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Thread started 11/23/17 9:03am

deebee

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"Butcher of Bosnia" Ratko Mladić jailed for life for war atrocities

Certainly, international criminal proceedings are a partial business - in both senses of the word. And the verdict won't change the political situation Mladić helped create in Bosnia, which still exists to this day. (As the journalist who revealed the concentration camps in Bosnia noted today, the status quo in today's Bosnia is the result of the ethnic cleansing the general oversaw.) Nor does the punishment ever seem to balance the crime in such cases, and it won't do much for relatives of the victims. But, yet and still, it's hard not to be a little gratified by seeing the old ratbag convicted and sent down.
- - -

Former Bosnian Serb commander Ratko Mladic has been jailed for life for genocide and other atrocities in the 1990s Bosnian war.

Known as the "Butcher of Bosnia", Mladic led forces during the massacre of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) in Srebrenica and the siege of Sarajevo.

The UN tribunal in The Hague convicted him on 10 of the 11 charges.

Mladic, 74, was not in court when the sentence was read out. He had been removed for shouting at the judges.

"It's a lie. Everything you said in this courtroom is a lie," he said.

The outburst came after the judges rejected a request by his team to halt the proceedings because of Mladic's high blood pressure.

Mladic has denied all the charges and his lawyer said he would appeal.

What were the crimes?

Mladic was the military commander of Bosnian Serb forces against Bosnian Croat and Bosniak armies. He had been on trial at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) since 2012.

It found that Mladic "significantly contributed" to the genocide in Srebrenica in 1995, where more than 7,000 Bosniak men and boys were murdered, the worst atrocity in Europe since World War Two.

He was cleared of a second count of genocide in other municipalities. The other charges included war crimes and crimes against humanity.

p05nb4lv.jpg

"The soil here is soaked with blood" - Srebrenica survivor Mevludin Oric


Presiding judge Alphons Orie read out many crimes committed by troops under Mladic's command, including:

  • Mass rapes of Bosniak women and girls
  • Keeping Bosniak prisoners in appalling conditions - starving, thirsty and sick - and beating them
  • Terrorising civilians in Sarajevo by shelling and sniping at them
  • Deporting Bosniaks forcibly en masse
  • Destroying Bosniaks' homes and mosques

Source: BBC

.

Short clip about the main charges against Mladić from Channel 4 News: https://www.channel4.com/...a-genocide

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #1 posted 11/24/17 8:53am

2freaky4church
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Note the irony. We give awards to ours.

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Reply #2 posted 11/24/17 1:32pm

Dasein

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Reply #3 posted 11/26/17 3:00am

deebee

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Dasein said:

Gen. Mladic was convicted of siege warfare in Bosnia. Will the US backed siege in Yemen face
justice?

Good article - thanks. What's being done to civilians in Yemen is absolutely horrific (https://www.channel4.com/...-of-famine), and it seems that its perpetrators will carry on with impunity and ever greater cost in human lives. Sadly, that critique of international justice being skewed by geopolitical power relations ('might is right') seems entirely correct. It's good to see Mladić get convicted and jailed, but there's no getting around the fact that he'd never have found himself in the dock had he been in with the big boys.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #4 posted 11/26/17 6:25am

KoolEaze

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Yugoslavia used to be such a beautiful country. I had many Yugoslav friends, Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians and Slowenians, and in the end they all ended up hating and killing each other. And these days some still hate each other and some regret the war and still have feelings of nostalgia for their old country and think the war was unnecessary.

No matter how long they put this person in prison , he´ll probably never understand why what he did was wrong, and his people will still call him a hero.

" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




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Reply #5 posted 11/26/17 7:12am

deebee

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KoolEaze said:

Yugoslavia used to be such a beautiful country. I had many Yugoslav friends, Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians and Slowenians, and in the end they all ended up hating and killing each other. And these days some still hate each other and some regret the war and still have feelings of nostalgia for their old country and think the war was unnecessary.

No matter how long they put this person in prison , he´ll probably never understand why what he did was wrong, and his people will still call him a hero.

Yeah, it's tragic. I don't have friends from there, but I've heard from people who have visited that there's still a lot of quiet hostility, and little in the way of 'reconcilliation'. The commentary on the verdict by the journalist who first reported about the camps, and later testified against both Mladić and Karadžić, mentioned that he's considered a hero by many in the country, and that the 'facts on the ground' he brutally transformed are still reflected in the ethnic makeup of Bosnia today. Seems a rather bleak picture.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #6 posted 11/26/17 1:17pm

2freaky4church
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Bosnia what not a genocide.

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Reply #7 posted 11/27/17 8:07am

deebee

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2freaky4church1 said:

Bosnia what not a genocide.

How do you mean? There was more going in that whole conflict than just genocide, no doubt. Nonetheless, both Karadžić and Mladić were found guilty of genocide over the massacre in Srebrenica. This was also the conflict that introduced the term 'ethnic cleansing' into our lexicon - to refer to systematic deracination through mass displacement and rape.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #8 posted 11/27/17 9:05am

KoolEaze

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deebee said:

KoolEaze said:

Yugoslavia used to be such a beautiful country. I had many Yugoslav friends, Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians and Slowenians, and in the end they all ended up hating and killing each other. And these days some still hate each other and some regret the war and still have feelings of nostalgia for their old country and think the war was unnecessary.

No matter how long they put this person in prison , he´ll probably never understand why what he did was wrong, and his people will still call him a hero.

Yeah, it's tragic. I don't have friends from there, but I've heard from people who have visited that there's still a lot of quiet hostility, and little in the way of 'reconcilliation'. The commentary on the verdict by the journalist who first reported about the camps, and later testified against both Mladić and Karadžić, mentioned that he's considered a hero by many in the country, and that the 'facts on the ground' he brutally transformed are still reflected in the ethnic makeup of Bosnia today. Seems a rather bleak picture.

There´s both nostalgia and a yearning for the pre-war era, shared memories of certain foods, TV shows and music, and yet there´s also a deeply rooted mutual hatred on all sides, though sometimes the Bosnians, Kosovo-Albanians and Crotians show solidarity against the Serbs because all three parties were affected by what the Serbs did to them.

As much as I hate what the Serbs did , I also try to understand their point of view and why they did what they did, for example when it comes to the Kosovo region, which is of huge historical importance to the Serbs and theoretically belongs to the Serbs (but was more or less taken away from them due to being inhabited by a Kosovarian majority these days).

I´ve been to Yugoslavia many times in the 70s and 80s, up until the war started, and I´ve always had many friends from the region, friends from all different background, basically from every region in Yugoslavia.

These days, there´s also a lot of resentment between the Bulgarians and Macedonians (Bulgarians say that Macedonians are Bulgarians, too) and then there´s the conflict between Macedonia (FYROM) and Greece due to the name that that country uses.

It´s a mess.

I find all of this highly interesting and familiar at the same time due to my Turkish background because similar tensions can be found in the Turkish and Kurdish communities, too, and what the media tells you is only one tiny piece of the bigger picture.

Discussing these issues is sometimes a bit frustrating because people rarely make an effort to hear both sides of the story.

" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




http://kooleasehvac.com/
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Reply #9 posted 11/27/17 9:34am

2freaky4church
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Because Human Rights Watch is Americacentric.

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Reply #10 posted 11/27/17 9:51am

2freaky4church
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BeeDee:

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Reply #11 posted 11/27/17 2:09pm

deebee

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KoolEaze said:

deebee said:

Yeah, it's tragic. I don't have friends from there, but I've heard from people who have visited that there's still a lot of quiet hostility, and little in the way of 'reconcilliation'. The commentary on the verdict by the journalist who first reported about the camps, and later testified against both Mladić and Karadžić, mentioned that he's considered a hero by many in the country, and that the 'facts on the ground' he brutally transformed are still reflected in the ethnic makeup of Bosnia today. Seems a rather bleak picture.

There´s both nostalgia and a yearning for the pre-war era, shared memories of certain foods, TV shows and music, and yet there´s also a deeply rooted mutual hatred on all sides, though sometimes the Bosnians, Kosovo-Albanians and Crotians show solidarity against the Serbs because all three parties were affected by what the Serbs did to them.

As much as I hate what the Serbs did , I also try to understand their point of view and why they did what they did, for example when it comes to the Kosovo region, which is of huge historical importance to the Serbs and theoretically belongs to the Serbs (but was more or less taken away from them due to being inhabited by a Kosovarian majority these days).

I´ve been to Yugoslavia many times in the 70s and 80s, up until the war started, and I´ve always had many friends from the region, friends from all different background, basically from every region in Yugoslavia.

These days, there´s also a lot of resentment between the Bulgarians and Macedonians (Bulgarians say that Macedonians are Bulgarians, too) and then there´s the conflict between Macedonia (FYROM) and Greece due to the name that that country uses.

It´s a mess.

I find all of this highly interesting and familiar at the same time due to my Turkish background because similar tensions can be found in the Turkish and Kurdish communities, too, and what the media tells you is only one tiny piece of the bigger picture.

Discussing these issues is sometimes a bit frustrating because people rarely make an effort to hear both sides of the story.

Interesting and characteristically fairminded, Kooly - and I certainly agree with the scepticism towards simplistic narratives and partisan media coverage. I don't doubt at all that there's a complex picture, and I recall at the time that there was wrongdoing by many different belligerent parties during the conflict. The massacre at Srebrenica and the atrocities against civilians during the siege of Sajajevo do seem to be beyond any legitimation, and it seems important to insist upon that - though I do agree that that shouldn't mean we don't seek to understand people's support for the likes of Mladić and the kind of brutal ethnic nationalism he represents. That's always an absolutely crucial question and an honourable thread of inquiry, in my view.

It's hard not to feel a little gratified by his conviction, in spite of having few illusions about just how biased international justice tends to be.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #12 posted 11/27/17 2:14pm

deebee

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2freaky4church1 said:

Because Human Rights Watch is Americacentric.

That's true - but I think we can sustain a critique of the biases of the media and international justice and also be honest about atrocities committed by both enemies and allies. Or else what we find ourselves construing and constructing is just an inverted version of the same old unjust world order.

This was an excellent documentary about the Srebrenica massacre, which includes footage showing Mladić's role in it:

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #13 posted 11/27/17 2:29pm

KoolEaze

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deebee said:

KoolEaze said:

There´s both nostalgia and a yearning for the pre-war era, shared memories of certain foods, TV shows and music, and yet there´s also a deeply rooted mutual hatred on all sides, though sometimes the Bosnians, Kosovo-Albanians and Crotians show solidarity against the Serbs because all three parties were affected by what the Serbs did to them.

As much as I hate what the Serbs did , I also try to understand their point of view and why they did what they did, for example when it comes to the Kosovo region, which is of huge historical importance to the Serbs and theoretically belongs to the Serbs (but was more or less taken away from them due to being inhabited by a Kosovarian majority these days).

I´ve been to Yugoslavia many times in the 70s and 80s, up until the war started, and I´ve always had many friends from the region, friends from all different background, basically from every region in Yugoslavia.

These days, there´s also a lot of resentment between the Bulgarians and Macedonians (Bulgarians say that Macedonians are Bulgarians, too) and then there´s the conflict between Macedonia (FYROM) and Greece due to the name that that country uses.

It´s a mess.

I find all of this highly interesting and familiar at the same time due to my Turkish background because similar tensions can be found in the Turkish and Kurdish communities, too, and what the media tells you is only one tiny piece of the bigger picture.

Discussing these issues is sometimes a bit frustrating because people rarely make an effort to hear both sides of the story.

Interesting and characteristically fairminded, Kooly - and I certainly agree with the scepticism towards simplistic narratives and partisan media coverage. I don't doubt at all that there's a complex picture, and I recall at the time that there was wrongdoing by many different belligerent parties during the conflict. The massacre at Srebrenica and the atrocities against civilians during the siege of Sajajevo do seem to be beyond any legitimation, and it seems important to insist upon that - though I do agree that that shouldn't mean we don't seek to understand people's support for the likes of Mladić and the kind of brutal ethnic nationalism he represents. That's always an absolutely crucial question and an honourable thread of inquiry, in my view.

It's hard not to feel a little gratified by his conviction, in spite of having few illusions about just how biased international justice tends to be.

Oh, absolutely, no doubt about that. (The bolded parts)

.

I was merely trying to say that such matters are often much more complex, and I know and appreciate that you are definitely one of those who try to understand the complexities of many conflicts, and the history behind them. Not many people make that effort these days.

" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




http://kooleasehvac.com/
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Reply #14 posted 11/29/17 11:57am

Dasein

Praljak was not playing around, eh?

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Reply #15 posted 11/29/17 12:27pm

2freaky4church
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He took it like a man. Too bad Kissinger will not. He spews poison, does not drink it.

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Reply #16 posted 12/02/17 10:09am

deebee

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Dasein said:

Praljak was not playing around, eh?

I can't for the life of me fathom how it was possible for that to happen. Madness.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #17 posted 12/03/17 8:19am

13cjk13

2freaky4church1 said:

He took it like a man. Too bad Kissinger will not. He spews poison, does not drink it.

Because we all know that "real men" commit genocide and then kill themselves.

Matthew 5:38-39
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
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