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Reply #150 posted 06/07/18 6:33am

2freaky4church
1

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What about the sad realities of sexism.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #151 posted 06/07/18 9:50am

CherryMoon57

^Yep, that too. I got made redundant exactely 24 hours after handing in my maternity leave notice so I should know. Some on this thread have been talking about there being 'too many' unwanted children on this planet, but from what I can see there clearly isn't much space for mothers either. neutral

'Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter' Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Reply #152 posted 06/07/18 11:47am

SupaFunkyOrgan
grinderSexy

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CherryMoon57 said:

jaawwnn said:

Yes that's true. Tell you what, when we have the perfect society we can talk about a blanket ban on abortion but until then we have to be realistic about it and make it as safe as possible for the mother.

It's interesting how a woman who is pregnant and wants to abort from what most do not want to acknowledge as being a baby or a child, is still called a 'mother'.

We are conditioned that way. You're right we should say pregnant woman instead.

2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740
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Reply #153 posted 06/07/18 11:49am

SupaFunkyOrgan
grinderSexy

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CherryMoon57 said:

^Yep, that too. I got made redundant exactely 24 hours after handing in my maternity leave notice so I should know. Some on this thread have been talking about there being 'too many' unwanted children on this planet, but from what I can see there clearly isn't much space for mothers either. neutral

And that is a huge part of the issue. Peopel want to tell women what to do WITHOUT giving them real alternatives like TRUE support systems. They want women to bend to their will without giving the help that, were it to be there in a meaningful way, would prevent many women from choosing abortion.

2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740
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Reply #154 posted 06/07/18 2:00pm

CherryMoon57

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

CherryMoon57 said:

^Yep, that too. I got made redundant exactely 24 hours after handing in my maternity leave notice so I should know. Some on this thread have been talking about there being 'too many' unwanted children on this planet, but from what I can see there clearly isn't much space for mothers either. neutral

And that is a huge part of the issue. Peopel want to tell women what to do WITHOUT giving them real alternatives like TRUE support systems. They want women to bend to their will without giving the help that, were it to be there in a meaningful way, would prevent many women from choosing abortion.


That said, it didn't change my decision to have a child in the slightest and I did manage very well without my job. I don't think it would have been worth missing out on the joys of motherhood. Babies - especially when breastfed - cost hardly anything at all (as long as you steer away from the plastic industry gimmicks).

[Edited 6/7/18 14:02pm]

'Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter' Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Reply #155 posted 06/07/18 2:20pm

SupaFunkyOrgan
grinderSexy

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CherryMoon57 said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

And that is a huge part of the issue. Peopel want to tell women what to do WITHOUT giving them real alternatives like TRUE support systems. They want women to bend to their will without giving the help that, were it to be there in a meaningful way, would prevent many women from choosing abortion.


That said, it didn't change my decision to have a child in the slightest and I did manage very well without my job. I don't think it would have been worth missing out on the joys of motherhood. Babies - especially when breastfed - cost hardly anything at all (as long as you steer away from the plastic industry gimmicks).

[Edited 6/7/18 14:02pm]

you live in FRANCE where social safety nets are very different. My Husband is French and is triggered all the time at how unsupportive it is in America. American's don't have the luxury of the government giving a shit about their well being.

2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740
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Reply #156 posted 06/07/18 3:06pm

CherryMoon57

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

CherryMoon57 said:


That said, it didn't change my decision to have a child in the slightest and I did manage very well without my job. I don't think it would have been worth missing out on the joys of motherhood. Babies - especially when breastfed - cost hardly anything at all (as long as you steer away from the plastic industry gimmicks).

[Edited 6/7/18 14:02pm]

you live in FRANCE where social safety nets are very different. My Husband is French and is triggered all the time at how unsupportive it is in America. American's don't have the luxury of the government giving a shit about their well being.

I live in the UK actually but the system is fairly supportive like in France, although I don't use social support other than healthcare which is free for everyone. I have lived in the States before so I know exactely what you mean. What I can say however is that the quality of the medical care I received whilst in the US was far superior than that in the UK, they do make you pay for it though.

'Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter' Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Reply #157 posted 06/14/18 9:48am

jaawwnn

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CherryMoon57 said:

jaawwnn said:

Yes that's true. Tell you what, when we have the perfect society we can talk about a blanket ban on abortion but until then we have to be realistic about it and make it as safe as possible for the mother.

It's interesting how a woman who is pregnant and wants to abort from what most do not want to acknowledge as being a baby or a child, is still called a 'mother'.

forgot all about this thread. That's not all that interesting tbh, i'd opine it's fairly mundane actually, but thanks for calling out my lexical error. Abortion should still be available.

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Reply #158 posted 06/14/18 4:18pm

CherryMoon57

jaawwnn said:

CherryMoon57 said:

It's interesting how a woman who is pregnant and wants to abort from what most do not want to acknowledge as being a baby or a child, is still called a 'mother'.

forgot all about this thread. That's not all that interesting tbh, i'd opine it's fairly mundane actually, but thanks for calling out my lexical error. Abortion should still be available.


This was not directed specifically at you, I only noted it because most people do it and I find it rather interesting in an ironic way.

I don't understand why it is always the 'mother' who gets all the rights and attention, while the human-being inside her has none at all, and is not even considered a 'baby' let alone a 'person'. Therefore I don't think it is fair to call this way of disregarding the baby's rights, a pro-choice stance, when it is in fact just a pro-abortion one.

The video I had posted from the BBC news website*, really exposes that aspect of it, when the lady who managed to survive her mother's abortion (which had been organised by her grandmother) says she will always wonder what it was in her (grandmother's) life that made her take that decision on hers.

And that is exactely what I wanted to highlight in this thread but not many seem to understand the view from the future person's side. If someone was really pro-choice, they would try to consider this, but most pro-choice people do not want to.

*Full interview here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...h-44357373

'Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter' Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Reply #159 posted 06/15/18 4:06am

UhJerome

ThatWhiteDude said:

NEVERMIND All I want to say is that only women own their bodies and only they decide what to do to it.

[Edited 5/27/18 16:16pm]

[Edited 5/27/18 16:28pm]


I agree.

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Reply #160 posted 06/15/18 4:10am

UhJerome

CherryMoon57 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

watching now just over a min in and that one doctor admitted to negligent homicide. The fact is most successful abortions end in a death... Planned Parenthood not only advocated for killing but facilitates them. This is not even something one can argue.


you can absolutely argue against them without making ANY appeal to religion.


Yep. As the doctor in the video explains, there is also a psychological price to pay. I know three women close to me (one of them being my mum) who deeply regret having done the abortion. Not only do they regret doing it but the physical and psychological issues they've had and are still having now as a result of their 'choice' (even decades later) makes them realise that it was not all worth it after all. My mum was actually pressured into aborting by her own family and her family doctor, which makes her experience even worse.


. . . and I know four women who had abortions and didn't pay any "psychological price" for it, and
don't regret having the procedure performed. So, whether or not there is a "sad reality of abortion"
is mostly individualized and shouldn't be applied contextually to all women (and men) who maturely
and responsibly elect abortion as a viable option.

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Reply #161 posted 06/15/18 5:09am

CherryMoon57

UhJerome said:

CherryMoon57 said:


Yep. As the doctor in the video explains, there is also a psychological price to pay. I know three women close to me (one of them being my mum) who deeply regret having done the abortion. Not only do they regret doing it but the physical and psychological issues they've had and are still having now as a result of their 'choice' (even decades later) makes them realise that it was not all worth it after all. My mum was actually pressured into aborting by her own family and her family doctor, which makes her experience even worse.


. . . and I know four women who had abortions and didn't pay any "psychological price" for it, and
don't regret having the procedure performed. So, whether or not there is a "sad reality of abortion"
is mostly individualized and shouldn't be applied contextually to all women (and men) who maturely
and responsibly elect abortion as a viable option.


The 'sad reality' part of the OP was mostly about the fact that some babies are still alive when the abortion is being performed and are then just left aside until they die, as part of the procedure.

You should just watch the related videos (the one in the OP, from the doctors' perspective and the other from a survivor of this process, see BBC Link above).

Besides, just because a woman says that 'everything is fine' for them, doesn't mean it really is or that the procedure is ethical.

'Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter' Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Reply #162 posted 06/15/18 6:06am

UhJerome

CherryMoon57 said:

UhJerome said:


. . . and I know four women who had abortions and didn't pay any "psychological price" for it, and
don't regret having the procedure performed. So, whether or not there is a "sad reality of abortion"
is mostly individualized and shouldn't be applied contextually to all women (and men) who maturely
and responsibly elect abortion as a viable option.


The 'sad reality' part of the OP was mostly about the fact that some babies are still alive when the abortion is being performed and are then just left aside until they die, as part of the procedure.

You should just watch the related videos (the one in the OP, from the doctors' perspective and the other from a survivor of this process, see BBC Link above).

Besides, just because a woman says that 'everything is fine' for them, doesn't mean it really is or that the procedure is ethical.


I don't need to watch a video in order to make the argument that for some women, there is no
"psychological price to pay" for having an abortion, and that when performed safely and decided
upon by a sane, reasonable, and functioning individual, an abortion can be a viable option wholly
ethical.

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Reply #163 posted 06/15/18 2:19pm

CherryMoon57

UhJerome said:

CherryMoon57 said:


The 'sad reality' part of the OP was mostly about the fact that some babies are still alive when the abortion is being performed and are then just left aside until they die, as part of the procedure.

You should just watch the related videos (the one in the OP, from the doctors' perspective and the other from a survivor of this process, see BBC Link above).

Besides, just because a woman says that 'everything is fine' for them, doesn't mean it really is or that the procedure is ethical.


I don't need to watch a video in order to make the argument that for some women, there is no
"psychological price to pay" for having an abortion, and that when performed safely and decided
upon by a sane, reasonable, and functioning individual, an abortion can be a viable option wholly
ethical.


I was suggesting you watched the video in relation to the 'sad reality' that you thought was referring to the psychological aspect of abortion only, but unfortunately there is more to this 'sad reality' than just the woman's perspective. Exploring different angles in an argument is sane and reasonable too.

Why refuse to even watch the video that the thread you are posting in is actually about? Are you worried that you might learn something?

'Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter' Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Reply #164 posted 06/15/18 3:20pm

TD3

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The United States has and continues to practice Eugenics. If you think this issue is really about abortion, think again; its about population control, who's having babies, who can't conceive children and/or women who don't want to have children in the first place.. So, save me propaganda bullshit: We don't take care of the children we have now. The significant percentage of children who don't make to the age of five in the United States... is on par with so called "3d world nations". About three weeks ago, The New York Times Magazine did a story about the alarming rise of Black women dying after giving birth and infants dying before their 2nd birthday. CDC study suggest the stress of racism along with indifferent medical care appears to be the cause.

U.S. doesn't give a flyin' fuck about providing health care to its citizen's. We sure don't give a fuck about children health care.... medical funding has already been cut by the federal government. Unless these people have spoken with every woman who's had an abortion, they don't know shit. From my small circles of friends, these women made the best decision for themselves at that time. These day, vast majority of women and teenage girls are taking the morning after pill in the U.S.

=================================

[Edited 6/15/18 18:24pm]

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Reply #165 posted 06/18/18 3:28am

jaawwnn

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CherryMoon57 said:

jaawwnn said:

forgot all about this thread. That's not all that interesting tbh, i'd opine it's fairly mundane actually, but thanks for calling out my lexical error. Abortion should still be available.


This was not directed specifically at you, I only noted it because most people do it and I find it rather interesting in an ironic way.

I don't understand why it is always the 'mother' who gets all the rights and attention, while the human-being inside her has none at all, and is not even considered a 'baby' let alone a 'person'. Therefore I don't think it is fair to call this way of disregarding the baby's rights, a pro-choice stance, when it is in fact just a pro-abortion one.

The video I had posted from the BBC news website*, really exposes that aspect of it, when the lady who managed to survive her mother's abortion (which had been organised by her grandmother) says she will always wonder what it was in her (grandmother's) life that made her take that decision on hers.

And that is exactely what I wanted to highlight in this thread but not many seem to understand the view from the future person's side. If someone was really pro-choice, they would try to consider this, but most pro-choice people do not want to.

*Full interview here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...h-44357373

Well (obama voice) let me be clear, abortion is an ending of a life (or a potential life depending on how you want to see it). Female bodies reject foetuses all the time, in huge numbers. You may argue that this is 'natural' and therefore ok, to which I respond out that we don't live in a natural world, we live in houses and wear clothes and use computers and connect to the internet and read books etc. etc..

No one wants an abortion, no one is delighted to be having one, but it still needs to be available. If you would force your raped 12 year old daughter to bring a baby to term so be it because that is the reality of a total ban on abortion.

As for rights, from my point of view the "unborn" have none. They are 100% trumped by the mother.

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Reply #166 posted 06/18/18 4:59am

CherryMoon57

jaawwnn said:

CherryMoon57 said:


This was not directed specifically at you, I only noted it because most people do it and I find it rather interesting in an ironic way.

I don't understand why it is always the 'mother' who gets all the rights and attention, while the human-being inside her has none at all, and is not even considered a 'baby' let alone a 'person'. Therefore I don't think it is fair to call this way of disregarding the baby's rights, a pro-choice stance, when it is in fact just a pro-abortion one.

The video I had posted from the BBC news website*, really exposes that aspect of it, when the lady who managed to survive her mother's abortion (which had been organised by her grandmother) says she will always wonder what it was in her (grandmother's) life that made her take that decision on hers.

And that is exactely what I wanted to highlight in this thread but not many seem to understand the view from the future person's side. If someone was really pro-choice, they would try to consider this, but most pro-choice people do not want to.

*Full interview here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...h-44357373

Well (obama voice) let me be clear, abortion is an ending of a life (or a potential life depending on how you want to see it). Female bodies reject foetuses all the time, in huge numbers. You may argue that this is 'natural' and therefore ok, to which I respond out that we don't live in a natural world, we live in houses and wear clothes and use computers and connect to the internet and read books etc. etc..

No one wants an abortion, no one is delighted to be having one, but it still needs to be available. If you would force your raped 12 year old daughter to bring a baby to term so be it because that is the reality of a total ban on abortion.

As for rights, from my point of view the "unborn" have none. They are 100% trumped by the mother.


As with everything in life there are special circumstances like the extreme scenario that you have mentioned, and I agree that this certainly would make a valid cause for concerns around the outcomes of such a pregnancy (if naturally viable of course). But because that type of situation does not reflect the other - less consequential - circumstances surrounding the majority of abortions, it does very little to justify an otherwise debatable procedure. But since you mention it, I will raise further questions:

- Do we all know the circumstances surrounding our conception?

- Are we all issued from perfect marriages, from parents or ancestors who loved and respected each other?

- Does a parent's negative experience always impact on their children?

- Do these negative experiences make one's child(ren) less worthy of living?

- Do they devalue the offspring's own future experiences or simply who they are as a person?

- Do the circumstances in which a mother finds herself (war, poverty, crime, illness, etc.) always impact on her ability to love and raise her children?

Food for thought...


'Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter' Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Reply #167 posted 06/18/18 5:20am

jaawwnn

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CherryMoon57 said:


As with everything in life there are special circumstances like the extreme scenario that you have mentioned, and I agree that this certainly would make a valid cause for concerns around the outcomes of such a pregnancy (if naturally viable of course). But because that type of situation does not reflect the other - less consequential - circumstances surrounding the majority of abortions, it does very little to justify an otherwise debatable procedure. But since you mention it, I will raise further questions:

- Do we all know the circumstances surrounding our conception?

- Are we all issued from perfect marriages, from parents or ancestors who loved and respected each other?

- Does a parent's negative experience always impact on their children?

- Do these negative experiences make one's child(ren) less worthy of living?

- Do they devalue the offspring's own future experiences or simply who they are as a person?

- Do the circumstances in which a mother finds herself (war, poverty, crime, illness, etc.) always impact on her ability to love and raise her children?

Food for thought...


I'm sorry, i'm not being sarky with you here but i'm not sure what you're getting at, regardless of my answers to your questions i'd still arrive at a pro-choice position. I'll go through it

- Do we all know the circumstances surrounding our conception? No.

- Are we all issued from perfect marriages, from parents or ancestors who loved and respected each other? No.

- Does a parent's negative experience always impact on their children? Yes.

- Do these negative experiences make one's child(ren) less worthy of living? No.

- Do they devalue the offspring's own future experiences or simply who they are as a person? No.

- Do the circumstances in which a mother finds herself (war, poverty, crime, illness, etc.) always impact on her ability to love and raise her children? Yes.



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Reply #168 posted 07/25/18 4:23pm

CherryMoon57

Fair point...

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'Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter' Martin Luther King, Jr.
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