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Thread started 10/09/17 9:00am

morningsong

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A Spanish succession?

At least 350,000 people gathered in Barcelona, capital of Catalonia, for a rally against independence from Spain.

They waved Spanish and Catalan flags and carried banners saying "Together we are stronger" and "Catalonia is Spain".

It was the largest such rally in Catalonia amid the furore over last week's disputed independence referendum.

Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy has warned he would not rule out anything "within the law" to halt Catalan secession.

Similar rallies were held across Spain on Saturday.

The final results from the referendum in the wealthy north-eastern region suggested 90% of the 2.3 million people who voted backed independence. Turnout was 43%.

There have been several claims of irregularities, and many ballot boxes were seized by Spanish police.

Nearly 900 people were injured as the police, trying to enforce a Spanish court ban on the vote, attempted to disperse voters.

Thirty-three police officers were also hurt.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41544849

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #1 posted 10/09/17 9:01am

OnlyNDaUsa

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I did not expect a Spanish Succession!

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #2 posted 10/09/17 9:35am

morningsong

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It'll be interesting to watch since Spain is supposedly indivisible.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
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“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
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Reply #3 posted 10/09/17 9:40am

OnlyNDaUsa

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morningsong said:

It'll be interesting to watch since Spain is supposedly indivisible.

many things are "indivisible" until they are. A while ago I was at a restaurant and we asked for a split check... the lady said "we can not split checks..." and I said, "If you want to get paid you can..." she managed to work it out just fine.

"I was raped by the Arkansas AG who then becomes Governor & President..." Juanita Broaddrick
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Reply #4 posted 10/09/17 9:43am

morningsong

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Ok.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
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“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #5 posted 10/09/17 11:45am

PANDURITO

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For your peace of mind I will tell you that only one out of the supposed 900 injured by the Spanish Police brutality is still under medical care. He had a heart attack and is recovering well smile

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Reply #6 posted 10/09/17 11:51am

morningsong

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I guess you're saying the media is spinning the incident bigger than it was. But do you think it's impossible for Catalonia to separate? From the tiny bit I heard it would require them to leave the EU which would be a financial set back.

[Edited 10/9/17 11:52am]

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
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― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #7 posted 10/09/17 12:22pm

PANDURITO

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It's not impossible but they don't have it easy. Everything is against them and that they use to play victim again and again

Leaving EU and so leaving Euro is just the start. Many big enterprises are quickly leaving just in case. Their President is so irresponsible that might declare Independence unilaterally in the next hours. confused

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Reply #8 posted 10/09/17 12:49pm

morningsong

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In the next few hours? I didn't realize it was possibly that close.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
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“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
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Reply #9 posted 10/09/17 1:36pm

morningsong

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It sounds confusing, on one hand you have folks saying that it's impossible and Spain's government is posed to come in and take over, on another they say that it will happen but only as a symbolic gesture.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
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Reply #10 posted 10/09/17 2:25pm

Silvertongue7

morningsong said:

It sounds confusing, on one hand you have folks saying that it's impossible and Spain's government is posed to come in and take over, on another they say that it will happen but only as a symbolic gesture.


It is all an awful mess.
There is a huge move for independence in Catalonia. I am not a Catalan and I do not see any valitity to their claims, but the truth is that a huge part of the population want to secede from Spain. However, there is also an equally significant number of Catalan citizens that want to remain as part of Spain.
In the last few years the two sides have become increasingly polarised, partly because the Catalan government and other pro independence institutions have managed to galvanise their supporters, and partly due to the incompetence of the Spanish government, who seem to think that it will all pass; they seem to think that the push for independence is driven by politician rather that by the people, and that by stopping last week’s (illegal) referendum we would all live together happily again.
Now, last week’s referendum should have been, by all accounts, a waste of time. The referendum was illegal, called by a government with no authority to do so, and less than half of the population took part (the understanding being that the Catalans who didn’t vote didn’t do so because they don’t recognise its validity). Unfortunately the Spanish government, in all its wisdom, decided to send the police to stop the referendum, rather than let it fail, which the Catalan government and its propaganda machine used very successfully to give the impression internationally that the Spanish government won’t allow Catalans to exercise their legitimate right to vote (which is of course not true, Catalans are free to vote in the Catalan elections, the Spanish elections, the local elections and the European elections).
Since then the situation has escalated even more, and both sides have (quite peacefully) demonstrated to show their support or lack of thereof for independence (yesterday was a bit of a turning point, as for the first time there was a huge demonstration in Barcelona against independence, although a number of demonstrators might have travelled from other places in Spain to join the demonstration).
Which takes us to tomorrow (Tuesday). Originally the plan was to declare independence today, but the constitutional court in Spain (the highest court) did not allow it to go ahead. Supposedly, Catalan President Puigdemont will declare independence tomorrow, but whether he will dare to go ahead or in which terms he’ll do it remains to be seen.
Now, in any other country this should not have gone this far. I believe that a legal referendum should have been negotiated a while ago. I also believe that independence would have lost and we would all be in a much better position. But I believe doing things ‘por cojones’ is in our nature. Political rivals become enemies and the idea of negotiation and listening to the other’s point of view is not very widespread.
What is going to happen tomorrow, I don’t know. I have lived outside Spain for about 15 years now, and seeing it from abroad, together with my expat Catalan friends, is heartbreaking.
At one point the common sense will return. It has to. Let’s just hope that the current climate of confrontation doesn’t cause any irreparable damage.
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Reply #11 posted 10/09/17 4:13pm

morningsong

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Silvertongue7 said:

morningsong said:

It sounds confusing, on one hand you have folks saying that it's impossible and Spain's government is posed to come in and take over, on another they say that it will happen but only as a symbolic gesture.

It is all an awful mess. There is a huge move for independence in Catalonia. I am not a Catalan and I do not see any valitity to their claims, but the truth is that a huge part of the population want to secede from Spain. However, there is also an equally significant number of Catalan citizens that want to remain as part of Spain. In the last few years the two sides have become increasingly polarised, partly because the Catalan government and other pro independence institutions have managed to galvanise their supporters, and partly due to the incompetence of the Spanish government, who seem to think that it will all pass; they seem to think that the push for independence is driven by politician rather that by the people, and that by stopping last week’s (illegal) referendum we would all live together happily again. Now, last week’s referendum should have been, by all accounts, a waste of time. The referendum was illegal, called by a government with no authority to do so, and less than half of the population took part (the understanding being that the Catalans who didn’t vote didn’t do so because they don’t recognise its validity). Unfortunately the Spanish government, in all its wisdom, decided to send the police to stop the referendum, rather than let it fail, which the Catalan government and its propaganda machine used very successfully to give the impression internationally that the Spanish government won’t allow Catalans to exercise their legitimate right to vote (which is of course not true, Catalans are free to vote in the Catalan elections, the Spanish elections, the local elections and the European elections). Since then the situation has escalated even more, and both sides have (quite peacefully) demonstrated to show their support or lack of thereof for independence (yesterday was a bit of a turning point, as for the first time there was a huge demonstration in Barcelona against independence, although a number of demonstrators might have travelled from other places in Spain to join the demonstration). Which takes us to tomorrow (Tuesday). Originally the plan was to declare independence today, but the constitutional court in Spain (the highest court) did not allow it to go ahead. Supposedly, Catalan President Puigdemont will declare independence tomorrow, but whether he will dare to go ahead or in which terms he’ll do it remains to be seen. Now, in any other country this should not have gone this far. I believe that a legal referendum should have been negotiated a while ago. I also believe that independence would have lost and we would all be in a much better position. But I believe doing things ‘por cojones’ is in our nature. Political rivals become enemies and the idea of negotiation and listening to the other’s point of view is not very widespread. What is going to happen tomorrow, I don’t know. I have lived outside Spain for about 15 years now, and seeing it from abroad, together with my expat Catalan friends, is heartbreaking. At one point the common sense will return. It has to. Let’s just hope that the current climate of confrontation doesn’t cause any irreparable damage.




Thank you very much for your explanation, I understood that perfectly. I'll watch Tuesday for what happens. I can only imagine how it must feel to watch all this taking place in your homeland from afar. Hoping for some type of compromise.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #12 posted 10/09/17 10:04pm

TweetyV6

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Silvertongue7 said:

Let’s just hope that the current climate of confrontation doesn’t cause any irreparable damage.


I do believe that this point is already passed when the referendum was frustrated and escalated into the voilence from the Guardia Civil.

I sure hope that the Catalans will split from Spain as it will put a bomb under the whole EU construct, which is getting more and more of a monster.

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Reply #13 posted 10/10/17 1:55am

Lianachan

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The conduct of the Spanish state in the suppression of the Catalan referendum on self determination has been utterly disgusting. A return to the old days of facism.

[Edited 10/10/17 2:30am]

A-nis bidh fios aig daoine nuair a tha mi a 'mionnachadh aig dhaibh.
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Reply #14 posted 10/10/17 11:11am

Silvertongue7

In the end Puigdemont declared independence and immediately suspended it / postponed it, calling for dialogue.
What this is going to mean in practical terms, we shall see. It might mean more of the same, the beginning of negotiations with Madrid or the collapse of the Catalan government if the far left party that supports them withdraws their support (leading to a new regional election).
Hopefully with one of the sides sort of backing down (in practical terms at least) the Spanish government will make a move towards trying to find some understanding. But as I said yesterday, we are not the best at respecting or trying to understand each other...
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Reply #15 posted 10/10/17 11:37am

morningsong

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So is the Spainish government being held hostage then?

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
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“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #16 posted 10/10/17 12:16pm

Silvertongue7

morningsong said:

So is the Spainish government being held hostage then?


Not really. I understand it as the Catalan government not daring to go ahead. In the last few days a lot of big companies have fled the region, and there has not been any international recognition for the result of the referendum (there has been popular international support after the shameful events involving the police and the guardia civil on the day of the vote, but obviously no country has recognised the result of a vote called by a government which had no authority to call it and the rest of the circumstances that surrounded it). I believe that this was as far as the Catalan government could get without descending into total chaos.
There is of course the issue that a huge part of the population in Catalonia want independence and that feeling is not going to go. So the Spanish government, which in a way have ‘won’ (but not really) now should start some sort of negotiation.
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Reply #17 posted 10/10/17 6:07pm

poppys

Silvertongue7 said:

morningsong said:

So is the Spainish government being held hostage then?

Not really. I understand it as the Catalan government not daring to go ahead. In the last few days a lot of big companies have fled the region, and there has not been any international recognition for the result of the referendum (there has been popular international support after the shameful events involving the police and the guardia civil on the day of the vote, but obviously no country has recognised the result of a vote called by a government which had no authority to call it and the rest of the circumstances that surrounded it). I believe that this was as far as the Catalan government could get without descending into total chaos. There is of course the issue that a huge part of the population in Catalonia want independence and that feeling is not going to go. So the Spanish government, which in a way have ‘won’ (but not really) now should start some sort of negotiation.

Thank you for all the insight you've provided here, Silvertongue7. When I heard the new developments on NPR today, I actually had a clue about what they were saying.

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Reply #18 posted 10/10/17 10:27pm

Silvertongue7

poppys said:



Silvertongue7 said:


morningsong said:

So is the Spainish government being held hostage then?



Not really. I understand it as the Catalan government not daring to go ahead. In the last few days a lot of big companies have fled the region, and there has not been any international recognition for the result of the referendum (there has been popular international support after the shameful events involving the police and the guardia civil on the day of the vote, but obviously no country has recognised the result of a vote called by a government which had no authority to call it and the rest of the circumstances that surrounded it). I believe that this was as far as the Catalan government could get without descending into total chaos. There is of course the issue that a huge part of the population in Catalonia want independence and that feeling is not going to go. So the Spanish government, which in a way have ‘won’ (but not really) now should start some sort of negotiation.

Thank you for all the insight you've provided here, Silvertongue7. When I heard the new developments on NPR today, I actually had a clue about what they were saying.


Oh dear, I hope I’m not your only source of information on the topic - way too much responsibility!

razz
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Reply #19 posted 10/11/17 7:10am

poppys

Silvertongue7 said:

poppys said:

Thank you for all the insight you've provided here, Silvertongue7. When I heard the new developments on NPR today, I actually had a clue about what they were saying.

Oh dear, I hope I’m not your only source of information on the topic - way too much responsibility! razz

No. I read a lot. cool

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Reply #20 posted 10/11/17 8:11am

Lianachan

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Fresh BS from Spain. Difficult to accuse a government of being "anti-democratic" so soon after sending in a paramilitary force to beat up people who were trying to vote, but that's facism for you.

A-nis bidh fios aig daoine nuair a tha mi a 'mionnachadh aig dhaibh.
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Reply #21 posted 10/11/17 10:44am

PANDURITO

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You're a nationalist, aren't you?

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Reply #22 posted 10/11/17 12:06pm

Lianachan

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I don't know enough about Catalonia to have a view about their independence, but I think self determination for a nation is normal, and it's a right of the population to be able to have a peaceful vote on it. Let those who oppose it vote against it.

A-nis bidh fios aig daoine nuair a tha mi a 'mionnachadh aig dhaibh.
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Reply #23 posted 10/11/17 12:34pm

morningsong

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I had assumed it was like when one of our states, primarily Texas and California, threatens to separate, but Catalona has it's own president, as well as it's own elections, plus participates in Spain's elections. Complicated system.

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Reply #24 posted 10/11/17 6:09pm

PANDURITO

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morningsong said:

I had assumed it was like when one of our states, primarily Texas and California, threatens to separate, but Catalona has it's own president, as well as it's own elections, plus participates in Spain's elections. Complicated system.

Texas and California have their own Governor, their own gubernatorial election plus participate in USA's elections.

Not that different confused


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Reply #25 posted 10/11/17 6:18pm

morningsong

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PANDURITO said:

morningsong said:

I had assumed it was like when one of our states, primarily Texas and California, threatens to separate, but Catalona has it's own president, as well as it's own elections, plus participates in Spain's elections. Complicated system.

Texas and California have their own Governor, their own gubernatorial election plus participate in USA's elections.

Not that different confused




That's what I was wondering, but wasn't sure.


“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
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“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #26 posted 10/13/17 11:39am

morningsong

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People rally in Barcelona for Spain's National Day Thursday, shouting against the independence of Catalonia.


Did he or didn't he declare independence? That is the question in Spain.

The answer has huge implications for what the Spanish government does next, and how the country's relatively young democracy — indeed, possibly even the whole European Union — might stay intact.

The "he" in question is Catalan separatist leader...Puigdemont, who delivered an ambiguous speech Tuesday to his regional parliament in Barcelona in which he appeared to declare independence from Spain — and then abruptly took it back. He also signed a document afterward which read, in part: "We constitute a Catalan republic, as an independent and sovereign state..."

Some separatists cheered and claimed victory. Others said Puigdemont's words fell short.

Many were simply confused.

Me for one.

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“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #27 posted 10/14/17 10:38am

NorthC

Puidgemont backed down. He realized that declaring and independent state that wasn't going to be recognized by anone wouldn't do anybody any good.
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Reply #28 posted 10/14/17 11:27am

PANDURITO

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No one knows for sure what Puigdemont meant. He has until Monday morning to clarify his position.

If he has in fact backed down, negotiations will start with the Spanish Government. If he has declared Independence, Spanish Government might legally take over running Catalonia (they are an autonomous region now)

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Reply #29 posted 10/17/17 10:09am

morningsong

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Looks like negotiating means putting people in jail.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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