mobilising NATO allies around opposition to the "threat from Russia";
https://www.wsj.com/artic...1513999127

https://www.whitehouse.go...s-belgium/


2. Extending sanctions against Russia, which eventually led to the EU pleading for these to be relaxed;
https://www.rt.com/usa/42...s-prolong/
https://www.ft.com/conten...ac3a6482fd

3. Expelling Russian diplomats following alleged spy poisoning incident in UK;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...a-43545565

4. Launching military and diplomatic attacks against Russian ally Assad in Syria; and

https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...t-43691291
https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...t-43727829

5. Pouring arms into conflict in Yemen, in support of ally Saudia Arabia's ongoing proxy war with Russian ally Iran, escalating US involvement in the conflict.
https://www.al-monitor.co...a-uae.html
https://www.theguardian.c...ing-crisis

These are exactly the positions I'd expect a US President to take in the usual game of realpolitik with strategic adversaries - in this case Russia. In fact, we could make the case that Trump, now piloted by neocon Bolton, is moving towards an even more aggressive security agenda. It's certainly more oppositional than the previous administration's efforts to "reset" relations, avoid getting further embroiled in a Syria, etc.

I've no doubt there are dodgy deals in Donny's closet, and quite possibly dirty money and all the rest of it, which anyone going through his affairs with a fine-tooth comb will uncover. But, the notion that the world's biggest military power is in Putin's pocket only stands up when one disregards all evidence to the contrary.

[Edited 7/9/18 10:00am]

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #19 posted 07/09/18 12:42pm

jaawwnn

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Relations are at the WORST they've been in decades and you guys think Putin is controlling Trump??? Read Deebee's links and cop on, the only people being controlled here are those who are using these conspiracies to push for war with Russia. As for Trump, he'd bring in full communism if you called it the Trump plan and gave him a cookie.
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Reply #20 posted 07/09/18 3:44pm

RodeoSchro

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deebee said:

I've no idea about GOP obsequiousness. I do find it hard to fathom the Trump-Putin collusion yarn, though. At the level of foreign policy, it doesn't wash at all.

Here are a few highlights of US geostrategic opposition to Russia under Trump:


1. Arming the Ukrainian government in its conflict with separatists backed by Russia, and mobilising NATO allies around opposition to the "threat from Russia";
https://www.wsj.com/artic...1513999127

https://www.whitehouse.go...s-belgium/


2. Extending sanctions against Russia, which eventually led to the EU pleading for these to be relaxed;
https://www.rt.com/usa/42...s-prolong/
https://www.ft.com/conten...ac3a6482fd

3. Expelling Russian diplomats following alleged spy poisoning incident in UK;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...a-43545565

4. Launching military and diplomatic attacks against Russian ally Assad in Syria; and

https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...t-43691291
https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...t-43727829

5. Pouring arms into conflict in Yemen, in support of ally Saudia Arabia's ongoing proxy war with Russian ally Iran, escalating US involvement in the conflict.
https://www.al-monitor.co...a-uae.html
https://www.theguardian.c...ing-crisis

These are exactly the positions I'd expect a US President to take in the usual game of realpolitik with strategic adversaries - in this case Russia. In fact, we could make the case that Trump, now piloted by neocon Bolton, is moving towards an even more aggressive security agenda. It's certainly more oppositional than the previous administration's efforts to "reset" relations, avoid getting further embroiled in a Syria, etc.

I've no doubt there are dodgy deals in Donny's closet, and quite possibly dirty money and all the rest of it, which anyone going through his affairs with a fine-tooth comb will uncover. But, the notion that the world's biggest military power is in Putin's pocket only stands up when one disregards all evidence to the contrary.

[Edited 7/9/18 10:00am]



1. Trump did NOT want to arm Ukraine and in fact, made his one and only change to the GOP platform to WEAKEN United States support for Ukraine: https://www.washingtonpos...1ef6c5a222

What changed - if anything - between the GOP convention and the decision to supply Ukraine some weapons? I don't know. Well, Paul Manafort got indicted, so there's that. I can tell you what DIDN'T change - Trump has absolutely refused to condemn Russia's annexation of Crimea. In fact, he doesn't even blame Putin for invading Crimea...

...he blames President Obama. https://www.denverpost.co...-disagree/

Let us not forget that Russia was kicked out of the G-8 for invading Crimea and just last month, President Trump told the remaining G-7 leaders that Russia should be readmitted to the group. Whose side do you think Trump is on? HINT: It sure ain't Crimea's side.

2. Trump had to be literally threatened to implement the sanctions that Congress approved. It took him months until he finally implemented them (and only some of them, I think). The latest sanctions aren't against Russia the country - they're against five Russian entities and the 13 Russians that Robert Mueller indicted. Not really an example of Trump leading the way, I think you would agree.

This cracks me up - "They (Russia) are going to have to decide whether or not they want to be a good actor or a bad actor," press secretary Sarah Sanders said. WTF?!?! They decided that LOOOONNNGGGG ago - before they hacked into our elections systems; before they tried to hack into our energy grid; before they carried out a nerve gas attack on English soil; etc; etc; etc. Russia decided what they are; Trump knows what they are; and Russia has Trump and therefore the USA in its hip pocket. Man, that is OBVIOUS.

3. That was nothing more than joining Canada, the Ukraine(?!?) and the European nations in the expulsion. It was NOT an act of leadership. It was nothing like what President Obama did at the end of 2016, when he unilaterally expelled Russian diplomats and took their mansion as a penalty for Russian election meddling. Donald Trump's response? "It’s time for our country to move on to bigger and better things."

4. Those "attacks" were weak and ineffectual. They didn't take out all of Assad's chemical weapons capabilities; they left Assad and the necessary tools in place to reconstitute it; and in the meantime Assad was/is still free to use as many conventional bombs as he wants on civilians - with no consequences. Donald Trump is a little man with big bombs, but he doesn't know how to use them. Ask yourself these questions: (1) Is Assad any weaker today than he was prior to the bombings; and (2) are the people he has been attacking any better off today than they were prior to the bombings? The answers to those questions will tell you whether or not the USA/Britain/France airstrikes did anything other than help some bomb manufacturers' bottom lines

5. First of all, Trump has no idea what he's doing in this - at least, that's according to senators on both sides of the aisle. Second, to say that this is an action against Russia is really a stretch. It's an action FOR Saudi Arabia - a country who bamboozled Trump with bright lights and giant posters, so he thinks they're the bees' knees. If you are interested in what a clusterf*** this is, read this: https://foreignpolicy.com...-pentagon/

Donald Trump has sold out the United States of America. Whether it was willingly or unwillingly, who knows. But there is absolutely no doubt that no president in my lifetime has ever acquiesced or cowtowed or got down on their knees with their mouth open for Russia the way Donald Trump has. It's incredible but not as incredible as the American public's acceptance of this forced rape.

Geez.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's paladin
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Reply #21 posted 07/09/18 4:04pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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RodeoSchro said:

deebee said:

I've no idea about GOP obsequiousness. I do find it hard to fathom the Trump-Putin collusion yarn, though. At the level of foreign policy, it doesn't wash at all.

Here are a few highlights of US geostrategic opposition to Russia under Trump:


1. Arming the Ukrainian government in its conflict with separatists backed by Russia, and mobilising NATO allies around opposition to the "threat from Russia";
https://www.wsj.com/artic...1513999127

https://www.whitehouse.go...s-belgium/


2. Extending sanctions against Russia, which eventually led to the EU pleading for these to be relaxed;
https://www.rt.com/usa/42...s-prolong/
https://www.ft.com/conten...ac3a6482fd

3. Expelling Russian diplomats following alleged spy poisoning incident in UK;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...a-43545565

4. Launching military and diplomatic attacks against Russian ally Assad in Syria; and

https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...t-43691291
https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...t-43727829

5. Pouring arms into conflict in Yemen, in support of ally Saudia Arabia's ongoing proxy war with Russian ally Iran, escalating US involvement in the conflict.
https://www.al-monitor.co...a-uae.html
https://www.theguardian.c...ing-crisis

These are exactly the positions I'd expect a US President to take in the usual game of realpolitik with strategic adversaries - in this case Russia. In fact, we could make the case that Trump, now piloted by neocon Bolton, is moving towards an even more aggressive security agenda. It's certainly more oppositional than the previous administration's efforts to "reset" relations, avoid getting further embroiled in a Syria, etc.

I've no doubt there are dodgy deals in Donny's closet, and quite possibly dirty money and all the rest of it, which anyone going through his affairs with a fine-tooth comb will uncover. But, the notion that the world's biggest military power is in Putin's pocket only stands up when one disregards all evidence to the contrary.

[Edited 7/9/18 10:00am]



1. Trump did NOT want to arm Ukraine and in fact, made his one and only change to the GOP platform to WEAKEN United States support for Ukraine: https://www.washingtonpos...1ef6c5a222

What changed - if anything - between the GOP convention and the decision to supply Ukraine some weapons? I don't know. Well, Paul Manafort got indicted, so there's that. I can tell you what DIDN'T change - Trump has absolutely refused to condemn Russia's annexation of Crimea. In fact, he doesn't even blame Putin for invading Crimea...

...he blames President Obama. https://www.denverpost.co...-disagree/

Let us not forget that Russia was kicked out of the G-8 for invading Crimea and just last month, President Trump told the remaining G-7 leaders that Russia should be readmitted to the group. Whose side do you think Trump is on? HINT: It sure ain't Crimea's side.

2. Trump had to be literally threatened to implement the sanctions that Congress approved. It took him months until he finally implemented them (and only some of them, I think). The latest sanctions aren't against Russia the country - they're against five Russian entities and the 13 Russians that Robert Mueller indicted. Not really an example of Trump leading the way, I think you would agree.

This cracks me up - "They (Russia) are going to have to decide whether or not they want to be a good actor or a bad actor," press secretary Sarah Sanders said. WTF?!?! They decided that LOOOONNNGGGG ago - before they hacked into our elections systems; before they tried to hack into our energy grid; before they carried out a nerve gas attack on English soil; etc; etc; etc. Russia decided what they are; Trump knows what they are; and Russia has Trump and therefore the USA in its hip pocket. Man, that is OBVIOUS.

3. That was nothing more than joining Canada, the Ukraine(?!?) and the European nations in the expulsion. It was NOT an act of leadership. It was nothing like what President Obama did at the end of 2016, when he unilaterally expelled Russian diplomats and took their mansion as a penalty for Russian election meddling. Donald Trump's response? "It’s time for our country to move on to bigger and better things."

4. Those "attacks" were weak and ineffectual. They didn't take out all of Assad's chemical weapons capabilities; they left Assad and the necessary tools in place to reconstitute it; and in the meantime Assad was/is still free to use as many conventional bombs as he wants on civilians - with no consequences. Donald Trump is a little man with big bombs, but he doesn't know how to use them. Ask yourself these questions: (1) Is Assad any weaker today than he was prior to the bombings; and (2) are the people he has been attacking any better off today than they were prior to the bombings? The answers to those questions will tell you whether or not the USA/Britain/France airstrikes did anything other than help some bomb manufacturers' bottom lines

5. First of all, Trump has no idea what he's doing in this - at least, that's according to senators on both sides of the aisle. Second, to say that this is an action against Russia is really a stretch. It's an action FOR Saudi Arabia - a country who bamboozled Trump with bright lights and giant posters, so he thinks they're the bees' knees. If you are interested in what a clusterf*** this is, read this: https://foreignpolicy.com...-pentagon/

Donald Trump has sold out the United States of America. Whether it was willingly or unwillingly, who knows. But there is absolutely no doubt that no president in my lifetime has ever acquiesced or cowtowed or got down on their knees with their mouth open for Russia the way Donald Trump has. It's incredible but not as incredible as the American public's acceptance of this forced rape.

Geez.

Yes ^ nod

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #22 posted 07/09/18 4:42pm

herb4

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

herb4 said:


Go on. Can you elaborate please?.

We passed "the truth is in the middle" and "both sides do it" as a "common sense" stance and a reasonable view to hold and assert about 15 - 20 years ago by my count. To my eyes, asserting that is a cop out of sorts for people too wishy washy and intillectually lazy to face horrible truths and a somewhat lame attempt to pass themselves off as reasonable and logical. Probably due to the fact that certain friends and family members you have espouse conservative views and talking points on the regular and you love them to much to conclude that they are, in fact, misinformed, mean idiots, racists and apologists for all the things any rational person would realize are detrimental to free deomcratic and fair society.

Or having "common sense", such as it is.

I have common sense and I know the start of and a push for a theocratic dictatorship when I see it. The U.S, the world's beacon and loudest champion of "freedom" is, per capita, the world's largest jailer; and now we have moved to locking children in cages. Emboldened nazis run over people with cars and shoot up newspaper offices. We have a a 24/7 literal State Propaganda news network. Churches and pastors enjoy tax exempt status and preach politics from the pulpit, often inviting office seekers to politic from the dais.

We elected a 4x bankrupt reality TV star with a "small loan" million dollar head start form his dad under the auspice that he as a smart, self made business man who speaks of pardoning himself for his own crimes, hiding his finances, abandoning Jurice Prudence entirely, siding with white supremacists and who is on record as having comitted sexual assault. He lies demonstrably every day; citing easily refuted "alternative facts" that not only fly in the face of reality but are often contradicted by his OWN STATEMENTS, which he Tweets from teh Oval Office like a 13 year old girl.

I'm far past "but....but HER E-MAILS!!" and trying to pretend that what FOX NEws and AM Radio do is on the same level as CNN or WAPO. Bullshit.

Again, why no tax returns?

I have no idea what you’re trying to say here. I agree win general with what you posted as I’ve been saying the same thing all along since before he was elected. The topic was about putting the blame Obama for Trump and believing that he could magically solve all the problems that have existed since before he became president as if he or anybody has that sort of power. Common sense says that’s batshit crazy.


really? I thought I was rather clear. Too much so even. I was rather verbose.

"Common sense" says that a person like DJT could never even sniff the Presidency yet he won. There's a fine line between cynicism and reality. I was completely shocked that he won.

I'll make it shorter then. You have far more faith in our system of government at this stage of the game than I do. We are not governed by a democracy anymore. The criminals are running the show and making the rules. I think you are being naive.

Better? More clear?

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Reply #23 posted 07/09/18 8:11pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

herb4 said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

herb4 said: I have no idea what you’re trying to say here. I agree win general with what you posted as I’ve been saying the same thing all along since before he was elected. The topic was about putting the blame Obama for Trump and believing that he could magically solve all the problems that have existed since before he became president as if he or anybody has that sort of power. Common sense says that’s batshit crazy.


really? I thought I was rather clear. Too much so even. I was rather verbose.

"Common sense" says that a person like DJT could never even sniff the Presidency yet he won. There's a fine line between cynicism and reality. I was completely shocked that he won.

I'll make it shorter then. You have far more faith in our system of government at this stage of the game than I do. We are not governed by a democracy anymore. The criminals are running the show and making the rules. I think you are being naive.

Better? More clear?

No, honestly, and without any hint of condensation, i think it's you that is naive. You still seem to think things are different than at any time in American history. I mean c'mon we had the Iraq war and Vietnam. Democracy has always been and will always be a precarious thing. Donald Trump? That's democracy. He won. That says more about the American people than democracy. Sure democracy gets played. It always has and always will. Go back and look at how people just like you have said the same things since there have been records kept.


We're LUCKY (so far) that Trump hasn't started anything as bad as Vietnam or the Iraq war. You're living in a bubble isolated from history it seems.

[Edited 7/9/18 20:14pm]

CROOKED TRUMP. LOCK HIM UP!
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Reply #24 posted 07/10/18 2:59pm

herb4

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

herb4 said:


really? I thought I was rather clear. Too much so even. I was rather verbose.

"Common sense" says that a person like DJT could never even sniff the Presidency yet he won. There's a fine line between cynicism and reality. I was completely shocked that he won.

I'll make it shorter then. You have far more faith in our system of government at this stage of the game than I do. We are not governed by a democracy anymore. The criminals are running the show and making the rules. I think you are being naive.

Better? More clear?

No, honestly, and without any hint of condensation, i think it's you that is naive. You still seem to think things are different than at any time in American history. I mean c'mon we had the Iraq war and Vietnam. Democracy has always been and will always be a precarious thing. Donald Trump? That's democracy. He won. That says more about the American people than democracy. Sure democracy gets played. It always has and always will. Go back and look at how people just like you have said the same things since there have been records kept.


We're LUCKY (so far) that Trump hasn't started anything as bad as Vietnam or the Iraq war. You're living in a bubble isolated from history it seems.

[Edited 7/9/18 20:14pm]


Uh huh. And what have we learned?

I know my history better than most. No bubble here. And it seems we're repeating it. Worse, we've eleceted a full on FAscist as POTUS. Either engage with what I write or ignore me. You're speaking in generalities and I'm writing specifics. If you think this is business as usual just because bad shit has happened before then OK, I guess. But that doesn't leave me much to chew on.

Saying that Vietnam and Iraq happened only proves my point. Maybe it's just not happening fast enough for you to see it as anything but a pattern of noise and history repeating itself but we have nazis marching in our streets and in office. In 2018;

And Trump lost by 3 million votes.

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Reply #25 posted 07/10/18 3:49pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

herb4 said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:




herb4 said:




really? I thought I was rather clear. Too much so even. I was rather verbose.

"Common sense" says that a person like DJT could never even sniff the Presidency yet he won. There's a fine line between cynicism and reality. I was completely shocked that he won.

I'll make it shorter then. You have far more faith in our system of government at this stage of the game than I do. We are not governed by a democracy anymore. The criminals are running the show and making the rules. I think you are being naive.

Better? More clear?




No, honestly, and without any hint of condensation, i think it's you that is naive. You still seem to think things are different than at any time in American history. I mean c'mon we had the Iraq war and Vietnam. Democracy has always been and will always be a precarious thing. Donald Trump? That's democracy. He won. That says more about the American people than democracy. Sure democracy gets played. It always has and always will. Go back and look at how people just like you have said the same things since there have been records kept.


We're LUCKY (so far) that Trump hasn't started anything as bad as Vietnam or the Iraq war. You're living in a bubble isolated from history it seems.



[Edited 7/9/18 20:14pm]




Uh huh. And what have we learned?

I know my history better than most. No bubble here. And it seems we're repeating it. Worse, we've eleceted a full on FAscist as POTUS. Either engage with what I write or ignore me. You're speaking in generalities and I'm writing specifics. If you think this is business as usual just because bad shit has happened before then OK, I guess. But that doesn't leave me much to chew on.

Saying that Vietnam and Iraq happened only proves my point. Maybe it's just not happening fast enough for you to see it as anything but a pattern of noise and history repeating itself but we have nazis marching in our streets and in office. In 2018;

And Trump lost by 3 million votes.



Oh brother. You do know that the electoral college didn’t just happen in 2016 right? It’s been something EVERY election so far has had to contend with. Lol

I have nothing against you, I even respect you, but you just seem confused and not really sure about what. Like an old man yelling at the clouds.
CROOKED TRUMP. LOCK HIM UP!
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Reply #26 posted 07/11/18 5:05am

deebee

avatar

RodeoSchro said:

deebee said:

I've no idea about GOP obsequiousness. I do find it hard to fathom the Trump-Putin collusion yarn, though. At the level of foreign policy, it doesn't wash at all.

Here are a few highlights of US geostrategic opposition to Russia under Trump:


1. Arming the Ukrainian government in its conflict with separatists backed by Russia, and mobilising NATO allies around opposition to the "threat from Russia";
https://www.wsj.com/artic...1513999127

https://www.whitehouse.go...s-belgium/


2. Extending sanctions against Russia, which eventually led to the EU pleading for these to be relaxed;
https://www.rt.com/usa/42...s-prolong/
https://www.ft.com/conten...ac3a6482fd

3. Expelling Russian diplomats following alleged spy poisoning incident in UK;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...a-43545565

4. Launching military and diplomatic attacks against Russian ally Assad in Syria; and

https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...t-43691291
https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...t-43727829

5. Pouring arms into conflict in Yemen, in support of ally Saudia Arabia's ongoing proxy war with Russian ally Iran, escalating US involvement in the conflict.
https://www.al-monitor.co...a-uae.html
https://www.theguardian.c...ing-crisis

These are exactly the positions I'd expect a US President to take in the usual game of realpolitik with strategic adversaries - in this case Russia. In fact, we could make the case that Trump, now piloted by neocon Bolton, is moving towards an even more aggressive security agenda. It's certainly more oppositional than the previous administration's efforts to "reset" relations, avoid getting further embroiled in a Syria, etc.

I've no doubt there are dodgy deals in Donny's closet, and quite possibly dirty money and all the rest of it, which anyone going through his affairs with a fine-tooth comb will uncover. But, the notion that the world's biggest military power is in Putin's pocket only stands up when one disregards all evidence to the contrary.

[Edited 7/9/18 10:00am]



1. Trump did NOT want to arm Ukraine and in fact, made his one and only change to the GOP platform to WEAKEN United States support for Ukraine: https://www.washingtonpos...1ef6c5a222

What changed - if anything - between the GOP convention and the decision to supply Ukraine some weapons? I don't know. Well, Paul Manafort got indicted, so there's that. I can tell you what DIDN'T change - Trump has absolutely refused to condemn Russia's annexation of Crimea. In fact, he doesn't even blame Putin for invading Crimea...

...he blames President Obama. https://www.denverpost.co...-disagree/

Let us not forget that Russia was kicked out of the G-8 for invading Crimea and just last month, President Trump told the remaining G-7 leaders that Russia should be readmitted to the group. Whose side do you think Trump is on? HINT: It sure ain't Crimea's side.

2. Trump had to be literally threatened to implement the sanctions that Congress approved. It took him months until he finally implemented them (and only some of them, I think). The latest sanctions aren't against Russia the country - they're against five Russian entities and the 13 Russians that Robert Mueller indicted. Not really an example of Trump leading the way, I think you would agree.

This cracks me up - "They (Russia) are going to have to decide whether or not they want to be a good actor or a bad actor," press secretary Sarah Sanders said. WTF?!?! They decided that LOOOONNNGGGG ago - before they hacked into our elections systems; before they tried to hack into our energy grid; before they carried out a nerve gas attack on English soil; etc; etc; etc. Russia decided what they are; Trump knows what they are; and Russia has Trump and therefore the USA in its hip pocket. Man, that is OBVIOUS.

3. That was nothing more than joining Canada, the Ukraine(?!?) and the European nations in the expulsion. It was NOT an act of leadership. It was nothing like what President Obama did at the end of 2016, when he unilaterally expelled Russian diplomats and took their mansion as a penalty for Russian election meddling. Donald Trump's response? "It’s time for our country to move on to bigger and better things."

4. Those "attacks" were weak and ineffectual. They didn't take out all of Assad's chemical weapons capabilities; they left Assad and the necessary tools in place to reconstitute it; and in the meantime Assad was/is still free to use as many conventional bombs as he wants on civilians - with no consequences. Donald Trump is a little man with big bombs, but he doesn't know how to use them. Ask yourself these questions: (1) Is Assad any weaker today than he was prior to the bombings; and (2) are the people he has been attacking any better off today than they were prior to the bombings? The answers to those questions will tell you whether or not the USA/Britain/France airstrikes did anything other than help some bomb manufacturers' bottom lines

5. First of all, Trump has no idea what he's doing in this - at least, that's according to senators on both sides of the aisle. Second, to say that this is an action against Russia is really a stretch. It's an action FOR Saudi Arabia - a country who bamboozled Trump with bright lights and giant posters, so he thinks they're the bees' knees. If you are interested in what a clusterf*** this is, read this: https://foreignpolicy.com...-pentagon/

Donald Trump has sold out the United States of America. Whether it was willingly or unwillingly, who knows. But there is absolutely no doubt that no president in my lifetime has ever acquiesced or cowtowed or got down on their knees with their mouth open for Russia the way Donald Trump has. It's incredible but not as incredible as the American public's acceptance of this forced rape.

Geez.


1. "What changed ... between the GOP convention and the decision to supply Ukraine some weapons?" Well, one obvious thing that changed between the 2016 report from the campaign you link to and the 2017 reports on actual policy I linked to, is.....he got elected! And, as so many politicians before him, the bullish campaign trail rhetoric faded into the mundane business of government. (You'll have noticed he's also ditched that campaign pledge to keep winning and winning until people get tired of it, too.) In this case, he's servicing America's ongoing foreign policy commitments in its role as North Atlantic hegemon, as all the little dutiful soldiers that take the office do (albeit in their more hawkish/more dovish ways), led, I don't doubt, by State Dept officials, rather than his own smarts.

And are you saying that his not really wanting to arm Ukraine, but doing so anyway, is evidence of blackmail? Shouldn't blackmail work the other way around, i.e. that the victim doesn't really want to do something, but does it anyway? Policy here doesn't support your hypothesis.

2. Once again, he's done it, regardless of his 'wants'. Where or not he's "leading the way" is neither here nor there in relation to the contention that he's prohibited from doing so by blackmail. If he's being blackmailed, it ain't working very well, 'cos it's only affecting his 'wants', not his actions! Sidenote: 'Smart sanctions' are common, these days - the notion being, as far as I'm aware, that they avoid the humanitarian costs and economic disruption of generalised sanctions.

3. You've slipped into talking about "leadership" again. I personally don't think Big Don could lead a band of suicidal rats from a sinking ship, but it's not what we're talking about here. It's another actual thing that has happened that's inconsistent with the contention that Don is serving Russian regime interests.

4. Well, again, I don't seek to defend his policies as good (nor, indeed, do I think some kind of intensive bombing campaign would be desirable). I merely say that they're inconsistent with the blackmail hypothesis.

5. It's not a stretch. That's how international relations works. States ally with other states in various regions and defend their security interests. Saudia Arabia and Iran are vying for hegemony in much of the Gulf region, with the US unequivocally backing SA (with the highly sensible deal with Iran squashed beneath Donny's sagging tush). In fairness, I'm jumping the gun a little in painting Russia as part of a 'bloc' with Iran, as Moscow is cannily hedging its bets between the two regional rivals. But it is clear that Russia opposes Trump's attempts to isolate Iran, and is trying to thwart these moves, showing more stridently that it will oppose the US striving to become dominant internationally - with Yemen being the stage on which this is playing out. Again, this opposition doesn't fit the thesis that Trump and Putin are in cahoots.

Trump may well have "no idea what he's doing in this", but he'd know very well what to do if he had a Russian voice at the end of a secret call telling him to back off or the peepee tapes get released.

Again, I have no desire to defend Trump. I'm just showing where the evidence doesn't support the Trump-Putin alliance hypothesis; and how there's a danger of fixating on that hypothesis and simply waving away facts that don't fit with it, e.g. saying 'he didn't really want to' or 'he doesn't know what he's doing', etc.

[Edited 7/11/18 5:19am]

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #27 posted 07/11/18 6:40am

poppys

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

herb4 said:


Uh huh. And what have we learned?

I know my history better than most. No bubble here. And it seems we're repeating it. Worse, we've eleceted a full on FAscist as POTUS. Either engage with what I write or ignore me. You're speaking in generalities and I'm writing specifics. If you think this is business as usual just because bad shit has happened before then OK, I guess. But that doesn't leave me much to chew on.

Saying that Vietnam and Iraq happened only proves my point. Maybe it's just not happening fast enough for you to see it as anything but a pattern of noise and history repeating itself but we have nazis marching in our streets and in office. In 2018;

And Trump lost by 3 million votes.

Oh brother. You do know that the electoral college didn’t just happen in 2016 right? It’s been something EVERY election so far has had to contend with. Lol I have nothing against you, I even respect you, but you just seem confused and not really sure about what. Like an old man yelling at the clouds.


And yet you said Trump should get the Nobel prize for talking to North Korea. And Cornel West says what he says because he is old. AND the Las Vegas shooter killed all those people because he was old. This is not critical thinking, another go-to of yours.

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Reply #28 posted 07/11/18 7:32am

daingermouz202
0

Somethings going on. That would explain the GOP's lack of balls.

These Republicans have no dignity at all it's amazing to watch. I could never be in their shoes. I have to much pride to jyst go along when I do not agree.
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Reply #29 posted 07/11/18 7:32am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

poppys said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

herb4 said: Oh brother. You do know that the electoral college didn’t just happen in 2016 right? It’s been something EVERY election so far has had to contend with. Lol I have nothing against you, I even respect you, but you just seem confused and not really sure about what. Like an old man yelling at the clouds.


And yet you said Trump should get the Nobel prize for talking to North Korea. And Cornel West says what he says because he is old. AND the Las Vegas shooter killed all those people because he was old. This is not critical thinking, another go-to of yours.

lol, lack of critical thinking just posting that up there. People here, the right wingers said Trump should get the Noble Prize. I said I didn't care if he did and further, also that there was no way in hell they would give it to him in the first place. lol


Second, i do think West is a half senile old man. Not seeing that is also not using critical thinking. lol

CROOKED TRUMP. LOCK HIM UP!
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