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Reply #90 posted 01/18/18 10:46am

sexton

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They must not be football fans. The point I was making initially was that those Caucasians know all about calling black people monkeys.

[Edited 1/18/18 11:55am]

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Reply #91 posted 01/18/18 11:33am

paisleypark4

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okay yeah, really does not make sense that they didnt catch on to this right away especially all of them looking at least 40 and up should know better.

Download all the shit hop that you can for your kids, neices, nephews, and their friends also. That will prevent them from going out and buying it and will prevent some shit hop sales. Every little bit helps - Andy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus
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Reply #92 posted 01/18/18 12:26pm

toejam

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jjhunsecker said:

It might only prove that the mother either desperately needed the money, or that she's an idiot.

.

I doubt that. A more likely scenario is that she simply didn't find the hoodie racist, understanding the positive sense in which the phrase "cool monkey" is often applied to children for their cuteness, nimbleness, wittiness, innocence, etc. I reckon there's a good chance that his mother has affectionately called her child a "cool monkey" or some variation in the past and simply saw the hoodie, as many mothers probably also saw it, as a cute little hoodie for a child (black or non-black).

.

My mother has with affection called me a "nigger". Should I (or any other Black person) give a blanket pass to a non-Black person calling me that, unless I unambiguously knew their intent?

.

Yes. You can always clarify their intent.

.

"Monkey" along with ape and gorilla and any simian, is too loaded a comparison to any Black person, and you can't just expect people who have probably been called an "ape" or "monkey" in their lives in a hate filled insulting manner, or know people who have been, to just automatically asscept that it might be OK in this manner.

.

Yet it seems the phrase "little monkey" obviously wasn't loaded enough to offend this black mother and her child during the photoshoot, nor be picked up by the photographer or the catalogue designers. I don't expect anyone to automatically accept anything. But once one understands that there wasn't any malice intended, that the child, his mother, the photographer, the catalogue designer simply saw a cute kid wearing a cute hoodie, then there's no need to be upset and calling for linguistic segregation. There's nothing racist going on here.

.

Every child should be allowed the right to be referred to as a "cool monkey" in the positive sense in which it is used around the world by many adults to describe their cute children. Children, black and non-black, can often be very much like "cool little monkeys", being very cute, nimble / quick to climb stuff (there's a reason we call those climbing things in a children's playground "monkey bars"!), they're often witty, and have an innocence that gets lost with age. These are all positive traits. To say that black kids can't be included in this probably most ancient affectionate language while they're non-black counterparts can is racist linguistic segregation.

.

[Edited 1/18/18 12:42pm]

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #93 posted 01/18/18 1:03pm

toejam

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How far are some of you prepared to go?

.

Would you ban black children from playing the roles of Curious George, Monkey (from "Monkey Magic"), Playful Heart Monkey, Abu (from Aladdin), etc. in a school play?

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #94 posted 01/18/18 1:35pm

jjhunsecker

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toejam said:

jjhunsecker said:

It might only prove that the mother either desperately needed the money, or that she's an idiot.

.

I doubt that. A more likely scenario is that she simply didn't find the hoodie racist, understanding the positive sense in which the phrase "cool monkey" is often applied to children for their cuteness, nimbleness, wittiness, innocence, etc. I reckon there's a good chance that his mother has affectionately called her child a "cool monkey" or some variation in the past and simply saw the hoodie, as many mothers probably also saw it, as a cute little hoodie for a child (black or non-black).

.

.

Yes. You can always clarify their intent.

.

"Monkey" along with ape and gorilla and any simian, is too loaded a comparison to any Black person, and you can't just expect people who have probably been called an "ape" or "monkey" in their lives in a hate filled insulting manner, or know people who have been, to just automatically asscept that it might be OK in this manner.

.

Yet it seems the phrase "little monkey" obviously wasn't loaded enough to offend this black mother and her child during the photoshoot, nor be picked up by the photographer or the catalogue designers. I don't expect anyone to automatically accept anything. But once one understands that there wasn't any malice intended, that the child, his mother, the photographer, the catalogue designer simply saw a cute kid wearing a cute hoodie, then there's no need to be upset and calling for linguistic segregation. There's nothing racist going on here.

.

Every child should be allowed the right to be referred to as a "cool monkey" in the positive sense in which it is used around the world by many adults to describe their cute children. Children, black and non-black, can often be very much like "cool little monkeys", being very cute, nimble / quick to climb stuff (there's a reason we call those climbing things in a children's playground "monkey bars"!), they're often witty, and have an innocence that gets lost with age. These are all positive traits. To say that black kids can't be included in this probably most ancient affectionate language while they're non-black counterparts can is racist linguistic segregation.

.

[Edited 1/18/18 12:42pm]

The mother is probably either very stupid, or simply cared for the paycheck.



Why is it so hard for you to admit that some words and images are loaded, especially when they are applied to certain groups of people ? What next, a kid in a yarmulke with a shirt with a coin scale on it ? Or how about an Italian kid with a shirt featuring a severed horse's head in a bed on it ?

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Reply #95 posted 01/18/18 2:07pm

toejam

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I doubt the mother was stupid or that she was so desperate for a paycheck that she would have her child degraded in a hoodie as racist as you seem to think it is.

A more likely explanation is that she isn't stupid and saw no harm in having her child wear the hoodie, probably finding it cute and appropriate for her child and others, black or non-black. This goes against your view that "any Black person" would find this as "loaded" as you do.

Every child should be allowed the right to wear this cute hoodie and share in the affectionate and positive sense of being called a "cool monkey". And every mother has the right to describe her child in this way too. They also have the right to express this on a piece of clothing, and a store has he right to advertise and sell it. Segregating language and images, as you would seem to prefer, so that black children and their mothers can't share in, is racist.

.
[Edited 1/18/18 14:13pm]
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #96 posted 01/18/18 2:15pm

jjhunsecker

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toejam said:

I doubt the mother was stupid or that she was so desperate for a paycheck that she would have her child degraded in a hoodie as racist as you seem to think it is. A more likely explanation is that she isn't stupid and saw no harm in having her child wear the hoodie, probably finding it cute and appropriate for her child and others, black or non-black. This goes against your view that "any Black person" would find this as "loaded" as you do. Every child should be allowed the right to wear this cute hoodie and share in the affectionate and positive sense of being called a "cool monkey". And every mother has the right to describe her child in this way too. Segregating language so that black children and their mothers can't share in this is racist. . [Edited 1/18/18 14:08pm]

So MILLIONS of Black people who would find a comparison to simians in any way, shape, or form, are just what...exactly ? Deluded ? Overly sensitive ? Too stupid to parse the "intent" of the company ?

Perhaps this mother didn't find it "offensive". Does that mean the multitudes who did are completely and undeniably WRONG on this issue ?

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Reply #97 posted 01/18/18 2:51pm

SuperFurryAnim
al

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Diversion tactic everything made is made by modern slave labor.

Trump turns from 'humbling' grief to midterm fire and furry
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Reply #98 posted 01/18/18 2:58pm

paisleypark4

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toejam said:

I doubt the mother was stupid or that she was so desperate for a paycheck that she would have her child degraded in a hoodie as racist as you seem to think it is. A more likely explanation is that she isn't stupid and saw no harm in having her child wear the hoodie, probably finding it cute and appropriate for her child and others, black or non-black. This goes against your view that "any Black person" would find this as "loaded" as you do. Every child should be allowed the right to wear this cute hoodie and share in the affectionate and positive sense of being called a "cool monkey". And every mother has the right to describe her child in this way too. They also have the right to express this on a piece of clothing, and a store has he right to advertise and sell it. Segregating language and images, as you would seem to prefer, so that black children and their mothers can't share in, is racist. . [Edited 1/18/18 14:13pm]

I know they SHOULD be able to enjoy those rights but we have our racist past to thank for them not being able to enjoy these things in society. Thanks slavery..thanks masters..thanks supremecists and racists who made this happen. We have them to thank for that. We didnt create that stigma and now we have to live with their acts and actions to this very day. This is why we have to protest and fight and argue and bicker to let it be known over and over agiain that it will not happen to us ever again.



What are you not understanding about this?

Download all the shit hop that you can for your kids, neices, nephews, and their friends also. That will prevent them from going out and buying it and will prevent some shit hop sales. Every little bit helps - Andy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus
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Reply #99 posted 01/18/18 5:01pm

toejam

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

Perhaps this mother didn't find it "offensive". Does that mean the multitudes who did are completely and undeniably WRONG on this issue ?

Yes. There's no need for anyone to be offended once they understand the innocence and affectionate nature behind the phrase which is commonly used around the world. Stop denying a black family's right to participate in using language the same way non-black families do.

.
[Edited 1/18/18 18:47pm]
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #100 posted 01/18/18 6:59pm

jjhunsecker

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toejam said:

jjhunsecker said:
Perhaps this mother didn't find it "offensive". Does that mean the multitudes who did are completely and undeniably WRONG on this issue ?
Yes. There's no need for anyone to be offended once they understand the innocence and affectionate nature behind the phrase which is commonly used around the world. Stop denying a black family's right to participate in using language the same way non-black families do. . [Edited 1/18/18 18:47pm]

I'm not denying her "right". I'm explaining why the overwhelming majority of Black people would find it offensive. It sounds as if you think that most Black people are WRONG to take offense at this, given the loaded history of racist comparisons to apes and gorillas and monkeys. And in the 21st Century, a corporation and and ad agency should have known better

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Reply #101 posted 01/18/18 7:01pm

jjhunsecker

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paisleypark4 said:

toejam said:

I doubt the mother was stupid or that she was so desperate for a paycheck that she would have her child degraded in a hoodie as racist as you seem to think it is. A more likely explanation is that she isn't stupid and saw no harm in having her child wear the hoodie, probably finding it cute and appropriate for her child and others, black or non-black. This goes against your view that "any Black person" would find this as "loaded" as you do. Every child should be allowed the right to wear this cute hoodie and share in the affectionate and positive sense of being called a "cool monkey". And every mother has the right to describe her child in this way too. They also have the right to express this on a piece of clothing, and a store has he right to advertise and sell it. Segregating language and images, as you would seem to prefer, so that black children and their mothers can't share in, is racist. . [Edited 1/18/18 14:13pm]

I know they SHOULD be able to enjoy those rights but we have our racist past to thank for them not being able to enjoy these things in society. Thanks slavery..thanks masters..thanks supremecists and racists who made this happen. We have them to thank for that. We didnt create that stigma and now we have to live with their acts and actions to this very day. This is why we have to protest and fight and argue and bicker to let it be known over and over agiain that it will not happen to us ever again.



What are you not understanding about this?

Every word you say here makes sense to ME ...

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Reply #102 posted 01/18/18 7:17pm

toejam

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jjhunsecker said:

I'm not denying her "right". I'm explaining why the overwhelming majority of Black people would find it offensive. It sounds as if you think that most Black people are WRONG to take offense at this, given the loaded history of racist comparisons to apes and gorillas and monkeys. And in the 21st Century, a corporation and and ad agency should have known better

Yes, I am saying that people who think the hoodie is racist are wrong - regardless whether they are black or non-black. I don't know what percentage of black people find it racist but it wouldn't matter whether it's a high or low percentage. The hoodie and image is not racist. If people perceive racism, they are mistaken.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #103 posted 01/18/18 7:37pm

jjhunsecker

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toejam said:

jjhunsecker said:
I'm not denying her "right". I'm explaining why the overwhelming majority of Black people would find it offensive. It sounds as if you think that most Black people are WRONG to take offense at this, given the loaded history of racist comparisons to apes and gorillas and monkeys. And in the 21st Century, a corporation and and ad agency should have known better
Yes, I am saying that people who think the hoodie is racist are wrong - regardless whether they are black or non-black. I don't know what percentage of black people find it racist but it wouldn't matter whether it's a high or low percentage. The hoodie and image is not racist. If people perceive racism, they are mistaken.

I guess that's that...you're right and everybody who has a different point of view or perspective on this issue is wrong. And their finding this offensive is based on nothing, I guess ....

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Reply #104 posted 01/18/18 8:29pm

benni

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I've debated about joining this thread. Usually, I can identify a case of racism when I see it. I have never been one to shy away from threads discussing race here, and will support what many of you say in describing racism that you see or have experienced. I always try to be very thoughtful in my responses related to racism because it's only in discussing it, education, and pointing out racism where we see it, that we are ever going to find a way to put an end to it. I sincerely believe it starts with ourselves, with teaching our children correctly, and teaching others. I used to say I was "color blind" and I didn't know that was offensive until a friend pointed out to me that she wants me to see her color, that to say that I don't see her color can be offensive and insulting. I would say it, not because I ever wanted to insult her, but because my intent behind that statement was merely that I do not judge a person based on the color of their skin, but rather look at who they show themselves to be as an individual and color does not come into play with that.

I read the original article. Then I read the article that talked about the mom and how she did not believe this was racist in any way and did not understand all the outrage from it. (Mom is from Kenya originally). And I find myself on the fence with this one, as I can see both sides.

I'm thinking if I'm designing children's clothes and we come up with a neat jungle theme that we want to explore in our clothing, with slogans that have a jungle theme. Someone comes up with "coolest monkey in the jungle" and my first thought is not going to be, "Oh, that could be very racist in the wrong context." Especially, as a white person, who has never had to face racism herself. I'm thinking jungle theme, what animals are in a jungle, what cute slogans can we come up with. As a white person, who has never experienced racism directed at her, my thinking is purely innocent. Monkeys, tigers, parrots...whatever other animals you find in a jungle. My focus is purely innocent with no ill will meant towards any one, because I've never lived with racism directed at me so I'm not going to immediately think that anything I'm coming up with could be anything other than purely innocent. Now, if the mom, or another POC had approached me and said, "Okay, you do realize this could be misconstrued, don't you?" I would then have started thinking larger, what is the unintentional message that I might be sending. The problem is, mom saw nothing wrong with it when her son modeled the shirt and did not say that it could be misconstrued, and the brand wasn't thinking about unintentional messages, but was merely playing with a jungle theme for their clothing.

There are always going to be those things that have unintentional messages but the original intent was innocent.

Now, whether that is what happened with this company, I don't know. After seeing the shirts that closely resemble clothing that Jewish people wore in concentration camps and them having had previous experience with unintentional messages, then I would have to say that they might not really care about what unintentional message they send. Unless they fired those people and started over with new people who didn't live through that situation.

Ugh. I can see it both ways, and I hate when I can't state, "Yes, definitely, it is this way". I always want to figure it out and pick a side, but I'm still on the fence on this one.

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Reply #105 posted 01/18/18 9:16pm

toejam

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jjhunsecker said:

I guess that's that...you're right and everybody who has a different point of view or perspective on this issue is wrong. And their finding this offensive is based on nothing, I guess ....


We both hold different opinions on this, obviously. That is that, it seems.

I don't see the hoodie or the image of a black child wearing it as racist. Calling a kid a "cool monkey" is a common, affectionate, often appropriate, positive phrase. This can be the case whether a kid is black or not-black.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #106 posted 01/18/18 11:41pm

poppys

toejam said:

jjhunsecker said:
I guess that's that...you're right and everybody who has a different point of view or perspective on this issue is wrong. And their finding this offensive is based on nothing, I guess ....
We both hold different opinions on this, obviously. That is that, it seems. I don't see the hoodie or the image of a black child wearing it as racist. Calling a kid a "cool monkey" is a common, affectionate, often appropriate, positive phrase. This can be the case whether a kid is black or not-black.

Of course, in an ideal world, or a vacuum, every image and word can be weighed equally and "judged" the same. Not the case here. To insist that this is the universal norm racially is not reality right now.

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Reply #107 posted 01/19/18 4:31am

toejam

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Whether something is racist or not is not determined by popular vote. The black mother in discussion here correctly interpreted the intended meaning behind the hoodie's text as being a positive term of affection. And she had no qualms having her son photographed wearing it nor the image published in a catalogue. The hoodie is for anyone who wants it. It's not designed for black kids only or something. The text is not saying that one race is like a monkey in a negative deficient sense. Indeed, the text makes no reference to race whatsoever.

There is no racism going on here. The only racism I see is that coming from those who want to suggest that people cannot be free to share in the same vocabulary usage as others due to the colour of their skin.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #108 posted 01/19/18 5:46am

SuperFurryAnim
al

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Let's worry whats on t-shirts that are made by slave labor for places like the Gap in UK.

Trump turns from 'humbling' grief to midterm fire and furry
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Reply #109 posted 01/19/18 7:05am

DiminutiveRock
er

avatar

benni said:

I've debated about joining this thread. Usually, I can identify a case of racism when I see it. I have never been one to shy away from threads discussing race here, and will support what many of you say in describing racism that you see or have experienced. I always try to be very thoughtful in my responses related to racism because it's only in discussing it, education, and pointing out racism where we see it, that we are ever going to find a way to put an end to it. I sincerely believe it starts with ourselves, with teaching our children correctly, and teaching others. I used to say I was "color blind" and I didn't know that was offensive until a friend pointed out to me that she wants me to see her color, that to say that I don't see her color can be offensive and insulting. I would say it, not because I ever wanted to insult her, but because my intent behind that statement was merely that I do not judge a person based on the color of their skin, but rather look at who they show themselves to be as an individual and color does not come into play with that.

I read the original article. Then I read the article that talked about the mom and how she did not believe this was racist in any way and did not understand all the outrage from it. (Mom is from Kenya originally). And I find myself on the fence with this one, as I can see both sides.

I'm thinking if I'm designing children's clothes and we come up with a neat jungle theme that we want to explore in our clothing, with slogans that have a jungle theme. Someone comes up with "coolest monkey in the jungle" and my first thought is not going to be, "Oh, that could be very racist in the wrong context." Especially, as a white person, who has never had to face racism herself. I'm thinking jungle theme, what animals are in a jungle, what cute slogans can we come up with. As a white person, who has never experienced racism directed at her, my thinking is purely innocent. Monkeys, tigers, parrots...whatever other animals you find in a jungle. My focus is purely innocent with no ill will meant towards any one, because I've never lived with racism directed at me so I'm not going to immediately think that anything I'm coming up with could be anything other than purely innocent. Now, if the mom, or another POC had approached me and said, "Okay, you do realize this could be misconstrued, don't you?" I would then have started thinking larger, what is the unintentional message that I might be sending. The problem is, mom saw nothing wrong with it when her son modeled the shirt and did not say that it could be misconstrued, and the brand wasn't thinking about unintentional messages, but was merely playing with a jungle theme for their clothing.

There are always going to be those things that have unintentional messages but the original intent was innocent.

Now, whether that is what happened with this company, I don't know. After seeing the shirts that closely resemble clothing that Jewish people wore in concentration camps and them having had previous experience with unintentional messages, then I would have to say that they might not really care about what unintentional message they send. Unless they fired those people and started over with new people who didn't live through that situation.

Ugh. I can see it both ways, and I hate when I can't state, "Yes, definitely, it is this way". I always want to figure it out and pick a side, but I'm still on the fence on this one.


I do think it may have been done unintentionally, but it was a major mistake by H&M not noticing that it could be taken in the worst way. - which is was.

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #110 posted 01/19/18 7:08am

DiminutiveRock
er

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sexton said:

It's hard to believe those responsible for the ad were oblivious to the historic, racist association between Africans and monkeys. Europeans sure seem to remember it when they see black players at football games with their monkey chants.


Bingoi!

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #111 posted 01/19/18 7:46am

benni

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DiminutiveRocker said:

benni said:

I've debated about joining this thread. Usually, I can identify a case of racism when I see it. I have never been one to shy away from threads discussing race here, and will support what many of you say in describing racism that you see or have experienced. I always try to be very thoughtful in my responses related to racism because it's only in discussing it, education, and pointing out racism where we see it, that we are ever going to find a way to put an end to it. I sincerely believe it starts with ourselves, with teaching our children correctly, and teaching others. I used to say I was "color blind" and I didn't know that was offensive until a friend pointed out to me that she wants me to see her color, that to say that I don't see her color can be offensive and insulting. I would say it, not because I ever wanted to insult her, but because my intent behind that statement was merely that I do not judge a person based on the color of their skin, but rather look at who they show themselves to be as an individual and color does not come into play with that.

I read the original article. Then I read the article that talked about the mom and how she did not believe this was racist in any way and did not understand all the outrage from it. (Mom is from Kenya originally). And I find myself on the fence with this one, as I can see both sides.

I'm thinking if I'm designing children's clothes and we come up with a neat jungle theme that we want to explore in our clothing, with slogans that have a jungle theme. Someone comes up with "coolest monkey in the jungle" and my first thought is not going to be, "Oh, that could be very racist in the wrong context." Especially, as a white person, who has never had to face racism herself. I'm thinking jungle theme, what animals are in a jungle, what cute slogans can we come up with. As a white person, who has never experienced racism directed at her, my thinking is purely innocent. Monkeys, tigers, parrots...whatever other animals you find in a jungle. My focus is purely innocent with no ill will meant towards any one, because I've never lived with racism directed at me so I'm not going to immediately think that anything I'm coming up with could be anything other than purely innocent. Now, if the mom, or another POC had approached me and said, "Okay, you do realize this could be misconstrued, don't you?" I would then have started thinking larger, what is the unintentional message that I might be sending. The problem is, mom saw nothing wrong with it when her son modeled the shirt and did not say that it could be misconstrued, and the brand wasn't thinking about unintentional messages, but was merely playing with a jungle theme for their clothing.

There are always going to be those things that have unintentional messages but the original intent was innocent.

Now, whether that is what happened with this company, I don't know. After seeing the shirts that closely resemble clothing that Jewish people wore in concentration camps and them having had previous experience with unintentional messages, then I would have to say that they might not really care about what unintentional message they send. Unless they fired those people and started over with new people who didn't live through that situation.

Ugh. I can see it both ways, and I hate when I can't state, "Yes, definitely, it is this way". I always want to figure it out and pick a side, but I'm still on the fence on this one.


I do think it may have been done unintentionally, but it was a major mistake by H&M not noticing that it could be taken in the worst way. - which is was.


I agree that it was definitely a mistake, but do you see how the unintentional message could have been overlooked from the example I gave above? I mean, I always try to be thoughtful of other people's thoughts and feelings. I'm a social worker, I have to be that way, but it's also just a part of who I am (guess that's why I'm a social worker). But as a white person, whose only experience with racism directed at me was when I first saw Prince on television and I said, "Now that is one sexy man" and found myself immediately on the floor because my ex husband hit me, with him standing over me and calling me a very foul name, my first thought would not to be that something I see as entirely innocent, "Cool, let's use jungle theme slogans on our clothes!" could be misconstrued racially. The child they used was absolutely adorable, and I guess I look at his innocence and I'm still thinking innocently, naively, perhaps, but not looking at it as anything sinister.

I mean if I'm in a mindset of kids, and cute slogans, and innocence, my mind isn't going to just automatically jump to something so heinous as racism in that slogan. It's not something I have to deal with on a daily basis and so it's not at the forefront of my mind. And as with when I used to say, "I'm color blind," the intent was not one of ill-will, but when my friend educated me, I could understand her perspective, respected that, and realized how it could be seen as offensive. I was taught, learned, and changed how I worded things. Does that make me a racist because I used to say that, when my intent was purely innocent? If their intent was innocent, does that make this company racist and mean they deserve the backlash they are getting? Or should we instead be educating them productively to be more aware of cultural diversity when creating their ads and to look for those unintenional messages?

And adding: I'm still on the fence about this one because they've had to deal with backlash over some of their clothing before, so they should already know to be looking for unintentional messages in advertising and cultural sensitivity. I'm addressing this, because this is an interesting topic that I think deserves discussion - does innocence of intent, because someone just truly does not see how it can be misconstrued, deserve backlash, or better education?


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Reply #112 posted 01/19/18 7:58am

jjhunsecker

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DiminutiveRocker said:

benni said:

I've debated about joining this thread. Usually, I can identify a case of racism when I see it. I have never been one to shy away from threads discussing race here, and will support what many of you say in describing racism that you see or have experienced. I always try to be very thoughtful in my responses related to racism because it's only in discussing it, education, and pointing out racism where we see it, that we are ever going to find a way to put an end to it. I sincerely believe it starts with ourselves, with teaching our children correctly, and teaching others. I used to say I was "color blind" and I didn't know that was offensive until a friend pointed out to me that she wants me to see her color, that to say that I don't see her color can be offensive and insulting. I would say it, not because I ever wanted to insult her, but because my intent behind that statement was merely that I do not judge a person based on the color of their skin, but rather look at who they show themselves to be as an individual and color does not come into play with that.

I read the original article. Then I read the article that talked about the mom and how she did not believe this was racist in any way and did not understand all the outrage from it. (Mom is from Kenya originally). And I find myself on the fence with this one, as I can see both sides.

I'm thinking if I'm designing children's clothes and we come up with a neat jungle theme that we want to explore in our clothing, with slogans that have a jungle theme. Someone comes up with "coolest monkey in the jungle" and my first thought is not going to be, "Oh, that could be very racist in the wrong context." Especially, as a white person, who has never had to face racism herself. I'm thinking jungle theme, what animals are in a jungle, what cute slogans can we come up with. As a white person, who has never experienced racism directed at her, my thinking is purely innocent. Monkeys, tigers, parrots...whatever other animals you find in a jungle. My focus is purely innocent with no ill will meant towards any one, because I've never lived with racism directed at me so I'm not going to immediately think that anything I'm coming up with could be anything other than purely innocent. Now, if the mom, or another POC had approached me and said, "Okay, you do realize this could be misconstrued, don't you?" I would then have started thinking larger, what is the unintentional message that I might be sending. The problem is, mom saw nothing wrong with it when her son modeled the shirt and did not say that it could be misconstrued, and the brand wasn't thinking about unintentional messages, but was merely playing with a jungle theme for their clothing.

There are always going to be those things that have unintentional messages but the original intent was innocent.

Now, whether that is what happened with this company, I don't know. After seeing the shirts that closely resemble clothing that Jewish people wore in concentration camps and them having had previous experience with unintentional messages, then I would have to say that they might not really care about what unintentional message they send. Unless they fired those people and started over with new people who didn't live through that situation.

Ugh. I can see it both ways, and I hate when I can't state, "Yes, definitely, it is this way". I always want to figure it out and pick a side, but I'm still on the fence on this one.


I do think it may have been done unintentionally, but it was a major mistake by H&M not noticing that it could be taken in the worst way. - which is was.

Very true. We are now in the 21st Century. Was there NOBODY at the company or the ad agency who could have said "Wait a minute" ?

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Reply #113 posted 01/19/18 8:06am

benni

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jjhunsecker said:

DiminutiveRocker said:


I do think it may have been done unintentionally, but it was a major mistake by H&M not noticing that it could be taken in the worst way. - which is was.

Very true. We are now in the 21st Century. Was there NOBODY at the company or the ad agency who could have said "Wait a minute" ?


Let me ask this: Let's say the photographer thought something was off but didn't say anything. Mainly because that photographer is paid to take pictures, not voice an opinion. Who would be at fault? The company for not seeing it because their mind just didn't go there because racism isn't something they deal with on a daily basis, or the photographer who noticed but didn't say anything?

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Reply #114 posted 01/19/18 8:26am

jjhunsecker

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benni said:

jjhunsecker said:

Very true. We are now in the 21st Century. Was there NOBODY at the company or the ad agency who could have said "Wait a minute" ?


Let me ask this: Let's say the photographer thought something was off but didn't say anything. Mainly because that photographer is paid to take pictures, not voice an opinion. Who would be at fault? The company for not seeing it because their mind just didn't go there because racism isn't something they deal with on a daily basis, or the photographer who noticed but didn't say anything?

Both. I just find it very hard to believe that the comparison of Black people to apes and monkeys- which has been a worldwide racist trope for centuries, and is not some obscure recent meme on the Internet- totally escaped these executives at the company. I'm not even saying they did it deliberately. But how obtuse can they be ?

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Reply #115 posted 01/19/18 9:15am

poppys

jjhunsecker said:

benni said:


Let me ask this: Let's say the photographer thought something was off but didn't say anything. Mainly because that photographer is paid to take pictures, not voice an opinion. Who would be at fault? The company for not seeing it because their mind just didn't go there because racism isn't something they deal with on a daily basis, or the photographer who noticed but didn't say anything?

Both. I just find it very hard to believe that the comparison of Black people to apes and monkeys- which has been a worldwide racist trope for centuries, and is not some obscure recent meme on the Internet- totally escaped these executives at the company. I'm not even saying they did it deliberately. But how obtuse can they be ?

Clearly we have a lack of social diversity in this "World Class Board of Directors". Hire some new people or shut up already, damn!

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Reply #116 posted 01/19/18 12:58pm

benni

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jjhunsecker said:

benni said:


Let me ask this: Let's say the photographer thought something was off but didn't say anything. Mainly because that photographer is paid to take pictures, not voice an opinion. Who would be at fault? The company for not seeing it because their mind just didn't go there because racism isn't something they deal with on a daily basis, or the photographer who noticed but didn't say anything?

Both. I just find it very hard to believe that the comparison of Black people to apes and monkeys- which has been a worldwide racist trope for centuries, and is not some obscure recent meme on the Internet- totally escaped these executives at the company. I'm not even saying they did it deliberately. But how obtuse can they be ?


Unfortunately, jj, white people can be very obtuse.

Let me say first, I find racism abhorrent. I don't understand how anyone can judge another person simply by the color of their skin. I come from a family of racists and growing up in that household...I didn't understand it then, I don't understand now. (I swear I had to be adopted because I am considered the outsider in the family and am nothing like my family. For instance, they all support Trump. mad )

So, I am speaking now from my experience. I don't have to deal with racism directed towards myself, so it's not uppermost in my mind on my day to day personal interactions. When I decide to go out, it's not on my mind. Now working with my clients, yes, it is on my mind at those times because many of my clients are black and they have to deal with racism on a daily basis. Not to mention my black co-workers, since we work with elderly individuals of all races, there are times when we will have an elderly white person say, "I don't want no black person in my home." It is VERY MUCH on my mind at those times, because I work with some of the most incredible women you'd ever meet, women of true compassion, true heart, who want nothing more than to take care of their clients and make sure their needs are being met. Thankfully, that doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. And my clients are older and they are tough women, not afraid to say it like they see it. We will get in discussions about race sometimes, about what they experience, and I know I am supposed to maintain a professional demeanor, but at those times, when I hear their stories, I get teary eyed. It is something that just breaks your heart when you listen to what they have gone through, what they still go through.

But since I, personally, don't face racism as a challenge in my life, in my personal life, unless I see it occurring, and I need to step in and call it out as I see it, it's just not a part of my life. I would not have thought twice about that shirt and the picture, if it weren't for the backlash, because my mind just doesn't go there. I would have just thought, "Aww, what a cute kid and cute shirt." I mean I do know the history of people equating black people with apes, but my mind doesn't go there, I don't personally make that comparison, and so I would fail to see the issue with it. I don't know if that makes me a bad person, or not. I mean, I hope I'm not a bad person. I've always tried very hard to be someone who lives by the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I've never judged a person based on their skin color, though I may make an exception for orange skin now, so my automatic thought process just wouldn't go there, wouldn't see it.

It's not that I don't see it now, since the backlash, because I do because there is a history there. But my automatic thought process would not have seen it if it hadn't been pointed out. I guess that does make me somewhat bad in that regards then. And it makes me understand that we still have a long way to go.

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Reply #117 posted 01/19/18 1:46pm

NorthC

poppys said:



jjhunsecker said:




benni said:




Let me ask this: Let's say the photographer thought something was off but didn't say anything. Mainly because that photographer is paid to take pictures, not voice an opinion. Who would be at fault? The company for not seeing it because their mind just didn't go there because racism isn't something they deal with on a daily basis, or the photographer who noticed but didn't say anything?



Both. I just find it very hard to believe that the comparison of Black people to apes and monkeys- which has been a worldwide racist trope for centuries, and is not some obscure recent meme on the Internet- totally escaped these executives at the company. I'm not even saying they did it deliberately. But how obtuse can they be ?



Clearly we have a lack of social diversity in this "World Class Board of Directors". Hire some new people or shut up already, damn!


1) They're from Sweden, so you can expect some white people there.
2) They actually did what you asked and hired a "global diversity manager" by the name of Annie Wu.
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
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Reply #118 posted 01/19/18 2:14pm

214

benni said:

I've debated about joining this thread. Usually, I can identify a case of racism when I see it. I have never been one to shy away from threads discussing race here, and will support what many of you say in describing racism that you see or have experienced. I always try to be very thoughtful in my responses related to racism because it's only in discussing it, education, and pointing out racism where we see it, that we are ever going to find a way to put an end to it. I sincerely believe it starts with ourselves, with teaching our children correctly, and teaching others. I used to say I was "color blind" and I didn't know that was offensive until a friend pointed out to me that she wants me to see her color, that to say that I don't see her color can be offensive and insulting. I would say it, not because I ever wanted to insult her, but because my intent behind that statement was merely that I do not judge a person based on the color of their skin, but rather look at who they show themselves to be as an individual and color does not come into play with that.

I read the original article. Then I read the article that talked about the mom and how she did not believe this was racist in any way and did not understand all the outrage from it. (Mom is from Kenya originally). And I find myself on the fence with this one, as I can see both sides.

I'm thinking if I'm designing children's clothes and we come up with a neat jungle theme that we want to explore in our clothing, with slogans that have a jungle theme. Someone comes up with "coolest monkey in the jungle" and my first thought is not going to be, "Oh, that could be very racist in the wrong context." Especially, as a white person, who has never had to face racism herself. I'm thinking jungle theme, what animals are in a jungle, what cute slogans can we come up with. As a white person, who has never experienced racism directed at her, my thinking is purely innocent. Monkeys, tigers, parrots...whatever other animals you find in a jungle. My focus is purely innocent with no ill will meant towards any one, because I've never lived with racism directed at me so I'm not going to immediately think that anything I'm coming up with could be anything other than purely innocent. Now, if the mom, or another POC had approached me and said, "Okay, you do realize this could be misconstrued, don't you?" I would then have started thinking larger, what is the unintentional message that I might be sending. The problem is, mom saw nothing wrong with it when her son modeled the shirt and did not say that it could be misconstrued, and the brand wasn't thinking about unintentional messages, but was merely playing with a jungle theme for their clothing.

There are always going to be those things that have unintentional messages but the original intent was innocent.

Now, whether that is what happened with this company, I don't know. After seeing the shirts that closely resemble clothing that Jewish people wore in concentration camps and them having had previous experience with unintentional messages, then I would have to say that they might not really care about what unintentional message they send. Unless they fired those people and started over with new people who didn't live through that situation.

Ugh. I can see it both ways, and I hate when I can't state, "Yes, definitely, it is this way". I always want to figure it out and pick a side, but I'm still on the fence on this one.

I like your reasoning, it's difficult to really know that their intentions were.

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Reply #119 posted 01/19/18 2:49pm

DiminutiveRock
er

avatar

benni said:

jjhunsecker said:

Both. I just find it very hard to believe that the comparison of Black people to apes and monkeys- which has been a worldwide racist trope for centuries, and is not some obscure recent meme on the Internet- totally escaped these executives at the company. I'm not even saying they did it deliberately. But how obtuse can they be ?


Unfortunately, jj, white people can be very obtuse.

Let me say first, I find racism abhorrent. I don't understand how anyone can judge another person simply by the color of their skin. I come from a family of racists and growing up in that household...I didn't understand it then, I don't understand now. (I swear I had to be adopted because I am considered the outsider in the family and am nothing like my family. For instance, they all support Trump. mad )

So, I am speaking now from my experience. I don't have to deal with racism directed towards myself, so it's not uppermost in my mind on my day to day personal interactions. When I decide to go out, it's not on my mind. Now working with my clients, yes, it is on my mind at those times because many of my clients are black and they have to deal with racism on a daily basis. Not to mention my black co-workers, since we work with elderly individuals of all races, there are times when we will have an elderly white person say, "I don't want no black person in my home." It is VERY MUCH on my mind at those times, because I work with some of the most incredible women you'd ever meet, women of true compassion, true heart, who want nothing more than to take care of their clients and make sure their needs are being met. Thankfully, that doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. And my clients are older and they are tough women, not afraid to say it like they see it. We will get in discussions about race sometimes, about what they experience, and I know I am supposed to maintain a professional demeanor, but at those times, when I hear their stories, I get teary eyed. It is something that just breaks your heart when you listen to what they have gone through, what they still go through.

But since I, personally, don't face racism as a challenge in my life, in my personal life, unless I see it occurring, and I need to step in and call it out as I see it, it's just not a part of my life. I would not have thought twice about that shirt and the picture, if it weren't for the backlash, because my mind just doesn't go there. I would have just thought, "Aww, what a cute kid and cute shirt." I mean I do know the history of people equating black people with apes, but my mind doesn't go there, I don't personally make that comparison, and so I would fail to see the issue with it. I don't know if that makes me a bad person, or not. I mean, I hope I'm not a bad person. I've always tried very hard to be someone who lives by the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I've never judged a person based on their skin color, though I may make an exception for orange skin now, so my automatic thought process just wouldn't go there, wouldn't see it.

It's not that I don't see it now, since the backlash, because I do because there is a history there. But my automatic thought process would not have seen it if it hadn't been pointed out. I guess that does make me somewhat bad in that regards then. And it makes me understand that we still have a long way to go.

Nicely said, Benni smile

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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